20 mph....

[Guy Smiley]

I've been a life time rev head... I loved cars so much I trained as a mechanic when I left school. I'm all over the technical complexity that leads to the sort of glory that is a Ferrari V12 on the over run, a slight over steer on a damp road under engine braking, the little lift and cross you get over a turning crest under more power than is advisable and all the rest....

but fuck cars in built areas. We devote so much space and so many resources to catering to car use and imprison ourselves within a tiny proportion of that space while begrudging any attempt to make it safer or cleaner. We live in our little box houses separated off from our fellow humans, we scuttle from inside that to inside the car where we seal ourselves off from discerning other drivers as fellow humans and reduce them to the status of simple problems that should be eradicated for having the temerity to use the space we desire, we distract ourselves with infotainment and phones while we hurtle about like crazed asteroids and we work hard to avoid any contact with our natural surroundings as much as we possibly can...

and we whinge about crime and social problems because someone else should fix it.

[petej]

20mph is fine in an electric. Makes it better to cycle. The countries public health would be much better if people took short journeys by foot or on a bike.

The 50mph limit on the M4 through Newport just makes sense as it was rare it was 70 with the variable speed limit at anyrate.

Pretty sure there have been studies showing that cars make us miserable.

[TB63]

50 mph extension on the M4 over the bridge and up to near as dammit the Neath junction makes no sense at all...No houses around, and going the other way, towards Bridgend, it passes Port Talbot steelworks FFS. Let's slow you down to decrease pollution....

[dpedin]

Meh, it’s been like this in Edinburgh for ages and it’s fine, in fact, I like it.

Could do with more enforcement but I don’t really see the issue in a city

It's got to be pretty much essential in a city with narrow roads and many, many tourists.

I do find it a bit irritating when used on roads outside of urban settings - the roads leading up to and past Peebles are 20 miles an hour limits, and I sometimes need to go that way to visit family. I could do without crawling along at 20 past fields when I've got a 9 hour journey. I do note that the 20 is mostly past hamlets, and they can't just chop and change between 60 and 20 every few hundred yards, but it does drag!

I have no issue with 20mph speed limits in Embra, it works fine and if it saves a few lives and serious injuries then all the better. It doesnt really impact on travel times at all around town and there is no noticeable difference as far as I am concerned. In reality it probably slows those who would be doing 35mph in a 30 limit to 25-28mph in a 20 limit. It probably adds a minute or two max onto any journey. If you have a car and can afford to run one around town then you are lucky. In Embra I suspect the average speed of a car in town is no better than what a horse drawn carriage achieved 100 years ago! I honestly dont understand what all the moaning is about, it works, it saves lives and serious injury.

[Slick]

I've been a life time rev head... I loved cars so much I trained as a mechanic when I left school. I'm all over the technical complexity that leads to the sort of glory that is a Ferrari V12 on the over run, a slight over steer on a damp road under engine braking, the little lift and cross you get over a turning crest under more power than is advisable and all the rest....

but fuck cars in built areas. We devote so much space and so many resources to catering to car use and imprison ourselves within a tiny proportion of that space while begrudging any attempt to make it safer or cleaner. We live in our little box houses separated off from our fellow humans, we scuttle from inside that to inside the car where we seal ourselves off from discerning other drivers as fellow humans and reduce them to the status of simple problems that should be eradicated for having the temerity to use the space we desire, we distract ourselves with infotainment and phones while we hurtle about like crazed asteroids and we work hard to avoid any contact with our natural surroundings as much as we possibly can...

and we whinge about crime and social problems because someone else should fix it.

Bravo

[TB63]

Meh, it’s been like this in Edinburgh for ages and it’s fine, in fact, I like it.

Could do with more enforcement but I don’t really see the issue in a city

It's got to be pretty much essential in a city with narrow roads and many, many tourists.

I do find it a bit irritating when used on roads outside of urban settings - the roads leading up to and past Peebles are 20 miles an hour limits, and I sometimes need to go that way to visit family. I could do without crawling along at 20 past fields when I've got a 9 hour journey. I do note that the 20 is mostly past hamlets, and they can't just chop and change between 60 and 20 every few hundred yards, but it does drag!

