Leinster v Saracens - European Champions Cup

[Tichtheid]

Good game, Sarries worth the win with some huge performances- George, Itoje, Koch, Rhodes, both Vunipolas, Barritt, Goode and looking through Scottish eyes it was great to see Taylor fit and playing well

[PCPhil]

Just back from walk where I was listening to the match on my ear buds. Sounds like Sarries brought their A game to the first half and tackled like a wolfpack in the 2nd half.

[ASMO]

Just back from walk where I was listening to the match on my ear buds. Sounds like Sarries brought their A game to the first half and tackled like a wolfpack in the 2nd half.

You can't win games when your scrum is getting bummed

[Kawazaki]

The Premiership should be very proud of Saracens - half their team missing and they still went to Dublin and beat Leinster.

Money doesn't buy heart.

You don't do humility do you

Just recognising a team for what they are, not what they are perceived to be.

[ASMO]

The Premiership should be very proud of Saracens - half their team missing and they still went to Dublin and beat Leinster.

Money doesn't buy heart.

You don't do humility do you

Just recognising a team for what they are, not what they are perceived to be.

There is no perceiption, they were found guilty of cheating the cap and punished accordingly, move on

[Uncle fester]

Fücks sake Leinster. You had one job.

[Kawazaki]

You don't do humility do you

Just recognising a team for what they are, not what they are perceived to be.

There is no perceiption, they were found guilty of cheating the cap and punished accordingly, move on

The perception is that its the money that makes them good. It isn't. Never has been.

[Raggs]

Just recognising a team for what they are, not what they are perceived to be.

There is no perceiption, they were found guilty of cheating the cap and punished accordingly, move on

The perception is that its the money that makes them good. It isn't. Never has been.

That's bollocks. Even if every player they had was home grown, the number of high quality players held at once would still have only been possible by breaking the cap.

[ASMO]

There is no perceiption, they were found guilty of cheating the cap and punished accordingly, move on

The perception is that its the money that makes them good. It isn't. Never has been.

That's bollocks. Even if every player they had was home grown, the number of high quality players held at once would still have only been possible by breaking the cap.

You have greater strength in depth, you can afford to rest your marque players more = greater success, so yes it did help them be "good" BUT that takes NOTHING away from their performance today which was better than good, it was magnificent.

[Kawazaki]

There is no perceiption, they were found guilty of cheating the cap and punished accordingly, move on

The perception is that its the money that makes them good. It isn't. Never has been.

That's bollocks. Even if every player they had was home grown, the number of high quality players held at once would still have only been possible by breaking the cap.

Only 4 players out of 56 were on co-investment deals so it is possible. Don't criticise it - copy it. Be more like Saracens should be the objective. The standard of the Premiership without them will be significantly lower.

[Un Pilier]

Good game, Sarries worth the win with some huge performances- George, Itoje, Koch, Rhodes, both Vunipolas, Barritt, Goode and looking through Scottish eyes it was great to see Taylor fit and playing well

Yes, that was a fantastic effort and a highly enjoyable game of Rugby. It takes a lot of heart and belief to do that.

[Raggs]

No criticism of their performance. Just pointing out tripe of trying to say the money made no difference.

The perception is that its the money that makes them good. It isn't. Never has been.

That's bollocks. Even if every player they had was home grown, the number of high quality players held at once would still have only been possible by breaking the cap.

Only 4 players out of 56 were on co-investment deals so it is possible. Don't criticise it - copy it. Be more like Saracens should be the objective. The standard of the Premiership without them will be significantly lower.

Only 4 that we know of and could discover. Saracens refused to open their books. If that was it, why refuse? And those 4 were huge money players, allowing numerous other high quality prem players. Which then allows rotation etc which helps everything.

[Kawazaki]

If money does make a difference then it's marginal. Saracens just beat Leinster with 7 forwards missing from their ECC squad nominated in 2019, plus 5 backs including Farrell.

The point being if teams think money is the main differentiator between them and Saracens then they will remain at a fairly average to poor level to them in comparison.

[Ovals]

If money does make a difference then it's marginal. Saracens just beat Leinster with 7 forwards missing from their ECC squad nominated in 2019, plus 5 backs including Farrell.

The point being if teams think money is the main differentiator between them and Saracens then they will remain at a fairly average to poor level to them in comparison.

Money does make a difference - but, seeing as Leinster don't have to operate under a salary cap, it didn't make a difference in this instance.

