The Official English Rugby Thread

[inactionman]

..and Piers Francis comes on and gets a yellow for taking Carreras out in the air.

To be honest, I'm getting a bit tired of defending teams swarming in front of the catcher, trying to interrupt the challenging player. Francis needs to be more careful, but it's asking for trouble.

Rees-Zammit really doesn't do much other than run fast. Gets the ball out wide against a 14-man Bath defence and gets bundled into touch.

Has to be the most tackle shy player in intl rugby at present.

Aye. He had a half-break at the end which shows what he can do with a bit of space, but it's all a bit flat-track bully and his defence is ordinary at best.

[Paddington Bear]

..and Piers Francis comes on and gets a yellow for taking Carreras out in the air.

To be honest, I'm getting a bit tired of defending teams swarming in front of the catcher, trying to interrupt the challenging player. Francis needs to be more careful, but it's asking for trouble.

Rees-Zammit really doesn't do much other than run fast. Gets the ball out wide against a 14-man Bath defence and gets bundled into touch.

Has to be the most tackle shy player in intl rugby at present.

Aye. He had a half-break at the end which shows what he can do with a bit of space, but it's all a bit flat-track bully and his defence is ordinary at best.

He’s been worked out, very ordinary player

[SaintK]

Saints hang on to beat Sarries 38-29
Lots of new faces for Sarries who played with 14 men for 70 minutes and down to 13 at one point

[notfatcat]

Quins have got 57% more rugby schools feeding their academy than Saracens have got. Don't kid yourself, it's pretty average fare that Quins have been churning out. Bang average in fact.

Current Eng U20 squad -

Saracens x2
Quins x5
(150% more players)

Current Eng U18 squad -

Saracens x2
Quins x7
(350% more players)

[Kawazaki]

Quins have got 57% more rugby schools feeding their academy than Saracens have got. Don't kid yourself, it's pretty average fare that Quins have been churning out. Bang average in fact.

Current Eng U20 squad -

Saracens x2
Quins x5
(150% more players)

Current Eng U18 squad -

Saracens x2
Quins x7
(350% more players)

And then where it really counts;

2023 6Ns England squad -

Saracens academy x6
Quins academy x3

[SaintK]

Just to join in this tedious argument.
2023 England U18's Saints 4
2023 England squad Saints 4
Anymore for anymore?

[Margin__Walker]

U18 Academy League Champions (beating Saints, Sarries and Quins on the way) - London Irish

This is fun

[sockwithaticket]

The idea that Sarries' academy is better than anyone else's is a bit of a stretch. They've had one generational group come through together, but the likes of George, Farrell, Kruis etc. are all getting on a bit and since then it's been the odd exceptional player and some Prem level pros just like pretty much every other club which suggests that core group coming through at the same time was more luck than anything else.

Similarly, though to a slightly lesser extent, Exeter had the likes of Nowell, Slade, Cowand-Dickie and Simmonds all come through at the same time, but nothing quite like that group since. Sometimes you just happen to get a particularly strong crop of players.

[Kawazaki]

The idea that Sarries' academy is better than anyone else's is a bit of a stretch. They've had one generational group come through together, but the likes of George, Farrell, Kruis etc. are all getting on a bit and since then it's been the odd exceptional player and some Prem level pros just like pretty much every other club which suggests that core group coming through at the same time was more luck than anything else.

Similarly, though to a slightly lesser extent, Exeter had the likes of Nowell, Slade, Cowand-Dickie and Simmonds all come through at the same time, but nothing quite like that group since. Sometimes you just happen to get a particularly strong crop of players.

I haven't said Saracens academy is better. I'm saying that the Quins academy is underperforming given it has such an enormous advantage regards the school catchment numbers it controls.

[JM2K6]

Quins have got 57% more rugby schools feeding their academy than Saracens have got. Don't kid yourself, it's pretty average fare that Quins have been churning out. Bang average in fact.

Current Eng U20 squad -

Saracens x2
Quins x5
(150% more players)

Current Eng U18 squad -

Saracens x2
Quins x7
(350% more players)

And then where it really counts;

2023 6Ns England squad -

Saracens academy x6
Quins academy x3

It's true that the Saracens academy of 10+ years ago had a glut of fine players though it's a shame from a 6N perspective that both Malins and Earl were turfed out by the end of the tournament, leaving just Isiekwe to carry the torch for modern day academy.