I have no issue with 20mph speed limits in Embra, it works fine and if it saves a few lives and serious injuries then all the better. It doesnt really impact on travel times at all around town and there is no noticeable difference as far as I am concerned. In reality it probably slows those who would be doing 35mph in a 30 limit to 25-28mph in a 20 limit. It probably adds a minute or two max onto any journey. If you have a car and can afford to run one around town then you are lucky. In Embra I suspect the average speed of a car in town is no better than what a horse drawn carriage achieved 100 years ago! I honestly dont understand what all the moaning is about, it works, it saves lives and serious injury.

I've lived and worked in major cities and towns all around the SE of England and yes, if your in a major city or town where traffic daily crawls around at a snails pace, 20mph zones make sense. Llanelli is not that, no nose to tail crawling along, ever, it's a rural town. You drive through, no probs, if I want to get to the other side of town, even at peak times, I'll allow 10 mins max..

[Dan54]

Do you guys not have bypasses?

How will I get to the pub?

More importantly how will you get home. By passes are a pain to work out when you pissed aren't they?

[fishfoodie]

I've been a life time rev head... I loved cars so much I trained as a mechanic when I left school. I'm all over the technical complexity that leads to the sort of glory that is a Ferrari V12 on the over run, a slight over steer on a damp road under engine braking, the little lift and cross you get over a turning crest under more power than is advisable and all the rest....

but fuck cars in built areas. We devote so much space and so many resources to catering to car use and imprison ourselves within a tiny proportion of that space while begrudging any attempt to make it safer or cleaner. We live in our little box houses separated off from our fellow humans, we scuttle from inside that to inside the car where we seal ourselves off from discerning other drivers as fellow humans and reduce them to the status of simple problems that should be eradicated for having the temerity to use the space we desire, we distract ourselves with infotainment and phones while we hurtle about like crazed asteroids and we work hard to avoid any contact with our natural surroundings as much as we possibly can...

and we whinge about crime and social problems because someone else should fix it.

I always have that statistic, which must be a couple of decades old at this stage, that average journey speeds in London, are slower now than they were in the 18th/19th century. That's why cars don't work in cities !

[Guy Smiley]

[Slick]

Most car journeys are non essential, if it encourages car owners to think it is quicker to get where they are going on a pushbike, great.

Also the difference between hitting someone at 30 and 20, to that person is massive.

Wish I was hit at 20mph.
Maybe only one disc would be shot, instead of 3..and the shaking in excruciating pain would be manageable by the use of a couple of paracetamol.

It really irks me that after 13 years of Tory devestation and austerity, and ruin....motorists are outraged when asked to drop their speed by 10mph and drive a bit more safely, to the extent the lot of the motoring lobby in England, GB News (and moaning motorists in Wales) are calling for Mark Drakefords head and the dissolution of the Welsh Assembly.

This fucking country.

Isn’t it something like 60% of car journeys are under 2 miles?

[Sandstorm]

Do you guys not have bypasses?

How will I get to the pub?

More importantly how will you get home. By passes are a pain to work out when you pissed aren't they?

I want my self-driving car. I’ll drive to the pub, have 4 pints and then sit in the back while AI takes the wheel home.

[fishfoodie]

How will I get to the pub?

More importantly how will you get home. By passes are a pain to work out when you pissed aren't they?

I want my self-driving car. I’ll drive to the pub, have 4 pints and then sit in the back while AI takes the wheel home.

Whenever someone says this it reminds me of a story an Uncle of mine used to tell about when he was working in the family bar, during the big races week in Galway; & a guy that used to park his donkey & cart in the yard, & after a long days drinking, he'd sit on the cart, & clip the donkey & the donkey would just take off, & he'd flop backwards on the cart, because the donkey was hungry, & knew the way home !

[Dan54]

How will I get to the pub?

More importantly how will you get home. By passes are a pain to work out when you pissed aren't they?

I want my self-driving car. I’ll drive to the pub, have 4 pints and then sit in the back while AI takes the wheel home.

[Biffer]

It's got to be pretty much essential in a city with narrow roads and many, many tourists.

I do find it a bit irritating when used on roads outside of urban settings - the roads leading up to and past Peebles are 20 miles an hour limits, and I sometimes need to go that way to visit family. I could do without crawling along at 20 past fields when I've got a 9 hour journey. I do note that the 20 is mostly past hamlets, and they can't just chop and change between 60 and 20 every few hundred yards, but it does drag!

