NPR

Both Times and Mail going with a Farrell/Slade/Lawrence midfield. Smith to bench and Willis starting at 7

Margin__Walker wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:46 pm Both Times and Mail going with a Farrell/Slade/Lawrence midfield. Smith to bench and Willis starting at 7

Could be quite an exciting bench with, probably, Earl, Arundell and Smith on it. The big question is which one to pick as my supersub !!

David Ribbans is leaving Saints at the end of the season to join Toulon. Pretty pissed off about this, Saints took him from obscurity and turned him into an international, then a French club comes along and waves a shit ton of money in his face and he's off. Can't really blame the player for wanting to maximise his earnings, but it's annoying that it's such an uneven playing field.

Simmonds, LCD, Marchant, Ribbans, a lot of English talent will be plying their trade in France next season, time to relax the rules about overseas players?

Oxbow wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:44 am David Ribbans is leaving Saints at the end of the season to join Toulon. Pretty pissed off about this, Saints took him from obscurity and turned him into an international, then a French club comes along and waves a shit ton of money in his face and he's off. Can't really blame the player for wanting to maximise his earnings, but it's annoying that it's such an uneven playing field.

Simmonds, LCD, Marchant, Ribbans, a lot of English talent will be plying their trade in France next season, time to relax the rules about overseas players?

No. They've all made their bed and can lie in it. Ribbans isn't even English so slightly peeved we've wasted caps on him. If you play the majority of games for England in a season you're picking up over £200,000 on top of what you earn for your club and open the door to endorsements, 6N prize money (one day...) etc etc.

Not for me. Keep the rule in place. It keeps core England players in their prime in the domestic league.

You'll always get fringe player leaving and more established names coming past their peak at the end of a world cup cycle. A few more at the moment with the additional financial disparity, but overall the rule works imo.

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:46 am

Oxbow wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:44 am David Ribbans is leaving Saints at the end of the season to join Toulon. Pretty pissed off about this, Saints took him from obscurity and turned him into an international, then a French club comes along and waves a shit ton of money in his face and he's off. Can't really blame the player for wanting to maximise his earnings, but it's annoying that it's such an uneven playing field.

Simmonds, LCD, Marchant, Ribbans, a lot of English talent will be plying their trade in France next season, time to relax the rules about overseas players?

No. They've all made their bed and can lie in it. Ribbans isn't even English so slightly peeved we've wasted caps on him. If you play the majority of games for England in a season you're picking up over £200,000 on top of what you earn for your club and open the door to endorsements, 6N prize money (one day...) etc etc.

Seems to be a pretty dull thing to do when you've just broken into the England team. I doubt the extra money Toulon is paying him will make up for the loss in England earnings when he is dropped from the squad.

Lobby wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:53 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:46 am

Oxbow wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:44 am David Ribbans is leaving Saints at the end of the season to join Toulon. Pretty pissed off about this, Saints took him from obscurity and turned him into an international, then a French club comes along and waves a shit ton of money in his face and he's off. Can't really blame the player for wanting to maximise his earnings, but it's annoying that it's such an uneven playing field.

Simmonds, LCD, Marchant, Ribbans, a lot of English talent will be plying their trade in France next season, time to relax the rules about overseas players?

No. They've all made their bed and can lie in it. Ribbans isn't even English so slightly peeved we've wasted caps on him. If you play the majority of games for England in a season you're picking up over £200,000 on top of what you earn for your club and open the door to endorsements, 6N prize money (one day...) etc etc.

Seems to be a pretty dull thing to do when you've just broken into the England team. I doubt the extra money Toulon is paying him will make up for the loss in England earnings when he is dropped from the squad.

The contract was probably sorted late last year.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:51 pm

Ovals wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:33 pm The Independent are predicting

Predicted line-ups

England XV: Ellis Genge, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler; Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum; Lewis Ludlam, Jack Willis, Alex Dombrandt; Jack van Poortvliet, Owen Farrell (capt.); Ollie Hassell-Collins, Ollie Lawrence, Henry Slade, Max Malins; Freddie Steward.


Replacements: Jack Walker, Mako Vunipola, Dan Cole, Nick Isiekwe, Ben Earl; Alex Mitchell, Marcus Smith, Henry Arundell.

Hope they're wrong about Isiekwe and it's actually Ribbans on the bench. And I still reckon it'll be a Smith/Farrell 10/12.

Disagree, Borthwick, Evans and Sinfield all made it reasonably clear Faz/Smith wasn't their plan A or B so I'd put very good money on them not partnering up. With that said, I'd put a tenner on us going into the world cup with Ford/Faz

That's a tasty backline.

Oxbow wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:44 am David Ribbans is leaving Saints at the end of the season to join Toulon. Pretty pissed off about this, Saints took him from obscurity and turned him into an international, then a French club comes along and waves a shit ton of money in his face and he's off. Can't really blame the player for wanting to maximise his earnings, but it's annoying that it's such an uneven playing field.

