NPR

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:40 pm

salanya wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:32 pm JM: there wasn't a 'which penalty they'd accept', they either could take the 2 penalty places, or have it referred to the stewards. Which would probably result in the same penalty.

Or in the 5 seconds penalty he has now.

I agree it's all an absolute mess, partly caused by this mad circuit, and both teams are playing games as well and are just as culpable to the mess.

How often have you seen that sort of bargaining? Red Bull said they'd accept it if lewis stayed in second - why on earth are they being bargained with like that?

I don't think Mercedes have done a lot wrong here.

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:12 pm Did I miss it or did Verstappen just... Not pit for the five second penalty?

Kawazaki wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:15 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:12 pm Did I miss it or did Verstappen just... Not pit for the five second penalty?

The 5 seconds are added to his elapsed time.

Big D wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:47 pm Max has been summoned to the stewards.

Sandstorm wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:03 pm

Big D wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:47 pm Max has been summoned to the stewards.

Another sponsorship deal?

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:44 pm Er, it was a genuine question. For some reason I thought it was a drive through penalty.

Lobby wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:40 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:44 pm Er, it was a genuine question. For some reason I thought it was a drive through penalty.

There was some debate about him pitting to get new tyres and go for the fastest lap, but if he had pitted, he would have to have served the five second penalty as well, and this would have put him behind Ocon and Bottas. So the penalty effectively stopped him gaming the system to maintain a lead in the championship.

fishfoodie wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:54 pm The stewards really, really shouldn't be putting their fingers on the scales at this point in the season !

We're going into the last race; & the two title contenders are on the same points. If they do anything to change that equilibrium; they will rightly be dragged over the coals for this, & a dozen previous decisions, that brought us to this point.

Lets sort this season out on the track; & not the smoke filled back room.

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:17 pm Ah. A fan of the "you can't give a penalty in the last minute of the game" ethos.

Big D wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:22 pm One thing they should do from next season, is that if someone has to give a place back they have no DRS for the next lap. Half the fucking around is because they are trying to give the place back and pick up DRS.

fishfoodie wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:41 pm

Big D wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:22 pm One thing they should do from next season, is that if someone has to give a place back they have no DRS for the next lap. Half the fucking around is because they are trying to give the place back and pick up DRS.

a lot of it comes back to the elimination of the gravel traps; & the way the edge of the tracks, is a nebulous thing now.

If you make going over the white line, an experience that will wind you up in the pits for a new nose; you don't have to worry about drivers giving back places.

Big D wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:46 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:41 pm

Big D wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:22 pm One thing they should do from next season, is that if someone has to give a place back they have no DRS for the next lap. Half the fucking around is because they are trying to give the place back and pick up DRS.

a lot of it comes back to the elimination of the gravel traps; & the way the edge of the tracks, is a nebulous thing now.

If you make going over the white line, an experience that will wind you up in the pits for a new nose; you don't have to worry about drivers giving back places.

True but they probably aren't bringing gravel traps back unfortunately.

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:48 am It look 1hr 17 mins to do the first 17 laps.

Can't help think RB missed a trick with the first corner restart, they could very easily have argued that Max say Bottas locking up behind him and had to overshoot the corner to avoid being collected from behind. Had Max been only slightly earlier on the brakes, Bottas would have hit him. Arguing he had to take avoiding action and leave the track to avoid an accident might have helped them a little.

As for Max being the only one at fault for the let him past, "brake test" is a bit harsh, they were both playing games trying to not get to the DRS line first. Merc argument that Lewis' didn't know why Max was slowing down is bollocks. He knew exactly what he was doing. He clearly slowed down and stayed directly behind Max, they were both in 3rd gear (from 8th) when the contact happened.

Has there been any further news/clarification for RB complaints about Bottas going slow under the SC and Lewis not being within 10 car lengths for the restart?

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:48 am It look 1hr 17 mins to do the first 17 laps.

Can't help think RB missed a trick with the first corner restart, they could very easily have argued that Max saw Bottas locking up behind him and had to overshoot the corner to avoid being collected from behind. Had Max been only slightly earlier on the brakes, Bottas would have hit him. Arguing he had to take avoiding action and leave the track to avoid an accident might have helped them a little.

As for Max being the only one at fault for the let him past, "brake test" is a bit harsh, they were both playing games trying to not get to the DRS line first. Merc argument that Lewis' didn't know why Max was slowing down is bollocks. He knew exactly what he was doing. He clearly slowed down and stayed directly behind Max, they were both in 3rd gear (from 8th) when the contact happened.

Has there been any further news/clarification for RB complaints about Bottas going slow under the SC and Lewis not being within 10 car lengths for the restart?

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:48 am

Has there been any further news/clarification for RB complaints about Bottas going slow under the SC and Lewis not being within 10 car lengths for the restart?