I have no issue with 20mph speed limits in Embra, it works fine and if it saves a few lives and serious injuries then all the better. It doesnt really impact on travel times at all around town and there is no noticeable difference as far as I am concerned. In reality it probably slows those who would be doing 35mph in a 30 limit to 25-28mph in a 20 limit. It probably adds a minute or two max onto any journey. If you have a car and can afford to run one around town then you are lucky. In Embra I suspect the average speed of a car in town is no better than what a horse drawn carriage achieved 100 years ago! I honestly dont understand what all the moaning is about, it works, it saves lives and serious injury.

I've lived and worked in major cities and towns all around the SE of England and yes, if your in a major city or town where traffic daily crawls around at a snails pace, 20mph zones make sense. Llanelli is not that, no nose to tail crawling along, ever, it's a rural town. You drive through, no probs, if I want to get to the other side of town, even at peak times, I'll allow 10 mins max..

And why is that more important that making a safe environment for pedestrians and other road users?

[dpedin]

I have no issue with 20mph speed limits in Embra, it works fine and if it saves a few lives and serious injuries then all the better. It doesnt really impact on travel times at all around town and there is no noticeable difference as far as I am concerned. In reality it probably slows those who would be doing 35mph in a 30 limit to 25-28mph in a 20 limit. It probably adds a minute or two max onto any journey. If you have a car and can afford to run one around town then you are lucky. In Embra I suspect the average speed of a car in town is no better than what a horse drawn carriage achieved 100 years ago! I honestly dont understand what all the moaning is about, it works, it saves lives and serious injury.

I've lived and worked in major cities and towns all around the SE of England and yes, if your in a major city or town where traffic daily crawls around at a snails pace, 20mph zones make sense. Llanelli is not that, no nose to tail crawling along, ever, it's a rural town. You drive through, no probs, if I want to get to the other side of town, even at peak times, I'll allow 10 mins max..

And why is that more important that making a safe environment for pedestrians and other road users?

Exactly! If it takes 10mins max to get from one side of Llanelli to the other then the 20mph limit means it will mean 1 or 2 mins more max so I dont honestly see what the problem is. If all the research say this saves lives and serious injury then basically you are not willing to give up a minute per journey to do so? That's a bit selfish aint it?

[inactionman]

I have no issue with 20mph speed limits in Embra, it works fine and if it saves a few lives and serious injuries then all the better. It doesnt really impact on travel times at all around town and there is no noticeable difference as far as I am concerned. In reality it probably slows those who would be doing 35mph in a 30 limit to 25-28mph in a 20 limit. It probably adds a minute or two max onto any journey. If you have a car and can afford to run one around town then you are lucky. In Embra I suspect the average speed of a car in town is no better than what a horse drawn carriage achieved 100 years ago! I honestly dont understand what all the moaning is about, it works, it saves lives and serious injury.

I've lived and worked in major cities and towns all around the SE of England and yes, if your in a major city or town where traffic daily crawls around at a snails pace, 20mph zones make sense. Llanelli is not that, no nose to tail crawling along, ever, it's a rural town. You drive through, no probs, if I want to get to the other side of town, even at peak times, I'll allow 10 mins max..

And why is that more important that making a safe environment for pedestrians and other road users?

I think the contention is to do with blanket - ideally, we'd bespoke all speed limits on all roads expressly to the safety characteristics. As it is, we've pretty coarse grades and it means they're too lax in some contexts and too stringent in others - if we try not to lose sight of the fact that roads are a means of communication. Previously 30mph was too fast for many built up areas, but by the same token 20mph is not required in others. No-one disputes 30mph is too fast on Princes Street, but would that be required on places out on Ferry Road.

I've always wondered, in an age of digital control, whether we could do this bespoke.safety related speed restriction more widely on a street by street basis so we could even tie in time of day (e.g. heavily reduced during school runs). But I think ultimately we'd just end up confusing people.

[Torquemada 1420]

Living in an area where it was trialled, it's been a pain in the arse tbh, though mostly ignored or enforced. Now it's been rolled out it's a fucking nightmare.. More streets added. 40 down to 30 has been snuck in also.. I'm changing between 2nd and 3rd constantly, how the fuck can that reduce pollution?
To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30..