Simmonds, LCD, Marchant, Ribbans, a lot of English talent will be plying their trade in France next season, time to relax the rules about overseas players?

The leavers fall into two camps really
- mid 20s guys who are fringe internationals (or not even in the case of J. Simmonds) and young enough to come back after a couple of seasons away if they so choose.
- late 20s/early 30s guys who probably won't make the next world cup and are going for their ultimate or penultimate contract.

Some like S. Simmonds fall into both camps, he's a fringe international who probably won't make the next world cup

Oxbow wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:44 am David Ribbans is leaving Saints at the end of the season to join Toulon. Pretty pissed off about this, Saints took him from obscurity and turned him into an international, then a French club comes along and waves a shit ton of money in his face and he's off. Can't really blame the player for wanting to maximise his earnings, but it's annoying that it's such an uneven playing field.

Simmonds, LCD, Marchant, Ribbans, a lot of English talent will be plying their trade in France next season, time to relax the rules about overseas players?

Well, that's a bugger and no mistake!!!
Rated nhim from his first match for Saints. Will be difficult to replace.

Sounds like Faz to 10, Smith to the bench is confirmed

Oxbow wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:44 am David Ribbans is leaving Saints at the end of the season to join Toulon. Pretty pissed off about this, Saints took him from obscurity and turned him into an international, then a French club comes along and waves a shit ton of money in his face and he's off. Can't really blame the player for wanting to maximise his earnings, but it's annoying that it's such an uneven playing field.

Simmonds, LCD, Marchant, Ribbans, a lot of English talent will be plying their trade in France next season, time to relax the rules about overseas players?

Bit rich this - now you know how we Scots felt when your overly indebted clubs were poaching all our best players by offering lots of cash! As in the footie you sold your souls for cash, many to dodgy money sources and now its collapsing under the weight of debt and insolvency you're complaining about it? Perhaps a time to re-evaluate and get the finances and governance of the Premiership into proper order. Alternatively you could do what the football has done and seek out blood money from some ultra rich Middle East dictatorship? Perhaps CVC will come to the rescue?

dpedin wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:49 pm

Oxbow wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:44 am David Ribbans is leaving Saints at the end of the season to join Toulon. Pretty pissed off about this, Saints took him from obscurity and turned him into an international, then a French club comes along and waves a shit ton of money in his face and he's off. Can't really blame the player for wanting to maximise his earnings, but it's annoying that it's such an uneven playing field.

Simmonds, LCD, Marchant, Ribbans, a lot of English talent will be plying their trade in France next season, time to relax the rules about overseas players?

Bit rich this - now you know how we Scots felt when your overly indebted clubs were poaching all our best players by offering lots of cash! As in the footie you sold your souls for cash, many to dodgy money sources and now its collapsing under the weight of debt and insolvency you're complaining about it? Perhaps a time to re-evaluate and get the finances and governance of the Premiership into proper order. Alternatively you could do what the football has done and seek out blood money from some ultra rich Middle East dictatorship? Perhaps CVC will come to the rescue?

Piss off with this

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:54 pm

dpedin wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:49 pm

Oxbow wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:44 am David Ribbans is leaving Saints at the end of the season to join Toulon. Pretty pissed off about this, Saints took him from obscurity and turned him into an international, then a French club comes along and waves a shit ton of money in his face and he's off. Can't really blame the player for wanting to maximise his earnings, but it's annoying that it's such an uneven playing field.

Simmonds, LCD, Marchant, Ribbans, a lot of English talent will be plying their trade in France next season, time to relax the rules about overseas players?

Bit rich this - now you know how we Scots felt when your overly indebted clubs were poaching all our best players by offering lots of cash! As in the footie you sold your souls for cash, many to dodgy money sources and now its collapsing under the weight of debt and insolvency you're complaining about it? Perhaps a time to re-evaluate and get the finances and governance of the Premiership into proper order. Alternatively you could do what the football has done and seek out blood money from some ultra rich Middle East dictatorship? Perhaps CVC will come to the rescue?

Piss off with this

But he is right - isn’t he?

Monk wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:01 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:54 pm

dpedin wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:49 pm

Bit rich this - now you know how we Scots felt when your overly indebted clubs were poaching all our best players by offering lots of cash! As in the footie you sold your souls for cash, many to dodgy money sources and now its collapsing under the weight of debt and insolvency you're complaining about it? Perhaps a time to re-evaluate and get the finances and governance of the Premiership into proper order. Alternatively you could do what the football has done and seek out blood money from some ultra rich Middle East dictatorship? Perhaps CVC will come to the rescue?

Piss off with this

But he is right - isn’t he?

No

dpedin wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:49 pm

Oxbow wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:44 am David Ribbans is leaving Saints at the end of the season to join Toulon. Pretty pissed off about this, Saints took him from obscurity and turned him into an international, then a French club comes along and waves a shit ton of money in his face and he's off. Can't really blame the player for wanting to maximise his earnings, but it's annoying that it's such an uneven playing field.

