Stop voting for fucking Tories

[I like neeps]

Here is a pretty good summary of the tax issues re Rayner.

https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/02/29/rayner/

As always and according to this detailed analysis then what we don't know nor is out in the public space is what would determine what she may or may not have owed in CGT. If she had put a new kitchen or bathroom in the house then no tax liability basically. In reality, if she has taken proper tax advice, then she has probably been told she has put enough money into house refurb to cancel out any tax liability.

At the end of the day I cannot believe folk are worried about this, at worst a tax issue worth a few hundred, and believe the word of Ashcroft, a known dodgy Non Dom, probably tax dodger for c£100m and who has a reputation of telling ' unsubstantiated stories' in previous publications. If this is the 'dirt' they think they have on the Labour leadership and are going all in on it then they really are shitting themselves about their election chances and are dredging the bottom of the barrel for shit to throw at a working class woman made good! I think this media bullying and rich posh men going after working class girl is rebounding on them - publishing details of her children is beyond most folks tolerance. They are dead old men walking and shitting themselves as they know Labour will come after them and their tax dodging, PPE scandal, gravy train public contracts, etc.

Keir Starmer should bin Rayner under the guise of we got rid of our tax diddler, the Tories should too.

(They also don't get on so it would be helpful there, just replace her with someone in Rayner's faction and bobs your uncle).

[petej]

Meanwhile why hasn't William Wragg resigned? Why didnt he report this scam to the police immediately? Why hasn't he had the whip withdrawn? Who are the other Tories implicated in the scandal? What are the police doing about this? Why did Hunt call him courageous when he clearly responded badly to the blackmail? who else sent dick pics to the caller? Has anyone in the press got copies of the pics?

This is the story the Tories are really, really desperate to stop the press exploring in detail!!!

From a security perspective that is bloody awful. Though accepting cash from Putin backed oligarchs is pretty awful, dropping your security detail to attend a putin oligarchs party in Italy while foreign secretary is bad, trying to block your intelligence agencies reports from being published is awful.

[tabascoboy]

Here is a pretty good summary of the tax issues re Rayner.

https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/02/29/rayner/

As always and according to this detailed analysis then what we don't know nor is out in the public space is what would determine what she may or may not have owed in CGT. If she had put a new kitchen or bathroom in the house then no tax liability basically. In reality, if she has taken proper tax advice, then she has probably been told she has put enough money into house refurb to cancel out any tax liability.

At the end of the day I cannot believe folk are worried about this, at worst a tax issue worth a few hundred, and believe the word of Ashcroft, a known dodgy Non Dom, probably tax dodger for c£100m and who has a reputation of telling ' unsubstantiated stories' in previous publications. If this is the 'dirt' they think they have on the Labour leadership and are going all in on it then they really are shitting themselves about their election chances and are dredging the bottom of the barrel for shit to throw at a working class woman made good! I think this media bullying and rich posh men going after working class girl is rebounding on them - publishing details of her children is beyond most folks tolerance. They are dead old men walking and shitting themselves as they know Labour will come after them and their tax dodging, PPE scandal, gravy train public contracts, etc.

She needs to donate the equivalent of the disputed amount to the Tory party and say "Sorry". That appears to be the current accepted protocol to right a wrong...

[_Os_]

This part is completely false
“it is not necessary that you live there most/all of the time, only that you have lived there”

That is absolutely not true at all. It’s not satisfactory to only have lived there. It was a very dishonest post

It wasn't dishonest, it was a one liner from someone who knows what they're talking about, and someone who uses Google trying to dispute it and failing.

The key test is quality of the time spent in a residence, not the quantity of time. Difficult to claim a property was once your main residence if it had no water/gas/electricity during the period you claimed to have lived there (because you were actually renovating it before putting it into rent for example). Any HMRC case is about this first because it's the easiest to prove/disprove.

Rayner indisputably did live in the property. It's not the case that she never lived there.

Which then leaves you with the much weaker quantity of time argument. You've helpfully posted the HMRC rules, you could not be living in a dwelling for years and it can still be your main residence. Her time was divided between her place of work (any time spent away from the main residence working, elected to parliament after selling the house so probably not much, she was a union rep at the time), her house and her partners house (a less than 10 minute journey between them). Accounting for all of Rayner's movements between 2010-2015 likely isn't possible.

