NPR

yermum wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:26 pm Britain isn't real.

Its a political entity, a fig leaf worn by the English ruling class to allow the celtic fringe to feel like they matter (they don't).

British "identity" is more or less english culture with a sprinkling of colonial attitudes and a dash of historical myopia.

The idea of Britain was a useful tool during the colonial era but doesn't seem that relevant anymore.

National identities like English Welsh and Scottish are more relevant these days.

I genuinely wouldn't be able to define a characteristic as something as being uniquely British where as being Welsh has a very definite set of cultural and linguistic signifiers.

The much vaunted "British Values" taught in schools: Democracy, Rule of Law, Respect and Tolerance, Individual Liberty, are hardly unique to being British.

yermum wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:26 pm Britain isn't real.

Its a political entity, a fig leaf worn by the English ruling class to allow the celtic fringe to feel like they matter (they don't).

I genuinely wouldn't be able to define a characteristic as something as being uniquely British where as being Welsh has a very definite set of cultural and linguistic signifiers.

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:13 pm

Calculon wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:57 pm Can one of you natives explain that to me? I had a quick look on my mobile, and it seems nowhere in Wales do more than 25% of the polulation identify as British. I find this astounding, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of these people are British nationals.

You got the option of identifying as British, English/Welsh/Scottish etc or a combination. Parts of Wales have over 20% of people identifying as English!

yermum wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:26 pm Britain isn't real.

Its a political entity, a fig leaf worn by the English ruling class to allow the celtic fringe to feel like they matter (they don't).

British "identity" is more or less english culture with a sprinkling of colonial attitudes and a dash of historical myopia.

The idea of Britain was a useful tool during the colonial era but doesn't seem that relevant anymore.

National identities like English Welsh and Scottish are more relevant these days.

I genuinely wouldn't be able to define a characteristic as something as being uniquely British where as being Welsh has a very definite set of cultural and linguistic signifiers.

The much vaunted "British Values" taught in schools: Democracy, Rule of Law, Respect and Tolerance, Individual Liberty, are hardly unique to being British.

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:30 pm

yermum wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:26 pm Britain isn't real.

Its a political entity, a fig leaf worn by the English ruling class to allow the celtic fringe to feel like they matter (they don't).

British "identity" is more or less english culture with a sprinkling of colonial attitudes and a dash of historical myopia.

The idea of Britain was a useful tool during the colonial era but doesn't seem that relevant anymore.

National identities like English Welsh and Scottish are more relevant these days.

I genuinely wouldn't be able to define a characteristic as something as being uniquely British where as being Welsh has a very definite set of cultural and linguistic signifiers.

The much vaunted "British Values" taught in schools: Democracy, Rule of Law, Respect and Tolerance, Individual Liberty, are hardly unique to being British.

Hmm I think this is wrong on any number of levels.
The issue 'Britishness', and to a lesser extent Englishness, has in terms of being distinctive is that it is so pervasive from language down to sport to formal dress etc that it seems ubiquitous. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. With that said, spending a couple of weeks working abroad is an eye opener to the fact that we have some very different character traits and methods of doing things to near neighbours. Were you to say that England is in dire need of a cultural revival I would certainly agree.

Then we can get on to the fact that significantly more English people identified as British on this census than as English (though admittedly part of that is because British was listed above and most English people use the two fairly interchangeably, I know I do). Or the pre-eminence of the Union Jack compared to the Cross of St George across England.

I'm sure this could go round in circles but I'd say there probably hasn't been a time in history when people from the different home nations have been more culturally homogenous than they are now. This starts with the collective decline of the CofE, the Kirk and the non-conforming Churches but pervades through education, fashion, social attitudes and popular culture. Even Wales turning to football over rugby is a good example of this.

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:28 pm The usual crop of racists, stooges, useful idiots and white replacement conspira-hate-preachers are hyperventilating furiously about all this.

