Leinster v Saracens - European Champions Cup

[JM2K6]

Being honest about players' failings at international and club level doesn't mean not acknowledging their worth to the clubs they play for. For example, Alex Goode's shithouse defence and aerial work is meaningless in the context of the Saracens back 3 and their up-front tackling, teams rarely have the kicking game to expose him or the running game to breach the Saracens defensive line enough to make him tackle, but at international level those failings were exposed time and again; however, his running and passing ability has been absolutely crucial to his club team because of who they pick elsewhere in the backline. Brad Barritt's lack of pace and lack of passing ability simply don't matter to Saracens when Farrell and Goode (or Daly) are there to distribute, and there's no doubt he's a decent straight line ball carrier and a brilliant defensive fulcrum. Again, great at club level, ultimately exposed at international level. Wigglesworth has the best kicking game of a 9 I can think of, and Saracens' game is based around it; his lack of pace and inability to keep opposition backrows honest is an irrelevance most of the time to Sarries.

Jackson Wray is still pretty shit though, he really does just disappear when the going gets tough. Loved finding out he was captain when Quins absolutely butchered Sarries pre-Covid. Still, he's a warm body who knows the Sarries system really well, probably a good guy to have in the changing room, and is quite durable - maybe he is also cheap? It's possible! Every club side needs guys who are miles off international class but can do a job on a day to day basis. Unless that job requires winning turnovers or making big carries, I suppose.

But here's the thing, it doesn't matter what I think, or what heaps of other people think, or what several international coaches think, or the people who vote on and give awards and that: what matters is that these guys are clearly very important to Saracens, in most cases have lots of international caps and loads more club caps, and so they'll be compensated accordingly.

[Kawazaki]

Being honest about players' failings at international and club level doesn't mean not acknowledging their worth to the clubs they play for. For example, Alex Goode's shithouse defence and aerial work is meaningless in the context of the Saracens back 3 and their up-front tackling, teams rarely have the kicking game to expose him or the running game to breach the Saracens defensive line enough to make him tackle, but at international level those failings were exposed time and again; however, his running and passing ability has been absolutely crucial to his club team because of who they pick elsewhere in the backline. Brad Barritt's lack of pace and lack of passing ability simply don't matter to Saracens when Farrell and Goode (or Daly) are there to distribute, and there's no doubt he's a decent straight line ball carrier and a brilliant defensive fulcrum. Again, great at club level, ultimately exposed at international level. Wigglesworth has the best kicking game of a 9 I can think of, and Saracens' game is based around it; his lack of pace and inability to keep opposition backrows honest is an irrelevance most of the time to Sarries.

Jackson Wray is still pretty shit though, he really does just disappear when the going gets tough. Loved finding out he was captain when Quins absolutely butchered Sarries pre-Covid. Still, he's a warm body who knows the Sarries system really well, probably a good guy to have in the changing room, and is quite durable - maybe he is also cheap? It's possible! Every club side needs guys who are miles off international class but can do a job on a day to day basis. Unless that job requires winning turnovers or making big carries, I suppose.

But here's the thing, it doesn't matter what I think, or what heaps of other people think, or what several international coaches think, or the people who vote on and give awards and that: what matters is that these guys are clearly very important to Saracens, in most cases have lots of international caps and loads more club caps, and so they'll be compensated accordingly.

Interesting that a Leinster team packed full of current Irish internationals on a 26-match unbeaten season playing at home in Dublin can't exploit these 'shithouse' weaknesses that players judged not good enough to play test level rugby have, especially if they're playing out of position.

[JM2K6]

Being honest about players' failings at international and club level doesn't mean not acknowledging their worth to the clubs they play for. For example, Alex Goode's shithouse defence and aerial work is meaningless in the context of the Saracens back 3 and their up-front tackling, teams rarely have the kicking game to expose him or the running game to breach the Saracens defensive line enough to make him tackle, but at international level those failings were exposed time and again; however, his running and passing ability has been absolutely crucial to his club team because of who they pick elsewhere in the backline. Brad Barritt's lack of pace and lack of passing ability simply don't matter to Saracens when Farrell and Goode (or Daly) are there to distribute, and there's no doubt he's a decent straight line ball carrier and a brilliant defensive fulcrum. Again, great at club level, ultimately exposed at international level. Wigglesworth has the best kicking game of a 9 I can think of, and Saracens' game is based around it; his lack of pace and inability to keep opposition backrows honest is an irrelevance most of the time to Sarries.