This isn't unusual. Someone who has been unlucky with members of the opposite sex will typically keep their assets separate from any new partner, even after marrying them, for quite some time until they're sure they're not going to get burned again.

God you trot out some bollocks.

“It wasn't dishonest, it was a one liner from someone who knows what they're talking about, and someone who uses Google trying to dispute it and failing.”

It was a false statement saying they only need to declare it, and not live there. And it is in fact not that at all. There’s pretty specific laws here, as you now admit to. She would have needed to be living there beyond 2012.

And you have now reverted to, they can’t prove it.

Fuck me "only need to declare it, and not live there", is literally how it works. She needs to have occupied it at some point and have nominated it. If you don't believe me, this is Neidle the go to tax guy in the media:



And you're wrong about needing to be living there beyond 2012, read the HMRC quote you posted again "any reason for periods adding up to 3 years". Remember when I asked you about someone who divided their time between a flat in London and a house outside of London? If she had a bed/clothes/etc in her house, in addition to the bills going there, and roads both houses are on are under 10 minutes apart (as they are) it becomes difficult to prove anything.

But lets go down a different rabbit hole and assume she didn't declare the house she owned as her main residence (isn't tax fun). She wouldn't be liable for the period it was her only residence, nor would she be liable for the last 18 months (sold between 6 April 2014 and 6 April 2020), any improvement she made can also be deducted, as can the transaction fees. Of the 8 years she owned the property four and half are not liable for CGT plus whatever improvements and fees are deducted. What people then miss (including Neidle) is the individual annual CGT allowance was £11,100 in 2015/16, but she was married and in this scenario would have her husband's house as her main residence, it's possible the tax for that year was done by people who know what they're doing and the annual CGT allowance of both spouses was combined as spouses living together can transfer assets between them without CGT liability (effectively giving an allowance of £22,200). Maybe the experts haven't gone down this rabbit hole because of Rayner's own explanations but that assumes she did the tax herself and is on top of it herself. Combing both spouses CGT allowances would eliminate any remaining profit being CGT liable.

There's two scenarios I know of where Rayner pays no CGT. One where she has nominated the house she owned as her main residence (the scenario she has indicated is the case), and one where she's living with her spouse in his house. The UK tax code is something insane like 20k pages long, many times the combined length of the Bible and Shakespeare's complete works. Lots of rabbit holes to dive down. Social media posts indicating she lived in another house some of the time isn't an open and shut case at all. Rayner has said she has received expert tax advice and that there's no CGT to pay and is happy to provide documentation to the police and HMRC.

[Paddington Bear]

Meanwhile why hasn't William Wragg resigned? Why didnt he report this scam to the police immediately? Why hasn't he had the whip withdrawn? Who are the other Tories implicated in the scandal? What are the police doing about this? Why did Hunt call him courageous when he clearly responded badly to the blackmail? who else sent dick pics to the caller? Has anyone in the press got copies of the pics?

This is the story the Tories are really, really desperate to stop the press exploring in detail!!!

Yeah this is an absolute disgrace. Cannot quite believe that this is being treated so lightly. Somewhat bizarrely the Tory Party is full of gay guys shagging around fairly constantly, and there appears to be some sort of consensus that it’s impossible for them to keep it in their pants so this was inevitable. Pretty astonishing

[Hal Jordan]

Meanwhile why hasn't William Wragg resigned? Why didnt he report this scam to the police immediately? Why hasn't he had the whip withdrawn? Who are the other Tories implicated in the scandal? What are the police doing about this? Why did Hunt call him courageous when he clearly responded badly to the blackmail? who else sent dick pics to the caller? Has anyone in the press got copies of the pics?

This is the story the Tories are really, really desperate to stop the press exploring in detail!!!

Yeah this is an absolute disgrace. Cannot quite believe that this is being treated so lightly. Somewhat bizarrely the Tory Party is full of gay guys shagging around fairly constantly, and there appears to be some sort of consensus that it’s impossible for them to keep it in their pants so this was inevitable. Pretty astonishing

The way ranks have been closed suggests someone fairly senior (probably a Minister) is up to their opened flies in this.

