2022/23 Champions/Challenge Cup

[Torquemada 1420]

Meh, I like the Saffers being involved. They add a bit of jeopardy to the tournament, which otherwise would be a boring procession for Leinster/LaR/Sarries.

The tournament was fucked years ago when they first started pissing about with the format, then went completely to shit once they decided to keep the lockdown measures in place. The inclusion of the Saffers at least adds abit more quality than seeing shit URC/Top14/GP teams stinking up the place.

This is a weak defence! Surely the answer is to revert to what made it great?

[JM2K6]

Again I urge you to understand that being critical of how the tournament format devalues matches and causes issues for fans is not simply solved with "don't watch your team"

[OomStruisbaai]

Meh, I like the Saffers being involved. They add a bit of jeopardy to the tournament, which otherwise would be a boring procession for Leinster/LaR/Sarries.

The tournament was fucked years ago when they first started pissing about with the format, then went completely to shit once they decided to keep the lockdown measures in place. The inclusion of the Saffers at least adds abit more quality than seeing shit URC/Top14/GP teams stinking up the place.

This is a weak defence! Surely the answer is to revert to what made it great?

English is my 4th language but suppose he mean the format was great.

[Chilli]

Again I urge you to understand that being critical of how the tournament format devalues matches and causes issues for fans is not simply solved with "don't watch your team"

I understand that, but you are just going on and on about it.
Not much that you or I post on this site is going to change that.
Now let's put it behind us and enjoy some fantastic rugby.



I can't wait for South Africa to join the 6N. Just think of how good that will be

[Dinsdale Piranha]

If any Quins fans want to go watch their team in Cape Town then I suggest they plan in advance and make it a 10 day family trip. Going for a 3 day weekend at short notice is too expensive for anyone.

Actually a short notice weekend in Paris or Dublin is also pretty pricey.

Yes but it is at least feasible. I went to the finals in Lyon a few years back at short notice once Quins had qualified for the junior final and discovered I was staying in a hotel with a Michelin starred restaurant. That put the price up rather dramatically

I wouldn't entirely rule out going to a game in Cape Town but the problem is that as a single guy, I'm much better suited to a lively weekend with a few friends - which I have done occasionally in the past for Euro games - than a full on holiday. For SA games the time as much as the cost make that difficult.

[Jim Lahey]

Meh, I like the Saffers being involved. They add a bit of jeopardy to the tournament, which otherwise would be a boring procession for Leinster/LaR/Sarries.

The tournament was fucked years ago when they first started pissing about with the format, then went completely to shit once they decided to keep the lockdown measures in place. The inclusion of the Saffers at least adds abit more quality than seeing shit URC/Top14/GP teams stinking up the place.

This is a weak defence! Surely the answer is to revert to what made it great?

I would agree.

But based on the evidence of the last 8 or 9 years, European Rugby is run by fuckheads,so it is unlikely that the obvious solution will be the one taken.

Therefore putting some competitive teams in at the expense of yhe likes of Bath/Dragons/Zebre is making the best of a bad situation.

[Brazil]

If any Quins fans want to go watch their team in Cape Town then I suggest they plan in advance and make it a 10 day family trip. Going for a 3 day weekend at short notice is too expensive for anyone.

Actually a short notice weekend in Paris or Dublin is also pretty pricey.

Yes but it is at least feasible. I went to the finals in Lyon a few years back at short notice once Quins had qualified for the junior final and discovered I was staying in a hotel with a Michelin starred restaurant. That put the price up rather dramatically

I wouldn't entirely rule out going to a game in Cape Town but the problem is that as a single guy, I'm much better suited to a lively weekend with a few friends - which I have done occasionally in the past for Euro games - than a full on holiday. For SA games the time as much as the cost make that difficult.

A common pitfall in Lyon.

I should be going to the quarter final there later this year and am fully preparing to recreate the more excessive bits of La Grande Bouffe.

[JM2K6]

Again I urge you to understand that being critical of how the tournament format devalues matches and causes issues for fans is not simply solved with "don't watch your team"

I understand that, but you are just going on and on about it.
Not much that you or I post on this site is going to change that.
Now let's put it behind us and enjoy some fantastic rugby.



I can't wait for South Africa to join the 6N. Just think of how good that will be

"Why is this person I decided to engage with engaging with me" is a weird question to ask I guess.

[Slick]

Yeah but what does ROG know about what makes European rugby a success? Has he not spoken to some gutteral bellend from a shanty town at the bottom of the world?

[Dinsdale Piranha]

If any Quins fans want to go watch their team in Cape Town then I suggest they plan in advance and make it a 10 day family trip. Going for a 3 day weekend at short notice is too expensive for anyone.

Actually a short notice weekend in Paris or Dublin is also pretty pricey.

Yes but it is at least feasible. I went to the finals in Lyon a few years back at short notice once Quins had qualified for the junior final and discovered I was staying in a hotel with a Michelin starred restaurant. That put the price up rather dramatically

I wouldn't entirely rule out going to a game in Cape Town but the problem is that as a single guy, I'm much better suited to a lively weekend with a few friends - which I have done occasionally in the past for Euro games - than a full on holiday. For SA games the time as much as the cost make that difficult.

A common pitfall in Lyon.

I should be going to the quarter final there later this year and am fully preparing to recreate the more excessive bits of La Grande Bouffe.

I can recommend Les Loges for good food. Also Brasserie Georges which isn't fine dining in the same way but is quite an experience.

[Torquemada 1420]

Yes but it is at least feasible. I went to the finals in Lyon a few years back at short notice once Quins had qualified for the junior final and discovered I was staying in a hotel with a Michelin starred restaurant. That put the price up rather dramatically

It's Lyon. The self proclaimed gastro capital of France. Even if the local Costa isn't a Michelin Star, it's going to charge those prices to talk up the experience.

[PornDog]

Meh, I like the Saffers being involved. They add a bit of jeopardy to the tournament, which otherwise would be a boring procession for Leinster/LaR/Sarries.

The tournament was fucked years ago when they first started pissing about with the format, then went completely to shit once they decided to keep the lockdown measures in place. The inclusion of the Saffers at least adds abit more quality than seeing shit URC/Top14/GP teams stinking up the place.

This is a weak defence! Surely the answer is to revert to what made it great?

I would agree.

But based on the evidence of the last 8 or 9 years, European Rugby is run by fuckheads,so it is unlikely that the obvious solution will be the one taken.

Therefore putting some competitive teams in at the expense of yhe likes of Bath/Dragons/Zebre is making the best of a bad situation.

Yep, pretty much this for me as well.

Current comp is a steaming pile of shit, but (amazingly) having the Saffas in it actually makes it slightly less shite than it has been.

Would not object to kicking them out again mind you if we can get back to a proper competition.

