NPR

Meanwhile in Tory alternate reality.

Your employer must be purged, your mortgage must be purged, your pension must be purged (government debt must not be purged though, that must be heavily expanded). All because of the last 10 years, which was all the fault of the BoE not the Tories.

_Os_ wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:14 am Meanwhile in Tory alternate reality.

Your employer must be purged, your mortgage must be purged, your pension must be purged (government debt must not be purged though, that must be heavily expanded). All because of the last 10 years, which was all the fault of the BoE not the Tories.

Lilico is a total mentalist....

... But, capitalism does rely on some creative destruction from time to time and bubbles do need to be the popped. The Western economies do need money moved from unproductive assets (zombie companies, mortgages) into productive assets (ideas, growth companies). Because otherwise capitalism would collapse in on itself... Again.

But the problem is central banks and policy makers have inflated bubbles relentlessly so people don't want their livelihoods creatively destroyed. It's a pickle.

So here we have it folks. The last 6 days are down to Putin and the global energy crisis. We;ll that's the line she's used in all her regional radio interviews this morning.
Batshit delusional!!!

Truss suggests Putin primarily to blame for UK's economic crisis
Next we go to BBC Radio Bristol, where James Hanson is presenting.

Liz Truss is delivering the spiel about cutting energy bills.

Q: The Bank of England has had to step in to clean up the mess you caused. This has never happened.

Truss says we are facing a difficult global situation.

Q: But this is not about Putin?

Truss says this is about Putin and the war in Ukraine.

She claims the “vast majority” of the package announced on Friday was about energy support.

Q: You did not have to make it worse. You spooked the markets. Can you guarantee that pensions are safe?

Truss says the Bank of England does a very good job delivering financial stablility.

She says:

This is a global financial situation. Currencies are under pressure around the world.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:41 pm

_Os_ wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:50 pm

I like neeps wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:36 pm

After creating policies that screw the young the Tories thought they'd do their bit for intergenerational fairness and screw the oldies too. Fair play Liz, fair play.

Looks like it was stemmed using reserves to buy 30 year UK bonds, but the UK reserve isn't large (£200bn?). So my question is, if there's no u-turn and the two morons continue hiding. Then how long can the BoE continue using their reserves to buy 30 year UK bonds (I have no clue how big the market is they're trying to hold up), they plan to keep going into October, but if the two morons are still hammering away can they keep going until deep into 2024 when there's an election? They could just get printing maybe, but more QE will boost inflation.

Seems a bit like putting a finger in the dyke and hoping something comes along (Kamikhazi 's removal and a climb down)?

So that's the £, housing market, SME loans, and pensions ... all gambled on tax cuts slanted towards the ultra wealthy who already weren't heavily taxed at all, will produce growth to close the deficit they've blown open and will then reduce borrowing.

Spot on. A point I've just made in a circular. Printing money to swallow up the Tories debt mountain was an easy-ish ride whilst inflation/interest rates were low. And even then the BofE had started unwinding its position a few months back because 14 years of Banana Republic economics had to come to an end.

Good to meet again Torq.

I haven't had the time to try and work out how the 30 year bond buying was funded. Some reports are saying from reserves, others are saying from some form of QE, either way it's just a short term fix. I've found a report saying there's £1.5 trillion of UK pension assets hedged in LDIs (Liability Driven Investment), which seem to be the issue here (pensions hedging liabilities, yields on bonds rise sharply as there's reduced demand because of the huge supply of new UK bonds the two morons intend adding, triggering collateral calls for margin payments). Much like the entire mortgage market (£1.6 trillion) that's surely too big for any intervention to stop collapsing long term? If confidence is lost in the UK it seems unlikely the BoE can somehow keep holding back the tide forever, the US and Euro zone are definitely exposed and must be preparing themselves.

Maybe there's 2 weeks or a month in this limbo, where the two morons are trying to hide and hope it goes away, and if there's still no climb down then a collapse?

I would count this as a second order impact. something that could've been seen with enough knowledge (which I do not have, so didn't see coming at all). If this is what the two morons are committed to there'll be more of these. Then there's the third order impacts which no one sees coming.

I like neeps wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:35 am

_Os_ wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:14 am Meanwhile in Tory alternate reality.

Your employer must be purged, your mortgage must be purged, your pension must be purged (government debt must not be purged though, that must be heavily expanded). All because of the last 10 years, which was all the fault of the BoE not the Tories.