Simmonds, LCD, Marchant, Ribbans, a lot of English talent will be plying their trade in France next season, time to relax the rules about overseas players?

Bit rich this - now you know how we Scots felt when your overly indebted clubs were poaching all our best players by offering lots of cash! As in the footie you sold your souls for cash, many to dodgy money sources and now its collapsing under the weight of debt and insolvency you're complaining about it? Perhaps a time to re-evaluate and get the finances and governance of the Premiership into proper order. Alternatively you could do what the football has done and seek out blood money from some ultra rich Middle East dictatorship? Perhaps CVC will come to the rescue?

Rather than just insult you I'd point out that we are at least partly responsible for Scotland surviving as a professional rugby nation over the years. Having a large amateur, semi-pro, and professional league structure next door that Scottish players of all levels can join with no hassles whatsoever has been hugely beneficial to Scottish professional rugby, which simply cannot sustain that sort of thing on its own. And whatever you've lost from our actions, you've more than gained back by years of selections of players who owe their professional livelihoods to English rugby and have a more tenuous link to Scottish rugby.

I don't know who put 50p in the Scottish dickheads this 6N but it's getting incredibly tiresome. I know you guys are capable of not being pricks, so maybe give it a go.

Monk wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:01 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:54 pm

dpedin wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:49 pm

Bit rich this - now you know how we Scots felt when your overly indebted clubs were poaching all our best players by offering lots of cash! As in the footie you sold your souls for cash, many to dodgy money sources and now its collapsing under the weight of debt and insolvency you're complaining about it? Perhaps a time to re-evaluate and get the finances and governance of the Premiership into proper order. Alternatively you could do what the football has done and seek out blood money from some ultra rich Middle East dictatorship? Perhaps CVC will come to the rescue?

Piss off with this

But he is right - isn’t he?

To an extent in that we're now experiencing from the Top14 what a lot of nations have down the years with players being lured to the Prem for higher wages.

However, the Scots really have less reason to be complaining about that than others. With just two pro teams and a small population plus rugby being a minority sport in their country, they really struggle to grow and maintain a decent size pro player base (hence why the SRU have a team dedicated to finding players outside of Scotland who are qualified in some way and the number of ex-England U20s currently playing for them). They often discuss in their thread how certain players get stuck in a queue and lack opportunities at Glasgow or Edinburgh, so one could argue that farming players out to Prem teams is actually to their benefit
1. It frees up space at Glasgow and Edinburgh
2. It frees up money if their shipping out the likes of Hogg and Russell.
3. Every Scottish player elsewhere is occupying a slot that could be filled by someone qualified for a near rival. Given that it'll typically be the Prem or Top14, they'll have a Scot blocking an Englishman or Frenchman.

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:11 pm
I don't know who put 50p in the Scottish dickheads this 6N but it's getting incredibly tiresome. I know you guys are capable of not being pricks, so maybe give it a go.

It wouldn't be a Sweaty spending 50p.

We also don't benefit at all from our players going to France.

And it's been years of English rugby having a salary cap to try and keep things sustainable, and having the "no overseas players" rule for the England team to prevent our top players from going straight to France for the money, so this isn't exactly a new problem. However, it's much less of a problem now than it has been for ages, because the French have changed their own rules and foreign players are less enticing for them now. So it's daft to suggest we need to change our rules again - players will move on, but the numbers aren't dangerous for us.

We're all pretty honest about the financial issues with professional rugby in this country, and it's never been a secret that keeping the clubs going has been a case of rich people lighting huge amounts of money on fire every year. It's been like that for a very, very long time. Obviously people like dpedin would much rather English professional rugby just died off, because his loathing for England and the English oozes through pretty much every post, but on balance I'd say the efforts to make a professional rugby product have been largely successful, the sacrifices made by the club owners should be respected, and that whatever the complaints are about PRL's behaviour over Europe, there's zero question that the pro game in one of the biggest rugby markets in the world would be a much bigger disaster if it weren't for these guys.

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:11 pm

dpedin wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:49 pm

Oxbow wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:44 am David Ribbans is leaving Saints at the end of the season to join Toulon. Pretty pissed off about this, Saints took him from obscurity and turned him into an international, then a French club comes along and waves a shit ton of money in his face and he's off. Can't really blame the player for wanting to maximise his earnings, but it's annoying that it's such an uneven playing field.

Simmonds, LCD, Marchant, Ribbans, a lot of English talent will be plying their trade in France next season, time to relax the rules about overseas players?

Bit rich this - now you know how we Scots felt when your overly indebted clubs were poaching all our best players by offering lots of cash! As in the footie you sold your souls for cash, many to dodgy money sources and now its collapsing under the weight of debt and insolvency you're complaining about it? Perhaps a time to re-evaluate and get the finances and governance of the Premiership into proper order. Alternatively you could do what the football has done and seek out blood money from some ultra rich Middle East dictatorship? Perhaps CVC will come to the rescue?