[_Os_]

Ah yes the 24 hours spent on flights for an away game, at a casual 1.5k - 2 grand in Economy. Unless you want to spend actual days in the air.

This tournament has been mortally wounded by the introduction of the Saffer sides that's led to an absolutely batshit insane format and this sort of ridiculous anti-fan fixture that excludes only the richest fans or those few who live in the local area to begin with. I'm sure you wouldn't begin to argue that the fans aren't a huge part of European rugby.

Garbage tournament, garbage decisions. And it'd be the same regardless of which European side was having to travel to Cape Town. I guess unlike the French, we might actually send a first XV, more's the pity.

I think Joe was maybe referring to the players, that's how I read it, not away fans (which aren't really a thing in SA).

I can't see anyone/many going to SA for a knockout game as I've posted previously. But your numbers aren't accurate, I found return tickets on SkyScanner from London to CT covering Friday 31st March/Saturday 1st April/Sunday 2nd April for under £800, and on at least one of the flights it's 13-ish hours. Sure it means taking a few days off work flying out midweek, but it's half the numbers you're posting. You can get return tickets from the UK to SA under £500 (but not covering these dates from what I can see), £2k is way out.

The equation changes a bit with non-knockout fixtures if someone basically wants to go on holiday and see their team too, as it can be planned more in advance. If anyone is spending the money, they're far better off spending it on two weeks rather than a weekend.

I also checked SkyScanner before posting those figures, Os. Unless you're willing to accept insane amounts of time travelling - i.e. closer to 24 hours per flight rather than for the whole trip with loads of stops, the absolute minimum figure for direct flights is £2,215. Because we don't know what day it's going to be, this is flying out Thursday and flying back Monday fwiw.

If you're willing to push that to 16hrs out and 14:30 back - over 30 hours of flying and stop overs - you can get it down to £1217. Big woop.

This is a bit academic, because we both agree almost no one is going to go for a weekend to SA from Europe (it would be a stupid thing to do). But I'm really not sure how you're using SkyScanner to get those numbers. Why would anyone subject themselves to something like a London > Amsterdam > Dubai > Addis > Joburg > CT route over 30+ hours (or some variation of that) when if they were going to do this, they could just travel late Tuesday or Wednesday instead, have an easier journey and pay less?

Leave on Tuesday March 28th (KLM 14 hour flight, 1 stop), return on Monday 3rd April (Emirates 19 hour, 1 stop). £790.
Leave on Tuesday March 28th 8.25pm UK time (KLM 24 hour flight, 1 stop), return on Monday 3rd April (Emirates 25 hour, 1 stop). £798.
Leave Tuesday March 28th 9pm UK time (Air Ethiopia, 16 hour flight 1 stop), return on Monday 3rd April (Air Ethiopia 27 hour, 1 stop). £755.
Leave on Wednesday March 29th 6.;25pm UK time (Kenya Airways 26 hour flight, 1 stop), return Monday 3rd April (Kenya Airways, 27 hour flight, 2 stops). £720.

I do think it becomes more viable in league fixtures (ie in the URC) if someone wants to go on holiday in SA and watch their team too, it is possible to get return tickets to SA under £500 if the stay is longer. The US recently overtook the UK as SA's biggest source of foreign tourists (cannot remember if that was by value or numbers), but it's not like there are only £1.5k to £2k return tickets from the UK to SA as you posted, if that was the case the tourism numbers from the UK to SA wouldn't be what they are.

[Torquemada 1420]

I would agree.

But based on the evidence of the last 8 or 9 years, European Rugby is run by fuckheads,so it is unlikely that the obvious solution will be the one taken.

Therefore putting some competitive teams in at the expense of yhe likes of Bath/Dragons/Zebre is making the best of a bad situation.

Based on the state of the Premiership, development of the smaller nations, the crisis in regards head injuries, the corruption in France............ well, everything I guess.

[JM2K6]

I think Joe was maybe referring to the players, that's how I read it, not away fans (which aren't really a thing in SA).

I can't see anyone/many going to SA for a knockout game as I've posted previously. But your numbers aren't accurate, I found return tickets on SkyScanner from London to CT covering Friday 31st March/Saturday 1st April/Sunday 2nd April for under £800, and on at least one of the flights it's 13-ish hours. Sure it means taking a few days off work flying out midweek, but it's half the numbers you're posting. You can get return tickets from the UK to SA under £500 (but not covering these dates from what I can see), £2k is way out.

The equation changes a bit with non-knockout fixtures if someone basically wants to go on holiday and see their team too, as it can be planned more in advance. If anyone is spending the money, they're far better off spending it on two weeks rather than a weekend.

I also checked SkyScanner before posting those figures, Os. Unless you're willing to accept insane amounts of time travelling - i.e. closer to 24 hours per flight rather than for the whole trip with loads of stops, the absolute minimum figure for direct flights is £2,215. Because we don't know what day it's going to be, this is flying out Thursday and flying back Monday fwiw.

If you're willing to push that to 16hrs out and 14:30 back - over 30 hours of flying and stop overs - you can get it down to £1217. Big woop.

This is a bit academic, because we both agree almost no one is going to go for a weekend to SA from Europe (it would be a stupid thing to do). But I'm really not sure how you're using SkyScanner to get those numbers. Why would anyone subject themselves to something like a London > Amsterdam > Dubai > Addis > Joburg > CT route over 30+ hours (or some variation of that) when if they were going to do this, they could just travel late Tuesday or Wednesday instead, have an easier journey and pay less?

Leave on Tuesday March 28th (KLM 14 hour flight, 1 stop), return on Monday 3rd April (Emirates 19 hour, 1 stop). £790.
Leave on Tuesday March 28th 8.25pm UK time (KLM 24 hour flight, 1 stop), return on Monday 3rd April (Emirates 25 hour, 1 stop). £798.
Leave Tuesday March 28th 9pm UK time (Air Ethiopia, 16 hour flight 1 stop), return on Monday 3rd April (Air Ethiopia 27 hour, 1 stop). £755.
Leave on Wednesday March 29th 6.;25pm UK time (Kenya Airways 26 hour flight, 1 stop), return Monday 3rd April (Kenya Airways, 27 hour flight, 2 stops). £720.

I do think it becomes more viable in league fixtures (ie in the URC) if someone wants to go on holiday in SA and watch their team too, it is possible to get return tickets to SA under £500 if the stay is longer. The US recently overtook the UK as SA's biggest source of foreign tourists (cannot remember if that was by value or numbers), but it's not like there are only £1.5k to £2k return tickets from the UK to SA as you posted, if that was the case the tourism numbers from the UK to SA wouldn't be what they are.

To be clear OS, the over 30 hours was "in total". Not per flight. And I gave you the dates I was looking at as examples, so perhaps it is cheaper on those days. I do not pretend to be a travel agent - I literally just checked Skyscanner and laughed.