Jackson Wray is still pretty shit though, he really does just disappear when the going gets tough. Loved finding out he was captain when Quins absolutely butchered Sarries pre-Covid. Still, he's a warm body who knows the Sarries system really well, probably a good guy to have in the changing room, and is quite durable - maybe he is also cheap? It's possible! Every club side needs guys who are miles off international class but can do a job on a day to day basis. Unless that job requires winning turnovers or making big carries, I suppose.

But here's the thing, it doesn't matter what I think, or what heaps of other people think, or what several international coaches think, or the people who vote on and give awards and that: what matters is that these guys are clearly very important to Saracens, in most cases have lots of international caps and loads more club caps, and so they'll be compensated accordingly.

Interesting that a Leinster team packed full of current Irish internationals on a 26-match unbeaten season playing at home in Dublin can't exploit these 'shithouse' weaknesses that players judged not good enough to play test level rugby have, especially if they're playing out of position.

Yup, they were pretty poor. Jonny Sexton in particular played like the shambling re-animated corpse of Jonny Sexton (although still fast enough to get away from Jackson Wray then pummel him into the turf with a hand-off). McGrath's kicking game wasn't great, Leinster's attacking play was predictable, and they fed Sarries' strengths (and got butchered at the scrum by the Lions & RWC-winning front row, which certainly didn't help matters).

Saracens recognised Goode's defensive weaknesses, btw. Which is why he didn't defend the 10 channel and had to make exactly zero tackles all game. Wigglesworth had to make all of 2(!). Despite Leinster having a large amount of posession and the rest of the team making huge numbers of tackles.

Funny that.

Club rugby isn't international rugby. Never has been. Never will be. Doesn't matter how good a club side is, Test rugby is a step up in speed and intensity and players whose weaknesses can be accommodated at club level turn into liabilities at international level. C'est la vie.

[Kawazaki]

Being honest about players' failings at international and club level doesn't mean not acknowledging their worth to the clubs they play for. For example, Alex Goode's shithouse defence and aerial work is meaningless in the context of the Saracens back 3 and their up-front tackling, teams rarely have the kicking game to expose him or the running game to breach the Saracens defensive line enough to make him tackle, but at international level those failings were exposed time and again; however, his running and passing ability has been absolutely crucial to his club team because of who they pick elsewhere in the backline. Brad Barritt's lack of pace and lack of passing ability simply don't matter to Saracens when Farrell and Goode (or Daly) are there to distribute, and there's no doubt he's a decent straight line ball carrier and a brilliant defensive fulcrum. Again, great at club level, ultimately exposed at international level. Wigglesworth has the best kicking game of a 9 I can think of, and Saracens' game is based around it; his lack of pace and inability to keep opposition backrows honest is an irrelevance most of the time to Sarries.

Jackson Wray is still pretty shit though, he really does just disappear when the going gets tough. Loved finding out he was captain when Quins absolutely butchered Sarries pre-Covid. Still, he's a warm body who knows the Sarries system really well, probably a good guy to have in the changing room, and is quite durable - maybe he is also cheap? It's possible! Every club side needs guys who are miles off international class but can do a job on a day to day basis. Unless that job requires winning turnovers or making big carries, I suppose.

But here's the thing, it doesn't matter what I think, or what heaps of other people think, or what several international coaches think, or the people who vote on and give awards and that: what matters is that these guys are clearly very important to Saracens, in most cases have lots of international caps and loads more club caps, and so they'll be compensated accordingly.

Interesting that a Leinster team packed full of current Irish internationals on a 26-match unbeaten season playing at home in Dublin can't exploit these 'shithouse' weaknesses that players judged not good enough to play test level rugby have, especially if they're playing out of position.