Rather than just insult you I'd point out that we are at least partly responsible for Scotland surviving as a professional rugby nation over the years. Having a large amateur, semi-pro, and professional league structure next door that Scottish players of all levels can join with no hassles whatsoever has been hugely beneficial to Scottish professional rugby, which simply cannot sustain that sort of thing on its own. And whatever you've lost from our actions, you've more than gained back by years of selections of players who owe their professional livelihoods to English rugby and have a more tenuous link to Scottish rugby.

I don't know who put 50p in the Scottish dickheads this 6N but it's getting incredibly tiresome. I know you guys are capable of not being pricks, so maybe give it a go.

A little over the top, old boy.

Slick wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:37 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:11 pm

dpedin wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:49 pm

Bit rich this - now you know how we Scots felt when your overly indebted clubs were poaching all our best players by offering lots of cash! As in the footie you sold your souls for cash, many to dodgy money sources and now its collapsing under the weight of debt and insolvency you're complaining about it? Perhaps a time to re-evaluate and get the finances and governance of the Premiership into proper order. Alternatively you could do what the football has done and seek out blood money from some ultra rich Middle East dictatorship? Perhaps CVC will come to the rescue?

Rather than just insult you I'd point out that we are at least partly responsible for Scotland surviving as a professional rugby nation over the years. Having a large amateur, semi-pro, and professional league structure next door that Scottish players of all levels can join with no hassles whatsoever has been hugely beneficial to Scottish professional rugby, which simply cannot sustain that sort of thing on its own. And whatever you've lost from our actions, you've more than gained back by years of selections of players who owe their professional livelihoods to English rugby and have a more tenuous link to Scottish rugby.

I don't know who put 50p in the Scottish dickheads this 6N but it's getting incredibly tiresome. I know you guys are capable of not being pricks, so maybe give it a go.

A little over the top, old boy.

It's three in a row, that's a pattern. I quite liked how this board was largely free of the dribbling parochial nonsense, and to have people sniping on this thread is just dull.

Starting

15. Freddie Steward
14. Max Malins
13. Henry Slade
12. Ollie Lawrence
11. Ollie Hassell-Collins
10. Owen Farrell (C)
9. Jack van Poortvliet

1. Ellis Genge (VC)
2. Jamie George
3. Kyle Sinckler
4. Maro Itoje
5. Ollie Chessum
6. Lewis Ludlam
7. Jack Willis
8. Alex Dombrandt

Replacements

16. Jack Walker
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Dan Cole
19. Nick Isiekwe
20. Ben Earl
21. Alex Mitchell
22. Marcus Smith
23. Henry Arundell

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... names-team

As expected then.

Not expecting a lot from Lawrence/Slade tbh, Lawrence has been great for Bath, but at 13 and hasn’t had an impact running into traffic playing for England before (can’t even recall him denting the line, let alone breaking it), but let’s see.

Otherwise, the changes look pretty good

Joost wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:01 pm As expected then.

Not expecting a lot from Lawrence/Slade tbh, Lawrence has been great for Bath, but at 13 and hasn’t had an impact running into traffic playing for England before (can’t even recall him denting the line, let alone breaking it), but let’s see.

Otherwise, the changes look pretty good

Mako still stinking the bench up

Midfield had defensive issues last week, so let's change two players out of the three, one of them out of position at 12, and keep the one who was most often at fault.

I hope they go well, I really do, but I can't say I'll be surprised if an entirely new combo doesn't gel in either attack or defence.

A shame, because the rest of the team looks decent.

Margin__Walker wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:50 am Not for me. Keep the rule in place. It keeps core England players in their prime in the domestic league.

You'll always get fringe player leaving and more established names coming past their peak at the end of a world cup cycle. A few more at the moment with the additional financial disparity, but overall the rule works imo.

We're ranked outside the top 5 and consistently playing some rubbish rugby for several decades. And it's not like the clubs are keeping the costs down on international players

Which may not mean it needs scrapping as a concept, it might mean we need to lean into the EPS or something similar. Just if it's working who's it working for, and what questions/concerns is it addressing that has good and practical outcomes.

I think we need something along the lines of you can only play 15, maybe up to 20 games, outside England games if you want to be considered for EPS inclusion. And you need to be playing in our season, which rules out playing Soup rugby, but opens up playing in France, or even maybe Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Not sure about SA, there might be reasonable travel concerns

SaintK wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:08 pm

Joost wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:01 pm As expected then.

Not expecting a lot from Lawrence/Slade tbh, Lawrence has been great for Bath, but at 13 and hasn’t had an impact running into traffic playing for England before (can’t even recall him denting the line, let alone breaking it), but let’s see.