Muslamic ray guns, lamentations that some cities will exist where white people are the minority and "Father" Calvin changing his background to Enoch Powell are much in evidence on the bird app, with the usual Farage monologue to his mobile camera, filmed so closely you can see the subtle shading of the different hues of yellow and brown on his teeth.

tc27 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:31 pm

I am not sure there is such a thing as cohesive English nationalism...it is more that because England's electorate now dwarfs that in the other home nations (a relatively recent development in the history of the UK) that it's become possible to be elected to government with a minority voter base in Scotland and Wales (this is the one reason for Welsh and Scottish nationalism I have some sympathy for...

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:57 pm

tc27 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:31 pm

I am not sure there is such a thing as cohesive English nationalism...it is more that because England's electorate now dwarfs that in the other home nations (a relatively recent development in the history of the UK) that it's become possible to be elected to government with a minority voter base in Scotland and Wales (this is the one reason for Welsh and Scottish nationalism I have some sympathy for...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the Parliament of Great Britain, or whatever the correct term was after 1707 and on into the UK, English seats have always vastly outnumbered the combined total of the other constituent parts of the UK, meaning that you don't even really need a minority base in Scotland/Wal/NIrn if you can win a significant majority in England.

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:04 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:57 pm

tc27 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:31 pm

I am not sure there is such a thing as cohesive English nationalism...it is more that because England's electorate now dwarfs that in the other home nations (a relatively recent development in the history of the UK) that it's become possible to be elected to government with a minority voter base in Scotland and Wales (this is the one reason for Welsh and Scottish nationalism I have some sympathy for...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the Parliament of Great Britain, or whatever the correct term was after 1707 and on into the UK, English seats have always vastly outnumbered the combined total of the other constituent parts of the UK, meaning that you don't even really need a minority base in Scotland/Wal/NIrn if you can win a significant majority in England.

Hard to compare directly but for fair chunks of the Victorian era the Irish Parliamentary Party held the balance of power and Irish Unionists sat with the Tories until the 70s. The winning a significant majority in England has always been the challenging bit as England doesn’t vote as a bloc

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:10 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:04 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:57 pm



Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the Parliament of Great Britain, or whatever the correct term was after 1707 and on into the UK, English seats have always vastly outnumbered the combined total of the other constituent parts of the UK, meaning that you don't even really need a minority base in Scotland/Wal/NIrn if you can win a significant majority in England.

Hard to compare directly but for fair chunks of the Victorian era the Irish Parliamentary Party held the balance of power and Irish Unionists sat with the Tories until the 70s. The winning a significant majority in England has always been the challenging bit as England doesn’t vote as a bloc

I read the post as saying that it's only recently become a mathematical possibility to win a GE with a minority base in Scotland/Wal/NI because of the large growth in the population of England.

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:10 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:04 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:57 pm



Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the Parliament of Great Britain, or whatever the correct term was after 1707 and on into the UK, English seats have always vastly outnumbered the combined total of the other constituent parts of the UK, meaning that you don't even really need a minority base in Scotland/Wal/NIrn if you can win a significant majority in England.

Hard to compare directly but for fair chunks of the Victorian era the Irish Parliamentary Party held the balance of power and Irish Unionists sat with the Tories until the 70s. The winning a significant majority in England has always been the challenging bit as England doesn’t vote as a bloc

I read the post as saying that it's only recently become a mathematical possibility to win a GE with a minority base in Scotland/Wal/NI because of the large growth in the population of England.

Calculon wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:24 pm during the middle ages Scotland's population was about 20 to 25% of England's, now they're closer to 10%

Slick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:36 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:28 pm The usual crop of racists, stooges, useful idiots and white replacement conspira-hate-preachers are hyperventilating furiously about all this.

Muslamic ray guns, lamentations that some cities will exist where white people are the minority and "Father" Calvin changing his background to Enoch Powell are much in evidence on the bird app, with the usual Farage monologue to his mobile camera, filmed so closely you can see the subtle shading of the different hues of yellow and brown on his teeth.

You write something like this then throw your arms up in the air and wonder why something like Brexit happened

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:08 am When is the NHS getting the extra £350M per week as per the promise?

