NPR

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:26 am
Torq is a preternaturally skinny fucker - no chance of getting a fair hearing on obesity :)

True. Although what is fair when it comes to junk food troughers?

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:36 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:26 am
Torq is a preternaturally skinny fucker - no chance of getting a fair hearing on obesity :)

True. Although what is fair when it comes to junk food troughers?

An understanding of the psychological and physical drives, for a start. We're a long way past blaming obesity on just bad choices. It's a lot more complicated than that. I would welcome serious funding and work into preventing it because it's a real problem in the developed world, but given a decent chunk of blame goes to megacorporations I can't see that happening any time soon.

Biffer wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:20 am Yep. That's of the order of 50,000 deaths a year. That's a very bad flu season. So we're being asked to accept a very bad flu season of deaths every single year by idiots.

So, based on the data
- 5.3 million covid deaths worldwide (with, because of, whatever) in 20 months. About 3.2 million per year. The vast majority of whom will have been ill or vulnerable and so with a high probability of shortened life expectancy.
- about 0.07% of the total population to date or 0.04% per annum

Deaths from starvation?
- 8 million per annum
- of which 3.1 million are children. Almost identical to the covid death rate.

So really, what you are really talking about is death rates not being acceptable unless they are out of sight in the world's poorest. Covid has been with us for 2 years and will peter out. Starvation has been at these sorts of numbers (proportionally for decades.

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:39 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:36 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:26 am
Torq is a preternaturally skinny fucker - no chance of getting a fair hearing on obesity :)

True. Although what is fair when it comes to junk food troughers?

An understanding of the psychological and physical drives, for a start. We're a long way past blaming obesity on just bad choices. It's a lot more complicated than that. I would welcome serious funding and work into preventing it because it's a real problem in the developed world, but given a decent chunk of blame goes to megacorporations I can't see that happening any time soon.

The vast majority of obesity is down to choice. You choose to eat sh*t or you don't. And proxying the blame on to the likes of Scumdonalds simply excuses the obese ones from any responsibility.

Sure thing Torq

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:52 pm

Biffer wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:20 am Yep. That's of the order of 50,000 deaths a year. That's a very bad flu season. So we're being asked to accept a very bad flu season of deaths every single year by idiots.

So, based on the data
- 5.3 million covid deaths worldwide (with, because of, whatever) in 20 months. About 3.2 million per year. The vast majority of whom will have been ill or vulnerable and so with a high probability of shortened life expectancy.
- about 0.07% of the total population to date or 0.04% per annum

Deaths from starvation?
- 8 million per annum
- of which 3.1 million are children. Almost identical to the covid death rate.

So really, what you are really talking about is death rates not being acceptable unless they are out of sight in the world's poorest. Covid has been with us for 2 years and will peter out. Starvation has been at these sorts of numbers (proportionally for decades.

That's official deaths. A more reliable measure for Covid is total excess deaths which is somewhere around 18-20 million.

And this attitude of people being sick already so fuck it, just let them die is awfully close to eugenics.

Biffer wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:03 pm
That's official deaths. A more reliable measure for Covid is total excess deaths which is somewhere around 18-20 million.

And this attitude of people being sick already so fuck it, just let them die is awfully close to eugenics.

I'd suggest the attitude is "It's only poor people starving, so f*ck it".

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:42 pm

Biffer wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:03 pm
That's official deaths. A more reliable measure for Covid is total excess deaths which is somewhere around 18-20 million.

And this attitude of people being sick already so fuck it, just let them die is awfully close to eugenics.

I'd suggest the attitude is "It's only poor people starving, so f*ck it".

Which is substantially the attitude of the Western world. It's not ok. And it doesn't justify having an equally bad attitude elsewhere.

Got another bit of whataboutery to throw at us?

Biffer wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:03 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:52 pm

Biffer wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:20 am Yep. That's of the order of 50,000 deaths a year. That's a very bad flu season. So we're being asked to accept a very bad flu season of deaths every single year by idiots.

So, based on the data
- 5.3 million covid deaths worldwide (with, because of, whatever) in 20 months. About 3.2 million per year. The vast majority of whom will have been ill or vulnerable and so with a high probability of shortened life expectancy.
- about 0.07% of the total population to date or 0.04% per annum

Deaths from starvation?
- 8 million per annum
- of which 3.1 million are children. Almost identical to the covid death rate.

So really, what you are really talking about is death rates not being acceptable unless they are out of sight in the world's poorest. Covid has been with us for 2 years and will peter out. Starvation has been at these sorts of numbers (proportionally for decades.

That's official deaths. A more reliable measure for Covid is total excess deaths which is somewhere around 18-20 million.

And this attitude of people being sick already so fuck it, just let them die is awfully close to eugenics.

