Irelands starting 15 for tomorrow is 33% Southern Hemisphere born.

[sockwithaticket]

LOL at the marketing geniuses who decided "finishers" looks cooler than "reserves", "replacements" or "substitutes".

Wait, is it 2016 again?

[Carter's Choice]

LOL at the marketing geniuses who decided "finishers" looks cooler than "reserves", "replacements" or "substitutes".

if I ever use the term 'finisher' on this forum un-ironically I give permission for the mods to perma ban me on the spot.

[Mr Bungle]

Does anyone in tier 1 have the moral high ground on this anymore?

What has been born out is that no one gives a shit if you arrived in country as a kid and learned the game from there, but that nationalising of fully fledged pros is the true scourge of poaching.

[Steve]

Does anyone in tier 1 have the moral high ground on this anymore?

What has been born out is that no one gives a shit if you arrived in country as a kid and learned the game from there, but that nationalising of fully fledged pros is the true scourge of poaching.

This is it in a nutshell for me . They point the finger at Lomu et al and scoff “ sure you poach the tongans “.

It’s totally different to be importing already established professional players in their mid 20’s and parachuting them in .

Jean Kleyn usurping Devin Toner when he was eligible for about a week was the nadir .

[stemoc]

Does anyone in tier 1 have the moral high ground on this anymore?

argentina?

[Biffer]

To be fair, there is a complication with some South Africans - there are those who don’t think they’ll get a fair crack of the whip at home because of quotas so are genuinely looking for somewhere else to call home and adopt as their country. That’s happening in other areas than sport as well, I have several friends who are originally boks but have adopted Scotland as their home, got citizenship, let their saffer passports lapse and not renew them etc.

[Mr Bungle]

To be fair, there is a complication with some South Africans - there are those who don’t think they’ll get a fair crack of the whip at home because of quotas so are genuinely looking for somewhere else to call home and adopt as their country. That’s happening in other areas than sport as well, I have several friends who are originally boks but have adopted Scotland as their home, got citizenship, let their saffer passports lapse and not renew them etc.

Leaving the third world for the first. So many Saffers and Zimbos in NZ due to the dangers of their homelands and leaving it all behind to better their families lives.

[Lemoentjie]

South Africa and Argentina has a moral high ground.

1/3 of the team being not Irish, at what stage is it no longer an Irish team?

These guys like Duhan playing for Scotland, they share nothing with this country. No common mother tongue, no ancestry, just a love of British GBP.

[Biffer]

South Africa and Argentina has a moral high ground.

1/3 of the team being not Irish, at what stage is it no longer an Irish team?

These guys like Duhan playing for Scotland, they share nothing with this country. No common mother tongue, no ancestry, just a love of British GBP.

Can you see the rest of us playing rugby from up there?

[eldanielfire]

International rugby is such a bastardised sport nowadays, its sad. The credibility of the sport has been devalued by lax eligibility requirements.

Good thing they have been getting tighter, 5 year rule should reduce issues like this.

[Theflier]

South Africa and Argentina has a moral high ground.

1/3 of the team being not Irish, at what stage is it no longer an Irish team?

These guys like Duhan playing for Scotland, they share nothing with this country. No common mother tongue, no ancestry, just a love of British GBP.

The scots are by far the worst offenders, select a kiwi, instantly making the guy less valuable to kiwi teams, give him one game, then cut ties.

They must be on for 20+ in the last decade, kebble, Duhan, Steyn, Haining, Thompson, Johnson, Skinner, Lang, Burleigh, McGuigan, Hamilton, Harris, Hardie, Nel, Strauss, Dell, Berghan, Du preez, Grigg, Marfo, Holmes, Watson, Cusack, Toolis.

Yeh, that's 24, all in the last 5 years, they've capped far more non scots than scots. Its a mockery

[Paddington Bear]

The system is a joke and Ireland have picked their best side - fine. Would be nice with such an international flavour if the internet toned down the tribal nationalism around home nations fixtures, but I’ll suspect there’ll be plenty of 800 years flying around regardless

[GogLais]

South Africa and Argentina has a moral high ground.

1/3 of the team being not Irish, at what stage is it no longer an Irish team?

These guys like Duhan playing for Scotland, they share nothing with this country. No common mother tongue, no ancestry, just a love of British GBP.

The scots are by far the worst offenders, select a kiwi, instantly making the guy less valuable to kiwi teams, give him one game, then cut ties.

They must be on for 20+ in the last decade, kebble, Duhan, Steyn, Haining, Thompson, Johnson, Skinner, Lang, Burleigh, McGuigan, Hamilton, Harris, Hardie, Nel, Strauss, Dell, Berghan, Du preez, Grigg, Marfo, Holmes, Watson, Cusack, Toolis.