Otherwise, the changes look pretty good

Mako still stinking the bench up

I really don't understand why we're sending Rodd home earlier in the week. He's the ok in the tight, good in the loose prop in the squad who's actually in form and has a higher ceiling than a declining Mako.

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:12 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:50 am Not for me. Keep the rule in place. It keeps core England players in their prime in the domestic league.

You'll always get fringe player leaving and more established names coming past their peak at the end of a world cup cycle. A few more at the moment with the additional financial disparity, but overall the rule works imo.

We're ranked outside the top 5 and consistently playing some rubbish rugby for several decades. And it's not like the clubs are keeping the costs down on international players

Which may not mean it needs scrapping as a concept, it might mean we need to lean into the EPS or something similar. Just if it's working who's it working for, and what questions/concerns is it addressing that has good and practical outcomes.

I think we need something along the lines of you can only play 15, maybe up to 20 games, outside England games if you want to be considered for EPS inclusion. And you need to be playing in our season, which rules out playing Soup rugby, but opens up playing in France, or even maybe Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Not sure about SA, there might be reasonable travel concerns

We're not ranked outside the top five because a few fringe players play in France.

I don't see how opening up selection benefits the England team. If it gets to a point where core England players in their prime are moving overseas, then there's a conversation to be had. That's not happening at the moment though.

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:12 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:50 am Not for me. Keep the rule in place. It keeps core England players in their prime in the domestic league.

You'll always get fringe player leaving and more established names coming past their peak at the end of a world cup cycle. A few more at the moment with the additional financial disparity, but overall the rule works imo.

We're ranked outside the top 5 and consistently playing some rubbish rugby for several decades. And it's not like the clubs are keeping the costs down on international players

Which may not mean it needs scrapping as a concept, it might mean we need to lean into the EPS or something similar. Just if it's working who's it working for, and what questions/concerns is it addressing that has good and practical outcomes.

I think we need something along the lines of you can only play 15, maybe up to 20 games, outside England games if you want to be considered for EPS inclusion. And you need to be playing in our season, which rules out playing Soup rugby, but opens up playing in France, or even maybe Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Not sure about SA, there might be reasonable travel concerns

We're ranked outside the top 5 because we've had a bizarre finale to an otherwise successful coach, where we played absolutely no rugby whilst rotating our side around with no discernible plan to it. If we take England since 2000, we've won seven six nations titles (two grand slams), one world cup, reached two finals and have a record against the southern big three that unscientifically (I have not checked) I would guess is either the best of the european nations, or at least comparable. I think we should have done a bit better in the 6N, particularly when it comes to GS, but this record is again comparable to anyone else's. There's no crisis in England that isn't transient.

It was only four years ago that people were bleating about the death of France as an international side, and for a while it looked like we had Ireland in our back pocket. Let's not overreact to some poor results by losing our best players to France which suddenly means they get flogged into the dirt and can't rest pre-internationals.

sockwithaticket wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:11 pm Midfield had defensive issues last week, so let's change two players out of the three, one of them out of position at 12, and keep the one who was most often at fault.

I hope they go well, I really do, but I can't say I'll be surprised if an entirely new combo doesn't gel in either attack or defence.

A shame, because the rest of the team looks decent.

I hope you're not talking about the most inspirational leader of men since Alexander the Great there.

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:12 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:50 am Not for me. Keep the rule in place. It keeps core England players in their prime in the domestic league.

You'll always get fringe player leaving and more established names coming past their peak at the end of a world cup cycle. A few more at the moment with the additional financial disparity, but overall the rule works imo.

We're ranked outside the top 5 and consistently playing some rubbish rugby for several decades.

You might be over-egging that somewhat.

Assuming pre-professionalism is irrelevant, then since 95 we've made 3 RWC finals and won one, we've won 7 6N titles (2 gran slams) plus a 5N title. We've held the record for T1 international successive victories. We've been ranked #1 in the world 3 times, for a total of 40 weeks - 3rd behind SA and NZ. Our worst ranking is 8th, higher than that for Argentina (12th), Australia (9th), France (10th), Ireland (9th), Scotland (12th), and Wales (10th). Only SA (7th) and NZ (5th) have a higher floor.

It's taken an eye-openingly poor run of results for us, to actually drop out of the top 5.

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:25 pm
We're ranked outside the top 5 because we've had a bizarre finale to an otherwise successful coach, where we played absolutely no rugby whilst rotating our side around with no discernible plan to it. If we take England since 2000, we've won seven six nations titles (two grand slams), one world cup, reached two finals and have a record against the southern big three that unscientifically (I have not checked) I would guess is either the best of the european nations, or at least comparable. I think we should have done a bit better in the 6N, particularly when it comes to GS, but this record is again comparable to anyone else's. There's no crisis in England that isn't transient.

It was only four years ago that people were bleating about the death of France as an international side, and for a while it looked like we had Ireland in our back pocket. Let's not overreact to some poor results by losing our best players to France which suddenly means they get flogged into the dirt and can't rest pre-internationals.