Lilico is a total mentalist....

... But, capitalism does rely on some creative destruction from time to time and bubbles do need to be the popped. The Western economies do need money moved from unproductive assets (zombie companies, mortgages) into productive assets (ideas, growth companies). Because otherwise capitalism would collapse in on itself... Again.

But the problem is central banks and policy makers have inflated bubbles relentlessly so people don't want their livelihoods creatively destroyed. It's a pickle.

Be careful of the ZANU-PF solution, which is what Lilico is about really. He thinks you can take a complicated but entirely solvable issue, and violently smash everything to pieces then grind the pieces into dust, then somehow from that nothing you can build a much better future than if there hadn't been the violent smashing at all. He has a violent revolutionary mindset, a lot of Tories do now, especially the type now in power.

There's a big difference between 5 years or so at an average Bank Rate of 3% combined with some fiscal tightening (but not austerity that will harm growth), and total madmen immediately demanding 7% along with debt fuelled growth (or more likely no growth and just the debt) combined with austerity MK2. I've seen Tories demanding DEFRA is entirely ended as part of their coming austerity drive.

I must admit that this thread has made me smile a few times in the last months with the ludicrous conspiracy theories, particularly from the likes of dpidin, neeps, os and Saint.

And here we are.... fucking hell, I, obviously naively, thought none of this could actually happen in our country.

_Os_ wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:12 am

I like neeps wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:35 am

_Os_ wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:14 am Meanwhile in Tory alternate reality.

Your employer must be purged, your mortgage must be purged, your pension must be purged (government debt must not be purged though, that must be heavily expanded). All because of the last 10 years, which was all the fault of the BoE not the Tories.

Lilico is a total mentalist....

... But, capitalism does rely on some creative destruction from time to time and bubbles do need to be the popped. The Western economies do need money moved from unproductive assets (zombie companies, mortgages) into productive assets (ideas, growth companies). Because otherwise capitalism would collapse in on itself... Again.

But the problem is central banks and policy makers have inflated bubbles relentlessly so people don't want their livelihoods creatively destroyed. It's a pickle.

Be careful of the ZANU-PF solution, which is what Lilico is about really. He thinks you can take a complicated but entirely solvable issue, and violently smash everything to pieces then grind the pieces into dust, then somehow from that nothing you can build a much better future than if there hadn't been the violent smashing at all. He has a violent revolutionary mindset, a lot of Tories do now, especially the type now in power.

There's a big difference between 5 years or so at an average Bank Rate of 3% combined with some fiscal tightening (but not austerity that will harm growth), and total madmen immediately demanding 7% along with debt fuelled growth (or more likely no growth and just the debt) combined with austerity MK2. I've seen Tories demanding DEFRA is entirely ended as part of their coming austerity drive.

I don't agree with his solutions at all but he has at least identified the problem. An ultra low interest rate environment and asset bubbles are bad for the economy.

For example - cheap borrowing meant capital was allocated towards capital which policy encouraged and that meant capital was not productive and asset wealth inequality acted as an anchor on the economy. Bad!

Mortgage prices collapses meaning people's retirement security and savings and disposable income are washed away due to crazy policy. Also bad!

Slick wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:23 am I must admit that this thread has made me smile a few times in the last months with the ludicrous conspiracy theories, particularly from the likes of dpidin, neeps, os and Saint.

And here we are.... fucking hell, I, obviously naively, thought none of this could actually happen in our country.

Cheers mate - I too wish I had been completely wrong about all of this. We have in effect had a right wing coup in this country and are now run by a bunch of zealots and ideologues who are backed by shady right wing funding via Tufton Street 'Think Tanks'. The appointments of Taxpayer Alliance and IEA economists as PM and Gov advisors and the sacking over the last few years of the key sensible civil servants has been about putting their guys/operatives in place to enact this economic shitfest. The warnings from Biden, IMF, EU etc are not just about the mini budget but more general warnings about these nutters plans for the UK. The markets know and have reacted. Nothing will change until Truss, Kamikaze and the rest are ousted and it needs to happen very very quickly. Putin is laughing ....

Slick wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:23 am I must admit that this thread has made me smile a few times in the last months with the ludicrous conspiracy theories, particularly from the likes of dpidin, neeps, os and Saint.