Yup, they were pretty poor. Jonny Sexton in particular played like the shambling re-animated corpse of Jonny Sexton (although still fast enough to get away from Jackson Wray then pummel him into the turf with a hand-off). McGrath's kicking game wasn't great, Leinster's attacking play was predictable, and they fed Sarries' strengths (and got butchered at the scrum by the Lions & RWC-winning front row, which certainly didn't help matters).

Saracens recognised Goode's defensive weaknesses, btw. Which is why he didn't defend the 10 channel and had to make exactly zero tackles all game. Wigglesworth had to make all of 2(!). Despite Leinster having a large amount of posession and the rest of the team making huge numbers of tackles.

Funny that.

Club rugby isn't international rugby. Never has been. Never will be. Doesn't matter how good a club side is, Test rugby is a step up in speed and intensity and players whose weaknesses can be accommodated at club level turn into liabilities at international level. C'est la vie.

In the Premiership you might have a point where the average standard is pitiful. This is the latter stages of the big boys competition though and it's comparable to test standard.

[Kawazaki]

p.s as a thought experiment, try to imagine Mike Brown moving from fullback to playing flyhalf.

[JM2K6]

It really isn't.

Still, you're managing to get yourself into an awful muddle. You've still not explained how these highly decorated, multiple-title-winning, years-of-international-caps having club stalwarts playing a QF are a) proof that money doesn't have anything to do with Saracens' success, or b) proof that Saracens had to play a dramatically weakened team.

If that's a weakened team then Saracens' squad must be truly ridiculous. And very expensive.

[JM2K6]

p.s as a thought experiment, try to imagine Mike Brown moving from fullback to playing flyhalf.

It would go terribly.

Now imagine Alex Goode playing on the wing

[Kawazaki]

It really isn't.

Still, you're managing to get yourself into an awful muddle. You've still not explained how these highly decorated, multiple-title-winning, years-of-international-caps having club stalwarts playing a QF are a) proof that money doesn't have anything to do with Saracens' success, or b) proof that Saracens had to play a dramatically weakened team.

If that's a weakened team then Saracens' squad must be truly ridiculous. And very expensive.

JPR Williams was a fine player once, loads of Welsh and Lions caps, but that is no guaranteed that he'd be able to play now like he did in his prime. I reckon you'd get him quite cheaply though. It's what happens as players get older.

[JM2K6]

It really isn't.

Still, you're managing to get yourself into an awful muddle. You've still not explained how these highly decorated, multiple-title-winning, years-of-international-caps having club stalwarts playing a QF are a) proof that money doesn't have anything to do with Saracens' success, or b) proof that Saracens had to play a dramatically weakened team.

If that's a weakened team then Saracens' squad must be truly ridiculous. And very expensive.

JPR Williams was a fine player once, loads of Welsh and Lions caps, but that is no guaranteed that he'd be able to play now like he did in his prime.

Hmm yes let's compare someone retired for decades with people who played major roles for Saracens/their other club this year and in previous years and are in their early 30s

That's a slam dunk, that one

They definitely get their pay docked once they turn 30, too

[SaintK]

Interesting that a Leinster team packed full of current Irish internationals on a 26-match unbeaten season playing at home in Dublin can't exploit these 'shithouse' weaknesses that players judged not good enough to play test level rugby have, especially if they're playing out of position.

Yup, they were pretty poor. Jonny Sexton in particular played like the shambling re-animated corpse of Jonny Sexton (although still fast enough to get away from Jackson Wray then pummel him into the turf with a hand-off). McGrath's kicking game wasn't great, Leinster's attacking play was predictable, and they fed Sarries' strengths (and got butchered at the scrum by the Lions & RWC-winning front row, which certainly didn't help matters).

Saracens recognised Goode's defensive weaknesses, btw. Which is why he didn't defend the 10 channel and had to make exactly zero tackles all game. Wigglesworth had to make all of 2(!). Despite Leinster having a large amount of posession and the rest of the team making huge numbers of tackles.

Funny that.

Club rugby isn't international rugby. Never has been. Never will be. Doesn't matter how good a club side is, Test rugby is a step up in speed and intensity and players whose weaknesses can be accommodated at club level turn into liabilities at international level. C'est la vie.