The difference between spending 12 hours on a plane to get somewhere and spending 24 hours on a plane to get somewhere is the difference between being willing to go for a week and only being willing to go if it's a 3+ week trip.

[_Os_]

The difference between spending 12 hours on a plane to get somewhere and spending 24 hours on a plane to get somewhere is the difference between being willing to go for a week and only being willing to go if it's a 3+ week trip.

We don't disagree on this, just about no one is going to SA for a weekend (as I've stated in each post, only to have people replying "no one is going to SA for a weekend"). I just disagree with your estimates of the costs, because they're way out. £2k is more in the ballpark of a full works holiday (Kruger Park, Garden Route, wine farms ... whatever) over 2 or 3 weeks. Not a simple return ticket to CT, a place many foreign tourists go to.

[Sandstorm]

The difference between spending 12 hours on a plane to get somewhere and spending 24 hours on a plane to get somewhere is the difference between being willing to go for a week and only being willing to go if it's a 3+ week trip.

We don't disagree on this, just about no one is going to SA for a weekend (as I've stated in each post, only to have people replying "no one is going to SA for a weekend"). I just disagree with your estimates of the costs, because they're way out. £2k is more in the ballpark of a full works holiday (Kruger Park, Garden Route, wine farms ... whatever) over 2 or 3 weeks. Not a simple return ticket to CT, a place many foreign tourists go to.

The airlines have noticed there is Rugby in SA on 31 March and have jacked up the flight prices from UK.
Also it's autumn in SA and the number of flights has halved by then.

[JM2K6]

The difference between spending 12 hours on a plane to get somewhere and spending 24 hours on a plane to get somewhere is the difference between being willing to go for a week and only being willing to go if it's a 3+ week trip.

We don't disagree on this, just about no one is going to SA for a weekend (as I've stated in each post, only to have people replying "no one is going to SA for a weekend"). I just disagree with your estimates of the costs, because they're way out. £2k is more in the ballpark of a full works holiday (Kruger Park, Garden Route, wine farms ... whatever) over 2 or 3 weeks. Not a simple return ticket to CT, a place many foreign tourists go to.

2k is less than the cost of the cheapest direct flights for the day before and the day after the range of dates for the match. I don't think that's "way out".

Yes, if you're willing to slum it and take twice as long in the air, you can get it cheaper. Probably super cheap if you take a boat.

[sockwithaticket]

Potentially significant issue coming up. EPCR's rules say that a player must be contracted to a club for 3 months to play. Bristol just had 5 points deducted over this in the Challenge Cup.

Tom Cruse was signed by Edinburgh on a short term deal in November that's apparently ended as he's just joined up with Saints 'til the end of the season. Now there's no specific date on the reports I've seen, so maybe he'll stay on at Edinbrugh long enough for this not to matter, but if someone has fucked up all the admin around it then the round of 16 fixtures could be subject to some change.

[_Os_]

The difference between spending 12 hours on a plane to get somewhere and spending 24 hours on a plane to get somewhere is the difference between being willing to go for a week and only being willing to go if it's a 3+ week trip.

We don't disagree on this, just about no one is going to SA for a weekend (as I've stated in each post, only to have people replying "no one is going to SA for a weekend"). I just disagree with your estimates of the costs, because they're way out. £2k is more in the ballpark of a full works holiday (Kruger Park, Garden Route, wine farms ... whatever) over 2 or 3 weeks. Not a simple return ticket to CT, a place many foreign tourists go to.

2k is less than the cost of the cheapest direct flights for the day before and the day after the range of dates for the match. I don't think that's "way out".

Yes, if you're willing to slum it and take twice as long in the air, you can get it cheaper. Probably super cheap if you take a boat.

I hope you don't test software this way. "Sir would you like the circa £500 to £750 return ticket where you spend around 10 hours more travelling with a stop, or the faster flight with no stop that costs £2k?", the sensible answer is not "everyone goes for the direct flight of £2k, the most expensive ticket, and if they're mad enough to undertake this journey for a single weekend robotically refuses to go one day earlier to reduce the cost". Having a stop sometimes means you can walk around for a bit, it can make it easier.

If I'm taking the boat you're taking a privately hired jet to prove that £1.5k to £2k is an entirely normal and reasonable amount to pay aren't you? I'm sure some people do take the private jet, but ...

[weegie01]

This tournament has been mortally wounded by the introduction of the Saffer sides that's led to an absolutely batshit insane format and this sort of ridiculous anti-fan fixture that excludes only the richest fans or those few who live in the local area to begin with. I'm sure you wouldn't begin to argue that the fans aren't a huge part of European rugby.

Garbage tournament, garbage decisions. And it'd be the same regardless of which European side was having to travel to Cape Town. I guess unlike the French, we might actually send a first XV, more's the pity.

Travel issues, fair enough. But what have the Saffa sides got to do with the format? It would be 8 from the URC either way, just now some are SA sides. That clearly introduces travel issues but I do not believe it has changed the format of the tournament. As far as I can see the format is the same as it was last year with no SA sides, unless I am missing something.

[JM2K6]

We don't disagree on this, just about no one is going to SA for a weekend (as I've stated in each post, only to have people replying "no one is going to SA for a weekend"). I just disagree with your estimates of the costs, because they're way out. £2k is more in the ballpark of a full works holiday (Kruger Park, Garden Route, wine farms ... whatever) over 2 or 3 weeks. Not a simple return ticket to CT, a place many foreign tourists go to.

2k is less than the cost of the cheapest direct flights for the day before and the day after the range of dates for the match. I don't think that's "way out".

Yes, if you're willing to slum it and take twice as long in the air, you can get it cheaper. Probably super cheap if you take a boat.

I hope you don't test software this way. "Sir would you like the circa £500 to £750 return ticket where you spend around 10 hours more travelling with a stop, or the faster flight with no stop that costs £2k?", the sensible answer is not "everyone goes for the direct flight over £2k, the most expensive ticket, and if they're mad enough to undertake this journey for a single weekend robotically refuses to go one day earlier to reduce the cost". Having a stop sometimes means you can walk around for a bit, it can make it easier.

If I'm taking the boat you're taking a privately hired jet to prove that £1.5k to £2k is an entirely normal and reasonable amount to pay aren't you? I'm sure some people do take the private jet, but ...

What are you even trying to argue here, Os? That looking at the cost of an economy class direct flight isn't "fair"? Why not? A 12 hour flight is already a big ask. A 24 hour one is a huge commitment and essentially requires you to take a lot of time off. It's only a couple of months away and we still don't know what day the actual match will be - the lack of the ability to do this on a whim for a reasonable cost is part of the point!

Like I said, you can get cheaper flights using the dates I provided - because this is a comparison to the trips you'd take in Europe - the cheapest on Skyscanner is £782 return with 3 stops on the flight out and 2 stops on the flight back, an utterly miserable journey.