Why will covid just peter out? At what cost in terms of lives lost and ruined by long covid? If it becomes endemic it doesn't mean it becomes less deadly, most dangerous diseases don't just go away or become less dangerous! Covid could become more dangerous and kill more people if we leave it to run unchecked in the population. We don't let lots of other diseases 'run their course', we actively try and minimise their transmission and impact upon society. Malaria is endemic in many countries but hasn't petered out or become less lethal - we just try and manage it better through a range of PH preventative measures. Ditto ebola.

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:57 pmSure thing Torq

The usual "JM says it's so and therefore it is" approach.

Immensa scandal just got interesting!

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:01 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:57 pmSure thing Torq

The usual "JM says it's so and therefore it is" approach.

I don't think you're in any position to accuse others of that, Torq - do you ever read your own posts?

What I'm actually saying, though, is that it's a complex problem, you've reduced it to a farcically simplistic one, and I have sub-zero levels of interest in trying to discuss it with you. Have fun!

Biffer wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:45 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:42 pm

Biffer wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:03 pm
That's official deaths. A more reliable measure for Covid is total excess deaths which is somewhere around 18-20 million.

And this attitude of people being sick already so fuck it, just let them die is awfully close to eugenics.

I'd suggest the attitude is "It's only poor people starving, so f*ck it".

Which is substantially the attitude of the Western world. It's not ok. And it doesn't justify having an equally bad attitude elsewhere.

Got another bit of whataboutery to throw at us?

Here's a thing. The starvation deaths have been with us for decades. The planet is dying which will kill all of us: even smug, wealthy Westerners like you. And an intl conference spends weeks coming up with nothing meaningful to address this. **

A virus pops up which kills 0.04% of the population per annum and because some of those are wealthy Westerners, we come close to bankrupting the whole capitalist edifice upon which your smug, privileged Western position is built upon.

It's not whataboutery. You choose to recast it as that simply to deflect the truth i.e. you didn't give a sh*t about dying until it might have affected you personally.

** I'll bet you've spent n x more words discussing the plight of covid with great moral indignation than you've done on COP26. Tell me I'm wrong.

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:05 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:01 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:57 pmSure thing Torq

The usual "JM says it's so and therefore it is" approach.

I don't think you're in any position to accuse others of that, Torq - do you ever read your own posts?

What I'm actually saying, though, is that it's a complex problem, you've reduced it to a farcically simplistic one, and I have sub-zero levels of interest in trying to discuss it with you. Have fun!

It's a simple problem. Eat lower volumes of junk. And get of your arses. Or die. It only becomes complex when you seek to apportion the blame elsewhere when the overwhelming majority of it is choice.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:08 pm

Biffer wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:45 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:42 pm

I'd suggest the attitude is "It's only poor people starving, so f*ck it".

Which is substantially the attitude of the Western world. It's not ok. And it doesn't justify having an equally bad attitude elsewhere.

Got another bit of whataboutery to throw at us?

Here's a thing. The starvation deaths have been with us for decades. The planet is dying which will kill all of us: even smug, wealthy Westerners like you. And an intl conference spends weeks coming up with nothing meaningful to address this. **

A virus pops up which kills 0.04% of the population per annum and because some of those are wealthy Westerners, we come close to bankrupting the whole capitalist edifice upon which your smug, privileged Western position is built upon.

It's not whataboutery. You choose to recast it as that simply to deflect the truth i.e. you didn't give a sh*t about dying until it might have affected you personally.

** I'll bet you've spent n x more words discussing the plight of covid with great moral indignation than you've done on COP26. Tell me I'm wrong.

You're wrong. I've been discussing COP26 and it's predecessors professionally for the best part of a decade.

Currently trying to find way to put measurement in place for sinks and sources of carbon on global scales.

There are fewer people who are seriously undernourished now than there were ten, twenty and thirty years ago. More needs to be done and more quickly.

Tell me what you're doing to address hunger.

And there's more people affected by lack of access to clean water than there are by starvation. What are you doing about that?

Can anyone in Scotland getting the jab verify if they are being asked to confirm ethnicity before they get it? Someone I know telling me they were asked if they were 'White British' or 'White Scottish'.

tc27 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:41 pm Can anyone in Scotland getting the jab verify if they are being asked to confirm ethnicity before they get it? Someone I know telling me they were asked if they were 'White British' or 'White Scottish'.

It's asked but you don't have to answer.

tc27 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:41 pm Can anyone in Scotland getting the jab verify if they are being asked to confirm ethnicity before they get it? Someone I know telling me they were asked if they were 'White British' or 'White Scottish'.

What's the difference?

tc27 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:41 pm Can anyone in Scotland getting the jab verify if they are being asked to confirm ethnicity before they get it? Someone I know telling me they were asked if they were 'White British' or 'White Scottish'.