Yeh, that's 24, all in the last 5 years, they've capped far more non scots than scots. Its a mockery

I've always assumed that the qualification rules were driven by the world rugby authorities wanting to ensure that the weaker countries like (insert country of your choice) are more competitive so there's a better product for television. Having said that I'm not sure when the current rules came in to existence.

[Slick]

South Africa and Argentina has a moral high ground.

1/3 of the team being not Irish, at what stage is it no longer an Irish team?

These guys like Duhan playing for Scotland, they share nothing with this country. No common mother tongue, no ancestry, just a love of British GBP.

The scots are by far the worst offenders, select a kiwi, instantly making the guy less valuable to kiwi teams, give him one game, then cut ties.

They must be on for 20+ in the last decade, kebble, Duhan, Steyn, Haining, Thompson, Johnson, Skinner, Lang, Burleigh, McGuigan, Hamilton, Harris, Hardie, Nel, Strauss, Dell, Berghan, Du preez, Grigg, Marfo, Holmes, Watson, Cusack, Toolis.

Yeh, that's 24, all in the last 5 years, they've capped far more non scots than scots. Its a mockery

That’s a terrifically poor post, Donald.

[Cartman]

At the scrumhalf is trying his hardest to look like a leprechaun

[OomStruisbaai]

At the scrumhalf is trying his hardest to look like a leprechaun

Iere surely have better 9s

[Paddington Bear]

At the scrumhalf is trying his hardest to look like a leprechaun

Looks like Gimli’s younger brother for me

[JM2K6]

I'm just surprised. A couple of years ago it looked like Ireland were producing superb players for fun.

[Steve]

I’m sure they will be claiming Seamus Rayasi from
Auckland on Shannon soon.

[Steve]

Delighted to see them get towelled up by the empire today . 801 years cunts

[Not_Couch]

To be fair, there is a complication with some South Africans - there are those who don’t think they’ll get a fair crack of the whip at home because of quotas so are genuinely looking for somewhere else to call home and adopt as their country. That’s happening in other areas than sport as well, I have several friends who are originally boks but have adopted Scotland as their home, got citizenship, let their saffer passports lapse and not renew them etc.

Leaving the third world for the first. So many Saffers and Zimbos in NZ due to the dangers of their homelands and leaving it all behind to better their families lives.

Quotas unsurprisingly have the reverse effect on their white privilege

[JM2K6]

Delighted to see them get towelled up by the empire today . 801 years cunts

You're very odd.

[Steve]

Delighted to see them get towelled up by the empire today . 801 years cunts

You're very odd.

Not really. Just love seeing them getting smashed to bits.

[mrbrownstone]

Can't wait to see this great Lions backline next year

9. Gibson-Parke
10. Anscombe
11. Lowe
12. Aki
13. Halaholo
14. Maitland
15. McNicholl

21. Heinz
22. Carberry
23. Parkes

[sockwithaticket]

Can't wait to see this great Lions backline next year

9. Gibson-Parke
10. Anscombe
11. Lowe
12. Aki
13. Halaholo
14. Maitland
15. McNicholl

21. Heinz
22. Carberry
23. Parkes

I suggest you get used to waiting since maybe one of those guys would potentially be on the plane.

[eldanielfire]

The scots are by far the worst offenders, select a kiwi, instantly making the guy less valuable to kiwi teams, give him one game, then cut ties.

They must be on for 20+ in the last decade, kebble, Duhan, Steyn, Haining, Thompson, Johnson, Skinner, Lang, Burleigh, McGuigan, Hamilton, Harris, Hardie, Nel, Strauss, Dell, Berghan, Du preez, Grigg, Marfo, Holmes, Watson, Cusack, Toolis.

Yeh, that's 24, all in the last 5 years, they've capped far more non scots than scots. Its a mockery

Bloody heck, I didn't know it was that bad.

[eldanielfire]

I'm just surprised. A couple of years ago it looked like Ireland were producing superb players for fun.

As always swings and roundabouts. All systems can't produce perfection constantly.

Likewise I believe some talent is helped by the competition and environmental circumstances. A lot of the current England team were blooded young in the Lancaster era due to a lack of older quality talent. I also believe these circumstances allowed the young talent to progress faster, they have good junior competition which pushed them, no coincidence the 2011 U20 All Blacks and the England team of that year and the year after seem to be massively dominate both test side line-ups in recent years. I don't think the innate talent after those groups of players was less, just environment and opportunities meant these generations had opportunity to develop faster and higher. And as a consequence their dominated of places at the highest level leaves fewer development opportunities for others.