If the answer is "actually, the dates you chose are just super expensive for whatever reason, if you look back a few days and forward a few days it's a bit cheaper" then that's fine, I really don't care that much to do a forensic investigation of ticket costs to that extent. You know what's even cheaper? Not going.

(A more Os-reasonable one avoiding those oddly expensive days. Fly out Tuesday 28th March. Fly back Thursday 6th April. Cheapest direct flights, £1222. Still absurd. Cheapest 1-stop flights come to £800, for a crazy route. £700 gets you the cheapest possible flights, with 21hrs and 18hrs15 as your flight times. lol.)

[JM2K6]

This tournament has been mortally wounded by the introduction of the Saffer sides that's led to an absolutely batshit insane format and this sort of ridiculous anti-fan fixture that excludes only the richest fans or those few who live in the local area to begin with. I'm sure you wouldn't begin to argue that the fans aren't a huge part of European rugby.

Garbage tournament, garbage decisions. And it'd be the same regardless of which European side was having to travel to Cape Town. I guess unlike the French, we might actually send a first XV, more's the pity.

Travel issues, fair enough. But what have the Saffa sides got to do with the format? It would be 8 from the URC either way, just now some are SA sides. That clearly introduces travel issues but I do not believe it has changed the format of the tournament. As far as I can see the format is the same as it was last year with no SA sides, unless I am missing something.

The original intent was for last season's stupid format to just be a COVID thing, where everything was a desparate attempt to make some money from live rugby (hence the two-legged knockout stages, etc). There's no such excuse this season and the Saffer sides have been used to keep the idiotic pool format that no-one wanted, only now there's home advantage for the round of 16 as it's not a two-legged one, so you get teams having to travel halfway across the world for a winner-takes-all knockout game.

In other words, it was shit last year too, but there was a good excuse and it was meant to be temporary.

[_Os_]

What are you even trying to argue here, Os?

Cost, I've never paid £2k for a return to SA. A stop in Dubai makes it easier and cheaper, it's 9 hours stretch your legs then 9 hours (rather than 13 or so hours straight) ... and I'm a unit.

It's not going to kill anyone's finances (on an average salary) going to SA if they really want to and save a little, pointless going for a weekend though won't get full value.

[JM2K6]

What are you even trying to argue here, Os?

Cost, I've never paid £2k for a return to SA. A stop in Dubai makes it easier and cheaper, it's 9 hours stretch your legs then 9 hours (rather than 13 or so hours straight) ... and I'm a unit.

It's not going to kill anyone's finances (on an average salary) going to SA if they really want to and save a little, pointless going for a weekend though won't get full value.

Okay. I accept that you wouldn't pay that. But someone trying to get to SA on a flight short enough to make it so they don't have to take a lot of holiday at relatively short notice is gong to be paying a lot more than the £500 you seem to think is the level.

There are people who follow sports teams who are actually willing to travel long distance for a long time to basically spend a weekend somewhere! But they don't do it if it also costs them a shit ton of money.

[Chilli]

Oh my God but all some of them do is complain.

[JM2K6]

If you don't like the

Spoiler

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[OomStruisbaai]

Weekend Heineken Champions Cup results

Leicester Tigers 26 Ospreys 27
Lyon 31 Vodacom Bulls 7
Northampton Saints 13 LaRochelle 31
Bordeaux-Begles 17 Gloucester 26
Leinster 36 Racing 92 10
Exeter Chiefs 40 Castres 3
DHL Stormers 30 ASM Clermont Auvergne 16
Ulster 22 Sale Sharks 11
Montpellier 21 London Irish 21
Toulouse 20 Munster 16
Edinburgh 20 Saracens 14

Round of 16 fixtures (to be played 31 March/1 and 2 April, time TBC)

Saracens v Ospreys
Cell C Sharks v Munster
DHL Stormers v Harlequins
Toulouse v Vodacom Bulls
LaRochelle v Gloucester
Leicester Tigers v Edinburgh
Exeter Chiefs v Montpellier
Leinster v Ulster

SA Challenge Cup results

Dragons 25 Emirates Lions 30
Toyota Cheetahs 9 Pau 6

Challenge Cup round of 16

Toulon v Toyota Cheetahs
Scarlets v Brive
Benetton v Connacht
Glasgow v Dragons
Stade Francais v Lyon
Emirates Lions v Racing 92
Bristol Bears v ASM Clermont Auvergne
Cardiff v Sale Sharks

[weegie01]

The original intent was for last season's stupid format to just be a COVID thing, where everything was a desparate attempt to make some money from live rugby (hence the two-legged knockout stages, etc). There's no such excuse this season and the Saffer sides have been used to keep the idiotic pool format that no-one wanted, only now there's home advantage for the round of 16 as it's not a two-legged one, so you get teams having to travel halfway across the world for a winner-takes-all knockout game.

In other words, it was shit last year too, but there was a good excuse and it was meant to be temporary.

I understand that is what you think, I do not understand why. I don't recall any discussion around the format having to be retained because of the SA teams, nor can I find anything with Google that suggests this.

I do not see any reason why the SA teams should have made any difference to the previous two seasons this format has been used (apart obviously form the travel). The loss of a weekend from 9 to 8 seems more significant to me as that restricts the options to change the format.

[LoveOfTheGame]

This tournament has been mortally wounded by the introduction of the Saffer sides that's led to an absolutely batshit insane format and this sort of ridiculous anti-fan fixture that excludes only the richest fans or those few who live in the local area to begin with. I'm sure you wouldn't begin to argue that the fans aren't a huge part of European rugby.

Garbage tournament, garbage decisions. And it'd be the same regardless of which European side was having to travel to Cape Town. I guess unlike the French, we might actually send a first XV, more's the pity.

Travel issues, fair enough. But what have the Saffa sides got to do with the format? It would be 8 from the URC either way, just now some are SA sides. That clearly introduces travel issues but I do not believe it has changed the format of the tournament. As far as I can see the format is the same as it was last year with no SA sides, unless I am missing something.

The original intent was for last season's stupid format to just be a COVID thing, where everything was a desparate attempt to make some money from live rugby (hence the two-legged knockout stages, etc). There's no such excuse this season and the Saffer sides have been used to keep the idiotic pool format that no-one wanted, only now there's home advantage for the round of 16 as it's not a two-legged one, so you get teams having to travel halfway across the world for a winner-takes-all knockout game.

In other words, it was shit last year too, but there was a good excuse and it was meant to be temporary.