Slick wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:50 am Glad I stayed up to watch the C4 program last night, terrific stuff.

I must say that before this season I was fairly ambivalent towards Hamilton but have become a big fan. He comes over as a moany fucker in the car but it's difficult to make judgements about that when none of us know the pressure these guys are under. But his driving, and attitude away from the car, are exceptional, a phenomenal sportsman.

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:10 am Hamilton is so much smarter when it comes to race craft when wheel to wheel, he knows exactly where the line is and very rarely crosses it.

These recent events from Max @ Brazil and again yesterday, Max is losing out on those decisions because, although he's had his nose in front, in doing so, he's failed to stay on track. Yesterday and at Brazil had he had 1/2 a tyre within the track limits he'd have not been penalised. It's fine margins, but it's the difference between legitimately having track position and not. Max should've learnt from Brazil that that was the case. There are more than a few examples of Lewis doing this to Rosberg (and others), but each time Lewis stayed on track to force the other driver wide.

assfly wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:53 am Any of our bored experts care to enlighten me as to why Hamilton has been so much better than Verstappen in the second half of the season? I understand that there have been issues regarding changing of engines, but feels like it's more than that.

Lobby wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:10 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:10 am Hamilton is so much smarter when it comes to race craft when wheel to wheel, he knows exactly where the line is and very rarely crosses it.

These recent events from Max @ Brazil and again yesterday, Max is losing out on those decisions because, although he's had his nose in front, in doing so, he's failed to stay on track. Yesterday and at Brazil had he had 1/2 a tyre within the track limits he'd have not been penalised. It's fine margins, but it's the difference between legitimately having track position and not. Max should've learnt from Brazil that that was the case. There are more than a few examples of Lewis doing this to Rosberg (and others), but each time Lewis stayed on track to force the other driver wide.

Lewis also knows how far he can push it, and when to back off. Max's approach is basically never to give way under any circumstances, and to always expect the other driver to back off and give way.

Thor Sedan wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:01 am It is interesting that Max was seemingly the new 'good guy' on the block to challenge Hamilton's 'bad guy' character when this rivalry first kicked off.

But public opinion seems to have switched. Max is now the Prost to Hamilton's Senna.

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:56 pm

Thor Sedan wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:01 am It is interesting that Max was seemingly the new 'good guy' on the block to challenge Hamilton's 'bad guy' character when this rivalry first kicked off.

But public opinion seems to have switched. Max is now the Prost to Hamilton's Senna.

I see this the other way round.

Senna & Schumacher were the masters of "let me through or we crash" & "run my opponent off the road" driving . Prost did it to Senna once but mostly was very pragmatic, particularly when they were in the same team.

I really thought we'd got rid of that sort of idiotic driving but Max has brought it back. The issue is that F1 is desperate for a competitive championship & somebody other than Mercedes to win and so are working hard to overlook Max driving like a twat.

sturginho wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:45 pm

Lobby wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:10 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:10 am Hamilton is so much smarter when it comes to race craft when wheel to wheel, he knows exactly where the line is and very rarely crosses it.

These recent events from Max @ Brazil and again yesterday, Max is losing out on those decisions because, although he's had his nose in front, in doing so, he's failed to stay on track. Yesterday and at Brazil had he had 1/2 a tyre within the track limits he'd have not been penalised. It's fine margins, but it's the difference between legitimately having track position and not. Max should've learnt from Brazil that that was the case. There are more than a few examples of Lewis doing this to Rosberg (and others), but each time Lewis stayed on track to force the other driver wide.

Lewis also knows how far he can push it, and when to back off. Max's approach is basically never to give way under any circumstances, and to always expect the other driver to back off and give way.

I also think that the pressure is getting to him. He may never get a better chance to win world championship

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:54 pm

sturginho wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:45 pm

Lobby wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:10 pm

Lewis also knows how far he can push it, and when to back off. Max's approach is basically never to give way under any circumstances, and to always expect the other driver to back off and give way.

I also think that the pressure is getting to him. He may never get a better chance to win world championship

Unless he kills someone (or himself) I can't see how Max won't dominate as soon as Lewis retires. At some point he will be forced to wind his neck in, even if it's just because there'll be no real opposition to him, and the sport will be all the better for it.

Big D wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:11 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:54 pm

sturginho wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:45 pm

I also think that the pressure is getting to him. He may never get a better chance to win world championship

Unless he kills someone (or himself) I can't see how Max won't dominate as soon as Lewis retires. At some point he will be forced to wind his neck in, even if it's just because there'll be no real opposition to him, and the sport will be all the better for it.

It will really depend on the cars. I'd expect Russell to be a lot closer to both than Bottas. With the right car he could provide a challenge. Leclerc and Norris could be racy in a competitive car too. Although I don't think Norris is as quick as the others.