Perhaps this occurred with Ireland. They had a lot of key players in key positions for a long time at both club and test level (Sexton, O'Brian Kearney) leaving pathways closed for others to develop at a young age.

[JM2K6]

I'm just surprised. A couple of years ago it looked like Ireland were producing superb players for fun.

As always swings and roundabouts. All systems can't produce perfection constantly.

Likewise I believe some talent is helped by the competition and environmental circumstances. A lot of the current England team were blooded young in the Lancaster era due to a lack of older quality talent. I also believe these circumstances allowed the young talent to progress faster, they have good junior competition which pushed them, no coincidence the 2011 U20 All Blacks and the England team of that year and the year after seem to be massively dominate both test side line-ups in recent years. I don't think the innate talent after those groups of players was less, just environment and opportunities meant these generations had opportunity to develop faster and higher. And as a consequence their dominated of places at the highest level leaves fewer development opportunities for others.

Perhaps this occurred with Ireland. They had a lot of key players in key positions for a long time at both club and test level (Sexton, O'Brian Kearney) leaving pathways closed for others to develop at a young age.

I'm talking about literally a couple of years. Those players don't just suddenly disappear.

[Mr Bungle]

Can't wait to see this great Lions backline next year

9. Gibson-Parke
10. Anscombe
11. Lowe
12. Aki
13. Halaholo
14. Maitland
15. McNicholl

21. Heinz
22. Carberry
23. Parkes

I suggest you get used to waiting since maybe one of those guys would potentially be on the plane.

Bookmarked.

[sockwithaticket]

Can't wait to see this great Lions backline next year

9. Gibson-Parke
10. Anscombe
11. Lowe
12. Aki
13. Halaholo
14. Maitland
15. McNicholl

21. Heinz
22. Carberry
23. Parkes

I suggest you get used to waiting since maybe one of those guys would potentially be on the plane.

Bookmarked.

If two or more of those are in the squad, let alone the team, we've either got the most incompetent selectors in recent memory or are in the midst of an injury crisis so great that it won't be worth heading to the airport. The only I could see as likely to go is Aki due to a general lack of quality 12s around. Since Gatland's in charge he's just as likely to pick Owen Watkin instead ("Who?" you might ask. Precisely).

[Biffer]

South Africa and Argentina has a moral high ground.

1/3 of the team being not Irish, at what stage is it no longer an Irish team?

These guys like Duhan playing for Scotland, they share nothing with this country. No common mother tongue, no ancestry, just a love of British GBP.

The scots are by far the worst offenders, select a kiwi, instantly making the guy less valuable to kiwi teams, give him one game, then cut ties.

They must be on for 20+ in the last decade, kebble, Duhan, Steyn, Haining, Thompson, Johnson, Skinner, Lang, Burleigh, McGuigan, Hamilton, Harris, Hardie, Nel, Strauss, Dell, Berghan, Du preez, Grigg, Marfo, Holmes, Watson, Cusack, Toolis.

Yeh, that's 24, all in the last 5 years, they've capped far more non scots than scots. Its a mockery

So are you of the 'must be born in the country to represent the country' point of view?

So none of Frizzell, Naholo, Koroibete, Kuridrani, Kaino, Sivivatu, Rokocoko, Muliaina, Collins, Mehrtens, would have played for New Zealand? Pocock and Genia wouldn't have played for Oz? Mtawarira, Skinstadt, Mujati wouldn't have played for South Africa?

[eldanielfire]

I'm just surprised. A couple of years ago it looked like Ireland were producing superb players for fun.

As always swings and roundabouts. All systems can't produce perfection constantly.

Likewise I believe some talent is helped by the competition and environmental circumstances. A lot of the current England team were blooded young in the Lancaster era due to a lack of older quality talent. I also believe these circumstances allowed the young talent to progress faster, they have good junior competition which pushed them, no coincidence the 2011 U20 All Blacks and the England team of that year and the year after seem to be massively dominate both test side line-ups in recent years. I don't think the innate talent after those groups of players was less, just environment and opportunities meant these generations had opportunity to develop faster and higher. And as a consequence their dominated of places at the highest level leaves fewer development opportunities for others.

Perhaps this occurred with Ireland. They had a lot of key players in key positions for a long time at both club and test level (Sexton, O'Brian Kearney) leaving pathways closed for others to develop at a young age.

I'm talking about literally a couple of years. Those players don't just suddenly disappear.