Actually, it possibly increases pollution because
a) There are optimal running temperatures for stuff like catalytic converters and low speeds are less effective.
b) Obviously combustion engines have better mpg at some speeds than others: and 20 is not it.
c) Meantime, the traffic is spending longer in the zone polluting it at these suboptimal levels of a) and b).

It's not about pollution, it's about safety.

Really.

So let's examine that. 35 tonne lorry doing 30 mph has the same momentum as a 1 tonne car doing?

Spoiler

Show

1,050 mph

So artics are allowed the same speed in towns but speed limits are about safety?

Now, I'm not going to bore or confuse with full detail of additional factors such as
- coefficients of friction
- quality of road surface
- incline of road surface
- weather conditions
- temperature
- car safety features: ABS etc
- driver capability

Ultimately, arbitrary speed limits are nonsense but they are there because generally, people are thick and selfish plus the UK hands out driving licences like confetti to anyone who can say the word "car". However, there
are optimums even using speed limits as a blunt tool and 30 mph is not it with the exceptions of high risk areas such as in front of schools (which I will return to**) and pedestrianised areas shared with vehicles.

** Where the biggest breachers of safety (parking on double yellows, speeding, stopping in the middle of the road) are ALWAYS the f**king parents themselves.

[TB63]

I should say, 10 mins to cross town is with the 20mph limit in place, it's the needless extension to very low pedestrian areas from 30 to 20, used to be 20 mins to Pembrey, now it's 35...

[Biffer]

I should say, 10 mins to cross town is with the 20mph limit in place, it's the needless extension to very low pedestrian areas from 30 to 20, used to be 20 mins to Pembrey, now it's 35...

Lowering the speed limit by 33% in parts of your journey increases the fourney time by 75%?

I smell bullshit.

[Biffer]

Actually, it possibly increases pollution because
a) There are optimal running temperatures for stuff like catalytic converters and low speeds are less effective.
b) Obviously combustion engines have better mpg at some speeds than others: and 20 is not it.
c) Meantime, the traffic is spending longer in the zone polluting it at these suboptimal levels of a) and b).

It's not about pollution, it's about safety.

Really.

So let's examine that. 35 tonne lorry doing 30 mph has the same momentum as a 1 tonne car doing?

Spoiler

Show

1,050 mph

So artics are allowed the same speed in towns but speed limits are about safety?

Now, I'm not going to bore or confuse with full detail of additional factors such as
- coefficients of friction
- quality of road surface
- incline of road surface
- weather conditions
- temperature
- car safety features: ABS etc
- driver capability

Ultimately, arbitrary speed limits are nonsense but they are there because generally, people are thick and selfish plus the UK hands out driving licences like confetti to anyone who can say the word "car". However, there
are optimums even using speed limits as a blunt tool and 30 mph is not it with the exceptions of high risk areas such as in front of schools (which I will return to**) and pedestrianised areas shared with vehicles.

** Where the biggest breachers of safety (parking on double yellows, speeding, stopping in the middle of the road) are ALWAYS the f**king parents themselves.

Pointless whataboutery.

[inactionman]

I should say, 10 mins to cross town is with the 20mph limit in place, it's the needless extension to very low pedestrian areas from 30 to 20, used to be 20 mins to Pembrey, now it's 35...

Lowering the speed limit by 33% in parts of your journey increases the fourney time by 75%?

I smell bullshit.

I'd suspect there's a degree of truth, as people who would previously creep up near 40ish in a 30 will likely stick to the 20 after the rule changes. And, given it's a 20, not much overtaking and usually pretty slow pulling away.

I'd also suspect speeds to creep backup again in pretty short order.

[David in Gwent]

Exactly. It's absolutely fine.

And it demonstrably saves lives.

Yep, I half get any annoyance if it's in place for for wider, non residential stretches.

In most cases though it just seems like another thing to get angry about. I live on a busy residential street that has previously been put down from 30 to 20. With young kids, I'm far happier having the majority of traffic going through at 20 - 25 rather than 30 - 35. Stopping distance of a car halves at 20 compared to 30 iirc.