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:01 am

Slick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:36 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:28 pm The usual crop of racists, stooges, useful idiots and white replacement conspira-hate-preachers are hyperventilating furiously about all this.

Muslamic ray guns, lamentations that some cities will exist where white people are the minority and "Father" Calvin changing his background to Enoch Powell are much in evidence on the bird app, with the usual Farage monologue to his mobile camera, filmed so closely you can see the subtle shading of the different hues of yellow and brown on his teeth.

You write something like this then throw your arms up in the air and wonder why something like Brexit happened

This is a weird post, Slick. Are we not allowed to call the racists and scumbags racists and scumbags any more? Should we be giving people like Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage and all the far right / alt right headcases loads of respect for their disingenuous bleating over this?

Brexit happened in part because people like Farage weren't challenged on their absolute bullshit. Murray has been doing the whole "I told you guys this would happen and everyone called me a racist" schtick, conveniently ignoring that he claimed Christians would become a minority thanks to Islam - when in reality all that's happened is people have become less religious full stop.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:01 am

Slick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:36 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:28 pm The usual crop of racists, stooges, useful idiots and white replacement conspira-hate-preachers are hyperventilating furiously about all this.

Muslamic ray guns, lamentations that some cities will exist where white people are the minority and "Father" Calvin changing his background to Enoch Powell are much in evidence on the bird app, with the usual Farage monologue to his mobile camera, filmed so closely you can see the subtle shading of the different hues of yellow and brown on his teeth.

You write something like this then throw your arms up in the air and wonder why something like Brexit happened

This is a weird post, Slick. Are we not allowed to call the racists and scumbags racists and scumbags any more? Should we be giving people like Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage and all the far right / alt right headcases loads of respect for their disingenuous bleating over this?

Brexit happened in part because people like Farage weren't challenged on their absolute bullshit. Murray has been doing the whole "I told you guys this would happen and everyone called me a racist" schtick, conveniently ignoring that he claimed Christians would become a minority thanks to Islam - when in reality all that's happened is people have become less religious full stop.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:19 am

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:01 am

Slick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:36 pm

You write something like this then throw your arms up in the air and wonder why something like Brexit happened

This is a weird post, Slick. Are we not allowed to call the racists and scumbags racists and scumbags any more? Should we be giving people like Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage and all the far right / alt right headcases loads of respect for their disingenuous bleating over this?

Brexit happened in part because people like Farage weren't challenged on their absolute bullshit. Murray has been doing the whole "I told you guys this would happen and everyone called me a racist" schtick, conveniently ignoring that he claimed Christians would become a minority thanks to Islam - when in reality all that's happened is people have become less religious full stop.

Farage needs to be told to fuck off, but there's a strand of opinion that suggests that a change in 20 years of London going from c.80% White British to under 40% isn't even worthy of comment. It is, IMHO, because:

1) In of itself it is quite remarkable and unprecedented in this country
2) It has big implications for the kind of country we are going to be going forward
3) As I mentioned kicking this off, it raises a number of questions about how we create/maintain a cohesive society. Not least as because the white population over this time nationally has stagnated rather than materially declined, meaning regardless of people's statements an awful lot of white people vote with their feet when it comes to living in close proximity to black or brown people. We're both in/around London, we both know what 'its for the schools' tends to mean when people leave. Ignoring this as Britain becomes more diverse doesn't make it go away and encourages a situation much like the Americans have.


This thread is pretty thoughtful on it IMHO

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:19 am

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:01 am

Slick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:36 pm

You write something like this then throw your arms up in the air and wonder why something like Brexit happened

This is a weird post, Slick. Are we not allowed to call the racists and scumbags racists and scumbags any more? Should we be giving people like Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage and all the far right / alt right headcases loads of respect for their disingenuous bleating over this?

Brexit happened in part because people like Farage weren't challenged on their absolute bullshit. Murray has been doing the whole "I told you guys this would happen and everyone called me a racist" schtick, conveniently ignoring that he claimed Christians would become a minority thanks to Islam - when in reality all that's happened is people have become less religious full stop.