[Bimbowomxn]

If money does make a difference then it's marginal. Saracens just beat Leinster with 7 forwards missing from their ECC squad nominated in 2019, plus 5 backs including Farrell.

The point being if teams think money is the main differentiator between them and Saracens then they will remain at a fairly average to poor level to them in comparison.

The very fact they can win without those 12 players shows money makes the difference.

[Kawazaki]

If money does make a difference then it's marginal. Saracens just beat Leinster with 7 forwards missing from their ECC squad nominated in 2019, plus 5 backs including Farrell.

The point being if teams think money is the main differentiator between them and Saracens then they will remain at a fairly average to poor level to them in comparison.

The very fact they can win without those 12 players shows money makes the difference.

I'll be sure to pass on your compliments to players like Wray, Barritt, Goode, Lewington, Swinson, Rhodes, Wigglesworth, Barrington etc etc who just helped beat Ireland, sorry Leinster. In Dublin.

[notfatcat]

The co-investment deals were only part of their cheating.

Apart from that I agree with Toga the pub bore. Sarries are clearly very well coached and have been for years, and the cheating probably made less difference than many people think IMO. Of course, success or not, they were continually cheating in a major way and it should be a stick to beat them with for a long time.

[Niegs]

Touching

[stemoc]

evil sarries did not let me down .. ON YA!

[Kawazaki]

Barnes article in the Sunday Times.

We have been here before. The favourites left floundering on the big occasion. The biggest occasion of them all, of course, was the World Cup final last November. England had beaten the All Blacks; were quite brilliant in doing so. South Africa did not stand a chance.

In this instance, Leinster had won 25 consecutive games since Saracens beat them in last season’s European Champions Cup final. And Saracens lost nearly half their side in the wake of the decision to strip England’s greatest ever team of Premiership status. The bookmakers made Leinster 4-1 ON.

Technique first: we did not take account of the scrum. That old, not particularly fashionable aspect of the game, the foundations on which the fancy stuff and the tactical kicking is based. South Africa smashed England from the start and stunned them, robbed them of their wits. Saracens did the same in Dublin. Vincent Koch starred from the bench in the World Cup final; this time he did untold damage from the kick-off.

There were Saracens heroes everywhere. But Koch was as critical as any. Like South Africa in the final, the English club were able to dominate territory with scrum penalties, the vast majority of them against the Irish loose-heads who were hammered from start to finish. Start to finish. Props do not go the full 80 any more. South Africa had two specialist front-row squads. Koch was part of the Springboks bomb squad off the bench.

Mako Vunipola was monumental. When the substitution sign came up after 67 incredible minutes he made his exhausted way off reluctantly. Koch was there, with Jamie George, at full time. Koch was there to win the turnover on Robbie Henshaw and enable Alex Goode to kick the first of his 19 points in the tenth minute.

He was there in the 32nd minute, getting over the ball with the hosts hammering their way towards the Saracens line. These were crucial point-accumulating and saving moments. And then there was the scrum. He demolished the veteran Irish international Cian Healey, splintering the loose-head from his fellow international hooker Sean Cronin again and again. Shades of Yokohama.

In the loose he did not stop for breath. A few minutes from the final whistle, statistics showed him having made 17 tackles. The same number as the all-encompassing Maro Itoje. As the 23 top-quality players of Leinster pressurised Saracens’ patched-up squad, the England lock redoubled his efforts. He was counterrucking and tackling, one within seconds of the other. One flattening of his likely Lions partner, James Ryan, was a tackle of some intent as to insist that there was only one man, only one team.

Two minutes into the second half, Leinster had the luxury of substituting the shocked Cronin and the battered Devin Toner. Ryan Baird is a young lock of rare promise as one rip from Billy Vunipola illustrated. Ronan Kelleher has been the talk of Irish rugby circles this season. The previously unbeaten 2020 Pro 14 champions have an immense bench. It was emptied early.

The difference between making tactical switches and changes when there is nothing left in the legs, as was the case with Michael Rose and the 37-year-old Richard Wigglesworth, is significant. The home side held a huge advantage. Club and international coaches will reiterate that there is no such thing as a 1-15 selection; that the game is won or lost on the day by 23.

Saracens had to overcome not just a team with 25 straight wins to their name but also the gathering pain as the lungs ache, as the heart races. This is where the essential heroism of Saracens stands tallest. The intangible, the ability to dig as deep as most of these players have ever had to go.