Yep. Fatality rate at 30mph hitting a pedestrian is one in five. At 20mph it's one in twenty.

When not stop there? surely if we cared about deaths on the road we should be driving at 10mph?

[TB63]

To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30..

[Sandstorm]

To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30..

Which Party donor has the contract to manufacture and put up thousands of new 20 mph signs across Wales?

[David in Gwent]

To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30..

Which Party donor has the contract to manufacture and put up thousands of new 20 mph signs across Wales?

Which Labour party donor?

[Slick]

Yep, I half get any annoyance if it's in place for for wider, non residential stretches.

In most cases though it just seems like another thing to get angry about. I live on a busy residential street that has previously been put down from 30 to 20. With young kids, I'm far happier having the majority of traffic going through at 20 - 25 rather than 30 - 35. Stopping distance of a car halves at 20 compared to 30 iirc.

Yep. Fatality rate at 30mph hitting a pedestrian is one in five. At 20mph it's one in twenty.

When not stop there? surely if we cared about deaths on the road we should be driving at 10mph?

Silly, silly comment

[TB63]

To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30..

Which Party donor has the contract to manufacture and put up thousands of new 20 mph signs across Wales?

£32 mill........

[Torquemada 1420]

I have no issue with 20mph speed limits in Embra, it works fine and if it saves a few lives and serious injuries then all the better. It doesnt really impact on travel times at all around town and there is no noticeable difference as far as I am concerned.

No. And I was about to point out that would be the case in Ed because during much of the time, the traffic in the centre means that is so. Was even worse for the years of the tram construction debacle.

However, on the bit in bold, then why not save a few more and ban all transport in the city?

[Torquemada 1420]

Militant cyclists are also twats. "You should cycle to work" Like fuck am I riding 13 miles to work on a bike on a dual carriageway in the pissing rain and then doing the return journey in the dark, and both ways arriving lathered in sweat and road grime.

A pet hate of mine.

In Milton Keynes, the one decent bit of design in the place was a network or "redways". These are tarmac (coloured red.........) routes which cover the entire place and mean that mostly cyclists never need to cross a road (bridges and underpasses), let alone cycle along a road. Instead, vast numbers of them insist on using the roads. "It's my legal right"........... "to endanger myself and maybe die". The MAMILs are the uber c**ts of the lot. They are ecstatic now they are allowed to ride 20 abreast down local country lanes in convoys. Even the farmers hate the c**ts now.

Streets closed off for half the day for footie, rugby, cricket, running etc. OK

A few people cycling on a country lane delaying you by 2 minutes, absolute cunts

You are the Obi Wan of false equivalences.

In the examples you cite, those are decisions taken by authorities (with whom you can contest or represent your dissent to in whatever democratic manner you desire) ostensibly in the public's interest i.e. the greater overall good. Further, they are occasional.

[Torquemada 1420]

I was brought up in a New Town where the designer (Frederick Gibberd) also put a fair bit of thought into this - he kept the old roads/lanes as fully closed off cycle networks and superimposed a grid-based road system. I could ride a bike from my old house in the original village all the way to the new town centre (about 3 miles) by riding down cycle tracks, most of them surrounded by woods and with underpasses to avoid going on the main roads

It was excellent - for a kid just riding his bike to a mate's house or to school.

The issue is, the paths are shared, so if you want to blast along you can't really use them in that way unless you want to maim a child or get clotheslined by a dog's lead. That's why many cyclists will use a road despite there being a cycle track. They are allowed to do this, and it's ultimately safer if they're going 20mph+

I do agree there are dickhead cyclists - funnily enough, some people are just dickheads regardless of their mode of transport.

On the face of it, this is an entirely plausible and reasonable argument (and one you won't be surprised to hear that we hear a lot here (hear, hear, here) too).

However, I can't help feeling it really reads as
- we create a safe environment for cyclists and pedestrians which sometimes would require the cyclists to moderate their behaviour in the interests of wider safety
BUT
- cyclists aren't prepared to accept that and instead want to take to the roads and then expect motorists to afford them exactly the same moderation in behaviour they, themselves are not prepared to give to pedestrians?