Farage needs to be told to fuck off, but there's a strand of opinion that suggests that a change in 20 years of London going from c.80% White British to under 40% isn't even worthy of comment. It is, IMHO, because:

1) In of itself it is quite remarkable and unprecedented in this country
2) It has big implications for the kind of country we are going to be going forward
3) As I mentioned kicking this off, it raises a number of questions about how we create/maintain a cohesive society. Not least as because the white population over this time nationally has stagnated rather than materially declined, meaning regardless of people's statements an awful lot of white people vote with their feet when it comes to living in close proximity to black or brown people. We're both in/around London, we both know what 'its for the schools' tends to mean when people leave. Ignoring this as Britain becomes more diverse doesn't make it go away and encourages a situation much like the Americans have.


This thread is pretty thoughtful on it IMHO

1) In of itself it is quite remarkable and unprecedented in this country
2) It has big implications for the kind of country we are going to be going forward

3) As I mentioned kicking this off, it raises a number of questions about how we create/maintain a cohesive society. Not least as because the white population over this time nationally has stagnated rather than materially declined, meaning regardless of people's statements an awful lot of white people vote with their feet when it comes to living in close proximity to black or brown people. We're both in/around London, we both know what 'its for the schools' tends to mean when people leave. Ignoring this as Britain becomes more diverse doesn't make it go away and encourages a situation much like the Americans have.

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:30 am

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:01 am

Slick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:36 pm

You write something like this then throw your arms up in the air and wonder why something like Brexit happened

This is a weird post, Slick. Are we not allowed to call the racists and scumbags racists and scumbags any more? Should we be giving people like Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage and all the far right / alt right headcases loads of respect for their disingenuous bleating over this?

Brexit happened in part because people like Farage weren't challenged on their absolute bullshit. Murray has been doing the whole "I told you guys this would happen and everyone called me a racist" schtick, conveniently ignoring that he claimed Christians would become a minority thanks to Islam - when in reality all that's happened is people have become less religious full stop.

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

I like neeps wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:11 pm

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:30 am

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:01 am

This is a weird post, Slick. Are we not allowed to call the racists and scumbags racists and scumbags any more? Should we be giving people like Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage and all the far right / alt right headcases loads of respect for their disingenuous bleating over this?

Brexit happened in part because people like Farage weren't challenged on their absolute bullshit. Murray has been doing the whole "I told you guys this would happen and everyone called me a racist" schtick, conveniently ignoring that he claimed Christians would become a minority thanks to Islam - when in reality all that's happened is people have become less religious full stop.

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:02 pm

I like neeps wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:11 pm

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:30 am

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

Do you live there? Or just being preachy from your Scottish White neighbourhood?

I like neeps wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:11 pm

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:30 am

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:01 am

This is a weird post, Slick. Are we not allowed to call the racists and scumbags racists and scumbags any more? Should we be giving people like Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage and all the far right / alt right headcases loads of respect for their disingenuous bleating over this?

Brexit happened in part because people like Farage weren't challenged on their absolute bullshit. Murray has been doing the whole "I told you guys this would happen and everyone called me a racist" schtick, conveniently ignoring that he claimed Christians would become a minority thanks to Islam - when in reality all that's happened is people have become less religious full stop.

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

Simian wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:12 pm

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:02 pm

I like neeps wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:11 pm

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

Do you live there? Or just being preachy from your Scottish White neighbourhood?

Sorry if I'm being thick, but what exactly is the problem with a place like London not being majority white British. In other words, what exactly are the concerns of the millions of people you mentioned? If it's not racism / xenophobia, what is it?

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:02 pm

I like neeps wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:11 pm

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:30 am

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

Do you live there? Or just being preachy from your Scottish White neighbourhood?

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:25 pm

I like neeps wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:11 pm

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:30 am

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

To try and take this seriously:
1) the sheer pace of change as I outlined before. Would be the same for anything and it presents challenges on how you manage and plan for it.