Right, a few points from me. Firstly, you are coming across as a right bitter twat and want to put the blame for the demise of the HC at the feet of the saffas. I watched a very interesting podcast (The Good, The Bad, and the Rugby) where they discussed this very subject matter. As a saffa, it was very interesting to listen to them going on about how it went pear shaped in 2013/14 when the structure changed. Huge growth in revenue was promised and planned, yet they achieved only (by their accounts anyway) 1/2 of those projections. The title sponsor is contributing only around a 1/4 of what they were willing to pay back in the glory days of the HC. SA had nothing to do with any of these decisions. That's all on you, good job.

Yet here you are harping on about the SA this and the SA that. Travel blah blah blah. You mention below if you don't want to discuss something then don't read it. Well, if you don't want to travel to SA to see your team play, or can't afford it , then watch it on the bloody telly. The only thing the SA sides have done is added quality to the competition. We're also still trying to figure out how we will be attacking this beast. But as it stands all our teams have qualified. By playing rugby as best they can in new conditions and in new environments/stadia. For the most part it's been very good and exciting to play teams we never thought of playing. The clubs and fans have all been great. The group stage format is daft, but the business end of the HC is coming up and there will be some cracking games. Surely you are looking forward to that?

I understand completely the point of history and tradition. But as with everything in time, it all started somewhere. We can see already that the URC is a big success, it will grow from strength to strength. There is history and rivalries already being made as we speak. I personally miss the nostalgia of Soup rugby. I loved everything about it, Saturday morning games in NZ/Aus and big games in SA against some of the best franchise teams in the world. That ship has sailed and is gone. I cannot change that. So we have the URC, which at first I was pretty nervous about, but has now proven to be excellent. The cherry on the cake is the Champions Cup, if it does not work then hey at least we gave it a crack. But you can literally break off that finger you are pointing at us and go fuck yourself with it if you think we are to be blamed for the demise of the HC. That's all on you and your friends. Hopefully we can collectively make it a better comp. If not, no harm done.

[JM2K6]

Am phone posting - who expects to commute to an office in 2023 - so apologies in advance.

The "if you don't like the discussion don't read it" was me mocking the "if you don't like what the tournament has become don't watch it" point made earlier, which is a desperately stupid way to engage in criticism. Imagine my surprise over being told "if you don't like the travel don't go"! Also really fucking stupid!

First things first: I'm not pinning all the blame on SA sides. I've been pretty consistent on this; even in this recent argument I've said the tournament was going downhill. My problem is that what props up the tournament and makes it something more than just soulless Rugby Content(tm) is the history, the tradition, and the traveling fan engagement with matches. SA sides in it accelerate the decay by fucking a lot of that into a bin.

It has never been about the quality of the SA sides. Almost any Super Rugby team would be better than 50% of the competition. Actually giving a shit about matches requires more than just the quality of the sides. Super Rugby teams can be amazing but the messing around with the format lost a lot of the interest - but how can that be when so many teams were high quality? Turns out that the best sport isn't just exhibition matches.

I'm pleased that you as a fan of South African rugby have been excited by and are enjoying both the URC and the Champions Cup. It is not a surprise. You go from a moribund tournament, to having to play amongst yourselves, to a NH tournament, to the flagship European tournament where your teams are good enough to beat most other teams and are in with a shout of winning the thing. Also, your large expat community gets to go to games. That's great for South Africa! It makes total sense you guys are thrilled by a near perfect solution to your problem that isn't magically inventing your own domestic tournament that's worth the time or having other African teams suddenly become good enough.

But the calculations on the other side are much worse. The travel is stupid for teams and insane for fans. The quality of the teams is a double edged sword; the existing inequality is just enlarged. European rugby is about history and multi year stories and the context of the shared histories of the nations that provide the teams and what it means for the 6 nations etcetc. SA sides are largely devoid of all of that.

I fully expect SA to join the 6 Nations, to the same objections, and to the same confusion from SA fans who don't understand why their team doesn't belong, why it damages what makes the tournament special, and why "if you don't like x then don't y" is not a logical response.

Weegie: fair enough, you've done your research. I'll withdraw that complaint and just aim my ire at the cunts who thought keeping that format was the right idea.

[OomStruisbaai]

Look like Cape Town Stadium do draw a lot of NH supporters. Newlands had all the tradition and culture but even a traditional like me have to move on. It's all history now even if I have a wet pantie like a woman.

[Sards]

Oh my word. What a shit show

[LoveOfTheGame]

Am phone posting - who expects to commute to an office in 2023 - so apologies in advance.

The "if you don't like the discussion don't read it" was me mocking the "if you don't like what the tournament has become don't watch it" point made earlier, which is a desperately stupid way to engage in criticism. Imagine my surprise over being told "if you don't like the travel don't go"! Also really fucking stupid!

First things first: I'm not pinning all the blame on SA sides. I've been pretty consistent on this; even in this recent argument I've said the tournament was going downhill. My problem is that what props up the tournament and makes it something more than just soulless Rugby Content(tm) is the history, the tradition, and the traveling fan engagement with matches. SA sides in it accelerate the decay by fucking a lot of that into a bin.

It has never been about the quality of the SA sides. Almost any Super Rugby team would be better than 50% of the competition. Actually giving a shit about matches requires more than just the quality of the sides. Super Rugby teams can be amazing but the messing around with the format lost a lot of the interest - but how can that be when so many teams were high quality? Turns out that the best sport isn't just exhibition matches.

I'm pleased that you as a fan of South African rugby have been excited by and are enjoying both the URC and the Champions Cup. It is not a surprise. You go from a moribund tournament, to having to play amongst yourselves, to a NH tournament, to the flagship European tournament where your teams are good enough to beat most other teams and are in with a shout of winning the thing. Also, your large expat community gets to go to games. That's great for South Africa! It makes total sense you guys are thrilled by a near perfect solution to your problem that isn't magically inventing your own domestic tournament that's worth the time or having other African teams suddenly become good enough.

But the calculations on the other side are much worse. The travel is stupid for teams and insane for fans. The quality of the teams is a double edged sword; the existing inequality is just enlarged. European rugby is about history and multi year stories and the context of the shared histories of the nations that provide the teams and what it means for the 6 nations etcetc. SA sides are largely devoid of all of that.

I fully expect SA to join the 6 Nations, to the same objections, and to the same confusion from SA fans who don't understand why their team doesn't belong, why it damages what makes the tournament special, and why "if you don't like x then don't y" is not a logical response.

Weegie: fair enough, you've done your research. I'll withdraw that complaint and just aim my ire at the cunts who thought keeping that format was the right idea.

Look, the feeling I got from that podcast and to a lesser extent from you is that there is indeed a lot of nostalgia and love for the HC from European fans. You must try and understand that the failure of the competition is not our fault, the fact that the French don't want more pool games or that some don't send their best teams for the away games. Or that some of the English/Welsh are just a bit shit and are going through some rough times. None of these things are our fault. You messed up the golden goose. How you wish to package that up and deal with it is up to you. But we have been given an opportunity to compete in a new comp and that's what we are trying to do. We offer competitive teams, with some world class players, which should bring tangible value to the competition. If we don't, or you keep looking down your noses at us, then keep it. You seem to be doing great job of destroying it by yourselves. Last thing we want to hear is the likes of you blaming SA instead of seeing us as an opportunity because you are resistant to change.