It was only last year Ireland was entering the 6 Nations, dick swinging from side to side with a victory over the All Blacks. In rugby times change and perceptions change and players pas and fail the tests of quality changing perceptions. I think I can dig up articles about how many great new players were going to follow the 2003 side and we saw how that went quite quickly. I'd say South Africa is a good example of a side having dips and highs very quickly after each other and within the same generation of players. Wales too. Perhaps it's the nature of a lot of rugby?

[eldanielfire]

South Africa and Argentina has a moral high ground.

1/3 of the team being not Irish, at what stage is it no longer an Irish team?

These guys like Duhan playing for Scotland, they share nothing with this country. No common mother tongue, no ancestry, just a love of British GBP.

The scots are by far the worst offenders, select a kiwi, instantly making the guy less valuable to kiwi teams, give him one game, then cut ties.

They must be on for 20+ in the last decade, kebble, Duhan, Steyn, Haining, Thompson, Johnson, Skinner, Lang, Burleigh, McGuigan, Hamilton, Harris, Hardie, Nel, Strauss, Dell, Berghan, Du preez, Grigg, Marfo, Holmes, Watson, Cusack, Toolis.

Yeh, that's 24, all in the last 5 years, they've capped far more non scots than scots. Its a mockery

So are you of the 'must be born in the country to represent the country' point of view?

So none of Frizzell, Naholo, Koroibete, Kuridrani, Kaino, Sivivatu, Rokocoko, Muliaina, Collins, Mehrtens, would have played for New Zealand? Pocock and Genia wouldn't have played for Oz? Mtawarira, Skinstadt, Mujati wouldn't have played for South Africa?

That is some conflation. I don't think many, if any of the players named where particularly Scottish in any way bar some technicality related to relatives or work. The running joke for years was you know if you go to the changing room at Twickenham and it's full of home county accents, you know you've entered the Scottish one.

[Biffer]

The scots are by far the worst offenders, select a kiwi, instantly making the guy less valuable to kiwi teams, give him one game, then cut ties.

They must be on for 20+ in the last decade, kebble, Duhan, Steyn, Haining, Thompson, Johnson, Skinner, Lang, Burleigh, McGuigan, Hamilton, Harris, Hardie, Nel, Strauss, Dell, Berghan, Du preez, Grigg, Marfo, Holmes, Watson, Cusack, Toolis.

Yeh, that's 24, all in the last 5 years, they've capped far more non scots than scots. Its a mockery

So are you of the 'must be born in the country to represent the country' point of view?

So none of Frizzell, Naholo, Koroibete, Kuridrani, Kaino, Sivivatu, Rokocoko, Muliaina, Collins, Mehrtens, would have played for New Zealand? Pocock and Genia wouldn't have played for Oz? Mtawarira, Skinstadt, Mujati wouldn't have played for South Africa?

That is some conflation. I don't think many, if any of the players named where particularly Scottish in any way bar some technicality related to relatives or work. The running joke for years was you know if you go to the changing room at Twickenham and it's full of home county accents, you know you've entered the Scottish one.

But this is the problem isn't it - how do you define a particular nationality. You either set a hard line in the sand and people fall one side of it or the other, or you do some kind of touchy feely BS where someone has to meet someone else's view of being 'Scottish'. And if you choose the second one you get into never ending arguments. More than half of that list of names have Scottish parents or grandparents. If grandparents are set as the line, there's not a problem. I've never liked the three year rule, I think the change to 5 years is much needed as that mean you'll likely play half your professional career in country.

[JM2K6]

South Africa and Argentina has a moral high ground.

1/3 of the team being not Irish, at what stage is it no longer an Irish team?

These guys like Duhan playing for Scotland, they share nothing with this country. No common mother tongue, no ancestry, just a love of British GBP.

The scots are by far the worst offenders, select a kiwi, instantly making the guy less valuable to kiwi teams, give him one game, then cut ties.

They must be on for 20+ in the last decade, kebble, Duhan, Steyn, Haining, Thompson, Johnson, Skinner, Lang, Burleigh, McGuigan, Hamilton, Harris, Hardie, Nel, Strauss, Dell, Berghan, Du preez, Grigg, Marfo, Holmes, Watson, Cusack, Toolis.

Yeh, that's 24, all in the last 5 years, they've capped far more non scots than scots. Its a mockery

So are you of the 'must be born in the country to represent the country' point of view?

So none of Frizzell, Naholo, Koroibete, Kuridrani, Kaino, Sivivatu, Rokocoko, Muliaina, Collins, Mehrtens, would have played for New Zealand? Pocock and Genia wouldn't have played for Oz? Mtawarira, Skinstadt, Mujati wouldn't have played for South Africa?