[Insane_Homer]

The RW client media frothing about Angela's dead cat this weekend has worked well to distract everyone of the real story, dick pics.

[inactionman]

Liz Trussterfuck admits she ignored Liz Windor's advice

Liz Truss says in book Queen told her to ‘pace yourself’, admits she didn’t listen

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... izabeth-ii

Imagine having the sheer pathological egotism to ignore every Civil Servant and government body up to the reigning monarch, and then avoid taking responsibility for wrecking the economy of the country you were supposed to lead.

[tabascoboy]

Meanwhile why hasn't William Wragg resigned? Why didnt he report this scam to the police immediately? Why hasn't he had the whip withdrawn? Who are the other Tories implicated in the scandal? What are the police doing about this? Why did Hunt call him courageous when he clearly responded badly to the blackmail? who else sent dick pics to the caller? Has anyone in the press got copies of the pics?

This is the story the Tories are really, really desperate to stop the press exploring in detail!!!

Yeah this is an absolute disgrace. Cannot quite believe that this is being treated so lightly. Somewhat bizarrely the Tory Party is full of gay guys shagging around fairly constantly, and there appears to be some sort of consensus that it’s impossible for them to keep it in their pants so this was inevitable. Pretty astonishing

Well, he has now - although not stood down as an MP...nor lost the whip

William Wragg has stepped down as vice chairman of the 1922 Committee of Tory MPs, after sharing MPs' personal phone numbers with someone on a dating app.

It is also likely that he will quit as the chair of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee.

[SaintK]

Liz Trussterfuck admits she ignored Liz Windor's advice

Liz Truss says in book Queen told her to ‘pace yourself’, admits she didn’t listen

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... izabeth-ii

Imagine having the sheer pathological egotism to ignore every Civil Servant and government body up to the reigning monarch, and then avoid taking responsibility for wrecking the economy of the country you were supposed to lead.

Sounds as if she's as bad as Raab as well

Elsewhere, Truss often writes of struggling with the pressures of high office, including an instance in Spain when she was foreign secretary in which motorcade delays saw her “beginning to lose my rag … on account of constant travel and pressure”, causing her to try to get out of her official car to “remonstrate with police”.

That episode was quelled, Truss writes, with an intervention by her staff and “a cooling off period at a sherry bar”.

[sefton]

Liz Trussterfuck admits she ignored Liz Windor's advice

Liz Truss says in book Queen told her to ‘pace yourself’, admits she didn’t listen

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... izabeth-ii

Imagine having the sheer pathological egotism to ignore every Civil Servant and government body up to the reigning monarch, and then avoid taking responsibility for wrecking the economy of the country you were supposed to lead.

That cos Liz was part of the Deep State stopping Britain being unleashed.

[dpedin]

Liz Trussterfuck admits she ignored Liz Windor's advice

Liz Truss says in book Queen told her to ‘pace yourself’, admits she didn’t listen

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... izabeth-ii

Imagine having the sheer pathological egotism to ignore every Civil Servant and government body up to the reigning monarch, and then avoid taking responsibility for wrecking the economy of the country you were supposed to lead.

That cos Liz was part of the Deep State stopping Britain being unleashed.

Dont forget she is really a lizard, in fact all of the Royal Family are lizards apparently? I feel sorry for Lettuce Liz trying to find her way through a left wing, trotskyist civil service, an avocado eating, tofu chucking secret left wing establishment and a fly eating lizards in disguise Royal Family. It must have been tough being the only sensible one in the room with only her charitable IEA mates to keep her company!

[I like neeps]

Liz Truss being an incompetent disaster notwithstanding... The Queen shouldn't be getting involved.

[Hal Jordan]

Meanwhile why hasn't William Wragg resigned? Why didnt he report this scam to the police immediately? Why hasn't he had the whip withdrawn? Who are the other Tories implicated in the scandal? What are the police doing about this? Why did Hunt call him courageous when he clearly responded badly to the blackmail? who else sent dick pics to the caller? Has anyone in the press got copies of the pics?

This is the story the Tories are really, really desperate to stop the press exploring in detail!!!