Most of this is true but I don't think England are in great shape due to a 'bizarre finale' of the Eddie Jones era. His mismanagement of the England team lasted at least 3 years and it infiltrated every element of the elite structures. There is literally no discernible legacy that you could describe as positive. No player succession plans, no coaches (though Jones would argue that Borthwick is his product), a dreadful relationship with the Premiership clubs, he trashed the relationship with the public schools who are just about the only schools that still play rugby in England seriously, no player development, Ben Youngs on 117 caps ffs etc etc etc. It's a massive hangover and it will take a long time to unwind all the toxicity that Jones brought with him. And to be honest, as I commented before his appointment, I don't think Borthwick is the right person - he is tainted by the Jones era and it looks like he's a 'jobs for the boys' kind of coach which doesn't bode well for future player selection being quite so meritocratic as he says it will be.

Kawazaki wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:53 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:25 pm
We're ranked outside the top 5 because we've had a bizarre finale to an otherwise successful coach, where we played absolutely no rugby whilst rotating our side around with no discernible plan to it. If we take England since 2000, we've won seven six nations titles (two grand slams), one world cup, reached two finals and have a record against the southern big three that unscientifically (I have not checked) I would guess is either the best of the european nations, or at least comparable. I think we should have done a bit better in the 6N, particularly when it comes to GS, but this record is again comparable to anyone else's. There's no crisis in England that isn't transient.

It was only four years ago that people were bleating about the death of France as an international side, and for a while it looked like we had Ireland in our back pocket. Let's not overreact to some poor results by losing our best players to France which suddenly means they get flogged into the dirt and can't rest pre-internationals.

Most of this is true but I don't think England are in great shape due to a 'bizarre finale' of the Eddie Jones era. His mismanagement of the England team lasted at least 3 years and it infiltrated every element of the elite structures. There is literally no discernible legacy that you could describe as positive. No player succession plans, no coaches (though Jones would argue that Borthwick is his product), a dreadful relationship with the Premiership clubs, he trashed the relationship with the public schools who are just about the only schools that still play rugby in England seriously, no player development, Ben Youngs on 117 caps ffs etc etc etc. It's a massive hangover and it will take a long time to unwind all the toxicity that Jones brought with him. And to be honest, as I commented before his appointment, I don't think Borthwick is the right person - he is tainted by the Jones era and it looks like he's a 'jobs for the boys' kind of coach which doesn't bode well for future player selection being quite so meritocratic as he says it will be.

Hmm. Within those last three years we won the 6N and the Autumn Nations Cup (if that matters). Then things went drastically downhill.
Jones' first four years cannot be considered anything other than a major success. We went on a world record winning streak, won a first grand slam since 2003 (incidentally for me the only one I really remember really well, which is a factor in how I view Eddie), battered Australia again and again and made a RWC final including probably the best, or top 3 at least, performance by a professional England team along the way. Not a bad legacy.
As for how long it will take to unravel his denouement, picking a coherent 15 seems to have made a major dent already. In doing so Borthwick has binned most of Jones' favourites and brought in a lot of young lads or people who had been sidelined, as well as today scrapping the combo Jones put his job on the line for. Continuation this is not.

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:02 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:53 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:25 pm
We're ranked outside the top 5 because we've had a bizarre finale to an otherwise successful coach, where we played absolutely no rugby whilst rotating our side around with no discernible plan to it. If we take England since 2000, we've won seven six nations titles (two grand slams), one world cup, reached two finals and have a record against the southern big three that unscientifically (I have not checked) I would guess is either the best of the european nations, or at least comparable. I think we should have done a bit better in the 6N, particularly when it comes to GS, but this record is again comparable to anyone else's. There's no crisis in England that isn't transient.

It was only four years ago that people were bleating about the death of France as an international side, and for a while it looked like we had Ireland in our back pocket. Let's not overreact to some poor results by losing our best players to France which suddenly means they get flogged into the dirt and can't rest pre-internationals.

Most of this is true but I don't think England are in great shape due to a 'bizarre finale' of the Eddie Jones era. His mismanagement of the England team lasted at least 3 years and it infiltrated every element of the elite structures. There is literally no discernible legacy that you could describe as positive. No player succession plans, no coaches (though Jones would argue that Borthwick is his product), a dreadful relationship with the Premiership clubs, he trashed the relationship with the public schools who are just about the only schools that still play rugby in England seriously, no player development, Ben Youngs on 117 caps ffs etc etc etc. It's a massive hangover and it will take a long time to unwind all the toxicity that Jones brought with him. And to be honest, as I commented before his appointment, I don't think Borthwick is the right person - he is tainted by the Jones era and it looks like he's a 'jobs for the boys' kind of coach which doesn't bode well for future player selection being quite so meritocratic as he says it will be.