As for joining the 6N, it would be an atrocity. Here I agree 110% with you. I hope for everything that is still good in this world that never ever happens.

[dpedin]

Am phone posting - who expects to commute to an office in 2023 - so apologies in advance.

The "if you don't like the discussion don't read it" was me mocking the "if you don't like what the tournament has become don't watch it" point made earlier, which is a desperately stupid way to engage in criticism. Imagine my surprise over being told "if you don't like the travel don't go"! Also really fucking stupid!

First things first: I'm not pinning all the blame on SA sides. I've been pretty consistent on this; even in this recent argument I've said the tournament was going downhill. My problem is that what props up the tournament and makes it something more than just soulless Rugby Content(tm) is the history, the tradition, and the traveling fan engagement with matches. SA sides in it accelerate the decay by fucking a lot of that into a bin.

It has never been about the quality of the SA sides. Almost any Super Rugby team would be better than 50% of the competition. Actually giving a shit about matches requires more than just the quality of the sides. Super Rugby teams can be amazing but the messing around with the format lost a lot of the interest - but how can that be when so many teams were high quality? Turns out that the best sport isn't just exhibition matches.

I'm pleased that you as a fan of South African rugby have been excited by and are enjoying both the URC and the Champions Cup. It is not a surprise. You go from a moribund tournament, to having to play amongst yourselves, to a NH tournament, to the flagship European tournament where your teams are good enough to beat most other teams and are in with a shout of winning the thing. Also, your large expat community gets to go to games. That's great for South Africa! It makes total sense you guys are thrilled by a near perfect solution to your problem that isn't magically inventing your own domestic tournament that's worth the time or having other African teams suddenly become good enough.

But the calculations on the other side are much worse. The travel is stupid for teams and insane for fans. The quality of the teams is a double edged sword; the existing inequality is just enlarged. European rugby is about history and multi year stories and the context of the shared histories of the nations that provide the teams and what it means for the 6 nations etcetc. SA sides are largely devoid of all of that.

I fully expect SA to join the 6 Nations, to the same objections, and to the same confusion from SA fans who don't understand why their team doesn't belong, why it damages what makes the tournament special, and why "if you don't like x then don't y" is not a logical response.

Weegie: fair enough, you've done your research. I'll withdraw that complaint and just aim my ire at the cunts who thought keeping that format was the right idea.

Look, the feeling I got from that podcast and to a lesser extent from you is that there is indeed a lot of nostalgia and love for the HC from European fans. You must try and understand that the failure of the competition is not our fault, the fact that the French don't want more pool games or that some don't send their best teams for the away games. Or that some of the English/Welsh are just a bit shit and are going through some rough times. None of these things are our fault. You messed up the golden goose. How you wish to package that up and deal with it is up to you. But we have been given an opportunity to compete in a new comp and that's what we are trying to do. We offer competitive teams, with some world class players, which should bring tangible value to the competition. If we don't, or you keep looking down your noses at us, then keep it. You seem to be doing great job of destroying it by yourselves. Last thing we want to hear is the likes of you blaming SA instead of seeing us as an opportunity because you are resistant to change.

As for joining the 6N, it would be an atrocity. Here I agree 110% with you. I hope for everything that is still good in this world that never ever happens.

As a Scot I have to agree with the the above from Love of the Game. The English rugby situation is clusterfuck driven by greed and poor governship. It has been happy to sell its soul for the chance of a quick buck and now we see the turkeys coming home to roost as clubs fail financially as the Flash Harry owners have stripped the assets and disappear. Ironically the English clubs need the SA teams more than they realise as they bring cash to the competition and ultimately keep some of the English teams afloat financially. I welcome the SA teams to both the URC and the Euro competitions, they bring something different and fresh to the competition and I have enjoyed watching them play live and on the tv. Of course there are issues around travel just as there are to a lesser extent with Italian teams but that is a price worth paying - by the way I hear that our URC teams have enjoyed the opportunity to go on the mini tours to SA as the modern game has meant that many haven't had the chance to tour like they did in the old days.

English rugby is going through a difficult period at the moment and many clubs are struggling to balance the books and are having to offload players as a result. This has been entirely of their own making along with a compliant or failing RFU. Scottish rugby and Irish rugby had these issues when pro rugby was first introduced. Welsh rugby is going through a similar struggle at the moment but seem to have found a more stable footing now. I suspect English rugby has a way to go yet before it has a financially sustainable model for the future but I am sure the additional funds the SA participation brings in will help them?

[JM2K6]

The SA teams accelerate the failure of the competition, that's the point. I understand that they are good sides. I also understand that you can't look beyond that.

I am surprised by your view on the 6N given how short a step it is now from SA Super Rugby franchises being in the Champions a Cup to SA being in the the 6N. The European competition existed in large part to be the on ramp to the 6N in the first place.

[JM2K6]

Am phone posting - who expects to commute to an office in 2023 - so apologies in advance.

The "if you don't like the discussion don't read it" was me mocking the "if you don't like what the tournament has become don't watch it" point made earlier, which is a desperately stupid way to engage in criticism. Imagine my surprise over being told "if you don't like the travel don't go"! Also really fucking stupid!

First things first: I'm not pinning all the blame on SA sides. I've been pretty consistent on this; even in this recent argument I've said the tournament was going downhill. My problem is that what props up the tournament and makes it something more than just soulless Rugby Content(tm) is the history, the tradition, and the traveling fan engagement with matches. SA sides in it accelerate the decay by fucking a lot of that into a bin.

It has never been about the quality of the SA sides. Almost any Super Rugby team would be better than 50% of the competition. Actually giving a shit about matches requires more than just the quality of the sides. Super Rugby teams can be amazing but the messing around with the format lost a lot of the interest - but how can that be when so many teams were high quality? Turns out that the best sport isn't just exhibition matches.

I'm pleased that you as a fan of South African rugby have been excited by and are enjoying both the URC and the Champions Cup. It is not a surprise. You go from a moribund tournament, to having to play amongst yourselves, to a NH tournament, to the flagship European tournament where your teams are good enough to beat most other teams and are in with a shout of winning the thing. Also, your large expat community gets to go to games. That's great for South Africa! It makes total sense you guys are thrilled by a near perfect solution to your problem that isn't magically inventing your own domestic tournament that's worth the time or having other African teams suddenly become good enough.

But the calculations on the other side are much worse. The travel is stupid for teams and insane for fans. The quality of the teams is a double edged sword; the existing inequality is just enlarged. European rugby is about history and multi year stories and the context of the shared histories of the nations that provide the teams and what it means for the 6 nations etcetc. SA sides are largely devoid of all of that.