In the Premiership you might have a point where the average standard is pitiful. This is the latter stages of the big boys competition though and it's comparable to test standard.

Intense yes, but not test match intense

[Kawazaki]

It really isn't.

Still, you're managing to get yourself into an awful muddle. You've still not explained how these highly decorated, multiple-title-winning, years-of-international-caps having club stalwarts playing a QF are a) proof that money doesn't have anything to do with Saracens' success, or b) proof that Saracens had to play a dramatically weakened team.

If that's a weakened team then Saracens' squad must be truly ridiculous. And very expensive.

JPR Williams was a fine player once, loads of Welsh and Lions caps, but that is no guaranteed that he'd be able to play now like he did in his prime.

Hmm yes let's compare someone retired for decades with people who played major roles for Saracens/their other club this year and in previous years and are in their early 30s

That's a slam dunk, that one

They definitely get their pay docked once they turn 30, too

If you want specifics, Barritt and Wigglesworth are actually on pay-as-play contacts at they were supposed to retire in June.

[JM2K6]

They signed extensions to their existing contracts. Both widely reported as just extensions of their existing deals.

edit:

"I'm excited and delighted to announce that I've signed a contract extension until the end of the 2019/20 season," said Barritt, who has captained the side to their last two Premiership and European titles since taking the role in 2016.

You're such a bullshitter, Toga.

[Kawazaki]

They signed extensions to their existing contracts. Both widely reported as just extensions of their existing deals.

edit:

"I'm excited and delighted to announce that I've signed a contract extension until the end of the 2019/20 season," said Barritt, who has captained the side to their last two Premiership and European titles since taking the role in 2016.

You're such a bullshitter, Toga.

Exactly, he was due to retire in June.

[JM2K6]

They signed extensions to their existing contracts. Both widely reported as just extensions of their existing deals.

edit:

"I'm excited and delighted to announce that I've signed a contract extension until the end of the 2019/20 season," said Barritt, who has captained the side to their last two Premiership and European titles since taking the role in 2016.

You're such a bullshitter, Toga.

Exactly, he was due to retire in June.

You claimed they were on "pay as play" contracts. That's bullshit. They're still on their expensive deals.

[Kawazaki]

All you're doing is confirming what I said. They were due to retire in June.

[JM2K6]

No, you said they were on "pay-as-play" contracts, i.e. you get paid only if you play. Which is not what those deals are: they're simply extensions to the current contracts, because the season end has been delayed so they're extending the existing deal.

Which means your point is, well, pointless. These highly paid players continue to be highly paid right up until the end of the season.

[Kawazaki]

No, you said they were on "pay-as-play" contracts, i.e. you get paid only if you play. Which is not what those deals are: they're simply extensions to the current contracts, because the season end has been delayed so they're extending the existing deal.

Which means your point is, well, pointless. These highly paid players continue to be highly paid right up until the end of the season.

You've got no idea what they're paid. All they did was commit their playing registration to remain with Saracens beyond June to an unknown date in 2020. It's pay-as-you-play, they stop playing, they stop getting paid. It's not difficult to understand.

[JM2K6]

No, you said they were on "pay-as-play" contracts, i.e. you get paid only if you play. Which is not what those deals are: they're simply extensions to the current contracts, because the season end has been delayed so they're extending the existing deal.

Which means your point is, well, pointless. These highly paid players continue to be highly paid right up until the end of the season.

You've got no idea what they're paid. All they did was commit their playing registration to remain with Saracens beyond June to an unknown date in 2020. It's pay-as-you-play, they stop playing, they stop getting paid. It's not difficult to understand.

Their contract runs out when Saracens' season is over. That is not "pay-as-you-play" you absolute spoofer. They could skip the next match and still get paid.

But sure, you keep trying to persuade people that CLUB CAPTAIN BRAD BARRITT and BIG NAME SIGNING FROM TITLE WINNING RIVALS RICHARD WIGGLESWORTH are on cheap contracts. That'll go well.

[Kawazaki]

Well how much do they earn then?