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:51 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:25 pm

I like neeps wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:11 pm

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

To try and take this seriously:
1) the sheer pace of change as I outlined before. Would be the same for anything and it presents challenges on how you manage and plan for it.

And we have seen already in incidents dotted around the country how some of this change can be difficult when it involves communities whose values and identities clash. Whether it's the recent clashes in Leicester between Hindus and Muslims or the Muslim protests a couple of years ago outside a Birmingham primary school that dared to teach its pupils that LGBT couples exist.

The pace of change makes it difficult to mitigate and manage this, it makes non-assimilation and self-segregation easy.

I like neeps wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:47 pm

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:02 pm

I like neeps wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:11 pm

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

Do you live there? Or just being preachy from your Scottish White neighbourhood?

I've lived in London - Canada Water which is a diverse area. I now life in Oxford which likely isn't minority white but has huge diversity.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:25 pm

I like neeps wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:11 pm

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:30 am

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

To try and take this seriously:
1) the sheer pace of change as I outlined before. Would be the same for anything and it presents challenges on how you manage and plan for it.
2) different people from different cultures are different, as controversial as it is to say. And the more people from x culture there are in a neighbourhood the more it resembles their culture and the less everyone else’s. This means someone could have lived in an area for 20/30 years and barely recognise the place and people around them. Not necessarily a bad thing at all but certainly disconcerting.
3) leaning on point 2), I know an awful lot of people who grew up in parts of North London that are now totally unrecognisable and the community they grew up in no longer exists, from the people to the shops/facilities, to the public realm, to sports clubs and societies etc. Times change everywhere but I bet you’d hate that happening to where you grew up as well. You see this in reverse as parts of the black community complain about Brixton getting whiter and yuppier, so everyone gets this point even when they pretend not to.
4) people see what has happened in terms of areas radically changing and don’t massively want that for the area they live in. Agree or disagree with that but I wouldn’t say that’s overtly racist, people just don’t like change around them by and large
5) as Slick alluded to there’s something pretty rich and to add my own opinion tedious about getting lectures on how us irredeemably racist English should deal with the challenges presented by diversity and demographic change from someone who lives in a nation that is for all intents and purposes monoethnic. Given my experience of Scotland is that phrases like ‘grabbing a chinky’ or ‘popping round to the P- shop’ are still in vogue it suggests to me a significant number of your countrymen would react poorly were things happening at the same scale.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:25 pm
4) people see what has happened in terms of areas radically changing and don’t massively want that for the area they live in. Agree or disagree with that but I wouldn’t say that’s overtly racist, people just don’t like change around them by and large

Forty potential breaches of the ministerial code have never been referred for investigation by the ethics adviser, according to new data.
The pressure group Transparency International has been among those calling for the role to have significantly enhanced powers since it was vacated by Christopher Geidt five months ago under Boris Johnson.
In analysis of media reports, the group found 40 potential breaches of the ministerial code have not been investigated over the past five years. Those included:
Meetings by Nadhim Zahawi and Kwasi Kwarteng with the Libyan politician Fathi Bashagha, organised by the lobbyist Mark Fullbrook who became Truss’s chief of staff.
Michael Gove’s acceptance of £120,000 in donations from property developers while serving as housing secretary.
Multiple meetings held by Anne-Marie Trevelyan with a Chinese state-owned nuclear power company with no record of what was discussed.

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:56 pm

I like neeps wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:47 pm

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:02 pm

Do you live there? Or just being preachy from your Scottish White neighbourhood?

I've lived in London - Canada Water which is a diverse area. I now life in Oxford which likely isn't minority white but has huge diversity.

Fair enough, but I don't think you can really equate that experience to people who have had roots there for generations.

I like neeps wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:11 pm

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:30 am

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:01 am

This is a weird post, Slick. Are we not allowed to call the racists and scumbags racists and scumbags any more? Should we be giving people like Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage and all the far right / alt right headcases loads of respect for their disingenuous bleating over this?