I fully expect SA to join the 6 Nations, to the same objections, and to the same confusion from SA fans who don't understand why their team doesn't belong, why it damages what makes the tournament special, and why "if you don't like x then don't y" is not a logical response.

Weegie: fair enough, you've done your research. I'll withdraw that complaint and just aim my ire at the cunts who thought keeping that format was the right idea.

Look, the feeling I got from that podcast and to a lesser extent from you is that there is indeed a lot of nostalgia and love for the HC from European fans. You must try and understand that the failure of the competition is not our fault, the fact that the French don't want more pool games or that some don't send their best teams for the away games. Or that some of the English/Welsh are just a bit shit and are going through some rough times. None of these things are our fault. You messed up the golden goose. How you wish to package that up and deal with it is up to you. But we have been given an opportunity to compete in a new comp and that's what we are trying to do. We offer competitive teams, with some world class players, which should bring tangible value to the competition. If we don't, or you keep looking down your noses at us, then keep it. You seem to be doing great job of destroying it by yourselves. Last thing we want to hear is the likes of you blaming SA instead of seeing us as an opportunity because you are resistant to change.

As for joining the 6N, it would be an atrocity. Here I agree 110% with you. I hope for everything that is still good in this world that never ever happens.

As a Scot I have to agree with the the above from Love of the Game. The English rugby situation is clusterfuck driven by greed and poor governship. It has been happy to sell its soul for the chance of a quick buck and now we see the turkeys coming home to roost as clubs fail financially as the Flash Harry owners have stripped the assets and disappear. Ironically the English clubs need the SA teams more than they realise as they bring cash to the competition and ultimately keep some of the English teams afloat financially. I welcome the SA teams to both the URC and the Euro competitions, they bring something different and fresh to the competition and I have enjoyed watching them play live and on the tv. Of course there are issues around travel just as there are to a lesser extent with Italian teams but that is a price worth paying - by the way I hear that our URC teams have enjoyed the opportunity to go on the mini tours to SA as the modern game has meant that many haven't had the chance to tour like they did in the old days.

English rugby is going through a difficult period at the moment and many clubs are struggling to balance the books and are having to offload players as a result. This has been entirely of their own making along with a compliant or failing RFU. Scottish rugby and Irish rugby had these issues when pro rugby was first introduced. Welsh rugby is going through a similar struggle at the moment but seem to have found a more stable footing now. I suspect English rugby has a way to go yet before it has a financially sustainable model for the future but I am sure the additional funds the SA participation brings in will help them?

yeah that's right, there's no issues with the tournament, it's the big bad English who've ruined their own game and are blaming everyone else.

What additional funds are these then, btw

[SaintK]

Am phone posting - who expects to commute to an office in 2023 - so apologies in advance.

The "if you don't like the discussion don't read it" was me mocking the "if you don't like what the tournament has become don't watch it" point made earlier, which is a desperately stupid way to engage in criticism. Imagine my surprise over being told "if you don't like the travel don't go"! Also really fucking stupid!

First things first: I'm not pinning all the blame on SA sides. I've been pretty consistent on this; even in this recent argument I've said the tournament was going downhill. My problem is that what props up the tournament and makes it something more than just soulless Rugby Content(tm) is the history, the tradition, and the traveling fan engagement with matches. SA sides in it accelerate the decay by fucking a lot of that into a bin.

It has never been about the quality of the SA sides. Almost any Super Rugby team would be better than 50% of the competition. Actually giving a shit about matches requires more than just the quality of the sides. Super Rugby teams can be amazing but the messing around with the format lost a lot of the interest - but how can that be when so many teams were high quality? Turns out that the best sport isn't just exhibition matches.

I'm pleased that you as a fan of South African rugby have been excited by and are enjoying both the URC and the Champions Cup. It is not a surprise. You go from a moribund tournament, to having to play amongst yourselves, to a NH tournament, to the flagship European tournament where your teams are good enough to beat most other teams and are in with a shout of winning the thing. Also, your large expat community gets to go to games. That's great for South Africa! It makes total sense you guys are thrilled by a near perfect solution to your problem that isn't magically inventing your own domestic tournament that's worth the time or having other African teams suddenly become good enough.

But the calculations on the other side are much worse. The travel is stupid for teams and insane for fans. The quality of the teams is a double edged sword; the existing inequality is just enlarged. European rugby is about history and multi year stories and the context of the shared histories of the nations that provide the teams and what it means for the 6 nations etcetc. SA sides are largely devoid of all of that.

I fully expect SA to join the 6 Nations, to the same objections, and to the same confusion from SA fans who don't understand why their team doesn't belong, why it damages what makes the tournament special, and why "if you don't like x then don't y" is not a logical response.

Weegie: fair enough, you've done your research. I'll withdraw that complaint and just aim my ire at the cunts who thought keeping that format was the right idea.

Look, the feeling I got from that podcast and to a lesser extent from you is that there is indeed a lot of nostalgia and love for the HC from European fans. You must try and understand that the failure of the competition is not our fault, the fact that the French don't want more pool games or that some don't send their best teams for the away games. Or that some of the English/Welsh are just a bit shit and are going through some rough times. None of these things are our fault. You messed up the golden goose. How you wish to package that up and deal with it is up to you. But we have been given an opportunity to compete in a new comp and that's what we are trying to do. We offer competitive teams, with some world class players, which should bring tangible value to the competition. If we don't, or you keep looking down your noses at us, then keep it. You seem to be doing great job of destroying it by yourselves. Last thing we want to hear is the likes of you blaming SA instead of seeing us as an opportunity because you are resistant to change.

As for joining the 6N, it would be an atrocity. Here I agree 110% with you. I hope for everything that is still good in this world that never ever happens.

As a Scot I have to agree with the the above from Love of the Game. The English rugby situation is clusterfuck driven by greed and poor governship. It has been happy to sell its soul for the chance of a quick buck and now we see the turkeys coming home to roost as clubs fail financially as the Flash Harry owners have stripped the assets and disappear. Ironically the English clubs need the SA teams more than they realise as they bring cash to the competition and ultimately keep some of the English teams afloat financially. I welcome the SA teams to both the URC and the Euro competitions, they bring something different and fresh to the competition and I have enjoyed watching them play live and on the tv. Of course there are issues around travel just as there are to a lesser extent with Italian teams but that is a price worth paying - by the way I hear that our URC teams have enjoyed the opportunity to go on the mini tours to SA as the modern game has meant that many haven't had the chance to tour like they did in the old days.