No one asked me my ethnicity when I got my booster last week, British / Scottish , or otherwise

People in Edinburgh office have/have not had this question. Anyway appreciate the answers

Dogbert wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:24 pm

tc27 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:41 pm Can anyone in Scotland getting the jab verify if they are being asked to confirm ethnicity before they get it? Someone I know telling me they were asked if they were 'White British' or 'White Scottish'.

No one asked me my ethnicity when I got my booster last week, British / Scottish , or otherwise

I wasn't asked either but I am sure that they have it on my health/vaccine records from previous appts anyway. It is fairly standard question used by NHS to help them make sure they are monitoring healthcare provision across all the various ethnicities, including in this case vaccine uptake. If they don't keep a record then how do they know you are reaching all the various ethnic groups and if not to help focus particular actions on ethnic minorities to increase take up. There is a standard list of responses including 'prefer not to say' ... I think it is same categories that are used in census in Scotland?

At a higher level ethnicity is just one dimension that Public Health Scotland, for example, will report on in most of their reports ie 'Births in Scotland Annual Reports' will analyse births in Scotland across a number of dimension such ethnicity, age, deprivation, smoking, method of delivery, etc. They use this to determine future healthcare planning and service delivery ... Intelligence init!

Yeah, I was first asked if I minded if they asked.

The reason for the White British / White Scottish thing is to prevent arguments. You’d get people insisting they weren’t that if you only used one of them.

Biffer wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:40 pm Yeah, I was first asked if I minded if they asked.

The reason for the White British / White Scottish thing is to prevent arguments. You’d get people insisting they weren’t that if you only used one of them.

A stealth check by Sturgeon to test the waters on a referendum?

Ymx wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:43 pm

Biffer wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:40 pm Yeah, I was first asked if I minded if they asked.

The reason for the White British / White Scottish thing is to prevent arguments. You’d get people insisting they weren’t that if you only used one of them.

A stealth check by Sturgeon to test the waters on a referendum?

Nah, genuinely if you only gave people one option or the other you’d end up with the vaccination staff having folk shouting at them, from whichever side depending on what option you didn’t have.

Biffer wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:04 pm

Ymx wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:43 pm

Biffer wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:40 pm Yeah, I was first asked if I minded if they asked.

The reason for the White British / White Scottish thing is to prevent arguments. You’d get people insisting they weren’t that if you only used one of them.

A stealth check by Sturgeon to test the waters on a referendum?

Nah, genuinely if you only gave people one option or the other you’d end up with the vaccination staff having folk shouting at them, from whichever side depending on what option you didn’t have.

I was asked and agree with Biffer, it’s just to preempt the nut jobs

I never realised until just now that London is terrible in terms of vaccine uptake. Over a third not at all vaccinated.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274
Type in area names.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/heal ... 76746.html

So, infamous anti-vaxxer Robert F Kennedy Jr has a party - and asks that attendees be vaccinated and tested

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 78073.html

Hypocrites-R-Us president right there

Some positive work from the Gupta Lab Cambridge @GuptaR_lab that omicron is worse at inducing cell to cell fusion than delta and worse spike entry efficiency into lung organoids.
https://t.co/EzbfHMStTt

Ymx wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:05 pm I never realised until just now that London is terrible in terms of vaccine uptake. Over a third not at all vaccinated.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274
Type in area names.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/heal ... 76746.html

That's a third of eligible people as well. Overall it's over 40% of people in London who've not even had one vaccination.

Biffer wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:02 am

Ymx wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:05 pm I never realised until just now that London is terrible in terms of vaccine uptake. Over a third not at all vaccinated.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274
Type in area names.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/heal ... 76746.html

That's a third of eligible people as well. Overall it's over 40% of people in London who've not even had one vaccination.

*dons fire-proof suit*

If Boris was mayor this wouldn’t happen!!

petej wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:59 am Some positive work from the Gupta Lab Cambridge @GuptaR_lab that omicron is worse at inducing cell to cell fusion than delta and worse spike entry efficiency into lung organoids.
https://t.co/EzbfHMStTt

Ties into data from Gauteng hospitals where far fewer covid patients required oxygen. The Omicron wave is proving to be a damp squib as far as Gauteng is concerned, excess deaths has hardly moved.




With millions of Gautengteners heading to the coastal provinces for holiday/visiting relatives we should soon see infections shoot up in KZN, Western and Eastern Cape. Will be interesting to see how it reflects on hospitalisations and deaths there.

Sandstorm wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:37 am

Biffer wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:02 am

Ymx wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:05 pm I never realised until just now that London is terrible in terms of vaccine uptake. Over a third not at all vaccinated.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274
Type in area names.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/heal ... 76746.html

That's a third of eligible people as well. Overall it's over 40% of people in London who've not even had one vaccination.