Yeah this is an absolute disgrace. Cannot quite believe that this is being treated so lightly. Somewhat bizarrely the Tory Party is full of gay guys shagging around fairly constantly, and there appears to be some sort of consensus that it’s impossible for them to keep it in their pants so this was inevitable. Pretty astonishing

Well, he has now - although not stood down as an MP...nor lost the whip

William Wragg has stepped down as vice chairman of the 1922 Committee of Tory MPs, after sharing MPs' personal phone numbers with someone on a dating app.

It is also likely that he will quit as the chair of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee.

I think if he has the whip removed he'll be referred to the Committee on Standards and then it will all come out, so another reason to dodge accountability.

[Sandstorm]

Liz Truss being an incompetent disaster notwithstanding... The Queen shouldn't be getting involved.

The Queen gave really good advice to about 12 different PMs during her reign and she never actually tried to interfere; just gave quiet guidance, without getting (publicly) snippy if it was ignored.
Top bird all round.

[C69]

I believe the term is VOLUNTOLD

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68773702

William Wragg, the MP who admitted sharing MPs' personal phone numbers with someone on a dating app, has "voluntarily" given up the Conservative whip

Conservative chair Richard Holden later told Sky News it was "right" for Mr Wragg to resign the Conservative whip.

He said the 36-year-old MP had made a "fulsome apology", adding: "It's quite clear his career in public life is at an end."

OUCH

[Hal Jordan]

The political equivalent of being informed there's a bottle of whisky and a revolver in the library.

[Tichtheid]

[SaintK]

[dpedin]

Those guys are brilliant as are these guys .....



Colin from Portsmouth knows!

[Tichtheid]

According to some reports the UK Gov has already given £220M to Rwanda.

Rwandan homes earmarked for deported migrants sold to locals
Last year an estate in Kigali was approved by Suella Braverman as home secretary. Now 70 per cent of its properties, once set to house asylum seekers, are taken

https://archive.ph/HLtjr#selection-2531.0-2535.160

[Slick]

Brilliant

[Slick]

Those guys are brilliant as are these guys .....



Colin from Portsmouth knows!

I thought this was just OK, until the very end.

That "argh" had me rolling about.

[SaintK]

According to some reports the UK Gov has already given £220M to Rwanda.

Rwandan homes earmarked for deported migrants sold to locals
Last year an estate in Kigali was approved by Suella Braverman as home secretary. Now 70 per cent of its properties, once set to house asylum seekers, are taken

https://archive.ph/HLtjr#selection-2531.0-2535.160

Rwandan state airline not impressed either

Kigali’s state-owned airline seems less eager to get involved. RwandAir turned down a U.K. proposal to run the removal flights … because of concerns about reputational risk, according to the FT’s Anna Gross and William Wallis. “RwandAir said ‘No’ because of the potential damage to their brand,” a Home Office insider tells them.

[Tichtheid]

I just saw short interview with Dr Hilary Jones, the ITV guy who was asked if he supported the Junior Doctors who are going on strike. He explained that a 35% wage rise sounds unreasonable until you realise that what they are asking for is a rise from £15/hr to £20 per hour.

A quick google tells me that the average rate for a plumber in the UK is £40- 70 per hour. Same for electricians. Plumbers do a good job and as I trained as a spark I know what's involved, I also know it's nothing like the training needed to be a doctor.

It was said that the losses due to the strikes so far are about half the amount needed to settle the doctors' pay claim.

Yet again the Tories are shown to be economic fuckwits.

[dpedin]

Those guys are brilliant as are these guys .....



Colin from Portsmouth knows!

I thought this was just OK, until the very end.

That "argh" had me rolling about.

I liked the Diversity line!

[sockwithaticket]

I just saw short interview with Dr Hilary Jones, the ITV guy who was asked if he supported the Junior Doctors who are going on strike. He explained that a 35% wage rise sounds unreasonable until you realise that what they are asking for is a rise from £15/hr to £20 per hour.

A quick google tells me that the average rate for a plumber in the UK is £40- 70 per hour. Same for electricians. Plumbers do a good job and as I trained as a spark I know what's involved, I also know it's nothing like the training needed to be a doctor.