[JM2K6]

Well how much do they earn then?

Saracens refused to open their books, so no-one knows. Wigglesworth was one of the beneficiaries of Uncle Nigel's largesse, mind, so there was a lot of money funneling into his pockets.

If your argument is that "actually, this big name player we convinced to leave his title-winning club came cheap, and his international career and success at Saracens, a lot of which was directly down to the supremacy of his kicking game, didn't increase his wages", then, well, I have a bridge to sell you.

Ditto Brad "multiple trophy winning club captain, former international, lynchpin of the entire defensive system the club's been built around" Barritt.

[Kawazaki]

Just say you haven't got a clue JMK. It's quicker.

[JM2K6]

Just say you haven't got a clue JMK. It's quicker.

No Toga, Saracens' blatant cheating and refusal to own up to the scale of it doesn't get to be used as a weapon to beat other people with. Wigglesworth was so valuable to Saracens that they literally broke the fucking rules for him. He is one of the reasons why they've been relegated, you muppet

But you carry on trying to make out that he and Barritt aren't being paid wages commensurate with their status, career, success level, and seniority in the club. I'm sure you're on to a winner.

Tea time. Have fun with that windmill.

[Kawazaki]

Just say you haven't got a clue JMK. It's quicker.

No Toga, Saracens' blatant cheating and refusal to own up to the scale of it doesn't get to be used as a weapon to beat other people with. Wigglesworth was so valuable to Saracens that they literally broke the fucking rules for him. He is one of the reasons why they've been relegated, you muppet

But you carry on trying to make out that he and Barritt aren't being paid wages commensurate with their status, career, success level, and seniority in the club. I'm sure you're on to a winner.

Tea time. Have fun with that windmill.

If Wigglesworth's game is so important to Saracens then why are they not renewing his contract beyond 2020?

[JM2K6]

Just say you haven't got a clue JMK. It's quicker.

No Toga, Saracens' blatant cheating and refusal to own up to the scale of it doesn't get to be used as a weapon to beat other people with. Wigglesworth was so valuable to Saracens that they literally broke the fucking rules for him. He is one of the reasons why they've been relegated, you muppet

But you carry on trying to make out that he and Barritt aren't being paid wages commensurate with their status, career, success level, and seniority in the club. I'm sure you're on to a winner.

Tea time. Have fun with that windmill.

If Wigglesworth's game is so important to Saracens then why are they not renewing his contract beyond 2020?

...

...


...


BECAUSE HE IS OLD, HE COSTS THEM TOO MUCH MONEY IF THEY'RE PLANNING ON BEING LEGAL, AND THEY DONT NEED HIM TO WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP THEY'VE BEEN RELEGATED TO

jesus CHRIST

This food better be good. Bye.

[Kawazaki]

No Toga, Saracens' blatant cheating and refusal to own up to the scale of it doesn't get to be used as a weapon to beat other people with. Wigglesworth was so valuable to Saracens that they literally broke the fucking rules for him. He is one of the reasons why they've been relegated, you muppet

But you carry on trying to make out that he and Barritt aren't being paid wages commensurate with their status, career, success level, and seniority in the club. I'm sure you're on to a winner.

Tea time. Have fun with that windmill.

If Wigglesworth's game is so important to Saracens then why are they not renewing his contract beyond 2020?

...

...


...


BECAUSE HE IS OLD, HE COSTS THEM TOO MUCH MONEY IF THEY'RE PLANNING ON BEING LEGAL, AND THEY DONT NEED HIM TO WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP THEY'VE BEEN RELEGATED TO

jesus CHRIST

This food better be good. Bye.

A new contract has no relationship to an old one. What is the going rate for a 37 year old scrumhalf considered shite in 2015 by peerless judges like yourself anyway?

[JM2K6]

Fucking lol, of course new contracts are influenced by previous ones, players don't just accept anything they're given, and that goes triple for a guy who they literally funnelled hundreds of thousands of pounds of illegal payments to on top of his club salary because keeping him was more important than keeping to the salary cap

but more importantly, he's now 37, they'll be playing in the Championship, there's literally no reason to keep him and his wage bill around especially given they have a 10 years younger, 20-cap international scrumhalf in the squad already in Aled Davies

p.s. you're still completely failing to understand the "no longer up to it at international level doesn't mean you can't star at club level" thing. A literal baby could understand this.