*dons fire-proof suit*

If Boris was mayor this wouldn’t happen!!

A massive Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

to those scummy Londoners!!!

Calculon wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:45 am

petej wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:59 am Some positive work from the Gupta Lab Cambridge @GuptaR_lab that omicron is worse at inducing cell to cell fusion than delta and worse spike entry efficiency into lung organoids.
https://t.co/EzbfHMStTt

Ties into data from Gauteng hospitals where far fewer covid patients required oxygen. The Omicron wave is proving to be a damp squib as far as Gauteng is concerned, excess deaths has hardly moved.




With millions of Gautengteners heading to the coastal provinces for holiday/visiting relatives we should soon see infections shoot up in KZN, Western and Eastern Cape. Will be interesting to see how it reflects on hospitalisations and deaths there.

Looks positive. Just need to be careful re population age distribution, etc before extrapolating the results and slapping confirmation bias on top. Would I be right in saying South African age distribution would be distinctly lower than Europe?

2 week lockdown after Christmas now widely being trailed.

tc27 wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:55 pm 2 week lockdown after Christmas now widely being trailed.

Hey, it won't be a "lockdown" but a "circuit breaker"

I was reading somewhere that our path is now predetermined in terms of this peak. And lockdown post Christmas / New Year would be too late to curb it now. We’ve already rolled the dice.

Biffer wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:02 am

Ymx wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:05 pm I never realised until just now that London is terrible in terms of vaccine uptake. Over a third not at all vaccinated.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274
Type in area names.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/heal ... 76746.html

That's a third of eligible people as well. Overall it's over 40% of people in London who've not even had one vaccination.

I’ve just driven down to London area this morning. We stopped 3 times and each time fewer and fewer people were wearing masks. Our last stop just before Oxford was probably about 50/50 in the service station. Madness

The messages are getting very mixed again.

Close the airways, there is a superspreading virus - though it shouldn't be as harmful. So once the virus is in, let's open all the airways again and start spreading the virus further ourselves, as it isn't too bad anyway, so we didn't need to close the aiways and make people stay in expensive isolation hotels in the first place.
But we do have to cancel NHS services, so the remaining NHS staff and volunteers can cancel their Christmasses and do the boosters - obviously this needs to happen at breakneck speed so let's announce it rather than organise it properly.

People should probably avoid social contact, apart from Christmas parties obviously, as we need to keep the economy going. And if the messaging around the virus results in cancellations, that's just tough for the hospitality industry (i.e. the economy).

But we definitely don't need a lockdown, until the cabinet have all been able to hold their Christmas parties and travel to their 2nd or 3rd homes for Christmas. Cause by then we will desperately need a lockdown.

London admissions



For reference it jumped to 700 last year Dec'20 and 900 Jan'21

Uncle fester wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:45 pm

Calculon wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:45 am

petej wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:59 am Some positive work from the Gupta Lab Cambridge @GuptaR_lab that omicron is worse at inducing cell to cell fusion than delta and worse spike entry efficiency into lung organoids.
https://t.co/EzbfHMStTt

Ties into data from Gauteng hospitals where far fewer covid patients required oxygen. The Omicron wave is proving to be a damp squib as far as Gauteng is concerned, excess deaths has hardly moved.




With millions of Gautengteners heading to the coastal provinces for holiday/visiting relatives we should soon see infections shoot up in KZN, Western and Eastern Cape. Will be interesting to see how it reflects on hospitalisations and deaths there.

Looks positive. Just need to be careful re population age distribution, etc before extrapolating the results and slapping confirmation bias on top. Would I be right in saying South African age distribution would be distinctly lower than Europe?

Yes, median age around 28, thinks it's around 41 in the UK, will be higher in the likes of Italy and germany.also summer here so that will lower the transmissibility, which just shows you how incredibly transmissible this variant is Althouth few restrictions here to slow spread. Just before the start of this wave I went to a school bazaar, probably over a thousand people packed into the school hall and I was one of the very few people wearing a mask. You do feel a bit silly.

Only 25 percent of population fully vaxxed but high levels of immunity from previous infections, around 70 percent have antibodies to sarscov2. This figure probably higher in most of Europe due to much better vaccination rate . No boosters for general public in South Africa, only for a few thousand health care workers that got single shot j and j back in March April Also something like 19 percent adults are HIV positive, lots of TB, 88 percent latent TB, don't know how that might interact with covid. Even higher level of obesity here than the UK, and loads of diabetes. Other differences in terms of vaccine type and when they are administered.

So not directly comparable to Europe but I think this variant is almost certainly intrinsically milder, to what extent we can't be sure, than Delta, so the level of hype over there seems completely over the top.