It was said that the losses due to the strikes so far are about half the amount needed to settle the doctors' pay claim.

Yet again the Tories are shown to be economic fuckwits.

This happened with the rail strikes as well, meeting demands would have been far cheaper than allowing the strikes to go on for as long as they did, but not negotiating and making strikes inevitable has never been about the economics of the pay rises. It's about not being seen to kowtow to unions, but also trying to ensure that the populous is inconvenienced for long enough that they'll turn on unions and in the case of the NHS specifically continuing to sow the seeds in the public consciousness that the NHS is broken, can't/won't serve them and is full of money grubbers, thus laying the groundwork to push for further privatisation.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

I just saw short interview with Dr Hilary Jones, the ITV guy who was asked if he supported the Junior Doctors who are going on strike. He explained that a 35% wage rise sounds unreasonable until you realise that what they are asking for is a rise from £15/hr to £20 per hour.

A quick google tells me that the average rate for a plumber in the UK is £40- 70 per hour. Same for electricians. Plumbers do a good job and as I trained as a spark I know what's involved, I also know it's nothing like the training needed to be a doctor.

It was said that the losses due to the strikes so far are about half the amount needed to settle the doctors' pay claim.

Yet again the Tories are shown to be economic fuckwits.

I suspect the number of recently qualified plumbers earning £80K a year is quite low.

[dpedin]

I just saw short interview with Dr Hilary Jones, the ITV guy who was asked if he supported the Junior Doctors who are going on strike. He explained that a 35% wage rise sounds unreasonable until you realise that what they are asking for is a rise from £15/hr to £20 per hour.

A quick google tells me that the average rate for a plumber in the UK is £40- 70 per hour. Same for electricians. Plumbers do a good job and as I trained as a spark I know what's involved, I also know it's nothing like the training needed to be a doctor.

It was said that the losses due to the strikes so far are about half the amount needed to settle the doctors' pay claim.

Yet again the Tories are shown to be economic fuckwits.

I know a bit about NHS and the pay for junior docs has been a national disgrace for the last 10 years and in my mind a deliberate attempt to destroy the NHS. 50% of all doctors are so called 'junior doctors'. All will have a degree, many will have a higher degree ie MD or PhD, many will have a professional qualification achieved through examination, some will also have non medical qualifications achieved through examination ie MBA, many will have done a Post CCT qualification as well ie a Fellowship once they've qualified to be a consultant and are on the register. Most junior doctors will work shifts and most patients will be treated by a junior doctor, particularly at night or at weekends, many operations and procedures will be carried out by a junior doctor.

A junior doctor will have studied for a 5+ year undergraduate degree before doing 2 years as a Foundation Trainee, then do 2-3 year core training in chosen area before then doing higher specialty training of anything between 3 and 8 years. So starting Uni at 18 means you will be a minimum of 12 years before qualifying as a GP. and more as a hospital consultant The reality - given progress is by examination, many take time out of training conveyor belt, women trainees will have babies, time out to do other studies, etc - is the minimum is closer to 15 years and in many cases up to and over 20+ years. Those coming through are likely to have the highest of any student debts, over £100k is not unusual.

The term 'junior doctor' is dreadful. It is like calling all accountants 'junior accountants' until they become Partners. Junior doctors are highly qualified and skilled people who are some of the brightest and most dedicated people I have ever known. Would or could I do their job, definitely not! They get paid vastly more money abroad in many English speaking countries and are treated far better than we treat them. Many are highly intelligent and are leaving medicine completely to get more pay, better working conditions and less hours and stress in other industries. Many are leaving.

If we want a proper functioning NHS then we need to look after these junior doctors and pay them a decent wage. We are already heavily dependent upon International Medical Graduates to make up the gaps in the NHS and we are struggling to attract the best in a competitive international marketplace. In all honesty I just want a medical workforce around to look after me in my old age!

[yermum]

Edited for clarity

[yermum]

I just saw short interview with Dr Hilary Jones, the ITV guy who was asked if he supported the Junior Doctors who are going on strike. He explained that a 35% wage rise sounds unreasonable until you realise that what they are asking for is a rise from £15/hr to £20 per hour.