Brexit happened in part because people like Farage weren't challenged on their absolute bullshit. Murray has been doing the whole "I told you guys this would happen and everyone called me a racist" schtick, conveniently ignoring that he claimed Christians would become a minority thanks to Islam - when in reality all that's happened is people have become less religious full stop.

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

I like neeps wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:14 pm

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:56 pm

I like neeps wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:47 pm

I've lived in London - Canada Water which is a diverse area. I now life in Oxford which likely isn't minority white but has huge diversity.

Fair enough, but I don't think you can really equate that experience to people who have had roots there for generations.

And I haven't. But as I said to PB - if your neighbourhood changes and what you don't like about it is that there's foreigns there you are racist. If you don't like the sports club doesn't get members, the library and swimming pool have closed down, your favourite pub shut, your church group is smaller every year, the high street bank went online and chains are everywhere then yes I think that's bad but I don't think it's a problem that's started with diversity.

I like neeps wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:08 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:25 pm

I like neeps wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:11 pm

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

To try and take this seriously:
1) the sheer pace of change as I outlined before. Would be the same for anything and it presents challenges on how you manage and plan for it.
2) different people from different cultures are different, as controversial as it is to say. And the more people from x culture there are in a neighbourhood the more it resembles their culture and the less everyone else’s. This means someone could have lived in an area for 20/30 years and barely recognise the place and people around them. Not necessarily a bad thing at all but certainly disconcerting.
3) leaning on point 2), I know an awful lot of people who grew up in parts of North London that are now totally unrecognisable and the community they grew up in no longer exists, from the people to the shops/facilities, to the public realm, to sports clubs and societies etc. Times change everywhere but I bet you’d hate that happening to where you grew up as well. You see this in reverse as parts of the black community complain about Brixton getting whiter and yuppier, so everyone gets this point even when they pretend not to.
4) people see what has happened in terms of areas radically changing and don’t massively want that for the area they live in. Agree or disagree with that but I wouldn’t say that’s overtly racist, people just don’t like change around them by and large
5) as Slick alluded to there’s something pretty rich and to add my own opinion tedious about getting lectures on how us irredeemably racist English should deal with the challenges presented by diversity and demographic change from someone who lives in a nation that is for all intents and purposes monoethnic. Given my experience of Scotland is that phrases like ‘grabbing a chinky’ or ‘popping round to the P- shop’ are still in vogue it suggests to me a significant number of your countrymen would react poorly were things happening at the same scale.

See my reply to Slick - I live in England and have for at least 12 years. So happily point 5 can be totally disregarded. Fwiw I do think a number of Scots are racist as the terms you reference are still widely used.

Your point about pace of change is curious. Because (a) if you've decided the change is bad because the faces are brown you are a racist I'm afraid. If someone has specific points about the culture changing I'd be interested in hearing what they are specifically regarding your locality. (B) I've lived across the UK there's no homogeneous culture anyway. Which you actually allude to in point 3. Places change - what's concerning really is that when I go home to Dundee it hasn't changed in 20/30 years at all. I'd bet you that places that have minority white population now are least concerned by the changes. And (c) sports clubs, societies, local facilities changing and closing etc isn't really brought about by diversity anyway. If you look at sports participation in Dundee where I'm from the rugby clubs I played for, the boys brigade I was a member of and the football club I played for all struggle and the reason as you mentioned in point 5 is not diversity. The fall in Christianity is driven by atheists etc. Societies have changed in the last 20 years mostly due to economics, cars, online shopping, mobile phones rather than diversity. And I appreciate those concerns, I'm a communitarian at heart.

I appreciate the issues that arise in Leicester where there have been pitched cultural battles and yes I appreciate you have to integrate cultures is important and not happening as well as it could. But integration in London is actually pretty good you'd say, no?

GogLais wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:18 pm

I like neeps wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:11 pm

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:30 am

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

Ah well. It saddens me when largely English incomers “swamp” villages in North Wales meaning that I rarely hear my mother tongue when I go there. Am I racist? Perhaps I don’t want to know.