And here we are.... fucking hell, I, obviously naively, thought none of this could actually happen in our country.

I'm surprised people didn't realise it is the logical end point to 5 years of the Tories taking an axe to all the things that could stop this happening in our country...

Slick wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:23 am I must admit that this thread has made me smile a few times in the last months with the ludicrous conspiracy theories, particularly from the likes of dpidin, neeps, os and Saint.

And here we are.... fucking hell, I, obviously naively, thought none of this could actually happen in our country.

I dunno about the conspiracy theories, I still put it down to us being managed by the absolute dregs of an already weak political class.

The moron speaks.

You know it must be bad when...

The thing is, they haven't even done anything yet, they've tanked the economy just by saying what they are going to do.

dpedin wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:03 am

Slick wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:23 am I must admit that this thread has made me smile a few times in the last months with the ludicrous conspiracy theories, particularly from the likes of dpidin, neeps, os and Saint.

And here we are.... fucking hell, I, obviously naively, thought none of this could actually happen in our country.

Cheers mate - I too wish I had been completely wrong about all of this. We have in effect had a right wing coup in this country and are now run by a bunch of zealots and ideologues who are backed by shady right wing funding via Tufton Street 'Think Tanks'. The appointments of Taxpayer Alliance and IEA economists as PM and Gov advisors and the sacking over the last few years of the key sensible civil servants has been about putting their guys/operatives in place to enact this economic shitfest. The warnings from Biden, IMF, EU etc are not just about the mini budget but more general warnings about these nutters plans for the UK. The markets know and have reacted. Nothing will change until Truss, Kamikaze and the rest are ousted and it needs to happen very very quickly. Putin is laughing ....

I think the complete removal of all dissenting voices from the Party, when they selected their candidates; was when the red light started flashing. That combined with the sweeping powers, that enabled the Government to ignore the Parliament, & just plough on without any consent.

Add in the complete lack of talent, & frankly scary rhetoric coming from, not just irrelevant nutters on the back benches, but from the highest Offices of State; & shit like this went from impossible, to improbably, to possible, to policy.

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:20 am You know it must be bad when...

Yep! Political journalists and commentators from either side of the political divide in agreement that her interview round was like 8 consecutive car crashes!!
Can't wait for the round of TC interviews at 5:00pm today

robmatic wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:16 am

Slick wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:23 am I must admit that this thread has made me smile a few times in the last months with the ludicrous conspiracy theories, particularly from the likes of dpidin, neeps, os and Saint.

And here we are.... fucking hell, I, obviously naively, thought none of this could actually happen in our country.

I dunno about the conspiracy theories, I still put it down to us being managed by the absolute dregs of an already weak political class.

Thing is, we haven't accidentally ended up with this lot, and they're not a random collection of weirdos. They've been boosted and promoted and given power for ideological reasons. And the better alternatives have been drummed out for similar reasons.

You are absolutely right that they're the absolute dregs of an already weak political class. But the conspiracy theories - so to speak - are largely correct about the path taken to this point.

I like neeps wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:14 am

Slick wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:23 am I must admit that this thread has made me smile a few times in the last months with the ludicrous conspiracy theories, particularly from the likes of dpidin, neeps, os and Saint.

And here we are.... fucking hell, I, obviously naively, thought none of this could actually happen in our country.

I'm surprised people didn't realise it is the logical end point to 5 years of the Tories taking an axe to all the things that could stop this happening in our country...

I think I just must be a nice bloke, unlike you.

Or stupid. There is always stupid

I like neeps wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:00 am I don't agree with his solutions at all but he has at least identified the problem. An ultra low interest rate environment and asset bubbles are bad for the economy.

For example - cheap borrowing meant capital was allocated towards capital which policy encouraged and that meant capital was not productive and asset wealth inequality acted as an anchor on the economy. Bad!

Mortgage prices collapses meaning people's retirement security and savings and disposable income are washed away due to crazy policy. Also bad!

Agreed.

And how are asset bubbles prevented from forming? Taxes must play a role, because it's just not true highly wealthy people reinvest more of their wealth into the productive economy the more wealth they have. Regulation of the market that makes being a small player a viable proposition (see French regulations around retail that make space for small players by preventing supermarkets selling items at a loss to lure customers etc), there has to be a productive economy that's actually accessible to people without leveraging up to the eyeballs. What are the Tories against, taxes and regulation.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:35 am

robmatic wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:16 am

Slick wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:23 am I must admit that this thread has made me smile a few times in the last months with the ludicrous conspiracy theories, particularly from the likes of dpidin, neeps, os and Saint.