[Margin__Walker]

I have no issue with 20mph speed limits in Embra, it works fine and if it saves a few lives and serious injuries then all the better. It doesnt really impact on travel times at all around town and there is no noticeable difference as far as I am concerned.

No. And I was about to point out that would be the case in Ed because during much of the time, the traffic in the centre means that is so. Was even worse for the years of the tram construction debacle.

However, on the bit in bold, then why not save a few more and ban all transport in the city?

Because that would be stupid, as you well know so it's a pretty immature line of argument.

Life's about risk management and striking a good balance. Commerce and quality of life isn't going to grind to a halt with 20mph limits in built up areas and there will likely be a demonstrable reduction of death and serious injury on roads.

[Torquemada 1420]

I have no issue with 20mph speed limits in Embra, it works fine and if it saves a few lives and serious injuries then all the better. It doesnt really impact on travel times at all around town and there is no noticeable difference as far as I am concerned.

No. And I was about to point out that would be the case in Ed because during much of the time, the traffic in the centre means that is so. Was even worse for the years of the tram construction debacle.

However, on the bit in bold, then why not save a few more and ban all transport in the city?

Because that would be stupid, as you well know so it's a pretty immature line of argument.

Life's about risk management and striking a good balance. Commerce and quality of life isn't going to grind to a halt with 20mph limits in built up areas and there will likely be a demonstrable reduction of death and serious injury on roads.

Why?

This whole reduction in speed is reductio ad absurdum and you've shown no data to indicate that lives saved in going from 20mph to 10mph aren't greater than 30mph to 20mph.

[Torquemada 1420]

It's not about pollution, it's about safety.

Really.

So let's examine that. 35 tonne lorry doing 30 mph has the same momentum as a 1 tonne car doing?

Spoiler

Show

1,050 mph

So artics are allowed the same speed in towns but speed limits are about safety?

Now, I'm not going to bore or confuse with full detail of additional factors such as
- coefficients of friction
- quality of road surface
- incline of road surface
- weather conditions
- temperature
- car safety features: ABS etc
- driver capability

Ultimately, arbitrary speed limits are nonsense but they are there because generally, people are thick and selfish plus the UK hands out driving licences like confetti to anyone who can say the word "car". However, there
are optimums even using speed limits as a blunt tool and 30 mph is not it with the exceptions of high risk areas such as in front of schools (which I will return to**) and pedestrianised areas shared with vehicles.

** Where the biggest breachers of safety (parking on double yellows, speeding, stopping in the middle of the road) are ALWAYS the f**king parents themselves.

Pointless whataboutery.

In other words you either don't understand the arguments or are incapable of refuting them.

Answer the question. Why are artics (or buses) permitted the same speeds in built up areas as cars IF this is all about safety?

[Sandstorm]

I was brought up in a New Town where the designer (Frederick Gibberd) also put a fair bit of thought into this - he kept the old roads/lanes as fully closed off cycle networks and superimposed a grid-based road system. I could ride a bike from my old house in the original village all the way to the new town centre (about 3 miles) by riding down cycle tracks, most of them surrounded by woods and with underpasses to avoid going on the main roads

It was excellent - for a kid just riding his bike to a mate's house or to school.

The issue is, the paths are shared, so if you want to blast along you can't really use them in that way unless you want to maim a child or get clotheslined by a dog's lead. That's why many cyclists will use a road despite there being a cycle track. They are allowed to do this, and it's ultimately safer if they're going 20mph+

I do agree there are dickhead cyclists - funnily enough, some people are just dickheads regardless of their mode of transport.

On the face of it, this is an entirely plausible and reasonable argument (and one you won't be surprised to hear that we hear a lot here (hear, hear, here) too).

However, I can't help feeling it really reads as
- we create a safe environment for cyclists and pedestrians which sometimes would require the cyclists to moderate their behaviour in the interests of wider safety
BUT
- cyclists aren't prepared to accept that and instead want to take to the roads and then expect motorists to afford them exactly the same moderation in behaviour they, themselves are not prepared to give to pedestrians?

Yup. Happens where cyclists run red lights because they don't want to be held up, then angrily tell car drivers to slow down to pass them 2 abreast in the countryside.
"Being held up in your car for 30 secs is a big deal....?"


Everyone hates everyone else.

[Slick]

A pet hate of mine.