Hmm. Within those last three years we won the 6N and the Autumn Nations Cup (if that matters). Then things went drastically downhill.
Jones' first four years cannot be considered anything other than a major success. We went on a world record winning streak, won a first grand slam since 2003 (incidentally for me the only one I really remember really well, which is a factor in how I view Eddie), battered Australia again and again and made a RWC final including probably the best, or top 3 at least, performance by a professional England team along the way. Not a bad legacy.
As for how long it will take to unravel his denouement, picking a coherent 15 seems to have made a major dent already. In doing so Borthwick has binned most of Jones' favourites and brought in a lot of young lads or people who had been sidelined, as well as today scrapping the combo Jones put his job on the line for. Continuation this is not.

That’s pretty much how I see it, early Eddie repaired the Lancaster horror. The rfu should never have extended him
Past 2019 when he went completely crazy.

Kawazaki wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:53 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:25 pm
We're ranked outside the top 5 because we've had a bizarre finale to an otherwise successful coach, where we played absolutely no rugby whilst rotating our side around with no discernible plan to it. If we take England since 2000, we've won seven six nations titles (two grand slams), one world cup, reached two finals and have a record against the southern big three that unscientifically (I have not checked) I would guess is either the best of the european nations, or at least comparable. I think we should have done a bit better in the 6N, particularly when it comes to GS, but this record is again comparable to anyone else's. There's no crisis in England that isn't transient.

It was only four years ago that people were bleating about the death of France as an international side, and for a while it looked like we had Ireland in our back pocket. Let's not overreact to some poor results by losing our best players to France which suddenly means they get flogged into the dirt and can't rest pre-internationals.

Most of this is true but I don't think England are in great shape due to a 'bizarre finale' of the Eddie Jones era. His mismanagement of the England team lasted at least 3 years and it infiltrated every element of the elite structures. There is literally no discernible legacy that you could describe as positive. No player succession plans, no coaches (though Jones would argue that Borthwick is his product), a dreadful relationship with the Premiership clubs, he trashed the relationship with the public schools who are just about the only schools that still play rugby in England seriously, no player development, Ben Youngs on 117 caps ffs etc etc etc. It's a massive hangover and it will take a long time to unwind all the toxicity that Jones brought with him. And to be honest, as I commented before his appointment, I don't think Borthwick is the right person - he is tainted by the Jones era and it looks like he's a 'jobs for the boys' kind of coach which doesn't bode well for future player selection being quite so meritocratic as he says it will be.

That's a bit harsh (re Borthers). Whilst his coaching team is drawn from those that he knows and trusts, the team he's picked looks based on form and quality rather than old allegiances. That he's also called out the shocking state of what EJ left him, is also a good sign. Dropping Youngs must earn him some brownie points with the fans.

I like the look of this latest side - it looks pretty solid and still has some pace to it - we shouldn't expect miracles but I think we'll be better off with just one person calling the shots - and there's little doubt that Farrell's reputation is for good game management, even if we give up on some 'flair' in that position. And the bench looks like it could provide some impact - albeit I'd question the selections of Isiekwe over Ribbans and Mako over Rodd.

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:02 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:53 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:25 pm
We're ranked outside the top 5 because we've had a bizarre finale to an otherwise successful coach, where we played absolutely no rugby whilst rotating our side around with no discernible plan to it. If we take England since 2000, we've won seven six nations titles (two grand slams), one world cup, reached two finals and have a record against the southern big three that unscientifically (I have not checked) I would guess is either the best of the european nations, or at least comparable. I think we should have done a bit better in the 6N, particularly when it comes to GS, but this record is again comparable to anyone else's. There's no crisis in England that isn't transient.

It was only four years ago that people were bleating about the death of France as an international side, and for a while it looked like we had Ireland in our back pocket. Let's not overreact to some poor results by losing our best players to France which suddenly means they get flogged into the dirt and can't rest pre-internationals.

Most of this is true but I don't think England are in great shape due to a 'bizarre finale' of the Eddie Jones era. His mismanagement of the England team lasted at least 3 years and it infiltrated every element of the elite structures. There is literally no discernible legacy that you could describe as positive. No player succession plans, no coaches (though Jones would argue that Borthwick is his product), a dreadful relationship with the Premiership clubs, he trashed the relationship with the public schools who are just about the only schools that still play rugby in England seriously, no player development, Ben Youngs on 117 caps ffs etc etc etc. It's a massive hangover and it will take a long time to unwind all the toxicity that Jones brought with him. And to be honest, as I commented before his appointment, I don't think Borthwick is the right person - he is tainted by the Jones era and it looks like he's a 'jobs for the boys' kind of coach which doesn't bode well for future player selection being quite so meritocratic as he says it will be.