And here we are.... fucking hell, I, obviously naively, thought none of this could actually happen in our country.

I dunno about the conspiracy theories, I still put it down to us being managed by the absolute dregs of an already weak political class.

Thing is, we haven't accidentally ended up with this lot, and they're not a random collection of weirdos. They've been boosted and promoted and given power for ideological reasons. And the better alternatives have been drummed out for similar reasons.

You are absolutely right that they're the absolute dregs of an already weak political class. But the conspiracy theories - so to speak - are largely correct about the path taken to this point.

Yeah, conspiracy theory was probably the wrong choice of phrase, but the predictions of where this was heading seemed outlandish to a lot of people until we got here

That's always been the scary thing about this generation of Tories.

They're ideologues who have pretty quickly consolidated their grip on the party. Any true conservatism is long gone. These people are prepared to risk burning it all down to pursue their ideals. None of it is remotely rational. The extent of how much they can break by the next election is frightening.

Slick wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:38 am

I like neeps wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:14 am

Slick wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:23 am I must admit that this thread has made me smile a few times in the last months with the ludicrous conspiracy theories, particularly from the likes of dpidin, neeps, os and Saint.

And here we are.... fucking hell, I, obviously naively, thought none of this could actually happen in our country.

I'm surprised people didn't realise it is the logical end point to 5 years of the Tories taking an axe to all the things that could stop this happening in our country...

I think I just must be a nice bloke, unlike you.

Or stupid. There is always stupid

It's simpler than that. Most people simply don't want this shit to be true at a fundamental level so the instinctive response is to push back. It's only once you get into the weeds of these things that you realise that yes, there is a pattern here, and a quite overwhelming amount of information that all points in one direction.

For example, if 2 years ago we'd complained about the influence that Tuften Street / the IEA has on UK TV and newspapers, you'd have probably not given a shit (and fair enough). Who cares about swivel-eyed political wonkey like that? But... it's true. And it does have an impact. Of the level of Farage being given all that time and space in our media, and beyond. And that's just a small part of the concerted push towards this end.

Slick wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:39 am Yeah, conspiracy theory was probably the wrong choice of phrase, but the predictions of where this was heading seemed outlandish to a lot of people until we got here

Very hard to explain it without coming across as a frothing loon, and most people who are of these opinions care deeply so can sound a bit like zealots themselves.

Os does a great job laying out the facts but most people aren't able to explain things like Os. Most "public" figures - by which I mean media + social media types - who try and do the same are easily dismissed as cranks or one-eyed, and not always unfairly. When the dominant and mainstream opinion is shaped largely by the captured broadcast media, it's hard for any real education or discussion to take place.

Brexit was a revolution. We are now being governed by revolutionary zealots.

If we are not careful the country can end up in a really bad place quicker than we could imagine.

I honestly think we will have done well if we get to the next election without blood in the streets.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:43 am

Slick wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:38 am

I like neeps wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:14 am

I'm surprised people didn't realise it is the logical end point to 5 years of the Tories taking an axe to all the things that could stop this happening in our country...

I think I just must be a nice bloke, unlike you.

Or stupid. There is always stupid

It's simpler than that. Most people simply don't want this shit to be true at a fundamental level so the instinctive response is to push back. It's only once you get into the weeds of these things that you realise that yes, there is a pattern here, and a quite overwhelming amount of information that all points in one direction.

For example, if 2 years ago we'd complained about the influence that Tuften Street / the IEA has on UK TV and newspapers, you'd have probably not given a shit (and fair enough). Who cares about swivel-eyed political wonkey like that? But... it's true. And it does have an impact. Of the level of Farage being given all that time and space in our media, and beyond. And that's just a small part of the concerted push towards this end.

Agree JMK.

I realize things are shit because I'm a renter, who volunteers for charities and weekly deals with victims of Tory policy and then read the FT and New Statesman.

It would be nice if you could suspend disbelieve, so I know why people do it.

It's a little bit like the push back against fascism and extreme right wing ideologies / nazis et al. Years back, anyone kicking up a fuss about the emergence of these groups and the fascist tendencies of some major governments, parties, and forces would be treated as an absolute eejit. I remember pontifex on the old board mocking anyone who used the word Nazi to describe the early emergence of some of the scumbag groups in the USA.