English rugby is going through a difficult period at the moment and many clubs are struggling to balance the books and are having to offload players as a result. This has been entirely of their own making along with a compliant or failing RFU. Scottish rugby and Irish rugby had these issues when pro rugby was first introduced. Welsh rugby is going through a similar struggle at the moment but seem to have found a more stable footing now. I suspect English rugby has a way to go yet before it has a financially sustainable model for the future but I am sure the additional funds the SA participation brings in will help them?

Can you tell me what those funds are and where they go?
Also who pays for all the to and fro travel to SA, is it subsidised by ERC?
Been meaning to ask that for a while as I don't really understand the finances. Am assuming this is mainly supported by TV money and sponsorship?

[inactionman]

Am phone posting - who expects to commute to an office in 2023 - so apologies in advance.

The "if you don't like the discussion don't read it" was me mocking the "if you don't like what the tournament has become don't watch it" point made earlier, which is a desperately stupid way to engage in criticism. Imagine my surprise over being told "if you don't like the travel don't go"! Also really fucking stupid!

First things first: I'm not pinning all the blame on SA sides. I've been pretty consistent on this; even in this recent argument I've said the tournament was going downhill. My problem is that what props up the tournament and makes it something more than just soulless Rugby Content(tm) is the history, the tradition, and the traveling fan engagement with matches. SA sides in it accelerate the decay by fucking a lot of that into a bin.

It has never been about the quality of the SA sides. Almost any Super Rugby team would be better than 50% of the competition. Actually giving a shit about matches requires more than just the quality of the sides. Super Rugby teams can be amazing but the messing around with the format lost a lot of the interest - but how can that be when so many teams were high quality? Turns out that the best sport isn't just exhibition matches.

I'm pleased that you as a fan of South African rugby have been excited by and are enjoying both the URC and the Champions Cup. It is not a surprise. You go from a moribund tournament, to having to play amongst yourselves, to a NH tournament, to the flagship European tournament where your teams are good enough to beat most other teams and are in with a shout of winning the thing. Also, your large expat community gets to go to games. That's great for South Africa! It makes total sense you guys are thrilled by a near perfect solution to your problem that isn't magically inventing your own domestic tournament that's worth the time or having other African teams suddenly become good enough.

But the calculations on the other side are much worse. The travel is stupid for teams and insane for fans. The quality of the teams is a double edged sword; the existing inequality is just enlarged. European rugby is about history and multi year stories and the context of the shared histories of the nations that provide the teams and what it means for the 6 nations etcetc. SA sides are largely devoid of all of that.

I fully expect SA to join the 6 Nations, to the same objections, and to the same confusion from SA fans who don't understand why their team doesn't belong, why it damages what makes the tournament special, and why "if you don't like x then don't y" is not a logical response.

Weegie: fair enough, you've done your research. I'll withdraw that complaint and just aim my ire at the cunts who thought keeping that format was the right idea.

Look, the feeling I got from that podcast and to a lesser extent from you is that there is indeed a lot of nostalgia and love for the HC from European fans. You must try and understand that the failure of the competition is not our fault, the fact that the French don't want more pool games or that some don't send their best teams for the away games. Or that some of the English/Welsh are just a bit shit and are going through some rough times. None of these things are our fault. You messed up the golden goose. How you wish to package that up and deal with it is up to you. But we have been given an opportunity to compete in a new comp and that's what we are trying to do. We offer competitive teams, with some world class players, which should bring tangible value to the competition. If we don't, or you keep looking down your noses at us, then keep it. You seem to be doing great job of destroying it by yourselves. Last thing we want to hear is the likes of you blaming SA instead of seeing us as an opportunity because you are resistant to change.

As for joining the 6N, it would be an atrocity. Here I agree 110% with you. I hope for everything that is still good in this world that never ever happens.

As a Scot I have to agree with the the above from Love of the Game. The English rugby situation is clusterfuck driven by greed and poor governship. It has been happy to sell its soul for the chance of a quick buck and now we see the turkeys coming home to roost as clubs fail financially as the Flash Harry owners have stripped the assets and disappear. Ironically the English clubs need the SA teams more than they realise as they bring cash to the competition and ultimately keep some of the English teams afloat financially. I welcome the SA teams to both the URC and the Euro competitions, they bring something different and fresh to the competition and I have enjoyed watching them play live and on the tv. Of course there are issues around travel just as there are to a lesser extent with Italian teams but that is a price worth paying - by the way I hear that our URC teams have enjoyed the opportunity to go on the mini tours to SA as the modern game has meant that many haven't had the chance to tour like they did in the old days.

English rugby is going through a difficult period at the moment and many clubs are struggling to balance the books and are having to offload players as a result. This has been entirely of their own making along with a compliant or failing RFU. Scottish rugby and Irish rugby had these issues when pro rugby was first introduced. Welsh rugby is going through a similar struggle at the moment but seem to have found a more stable footing now. I suspect English rugby has a way to go yet before it has a financially sustainable model for the future but I am sure the additional funds the SA participation brings in will help them?

The bolded section is incorrect.

The problem is that many clubs have a degree of reliance upon wealthy owners to bankroll - Bath, Bristol are two egregious examples but I also include Wray, Rowe etc. Worcester is the only case of asset stripping I'm aware of, Wasps of simple poor management, and London Welsh of excessive risk-taking. The problem is the exact opposite of asset stripping and grabbing owners - clubs are living close to or outside their bound of affordability, and if their backer decides to leave many could be in trouble. How long Bruce Craig, for example, throws money into Bath is anyone's guess - but he's anything but greedy.

But, yes, English rugby has the problem of privately owned ventures and a weak RFU, particularly at the dawn of professionalism.

I'm a bit lost as to how South African teams in the Euro competitions helps the above, it's simply a different set of teams.

[_Os_]

What are you even trying to argue here, Os?

Cost, I've never paid £2k for a return to SA. A stop in Dubai makes it easier and cheaper, it's 9 hours stretch your legs then 9 hours (rather than 13 or so hours straight) ... and I'm a unit.

It's not going to kill anyone's finances (on an average salary) going to SA if they really want to and save a little, pointless going for a weekend though won't get full value.

Okay. I accept that you wouldn't pay that. But someone trying to get to SA on a flight short enough to make it so they don't have to take a lot of holiday at relatively short notice is gong to be paying a lot more than the £500 you seem to think is the level.

There are people who follow sports teams who are actually willing to travel long distance for a long time to basically spend a weekend somewhere! But they don't do it if it also costs them a shit ton of money.

We agree going for the knockouts for a single weekend isn't viable, and I haven't said otherwise in this thread at any point. What's then happening is you're refusing to say "you have a point if someone wants to combine a holiday with watching rugby, the cost of air travel goes down significantly" (which would've shortened this discussion), presumably this is what the few travelling fans we're seeing in SA are doing, sort of doubt the 100 or so Clermont away fans for the Stormers match on the weekend paid £2k in return tickets for a weekend trip.