A quick google tells me that the average rate for a plumber in the UK is £40- 70 per hour. Same for electricians. Plumbers do a good job and as I trained as a spark I know what's involved, I also know it's nothing like the training needed to be a doctor.

It was said that the losses due to the strikes so far are about half the amount needed to settle the doctors' pay claim.

Yet again the Tories are shown to be economic fuckwits.

I suspect the number of recently qualified plumbers earning £80K a year is quite low.

You do realise that junior Drs are not all newly qualified of course. They can be very senior clinicians just not consultants

[Sandstorm]

Maybe it's time for the NHS to stop calling them junior doctors? If you are going to call them something stupid, then you should expect the general public to be ignorant of their actual skillsets.

[Biffer]

I just saw short interview with Dr Hilary Jones, the ITV guy who was asked if he supported the Junior Doctors who are going on strike. He explained that a 35% wage rise sounds unreasonable until you realise that what they are asking for is a rise from £15/hr to £20 per hour.

A quick google tells me that the average rate for a plumber in the UK is £40- 70 per hour. Same for electricians. Plumbers do a good job and as I trained as a spark I know what's involved, I also know it's nothing like the training needed to be a doctor.

It was said that the losses due to the strikes so far are about half the amount needed to settle the doctors' pay claim.

Yet again the Tories are shown to be economic fuckwits.

This happened with the rail strikes as well, meeting demands would have been far cheaper than allowing the strikes to go on for as long as they did, but not negotiating and making strikes inevitable has never been about the economics of the pay rises. It's about not being seen to kowtow to unions, but also trying to ensure that the populous is inconvenienced for long enough that they'll turn on unions and in the case of the NHS specifically continuing to sow the seeds in the public consciousness that the NHS is broken, can't/won't serve them and is full of money grubbers, thus laying the groundwork to push for further privatisation.

Problem is, there are now direct, in country comparisons that can be made. Some operators have settled, their trains are running and the world hasn’t caught fire.

[Tichtheid]

I just saw short interview with Dr Hilary Jones, the ITV guy who was asked if he supported the Junior Doctors who are going on strike. He explained that a 35% wage rise sounds unreasonable until you realise that what they are asking for is a rise from £15/hr to £20 per hour.

A quick google tells me that the average rate for a plumber in the UK is £40- 70 per hour. Same for electricians. Plumbers do a good job and as I trained as a spark I know what's involved, I also know it's nothing like the training needed to be a doctor.

It was said that the losses due to the strikes so far are about half the amount needed to settle the doctors' pay claim.

Yet again the Tories are shown to be economic fuckwits.

I know a bit about NHS and the pay for junior docs has been a national disgrace for the last 10 years and in my mind a deliberate attempt to destroy the NHS. 50% of all doctors are so called 'junior doctors'. All will have a degree, many will have a higher degree ie MD or PhD, many will have a professional qualification achieved through examination, some will also have non medical qualifications achieved through examination ie MBA, many will have done a Post CCT qualification as well ie a Fellowship once they've qualified to be a consultant and are on the register. Most junior doctors will work shifts and most patients will be treated by a junior doctor, particularly at night or at weekends, many operations and procedures will be carried out by a junior doctor.

A junior doctor will have studied for a 5+ year undergraduate degree before doing 2 years as a Foundation Trainee, then do 2-3 year core training in chosen area before then doing higher specialty training of anything between 3 and 8 years. So starting Uni at 18 means you will be a minimum of 12 years before qualifying as a GP. and more as a hospital consultant The reality - given progress is by examination, many take time out of training conveyor belt, women trainees will have babies, time out to do other studies, etc - is the minimum is closer to 15 years and in many cases up to and over 20+ years. Those coming through are likely to have the highest of any student debts, over £100k is not unusual.

The term 'junior doctor' is dreadful. It is like calling all accountants 'junior accountants' until they become Partners. Junior doctors are highly qualified and skilled people who are some of the brightest and most dedicated people I have ever known. Would or could I do their job, definitely not! They get paid vastly more money abroad in many English speaking countries and are treated far better than we treat them. Many are highly intelligent and are leaving medicine completely to get more pay, better working conditions and less hours and stress in other industries. Many are leaving.