This is a club team packed with the biggest names in English rugby but club has never come second. It is a reality that their critics will not like to read in print but this was a day when Mark McCall’s men proved that there was always more to Saracens than monetary advantages.

This was a great win. It demands that those of us fortunate enough to witness it remember that heart and soul, spirit and an unbreakable bond between men can lead to peaks that seem insurmountable from the logical distance.

Yesterday we saw Saracens close up. We saw a scrum, a South African prop and a whole heap of heroes restore faith in the spirit of the sport. If Saracens did bring the sport into disrepute off the field, they atoned in Dublin.

Good to see that the much derided rugby journos still catch on faster than the know-it-alls in here.

[Kawazaki]

[ASMO]

Responding to your own posts? Shades of some else there.

[Kawazaki]

Responding to your own posts? Shades of some else there.

Nope, it was double post. Just being considerate as always.

[Tichtheid]

Seeing a tight head get such a write up would almost move you to tears

[Un Pilier]

If money does make a difference then it's marginal. Saracens just beat Leinster with 7 forwards missing from their ECC squad nominated in 2019, plus 5 backs including Farrell.

The point being if teams think money is the main differentiator between them and Saracens then they will remain at a fairly average to poor level to them in comparison.

There is more than a grain of truth in that. The spirit, organisation and application they show is way ahead of most other teams. Yes, they still have some first rate players but even with the disruption they have had to deal with, when they field weakened teams they are still recognisably Saracens.

As someone who has endured the decline of Leicester Tigers over the last how many years (They had a certain DNA too, once upon a time) I would be happy to agree that Saracens are about far more than the money. There must come a time to give them the opportunity to rebuild their reputation. Yesterday certainly did that process no harm.

[Un Pilier]

Seeing a tight head get such a write up would almost move you to tears

[walletoraccess]

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:56 am
Seeing a tight head get such a write up would almost move you to tears

But being the stoics of the team we will just give an approving nod of the head

[Deveron Boy]

[quote=ASMO post_id=31937 time=<a href="tel:1600590482">1600590482</a> user_id=51]
Responding to your own posts? Shades of some else there.

Nope, it was double post. Just being considerate as always.
[/quote]

Kawasaki - could you stick to one thread on this, posting here and in the ‘other place’ As Fruit and Nut means you are stinking both threads up and the adults would prefer to have a discussion on one of them?

[Kawazaki]

Having a different POV to you is not the same as 'stinking up'. If you enjoy reading the same old crap about Saracens only being good because of cheating blah blah blah over and over as the usual suspects give each other a reacharound then you'll still find plenty of it here and elsewhere.

HTH

[Un Pilier]

[quote=ASMO post_id=31937 time=<a href="tel:1600590482">1600590482</a> user_id=51]
Responding to your own posts? Shades of some else there.

Nope, it was double post. Just being considerate as always.

Kawasaki - could you stick to one thread on this, posting here and in the ‘other place’ As Fruit and Nut means you are stinking both threads up and the adults would prefer to have a discussion on one of them?
[/quote]

I’m happy to see an alternative point of view - don’t see it as stinking the thread up at all.

[PornDog]

Touching

No, his hands are clearly on his back!


Sarries clearly are a hell of a lot more than the money. The loyalty shown by so many of their players itself speaks volumes of the excellent culture they have cultivated. This in no way absolves them from their disgusting cheating ways - the cheating cunts!

[PornDog]

Having a different POV to you is not the same as 'stinking up'. If you enjoy reading the same old crap about Saracens only being good because of cheating blah blah blah over and over as the usual suspects give each other a reacharound then you'll still find plenty of it here and elsewhere.

HTH

Who is saying that? I don't think I've read that at all in the fall out of the weekends match. People have derided them, accurately I might ad, as cheating cunts, but I don't think anyone has seriously made the case that that is all they are. In fact, quite the opposite from my readings - everyone has begrudgingly been full of praise for the cheating cunts!

You on the other hand, keep bringing it up They are a team that has cheated its ass off over the last few years, on the back of that cheating they have built an exceptional rugby team. If you think people are going to forget the one any time in the near future because of the latter then you can give up now, because it aint going to happen. Hell Quins still get the occasional jibe and they cheated in one match, which they lost, ages ago, and they're shite!