Now, of course, we know better. We have Orban and Meloni, Le Pen, bonkers Q-Anon groups, the attempted coup in the USA, and so on. We have just had a home secretary obsessed with treating immigrants and refugees like vermin, replaced by an even bigger arsehole. We've had Steve Bannon's influence across Europe laid bare. We have far-right groups getting mainstream attention in major Western countries. We have Fox News going full "mask off". People recognise it is a genuine problem. But the warning signs have been there for years and years.

Mind you, the last I remember from Pontifex was him swallowing a lie from a far right politician and claiming to feel unsafe in Germany because of the muslims so that wasn't a shock

I see Dizzy Lizzie’s morning round of interviews was a complete success

So Truss was probably out of the public eye for a few days being intensively rehearsed no doubt for these interviews. That worked well...

edit - Homer beat me to it - Doh!

To paraphrase Joe Lycet She slayed it in this one go girl!

Lobby wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:20 am I see Dizzy Lizzie’s morning round of interviews was a complete success

If you're playing poker, & you are thinking about getting up from the table, & then down sits a well dressed, but very, very drunk bloke, with a big stack of chips sits down at the table; you stay at the table until all those chips are gone !!!

The BoE is the big stack of chips, & until someone pulls the drunken fool away from the table; the market isn't going to stop taking the money.

tabascoboy wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:26 am So Truss was probably out of the public eye for a few days being intensively rehearsed no doubt for these interviews. That worked well...

Exactly, and it shows how deep they are in the Tory alternate reality.

It seems they thought this isn't a big deal, so some provincial journalists would be much easier to face than someone from within the Westminster bubble.

The provincial journalists then brutalised the moron with straightforward, short, simple questions directly related to their listeners immediate economic future. Zero Westminster bubble bullshit and deference just because she's Prime Moron.

yermum wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:35 am

To paraphrase Joe Lycet She slayed it in this one go girl!

This is just as bad. What must her MPs be thinking?!

I like neeps wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:49 am

This is just as bad. What must her MPs be thinking?!

"That's me fucked at the next election, then"

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:56 am

I like neeps wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:49 am

This is just as bad. What must her MPs be thinking?!

"That's me fucked at the next election, then"

This is my worry. They lose if they continue on her path and they lose if they boot her out after a month. So their career can't demand action in this case as it's done either way. There's no self preservation in play as they're toast.

The Liz shit show is due to continue this afternoon.

From the BBC:

"BBC Radio Nottingham's Sarah Julian summed up the feelings of her audience: "People were worried whether they could heat their homes. They're now worried whether they can keep their homes."

The PM now faces a series of face-to-face TV interviews with the BBC's regional political editors, with the footage released later this afternoon."

So we''ll get to see her squirming and failing to answer direct questions as well as hearing her.

_Os_ wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:43 am

tabascoboy wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:26 am So Truss was probably out of the public eye for a few days being intensively rehearsed no doubt for these interviews. That worked well...

Exactly, and it shows how deep they are in the Tory alternate reality.

It seems they thought this isn't a big deal, so some provincial journalists would be much easier to face than someone from within the Westminster bubble.

The provincial journalists then brutalised the moron with straightforward, short, simple questions directly related to their listeners immediate economic future. Zero Westminster bubble bullshit and deference just because she's Prime Moron.

Spot on and which a number of Westminster commentators pointed out might just happen before she started her series of car crashes!!!!

Time for a positive Covid test !

Quite a nice display of why being a regional or provincial journalist doesn't mean you're not as smart or as informed or as incisive as the big name journos

Lobby wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:07 am The Liz shit show is due to continue this afternoon.

From the BBC:

"BBC Radio Nottingham's Sarah Julian summed up the feelings of her audience: "People were worried whether they could heat their homes. They're now worried whether they can keep their homes."

The PM now faces a series of face-to-face TV interviews with the BBC's regional political editors, with the footage released later this afternoon."

So we''ll get to see her squirming and failing to answer direct questions as well as hearing her.

Her media director is Jason Stein... the one who did Prince Andrews Maitlis interviews. So expect her to say she can't have crashed the markets as she was in Carlisle's Wagamama on Friday. Or catch covid like Andy did before the jubilee.