If we want a proper functioning NHS then we need to look after these junior doctors and pay them a decent wage. We are already heavily dependent upon International Medical Graduates to make up the gaps in the NHS and we are struggling to attract the best in a competitive international marketplace. In all honesty I just want a medical workforce around to look after me in my old age!

Yeah one of the points Dr Hilary Jones made was that some of the medics are getting fed up and leaving to work abroad, he mentioned Canada and Australia.

What he didn't say was that the money that went into training them is being lost too.

Something that he did say is that we are in danger of getting the NHS we deserve.

[dpedin]

I just saw short interview with Dr Hilary Jones, the ITV guy who was asked if he supported the Junior Doctors who are going on strike. He explained that a 35% wage rise sounds unreasonable until you realise that what they are asking for is a rise from £15/hr to £20 per hour.

A quick google tells me that the average rate for a plumber in the UK is £40- 70 per hour. Same for electricians. Plumbers do a good job and as I trained as a spark I know what's involved, I also know it's nothing like the training needed to be a doctor.

It was said that the losses due to the strikes so far are about half the amount needed to settle the doctors' pay claim.

Yet again the Tories are shown to be economic fuckwits.

I know a bit about NHS and the pay for junior docs has been a national disgrace for the last 10 years and in my mind a deliberate attempt to destroy the NHS. 50% of all doctors are so called 'junior doctors'. All will have a degree, many will have a higher degree ie MD or PhD, many will have a professional qualification achieved through examination, some will also have non medical qualifications achieved through examination ie MBA, many will have done a Post CCT qualification as well ie a Fellowship once they've qualified to be a consultant and are on the register. Most junior doctors will work shifts and most patients will be treated by a junior doctor, particularly at night or at weekends, many operations and procedures will be carried out by a junior doctor.

A junior doctor will have studied for a 5+ year undergraduate degree before doing 2 years as a Foundation Trainee, then do 2-3 year core training in chosen area before then doing higher specialty training of anything between 3 and 8 years. So starting Uni at 18 means you will be a minimum of 12 years before qualifying as a GP. and more as a hospital consultant The reality - given progress is by examination, many take time out of training conveyor belt, women trainees will have babies, time out to do other studies, etc - is the minimum is closer to 15 years and in many cases up to and over 20+ years. Those coming through are likely to have the highest of any student debts, over £100k is not unusual.

The term 'junior doctor' is dreadful. It is like calling all accountants 'junior accountants' until they become Partners. Junior doctors are highly qualified and skilled people who are some of the brightest and most dedicated people I have ever known. Would or could I do their job, definitely not! They get paid vastly more money abroad in many English speaking countries and are treated far better than we treat them. Many are highly intelligent and are leaving medicine completely to get more pay, better working conditions and less hours and stress in other industries. Many are leaving.

If we want a proper functioning NHS then we need to look after these junior doctors and pay them a decent wage. We are already heavily dependent upon International Medical Graduates to make up the gaps in the NHS and we are struggling to attract the best in a competitive international marketplace. In all honesty I just want a medical workforce around to look after me in my old age!

Yeah one of the points Dr Hilary Jones made was that some of the medics are getting fed up and leaving to work abroad, he mentioned Canada and Australia.

What he didn't say was that the money that went into training them is being lost too.

Something that he did say is that we are in danger of getting the NHS we deserve.

Also I am not sure that many folk pushing the private sector realise that the private sector trains very few if any doctors, nurses or other professions - they depend solely on NHS staff or international staff to staff their private hospitals. Without the NHS training staff then the whole of the medical provision in the UK would grind to a halt. Also if more work is shifted to the private sector then there are less training opportunities for trainees and the whole training pipeline gets blocked up and insufficient to meet demand. For example if the routine low risk work ie hip replacements or knee replacements in otherwise healthy patients goes to private sector and the NHS is left with complex case mix then the training opportunities for trainee orthopods are limited and training becomes more difficult. If they dont do enough routine cases suited for training then they dont get their training signed off.