So grow up and take your medicine and be happy that you support an excellent team.

[JM2K6]

If money does make a difference then it's marginal. Saracens just beat Leinster with 7 forwards missing from their ECC squad nominated in 2019, plus 5 backs including Farrell.

The point being if teams think money is the main differentiator between them and Saracens then they will remain at a fairly average to poor level to them in comparison.

The very fact they can win without those 12 players shows money makes the difference.

I'll be sure to pass on your compliments to players like Wray, Barritt, Goode, Lewington, Swinson, Rhodes, Wigglesworth, Barrington etc etc who just helped beat Ireland, sorry Leinster. In Dublin.

Wray - 250+ appearances for Sarries, basically ever-present
Barritt - club captain, 26 England caps, Lions tourist, 200+ Sarries appearances
Goode - nearing 300 Sarries appearances, 21 England caps
Lewington - London Irish's best player when you signed him, played tons of matches this season and last (where he scored 11 tries)
Swinson - 120 appearances for Newcastle, 137 for Glasgow, and 38 caps for Scotland
Rhodes - coming up to his century for Sarries, albeit injury prone. Frequently one of Sarries' best players when not injured
Wigglesworth - a title winner with Sale (156 appearances) before he joined Sarries (160+ appearances) and 33 England caps
Barrington - played 12 minutes.

If those are considered your reserve players then I can't quite work out how that's supposed to say that money isn't a big factor. Hugely experienced capped internationals who would command a pretty decent wage anywhere...

[ASMO]

An Exeter Sarries final would be delicious, the levels of spite would be epic, especially if Saracens won. Exeter however will need to up their game from yesterday, they looked pretty ordinary at times against Northampton

[PornDog]

Victors order of preference -

1. Exeter

• Toulouse

• Racing

• Saracens

Asmo - your numbered list thing doesn't work properly. I mean I don't care, but just in case you do I thought I'd mention it.

[Kawazaki]

The very fact they can win without those 12 players shows money makes the difference.

I'll be sure to pass on your compliments to players like Wray, Barritt, Goode, Lewington, Swinson, Rhodes, Wigglesworth, Barrington etc etc who just helped beat Ireland, sorry Leinster. In Dublin.

Wray - 250+ appearances for Sarries, basically ever-present
Barritt - club captain, 26 England caps, Lions tourist, 200+ Sarries appearances
Goode - nearing 300 Sarries appearances, 21 England caps
Lewington - London Irish's best player when you signed him, played tons of matches this season and last (where he scored 11 tries)
Swinson - 120 appearances for Newcastle, 137 for Glasgow, and 38 caps for Scotland
Rhodes - coming up to his century for Sarries, albeit injury prone. Frequently one of Sarries' best players when not injured
Wigglesworth - a title winner with Sale (156 appearances) before he joined Sarries (160+ appearances) and 33 England caps
Barrington - played 12 minutes.

If those are considered your reserve players then I can't quite work out how that's supposed to say that money isn't a big factor. Hugely experienced capped internationals who would command a pretty decent wage anywhere...

Wray - overlooked for an England cap despite being an 'ever present' in the highest performing English club in the last decade. Derided by you in favour of plodders like Robshaw.
Barritt - 32 years old with very high mileage, derided as slow, no distribution blah blah blah.
Goode - 32 years old, treated as a joke of a player, derided as slow, rubbish defence while utter dross like Brown preferred by you.
Lewington - never capped, never close to a cap. Joined Saracens to become a better player and win.
Swinson - 33 years old, never highly rated, even in Scotland. He'd retired to work in a garage ffs when Saracens offered him a 1-year contract.
Rhodes - 33 years old with very high mileage. Never close to a cap.
Wigglesworth - 37 years old ffs. Derided as past it in RWC2015 let alone 2019.
Barrington - played for Jersey before Saracens.

[Kawazaki]

An Exeter Sarries final would be delicious, the levels of spite would be epic, especially if Saracens won. Exeter however will need to up their game from yesterday, they looked pretty ordinary at times against Northampton

Their set-piece looked very vulnerable. Difficult to know if the Saracens scrum is now a world beater or if Leinster's is just poor. Saracens line-out is top-drawer though.

[JM2K6]

I'll be sure to pass on your compliments to players like Wray, Barritt, Goode, Lewington, Swinson, Rhodes, Wigglesworth, Barrington etc etc who just helped beat Ireland, sorry Leinster. In Dublin.