Hmm. Within those last three years we won the 6N and the Autumn Nations Cup (if that matters). Then things went drastically downhill.
Jones' first four years cannot be considered anything other than a major success. We went on a world record winning streak, won a first grand slam since 2003 (incidentally for me the only one I really remember really well, which is a factor in how I view Eddie), battered Australia again and again and made a RWC final including probably the best, or top 3 at least, performance by a professional England team along the way. Not a bad legacy.
As for how long it will take to unravel his denouement, picking a coherent 15 seems to have made a major dent already. In doing so Borthwick has binned most of Jones' favourites and brought in a lot of young lads or people who had been sidelined, as well as today scrapping the combo Jones put his job on the line for. Continuation this is not.

That is all factually correct (without checking!)... BUT, seeing how England have been playing for the last year under Eddie, would you honestly accept the crap that was served up, if we could reach another RWC final again? I'm not sure I would. His relentless focus on just that was destroying so much of what I love about rugby in England. Combined with the shit show of a Premiership that the RFU presided over, I think there is so much wrong with "the system" that Eddie is also a convenient escape goat.

He was far, far better than he demonstrated at his worst. He was also nowhere near as good as the best performances might have suggested, IMO.

Saints vs LI in the Cup Whose Name I Keep Forgetting this evening.

I gather James Grayson is playing, he seems to have dropped off radar a bit - assume injured? On that note, of the offspring of ex-players, what happened to Harry Mallinder? Just noticed he's out in Japan, wasn't seen as up to rigours of Premiership?

pjm1 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:18 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:02 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:53 pm


Most of this is true but I don't think England are in great shape due to a 'bizarre finale' of the Eddie Jones era. His mismanagement of the England team lasted at least 3 years and it infiltrated every element of the elite structures. There is literally no discernible legacy that you could describe as positive. No player succession plans, no coaches (though Jones would argue that Borthwick is his product), a dreadful relationship with the Premiership clubs, he trashed the relationship with the public schools who are just about the only schools that still play rugby in England seriously, no player development, Ben Youngs on 117 caps ffs etc etc etc. It's a massive hangover and it will take a long time to unwind all the toxicity that Jones brought with him. And to be honest, as I commented before his appointment, I don't think Borthwick is the right person - he is tainted by the Jones era and it looks like he's a 'jobs for the boys' kind of coach which doesn't bode well for future player selection being quite so meritocratic as he says it will be.

Hmm. Within those last three years we won the 6N and the Autumn Nations Cup (if that matters). Then things went drastically downhill.
Jones' first four years cannot be considered anything other than a major success. We went on a world record winning streak, won a first grand slam since 2003 (incidentally for me the only one I really remember really well, which is a factor in how I view Eddie), battered Australia again and again and made a RWC final including probably the best, or top 3 at least, performance by a professional England team along the way. Not a bad legacy.
As for how long it will take to unravel his denouement, picking a coherent 15 seems to have made a major dent already. In doing so Borthwick has binned most of Jones' favourites and brought in a lot of young lads or people who had been sidelined, as well as today scrapping the combo Jones put his job on the line for. Continuation this is not.

That is all factually correct (without checking!)... BUT, seeing how England have been playing for the last year under Eddie, would you honestly accept the crap that was served up, if we could reach another RWC final again? I'm not sure I would. His relentless focus on just that was destroying so much of what I love about rugby in England. Combined with the shit show of a Premiership that the RFU presided over, I think there is so much wrong with "the system" that Eddie is also a convenient escape goat.

He was far, far better than he demonstrated at his worst. He was also nowhere near as good as the best performances might have suggested, IMO.

To answer your question, no I don't accept shite for years in return for a (possible) World Cup run. I have Scottish family and Welsh friends so winning 6N games is pretty important to me! Equally, in Eddie's defence his KPIs were all world cup based. He's an Aussie and unfamiliar with the tribal element of the 6N and the particular challenge England and their fans face within it so can't really be blamed for accepting his brief without too much question (it also ties into what he wants, the last trophy outstanding for him).

So the bigger question is why the RFU decided everything was RWC based, though they appear to have worked out now they shat the bed on that one. They got media blowback but fundamentally it will be because ticket sales were sluggish and I know as a fact that they failed to sell out hospitality for the Scotland game, haven't sold out anything for Sunday and there are still hospitality slots for France available.

I think I've posted this a couple of times before - in Eddie's last couple of years I felt cheated out of my national team. There's only c.10 games a year and they ought to (and generally have) got the heart pumping and get fans out of their seats. By the end even the win against Wales last year just felt a bit meh.

inactionman wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:32 pm Saints vs LI in the Cup Whose Name I Keep Forgetting this evening.

I gather James Grayson is playing, he seems to have dropped off radar a bit - assume injured? On that note, of the offspring of ex-players, what happened to Harry Mallinder? Just noticed he's out in Japan, wasn't seen as up to rigours of Premiership?

Grayson had been injured for quite a while, this is his first game back for Saints, though he did turn out for Bedford at the weekend.

Mallinder, who knows, doesn't seem to have played since moving to Japan and the plan was to move there to get more game time.

Has anyone listened to the Eddie podcast?

It's just called 'Eddie' apparently