Koroibete and Kuridrani in the Oz column surely

[bok_viking]

South Africa and Argentina has a moral high ground.

1/3 of the team being not Irish, at what stage is it no longer an Irish team?

These guys like Duhan playing for Scotland, they share nothing with this country. No common mother tongue, no ancestry, just a love of British GBP.

The scots are by far the worst offenders, select a kiwi, instantly making the guy less valuable to kiwi teams, give him one game, then cut ties.

They must be on for 20+ in the last decade, kebble, Duhan, Steyn, Haining, Thompson, Johnson, Skinner, Lang, Burleigh, McGuigan, Hamilton, Harris, Hardie, Nel, Strauss, Dell, Berghan, Du preez, Grigg, Marfo, Holmes, Watson, Cusack, Toolis.

Yeh, that's 24, all in the last 5 years, they've capped far more non scots than scots. Its a mockery

So are you of the 'must be born in the country to represent the country' point of view?

So none of Frizzell, Naholo, Koroibete, Kuridrani, Kaino, Sivivatu, Rokocoko, Muliaina, Collins, Mehrtens, would have played for New Zealand? Pocock and Genia wouldn't have played for Oz? Mtawarira, Skinstadt, Mujati wouldn't have played for South Africa?

I do not think it is necessary for a player to be born in a country to be able to play for that country. But I do think a player should go through the naturalization period as is law in that country. So if a country requires a foreign immigrant to live in the country for 5 years before they can be a citizen, then the player should also live and play in that country for 5 years.... in some countries it is 7 years. Personally I feel that a player should carry the passport of the country he plays for.

[bok_viking]

The scots are by far the worst offenders, select a kiwi, instantly making the guy less valuable to kiwi teams, give him one game, then cut ties.

They must be on for 20+ in the last decade, kebble, Duhan, Steyn, Haining, Thompson, Johnson, Skinner, Lang, Burleigh, McGuigan, Hamilton, Harris, Hardie, Nel, Strauss, Dell, Berghan, Du preez, Grigg, Marfo, Holmes, Watson, Cusack, Toolis.

Yeh, that's 24, all in the last 5 years, they've capped far more non scots than scots. Its a mockery

So are you of the 'must be born in the country to represent the country' point of view?

So none of Frizzell, Naholo, Koroibete, Kuridrani, Kaino, Sivivatu, Rokocoko, Muliaina, Collins, Mehrtens, would have played for New Zealand? Pocock and Genia wouldn't have played for Oz? Mtawarira, Skinstadt, Mujati wouldn't have played for South Africa?

I do not think it is necessary for a player to be born in a country to be able to play for that country. But I do think a player should go through the naturalization period as is law in that country. So if a country requires a foreign immigrant to live in the country for 5 years before they can be a citizen, then the player should also live and play in that country for 5 years.... in some countries it is 7 years. Personally I feel that a player should carry the passport of the country he plays for. Although that is still a problem with people who can easily get passports through ancestry. So it is a difficult one to fix. But i think they have to increase the period for a player to play in another country before they can be selected for that country. The current rules are to easy to change the country you can play for.

[GogLais]

It's struck me that football fans will support their team wholeheartedly even if not a single player comes from their locality, I'm not sure why that differs from our attitude towards national teams. Parentage yes, grandparentage not so sure, five years residence works for me.

[Sandstorm]

It's ok if they get beaten.

bump

[clydecloggie]

The scots are by far the worst offenders, select a kiwi, instantly making the guy less valuable to kiwi teams, give him one game, then cut ties.

They must be on for 20+ in the last decade, kebble, Duhan, Steyn, Haining, Thompson, Johnson, Skinner, Lang, Burleigh, McGuigan, Hamilton, Harris, Hardie, Nel, Strauss, Dell, Berghan, Du preez, Grigg, Marfo, Holmes, Watson, Cusack, Toolis.

Yeh, that's 24, all in the last 5 years, they've capped far more non scots than scots. Its a mockery

Bloody heck, I didn't know it was that bad.

If you're going to stretch your indignation that far, don't forget to include Ali Price and Huw Jones who qualify on similar grounds to people on that list.

Probably the only proper project players on that list would be Kebble, Duhan, Nel and Strauss, i.e. signed with an eye on future qualification through residency to solve a selection headache. Johnson for instance qualifies on residency but is a completely different story - no-one thought he'd ever get as far as he has and he initially came over on a short-term squad-filler contract.

Skinner, Watson, Harris etc. - what are you on about? Unless you think anyone born and/or raised on the island of Great Britain should only automatically qualify for England.