Wray - 250+ appearances for Sarries, basically ever-present
Barritt - club captain, 26 England caps, Lions tourist, 200+ Sarries appearances
Goode - nearing 300 Sarries appearances, 21 England caps
Lewington - London Irish's best player when you signed him, played tons of matches this season and last (where he scored 11 tries)
Swinson - 120 appearances for Newcastle, 137 for Glasgow, and 38 caps for Scotland
Rhodes - coming up to his century for Sarries, albeit injury prone. Frequently one of Sarries' best players when not injured
Wigglesworth - a title winner with Sale (156 appearances) before he joined Sarries (160+ appearances) and 33 England caps
Barrington - played 12 minutes.

If those are considered your reserve players then I can't quite work out how that's supposed to say that money isn't a big factor. Hugely experienced capped internationals who would command a pretty decent wage anywhere...

Wray - overlooked for an England cap despite being an 'ever present' in the highest performing English club in the last decade. Derided by you in favour of plodders like Robshaw.
Barritt - 32 years old with very high mileage, derided as slow, no distribution blah blah blah.
Goode - 32 years old, treated as a joke of a player, derided as slow, rubbish defence while utter dross like Brown preferred by you.
Lewington - never capped, never close to a cap. Joined Saracens to become a better player and win.
Swinson - 33 years old, never highly rated, even in Scotland. He'd retired to work in a garage ffs when Saracens offered him a 1-year contract.
Rhodes - 33 years old with very high mileage. Never close to a cap.
Wigglesworth - 37 years old ffs. Derided as past it in RWC2015 let alone 2019.
Barrington - played for Jersey before Saracens.

Sorry, what does any of that self-pitying whining have to do with the money? Those guys aren't cheap, and many of them are core players in your first XV. Plenty are internationals with loads of caps. Players don't suddenly take a huge paycut when they hit 30. Wigglesworth was one of the ones getting big money from Uncle Nige on the side

Swinson's "retirement" was a couple of weeks long, which is pretty funny.

[Kawazaki]

Wray - 250+ appearances for Sarries, basically ever-present
Barritt - club captain, 26 England caps, Lions tourist, 200+ Sarries appearances
Goode - nearing 300 Sarries appearances, 21 England caps
Lewington - London Irish's best player when you signed him, played tons of matches this season and last (where he scored 11 tries)
Swinson - 120 appearances for Newcastle, 137 for Glasgow, and 38 caps for Scotland
Rhodes - coming up to his century for Sarries, albeit injury prone. Frequently one of Sarries' best players when not injured
Wigglesworth - a title winner with Sale (156 appearances) before he joined Sarries (160+ appearances) and 33 England caps
Barrington - played 12 minutes.

If those are considered your reserve players then I can't quite work out how that's supposed to say that money isn't a big factor. Hugely experienced capped internationals who would command a pretty decent wage anywhere...

Wray - overlooked for an England cap despite being an 'ever present' in the highest performing English club in the last decade. Derided by you in favour of plodders like Robshaw.
Barritt - 32 years old with very high mileage, derided as slow, no distribution blah blah blah.
Goode - 32 years old, treated as a joke of a player, derided as slow, rubbish defence while utter dross like Brown preferred by you.
Lewington - never capped, never close to a cap. Joined Saracens to become a better player and win.
Swinson - 33 years old, never highly rated, even in Scotland. He'd retired to work in a garage ffs when Saracens offered him a 1-year contract.
Rhodes - 33 years old with very high mileage. Never close to a cap.
Wigglesworth - 37 years old ffs. Derided as past it in RWC2015 let alone 2019.
Barrington - played for Jersey before Saracens.

Sorry, what does any of that self-pitying whining have to do with the money? Those guys aren't cheap, and many of them are core players in your first XV. Plenty are internationals with loads of caps. Players don't suddenly take a huge paycut when they hit 30. Wigglesworth was one of the ones getting big money from Uncle Nige on the side

Swinson's "retirement" was a couple of weeks long, which is pretty funny.

Good to see you've finally revaluated the likes of Goode, Wray and Wigglesworth as now top players. A pity you've described them as quite the opposite when they were younger and in their prime.

No self-pitying either, Saracens still have something to win this season.

[duke]

Quins still have summat to win this season - happening tonight, not that it’s top table as trophies go but it’s still possible silverware

Bloody autocorrect