[Uncle fester]

You do have to admire their astute recruitment and how they've interlocked these players together into a team that covers weaknesses of some players and accentuates their strengths but that kind of targeted recruitment doesn't come cheap.

The bevy of international superstars who backbone the team behind those players doesn't come cheap either.

[Kawazaki]

Fucking lol, of course new contracts are influenced by previous ones, players don't just accept anything they're given, and that goes triple for a guy who they literally funnelled hundreds of thousands of pounds of illegal payments to on top of his club salary because keeping him was more important than keeping to the salary cap

but more importantly, he's now 37, they'll be playing in the Championship, there's literally no reason to keep him and his wage bill around especially given they have a 10 years younger, 20-cap international scrumhalf in the squad already in Aled Davies

p.s. you're still completely failing to understand the "no longer up to it at international level doesn't mean you can't star at club level" thing. A literal baby could understand this.

I understand it. There are also plenty of players who aren't up to playing international level in the first place who, nonetheless keep getting selected to play international level regardless that they are shithouse for their clubs week-in well-out - even against mediocre opposition. We both know some good examples of those from the last decade don't we.

However, thinking that a 37 year old former test standard rugby player is worth the same wages as he was when he was a 27 year old current test player is something a 'literal' baby wouldn't understand, primarily because babies don't understand concepts like diminishing returns.

[Kawazaki]

You do have to admire their astute recruitment and how they've interlocked these players together into a team that covers weaknesses of some players and accentuates their strengths but that kind of targeted recruitment doesn't come cheap.

The bevy of international superstars who backbone the team behind those players doesn't come cheap either.

It starts with a good academy. Then having the courage to pick them.

[JM2K6]

Fucking lol, of course new contracts are influenced by previous ones, players don't just accept anything they're given, and that goes triple for a guy who they literally funnelled hundreds of thousands of pounds of illegal payments to on top of his club salary because keeping him was more important than keeping to the salary cap

but more importantly, he's now 37, they'll be playing in the Championship, there's literally no reason to keep him and his wage bill around especially given they have a 10 years younger, 20-cap international scrumhalf in the squad already in Aled Davies

p.s. you're still completely failing to understand the "no longer up to it at international level doesn't mean you can't star at club level" thing. A literal baby could understand this.

I understand it. There are also plenty of players who aren't up to playing international level in the first place who, nonetheless keep getting selected to play international level regardless that they are shithouse for their clubs week-in well-out - even against mediocre opposition. We both know some good examples of those from the last decade don't we.

However, thinking that a 37 year old former test standard rugby player is worth the same wages as he was when he was a 27 year old current test player is something a 'literal' baby wouldn't understand, primarily because babies don't understand concepts like diminishing returns.

Your wages do not go down when you are a successful starting player for a trophy winning team that's basing itself around your personal skillset. It is the work of a crazy person to argue otherwise. That crazy person would also have to be suffering severe head injury to make that argument about a player that the club literally broke the laws to funnel hundreds of thousands of pounds of extra money to a few years ago. No-one is claiming that were he to go for a new contract now that it would be the same value, because a) he's now very old, b) the club have found a replacement, and c) THEY'RE IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP NEXT SEASON AND COULD WIN IT WITH A PAPER CUT OUT OF DANNY CARE PLAYING AT 9 you monumental shitgibbon

[Kawazaki]

Glad you finally agree that he's not being paid anything like he was when he was younger. You catch on eventually.

[JM2K6]

Glad you finally agree that he's not being paid anything like he was when he was younger. You catch on eventually.

Errr... what? He's being paid whatever his last contract was paying him - you know, before it came out that Saracens were massive cheats and they suddenly had to care about the money they were spending, and had to face up to being in the Championship next season

Players don't get paid less each time a contract comes round if they're still playing all the time and winning things.

You asked what he'd be worth _now_ with a new contract for next season - not what his current contract is.