In Milton Keynes, the one decent bit of design in the place was a network or "redways". These are tarmac (coloured red.........) routes which cover the entire place and mean that mostly cyclists never need to cross a road (bridges and underpasses), let alone cycle along a road. Instead, vast numbers of them insist on using the roads. "It's my legal right"........... "to endanger myself and maybe die". The MAMILs are the uber c**ts of the lot. They are ecstatic now they are allowed to ride 20 abreast down local country lanes in convoys. Even the farmers hate the c**ts now.

Streets closed off for half the day for footie, rugby, cricket, running etc. OK

A few people cycling on a country lane delaying you by 2 minutes, absolute cunts

You are the Obi Wan of false equivalences.

In the examples you cite, those are decisions taken by authorities (with whom you can contest or represent your dissent to in whatever democratic manner you desire) ostensibly in the public's interest i.e. the greater overall good. Further, they are occasional.

My son would love that description

I don't think it's that false. Sporting events cause massive amounts of disruption. Every weekend there are hundreds of road closures for footie up and down the country, but a few cyclists out enjoying themselves are demonised for holding folk up for a few seconds.

I just find the anger towards cyclists so unhinged and disproportionate. Every single time I go out in the car I come across motorists doing really stupid shit that could literally kill someone. But some motorists get held up by seconds and go full tonto about a person on a bike who won't harm anyone but themselves and are often just doing what they are allowed to do.

Further, they are occasional

Well, quite. How often do you get held up on a country road by cyclists and how much longer does it make your journey?

[inactionman]

I was brought up in a New Town where the designer (Frederick Gibberd) also put a fair bit of thought into this - he kept the old roads/lanes as fully closed off cycle networks and superimposed a grid-based road system. I could ride a bike from my old house in the original village all the way to the new town centre (about 3 miles) by riding down cycle tracks, most of them surrounded by woods and with underpasses to avoid going on the main roads

It was excellent - for a kid just riding his bike to a mate's house or to school.

The issue is, the paths are shared, so if you want to blast along you can't really use them in that way unless you want to maim a child or get clotheslined by a dog's lead. That's why many cyclists will use a road despite there being a cycle track. They are allowed to do this, and it's ultimately safer if they're going 20mph+

I do agree there are dickhead cyclists - funnily enough, some people are just dickheads regardless of their mode of transport.

On the face of it, this is an entirely plausible and reasonable argument (and one you won't be surprised to hear that we hear a lot here (hear, hear, here) too).

However, I can't help feeling it really reads as
- we create a safe environment for cyclists and pedestrians which sometimes would require the cyclists to moderate their behaviour in the interests of wider safety
BUT
- cyclists aren't prepared to accept that and instead want to take to the roads and then expect motorists to afford them exactly the same moderation in behaviour they, themselves are not prepared to give to pedestrians?

It depends.

I used to ride around 24 miles each way to work (back in my less fat and creaky days) and much of that was on the sustrans Bath-Bristol cycle track where I could average 20mph+. On the bits on cyclepaths shared with pedestrians I'd be lucky to get over 10mph. I would frequently use the road instead. I thought that more considerate.

[Slick]

I was brought up in a New Town where the designer (Frederick Gibberd) also put a fair bit of thought into this - he kept the old roads/lanes as fully closed off cycle networks and superimposed a grid-based road system. I could ride a bike from my old house in the original village all the way to the new town centre (about 3 miles) by riding down cycle tracks, most of them surrounded by woods and with underpasses to avoid going on the main roads

It was excellent - for a kid just riding his bike to a mate's house or to school.

The issue is, the paths are shared, so if you want to blast along you can't really use them in that way unless you want to maim a child or get clotheslined by a dog's lead. That's why many cyclists will use a road despite there being a cycle track. They are allowed to do this, and it's ultimately safer if they're going 20mph+

I do agree there are dickhead cyclists - funnily enough, some people are just dickheads regardless of their mode of transport.

On the face of it, this is an entirely plausible and reasonable argument (and one you won't be surprised to hear that we hear a lot here (hear, hear, here) too).

However, I can't help feeling it really reads as
- we create a safe environment for cyclists and pedestrians which sometimes would require the cyclists to moderate their behaviour in the interests of wider safety
BUT
- cyclists aren't prepared to accept that and instead want to take to the roads and then expect motorists to afford them exactly the same moderation in behaviour they, themselves are not prepared to give to pedestrians?