[SaintK]

U18 Academy League Champions (beating Saints, Sarries and Quins on the way) - London Irish

This is fun

[Paddington Bear]

Ashton stopped just short on 99 by Hogg’s covering tackle. Dickson currently talking himself into giving a bizarre penalty try and red

[sockwithaticket]

Players dive onto tackled but still moving players all the time.

How is this even a penalty?!

[petej]

Ashton stopped just short on 99 by Hogg’s covering tackle. Dickson currently talking himself into giving a bizarre penalty try and red

Yep. Strange as the Exeter player didn't dive on top at all but went to ground and slid into contact. Bullshit card and penalty try.

Ashton gets his 100th try.

[Paddington Bear]

And Ashton tons up. No splash alas. What a man

[Kawazaki]

Rugby Union has created refereeing monsters.

[Paddington Bear]

No doubt that the red has ruined what was a competitive game, this is a procession and not a particularly interesting one

[petej]

No doubt that the red has ruined what was a competitive game, this is a procession and not a particularly interesting one

Happens too often.

[Paddington Bear]

No doubt that the red has ruined what was a competitive game, this is a procession and not a particularly interesting one

Happens too often.

Yeah I’ve not been too sympathetic to a lot of the ‘what are we supposed to do?’ style stuff from players who’ve smacked someone in the head but the game is increasingly resembling a lottery. I really hope they sort it out ASAP as the world cup should theoretically be a cracker

[petej]

No doubt that the red has ruined what was a competitive game, this is a procession and not a particularly interesting one

Happens too often.

Yeah I’ve not been too sympathetic to a lot of the ‘what are we supposed to do?’ style stuff from players who’ve smacked someone in the head but the game is increasingly resembling a lottery. I really hope they sort it out ASAP as the world cup should theoretically be a cracker

This one though wasn't anything like that just the ref being special. Ashton on 101 now.

[Paddington Bear]

Happens too often.

Yeah I’ve not been too sympathetic to a lot of the ‘what are we supposed to do?’ style stuff from players who’ve smacked someone in the head but the game is increasingly resembling a lottery. I really hope they sort it out ASAP as the world cup should theoretically be a cracker

This one though wasn't anything like that just the ref being special. Ashton on 101 now.

Dickson is a uniquely poor ref which doesn’t help, only Adamson is in the same bracket

[Happyhooker]

Ashton stopped just short on 99 by Hogg’s covering tackle. Dickson currently talking himself into giving a bizarre penalty try and red

Yep. Strange as the Exeter player didn't dive on top at all but went to ground and slid into contact. Bullshit card and penalty try.

Ashton gets his 100th try.

Anyone got a link to a clip of this. The exeter lads are going nuts on social media

[Happyhooker]

Got it. That's fucking ridiculous

[ASMO]

That was a bumming of epic proportions, red card or not.

[Kawazaki]

That was a bumming of epic proportions, red card or not.

The red card ruined the match. The referee ruined the match.

[Torquemada 1420]

I haven't said Saracens academy is better. I'm saying that the Quins academy is underperforming given it has such an enormous advantage regards the school catchment numbers it controls.

Might I just clarify something (@ all of you)? Is this still very much non-state schools?

[Paddington Bear]

I haven't said Saracens academy is better. I'm saying that the Quins academy is underperforming given it has such an enormous advantage regards the school catchment numbers it controls.

Might I just clarify something (@ all of you)? Is this still very much non-state schools?

My understanding is that its schools that take rugby seriously, which obviously has a very very strong private bias. State schools with a proper rugby programme like RGS High Wycombe would be included unless I’ve missed something

[sockwithaticket]

That was a bumming of epic proportions, red card or not.

The red card ruined the match. The referee ruined the match.

Exeter ruined it by capitulating, we've all seen games with red cards, earlier ones even, where the team on the receiving end make a far better fist of things than that and sometimes even go on to win.

Red cards tend to only make that much of a difference when the receiving team is significantly inferior to the other or when they react poorly.

[SaintK]

That was a bumming of epic proportions, red card or not.

The red card ruined the match. The referee ruined the match.

Exeter ruined it by capitulating, we've all seen games with red cards, earlier ones even, where the team on the receiving end make a far better fist of things than that and sometimes even go on to win.

Red cards tend to only make that much of a difference when the receiving team is significantly inferior to the other or when they react poorly.

Sarries yesterday against Saints down to 14 after 8 minutes and were pressing hard for a win at the end with a 2nd/3rd team
Were hauling Saints in most of the 2nd half

[Kawazaki]

That was a bumming of epic proportions, red card or not.