[Kawazaki]

Glad you finally agree that he's not being paid anything like he was when he was younger. You catch on eventually.

Errr... what? He's being paid whatever his last contract was paying him - you know, before it came out that Saracens were massive cheats and they suddenly had to care about the money they were spending, and had to face up to being in the Championship next season

Players don't get paid less each time a contract comes round if they're still playing all the time and winning things.

You asked what he'd be worth _now_ with a new contract for next season - not what his current contract is.

Yes, you keep repeating this. He's been at Saracens since he was 27. He's now 37. Somewhere between those two numbers he reached his earning peak. His current deal won't be at that peak level. Because he's 37.

HTH

[JM2K6]

Glad you finally agree that he's not being paid anything like he was when he was younger. You catch on eventually.

Errr... what? He's being paid whatever his last contract was paying him - you know, before it came out that Saracens were massive cheats and they suddenly had to care about the money they were spending, and had to face up to being in the Championship next season

Players don't get paid less each time a contract comes round if they're still playing all the time and winning things.

You asked what he'd be worth _now_ with a new contract for next season - not what his current contract is.

Yes, you keep repeating this. He's been at Saracens since he was 27. He's now 37. Somewhere between those two numbers he reached his earning peak. His current deal won't be at that peak level. Because he's 37.

HTH

And yet they started funnelling hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of illegal payments to him only a couple of years ago. Which is definitely what you do with players you don't think are worthy of big sums of money

It's bizarre that you think that hugely influential core members of the first XV earn less after they've proven their worth and won several domestic and European titles than before they've done so, but in your backwards bizarro world anything is possible.

"Sorry Richard, I know we were paying you £350k, but we won the league and Champions Cup with you so your next contract is going to be 10% lower because you'll be a bit older. We still expect to base our game around your kicking game, though" - perfect logic in Toga's wonkyworld.

Your earning power is not decreased by increased success

[Kawazaki]

Errr... what? He's being paid whatever his last contract was paying him - you know, before it came out that Saracens were massive cheats and they suddenly had to care about the money they were spending, and had to face up to being in the Championship next season

Players don't get paid less each time a contract comes round if they're still playing all the time and winning things.

You asked what he'd be worth _now_ with a new contract for next season - not what his current contract is.

Yes, you keep repeating this. He's been at Saracens since he was 27. He's now 37. Somewhere between those two numbers he reached his earning peak. His current deal won't be at that peak level. Because he's 37.

HTH

And yet they started funnelling hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of illegal payments to him only a couple of years ago. Which is definitely what you do with players you don't think are worthy of big sums of money

It's bizarre that you think that hugely influential core members of the first XV earn less after they've proven their worth and won several domestic and European titles than before they've done so, but in your backwards bizarro world anything is possible.

"Sorry Richard, I know we were paying you £350k, but we won the league and Champions Cup with you so your next contract is going to be 10% lower because you'll be a bit older. We still expect to base our game around your kicking game, though" - perfect logic in Toga's wonkyworld.

Your earning power is not decreased by increased success

You appear to be confusing Richard Wigglesworth with somebody working in an office.

[JM2K6]

Wigglesworth's the guy that Saracens cheated massively to throw huge amounts of money at quite recently. Which really does rather torpedo the notion that Sarries didn't think he was worth much.

So, to sum up: Wigglesworth and Brad "club captain" Barritt are retiring at the end of the season, and are currently being paid whatever their most recent contract is, which - as incredibly important members of a multiple title-and-trophy-winning team, would be large amounts of money - and not getting paid per game or being paid peanuts.

Glad we got there in the end.

[Kawazaki]

Wigglesworth's the guy that Saracens cheated massively to throw huge amounts of money at quite recently. Which really does rather torpedo the notion that Sarries didn't think he was worth much.

So, to sum up: Wigglesworth and Brad "club captain" Barritt are retiring at the end of the season, and are currently being paid whatever their most recent contract is, which - as incredibly important members of a multiple title-and-trophy-winning team, would be large amounts of money - and not getting paid per game or being paid peanuts.

Glad we got there in the end.

Highly unlikely. Ironically for the reason you mention.