Yup. Happens where cyclists run red lights because they don't want to be held up, then angrily tell car drivers to slow down to pass them 2 abreast in the countryside.
"Being held up in your car for 30 secs is a big deal....?"


Everyone hates everyone else.

Yeah, depressingly that's where we are.

In saying that, I'd be surprised if the it's the same people regularly running red lights that are out on a weekend doing rides in the country.

[Margin__Walker]

No. And I was about to point out that would be the case in Ed because during much of the time, the traffic in the centre means that is so. Was even worse for the years of the tram construction debacle.

However, on the bit in bold, then why not save a few more and ban all transport in the city?

Because that would be stupid, as you well know so it's a pretty immature line of argument.

Life's about risk management and striking a good balance. Commerce and quality of life isn't going to grind to a halt with 20mph limits in built up areas and there will likely be a demonstrable reduction of death and serious injury on roads.

Why?

This whole reduction in speed is reductio ad absurdum and you've shown no data to indicate that lives saved in going from 20mph to 10mph aren't greater than 30mph to 20mph.

Highlighted the relevant section for you Torq. 10mph would be safer still, but renders cars borderline pointless in towns. 20mph doesn't.

[Slick]

Because that would be stupid, as you well know so it's a pretty immature line of argument.

Life's about risk management and striking a good balance. Commerce and quality of life isn't going to grind to a halt with 20mph limits in built up areas and there will likely be a demonstrable reduction of death and serious injury on roads.

Why?

This whole reduction in speed is reductio ad absurdum and you've shown no data to indicate that lives saved in going from 20mph to 10mph aren't greater than 30mph to 20mph.

Highlighted the relevant section for you Torq. 10mph would be safer still, but renders cars borderline pointless in towns. 20mph doesn't.

Come on Torq, this is putting you in with DAC

[Torquemada 1420]

My son would love that description

I don't think it's that false. Sporting events cause massive amounts of disruption. Every weekend there are hundreds of road closures for footie up and down the country, but a few cyclists out enjoying themselves are demonised for holding folk up for a few seconds.

I just find the anger towards cyclists so unhinged and disproportionate. Every single time I go out in the car I come across motorists doing really stupid shit that could literally kill someone. But some motorists get held up by seconds and go full tonto about a person on a bike who won't harm anyone but themselves and are often just doing what they are allowed to do.

Further, they are occasional

Well, quite. How often do you get held up on a country road by cyclists and how much longer does it make your journey?

A few things here.
1) If you live near a football stadium, then it's the same as living near an airport: some inconveniences come with the territory and if you really hate it that much, live somewhere else (rarely have people lived there BEFORE the construction). For those just passing through, well, you do have the opportunity to plan in advance. BBC football schedule, local signage and your satnav will tell you often. I went to several games last season and it was a continual joke with my brother why people went shopping around the time at the end of the game and then got annoyed at being stuck in a Lidl car park: we always park a mile away and walk.

You can't plan when you might encounter the mass ranked of militant MAMILs.

2) Hell yeah. There are far more car drivers than cyclists and I'd argue the majority of them (i.e. at least half) should not be on the roads. As I stated earlier, the UK hands out driving licences like confetti. I will avoid an accident at least once a day (and my journey to work is only a few miles) because I've always driven with the assumption that every other driver is a moron and will do the least sensible thing when in my proximity.

But I hate them as much as I hate the militant MAMILs.

But, back to the point, I had no issue with cyclists riding single file on narrow roads as long as they left sensible gaps between themselves if they were out in large numbers. That is not what happened around here and this ludicrous move to allow them to ride n abreast and wherever they like in the lane is simply going to result in more of them being injured or killed. On my Saturday journey to Cranfield, due to the twisting nature of the roads, I will regularly be stuck for a mile at a time. I will wait: because I don't want MAMIL blood on my car or my conscience, but I can tell you very many won't. 2 weeks ago I was within a whisker of a full head-on as a p*ssed off driver decided to overtake a MAMIL convoy on a blind bend. Only avoided because I know the road and the hedge had just been cut so I saw his roof coming.