The red card ruined the match. The referee ruined the match.

Exeter ruined it by capitulating, we've all seen games with red cards, earlier ones even, where the team on the receiving end make a far better fist of things than that and sometimes even go on to win.

Red cards tend to only make that much of a difference when the receiving team is significantly inferior to the other or when they react poorly.

The ref ruined the match. Did you watch what actually happened?

FFS.

[sockwithaticket]

The red card ruined the match. The referee ruined the match.

Exeter ruined it by capitulating, we've all seen games with red cards, earlier ones even, where the team on the receiving end make a far better fist of things than that and sometimes even go on to win.

Red cards tend to only make that much of a difference when the receiving team is significantly inferior to the other or when they react poorly.

Sarries yesterday against Saints down to 14 after 8 minutes and were pressing hard for a win at the end with a 2nd/3rd team
Were hauling Saints in most of the 2nd half

Yep, watched that game and it was at the forefront of my mind, but also games like 3rd Aus-France test in 2021 where Koroibete got carded in the 5th minute and Aus still won.

[sockwithaticket]

The red card ruined the match. The referee ruined the match.

Exeter ruined it by capitulating, we've all seen games with red cards, earlier ones even, where the team on the receiving end make a far better fist of things than that and sometimes even go on to win.

Red cards tend to only make that much of a difference when the receiving team is significantly inferior to the other or when they react poorly.

The ref ruined the match. Did you watch what actually happened?

FFS.

No he didn't, yes I did.

To reiterate, we have numerous examples over the last several years of red cards not spoiling games. So where a team gets absolutely torn to shreds after a red card is issued, that seems like much more of an issue with the team than the card.

That's not to say it was a legitimate card, it was a baffling interpretation of the law from Dickson, but once it was issued Exeter only have themselves to blame for how they responded.

[Slick]

That was a bumming of epic proportions, red card or not.

The red card ruined the match. The referee ruined the match.

Exeter ruined it by capitulating, we've all seen games with red cards, earlier ones even, where the team on the receiving end make a far better fist of things than that and sometimes even go on to win.

Red cards tend to only make that much of a difference when the receiving team is significantly inferior to the other or when they react poorly.

This seems to be something you and jmk are adamant about. I haven’t seen stats for it but it instinctively feels utter bollocks. Reds ruin games

[Margin__Walker]

England U18s just wrecked Ireland U18s 14 - 56 in the U18 6N. Seriously easy on the eye performance. Worth watching for Kepu Tuipulotu's first try alone, but lots of other lovely play in there.

[Torquemada 1420]

I haven't said Saracens academy is better. I'm saying that the Quins academy is underperforming given it has such an enormous advantage regards the school catchment numbers it controls.

Might I just clarify something (@ all of you)? Is this still very much non-state schools?

My understanding is that its schools that take rugby seriously, which obviously has a very very strong private bias. State schools with a proper rugby programme like RGS High Wycombe would be included unless I’ve missed something

Thanks

[Torquemada 1420]

Rugby Union has created refereeing monsters.

Worryingly I am in agreement. Maybe it's the inevitable when you start with unnecessarily complicated laws which also award point scoring penalties for ridiculous, minor infringements and then decide the way to improve things is do more of the same, more often by continuously changing.

I would imagine rugby has had more law changes in 1 year than football has in a century. And WR wonders why it's not catching on

[JM2K6]

The red card ruined the match. The referee ruined the match.

Exeter ruined it by capitulating, we've all seen games with red cards, earlier ones even, where the team on the receiving end make a far better fist of things than that and sometimes even go on to win.

Red cards tend to only make that much of a difference when the receiving team is significantly inferior to the other or when they react poorly.

This seems to be something you and jmk are adamant about. I haven’t seen stats for it but it instinctively feels utter bollocks. Reds ruin games

Because we keep getting example after example of the card not ruining games.

Here's a stat though, prior to today

[JM2K6]

Also it's worth remembering this was a second yellow, so not entirely relevant to the normal moaning about red cards.

[Kawazaki]

I want to see a game with 15 v 15.

15 v 14 is a match ruined. It compromises the team a player down massively and fatigues the rest of the remaining players who often get further sin-bin sanctions placing further strain on fitness.

It's bullshit and it's not working.

[JM2K6]

You want yellow cards to go away too? And we're just going to ignore all the games where a red didn't significantly alter things?