[epwc]

Not sure if this has already been posted:

[weegie01]

Also I am not sure that many folk pushing the private sector realise that the private sector trains very few if any doctors, nurses or other professions - they depend solely on NHS staff or international staff to staff their private hospitals. Without the NHS training staff then the whole of the medical provision in the UK would grind to a halt. Also if more work is shifted to the private sector then there are less training opportunities for trainees and the whole training pipeline gets blocked up and insufficient to meet demand. For example if the routine low risk work ie hip replacements or knee replacements in otherwise healthy patients goes to private sector and the NHS is left with complex case mix then the training opportunities for trainee orthopods are limited and training becomes more difficult. If they dont do enough routine cases suited for training then they dont get their training signed off.

The private sector trains most professionals in other sectors, is there any reason why it can't do so at least in part for medical staff? If more of the 'training' work is shifted to the private sector then surely it is not beyond the wit of man to transfer the training burden as well.

I appreciate this is not a trivial change and is not the way things are set up now, but surely this must happen in countries with wholly or largely largely private medical provision.

BTW this was a major issue with offshoring IT. It was the routine work that was offshored, which was precisely the work needed for people to build experience.

[epwc]

The biggest issue with Private vs NHS is the lack of ICU in Private hospitals, my nan was turned into a gibbering 5 year old due to this (many years ago), still happening now:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68717086

I can't fault the NHS in terms of service delivery, my sis in law (myeloma), dad (prostrate), mum (heart/kidneys) and currently father in law (been in hospital with stroke almost a month now). Of course without migrants it'd be dead in the water but really had no major issues. Yes, it's mismanaged and underfunded but despite that it really is quite good

[Dinsdale Piranha]

I just saw short interview with Dr Hilary Jones, the ITV guy who was asked if he supported the Junior Doctors who are going on strike. He explained that a 35% wage rise sounds unreasonable until you realise that what they are asking for is a rise from £15/hr to £20 per hour.

A quick google tells me that the average rate for a plumber in the UK is £40- 70 per hour. Same for electricians. Plumbers do a good job and as I trained as a spark I know what's involved, I also know it's nothing like the training needed to be a doctor.

It was said that the losses due to the strikes so far are about half the amount needed to settle the doctors' pay claim.

Yet again the Tories are shown to be economic fuckwits.

I suspect the number of recently qualified plumbers earning £80K a year is quite low.

You do realise that junior Drs are not all newly qualified of course. They can be very senior clinicians just not consultants

And if they have been working for a few years they won't be on 15 quid an hour.

Junior doctors is indeed a not very useful descrption. I also know several who have fucked off abroad - mostly Australia - a few years after qualifying.

[Tichtheid]

Also I am not sure that many folk pushing the private sector realise that the private sector trains very few if any doctors, nurses or other professions - they depend solely on NHS staff or international staff to staff their private hospitals. Without the NHS training staff then the whole of the medical provision in the UK would grind to a halt. Also if more work is shifted to the private sector then there are less training opportunities for trainees and the whole training pipeline gets blocked up and insufficient to meet demand. For example if the routine low risk work ie hip replacements or knee replacements in otherwise healthy patients goes to private sector and the NHS is left with complex case mix then the training opportunities for trainee orthopods are limited and training becomes more difficult. If they dont do enough routine cases suited for training then they dont get their training signed off.

The private sector trains most professionals in other sectors, is there any reason why it can't do so at least in part for medical staff? If more of the 'training' work is shifted to the private sector then surely it is not beyond the wit of man to transfer the training burden as well.

I appreciate this is not a trivial change and is not the way things are set up now, but surely this must happen in countries with wholly or largely largely private medical provision.

It is possible, however and for example, the US medics finish their university level studies with around £170K of debt (converted from a dollar amount I found with Google). In the UK it's currently around £70K of debt at the same stage.

As things stand private health care facilities use staff trained at our expense.

I remember as a17 year old being in the company of an adult in a college classroom (she was a mature student) who said that when she gave blood she gave it in good faith and didn't care if private patients were the recipients.

I was too timid at that age to say anything but even then I questioned why a private health care provider should profit from her act of good faith

There are things that naturally lend themselves to state provision, defence, policing, fire control, roads and travel infrastructure, utilities (the privatisation of the latter two is a disaster), education and health - we all benefit from a relatively modest contribution in these areas.