2022/23 Champions/Challenge Cup

[Paddington Bear]

Describing the situation in England as one of greed is just an indication that you haven't been paying attention, wilfully or otherwise. From a financial perspective just about every man who has pumped money into a Premiership club since the game went pro has made probably the worst financial decision of their lives.

Let's also not forget that we are one world cup cycle on from decrying what was happening in French club rugby as the anti-Christ and the end of France as an international force, before that it was all hand wringing about the NH being beaten like we owed the SH money, before that the English clubs were the true force etc etc. These things are cyclical. England has a pro model that was uniquely exposed to covid. Give it a few years and some retrenchment and we'll be absolutely fine, we'll have a couple of years of European dominance and when we next win a GS all the same people will queue up to laud our system over the others.

Focusing on the Champions Cup, there's no doubt the restructuring went poorly and it is harsh to blame the Saffers for the whole mess. With that said, rugby is not football and this is not the Champions League. If a rugby tournament is set up in a style that is clearly (at least perceived to be) inequitable to one of its critical participants it won't work. ERC and those who benefited from the previous structure either did know this and didn't care or somehow kidded themselves it didn't matter.

[LoveOfTheGame]

The SA teams accelerate the failure of the competition, that's the point. I understand that they are good sides. I also understand that you can't look beyond that.

I am surprised by your view on the 6N given how short a step it is now from SA Super Rugby franchises being in the Champions a Cup to SA being in the the 6N. The European competition existed in large part to be the on ramp to the 6N in the first place.

Erm no. The point is that it's failing. Anyway, let's see how this season goes ok?

I can handle most things, but not playing the AB's, Wallabies and Puma's in the RC would be the straw that broke the camel's back for me. If the Boks don't play in the RC and move to the 6N, I'd be done with rugby. It would ruin test rugby.

[JM2K6]

Cost, I've never paid £2k for a return to SA. A stop in Dubai makes it easier and cheaper, it's 9 hours stretch your legs then 9 hours (rather than 13 or so hours straight) ... and I'm a unit.

It's not going to kill anyone's finances (on an average salary) going to SA if they really want to and save a little, pointless going for a weekend though won't get full value.

Okay. I accept that you wouldn't pay that. But someone trying to get to SA on a flight short enough to make it so they don't have to take a lot of holiday at relatively short notice is gong to be paying a lot more than the £500 you seem to think is the level.

There are people who follow sports teams who are actually willing to travel long distance for a long time to basically spend a weekend somewhere! But they don't do it if it also costs them a shit ton of money.

We agree going for the knockouts for a single weekend isn't viable, and I haven't said otherwise in this thread at any point. What's then happening is you're refusing to say "you have a point if someone wants to combine a holiday with watching rugby, the cost of air travel goes down significantly" (which would've shortened this discussion), presumably this is what the few travelling fans we're seeing in SA are doing, sort of doubt the 100 or so Clermont away fans for the Stormers match on the weekend paid £2k in return tickets for a weekend trip.

I think you've forgotten the comment I replied to originally that triggered this. Average Joe was talking about it as a short trip.

[Lobby]

Look, the feeling I got from that podcast and to a lesser extent from you is that there is indeed a lot of nostalgia and love for the HC from European fans. You must try and understand that the failure of the competition is not our fault, the fact that the French don't want more pool games or that some don't send their best teams for the away games. Or that some of the English/Welsh are just a bit shit and are going through some rough times. None of these things are our fault. You messed up the golden goose. How you wish to package that up and deal with it is up to you. But we have been given an opportunity to compete in a new comp and that's what we are trying to do. We offer competitive teams, with some world class players, which should bring tangible value to the competition. If we don't, or you keep looking down your noses at us, then keep it. You seem to be doing great job of destroying it by yourselves. Last thing we want to hear is the likes of you blaming SA instead of seeing us as an opportunity because you are resistant to change.

As for joining the 6N, it would be an atrocity. Here I agree 110% with you. I hope for everything that is still good in this world that never ever happens.

As a Scot I have to agree with the the above from Love of the Game. The English rugby situation is clusterfuck driven by greed and poor governship. It has been happy to sell its soul for the chance of a quick buck and now we see the turkeys coming home to roost as clubs fail financially as the Flash Harry owners have stripped the assets and disappear. Ironically the English clubs need the SA teams more than they realise as they bring cash to the competition and ultimately keep some of the English teams afloat financially. I welcome the SA teams to both the URC and the Euro competitions, they bring something different and fresh to the competition and I have enjoyed watching them play live and on the tv. Of course there are issues around travel just as there are to a lesser extent with Italian teams but that is a price worth paying - by the way I hear that our URC teams have enjoyed the opportunity to go on the mini tours to SA as the modern game has meant that many haven't had the chance to tour like they did in the old days.

English rugby is going through a difficult period at the moment and many clubs are struggling to balance the books and are having to offload players as a result. This has been entirely of their own making along with a compliant or failing RFU. Scottish rugby and Irish rugby had these issues when pro rugby was first introduced. Welsh rugby is going through a similar struggle at the moment but seem to have found a more stable footing now. I suspect English rugby has a way to go yet before it has a financially sustainable model for the future but I am sure the additional funds the SA participation brings in will help them?

yeah that's right, there's no issues with the tournament, it's the big bad English who've ruined their own game and are blaming everyone else.

What additional funds are these then, btw

'its all the fault of the English' is Dpedin's default response to every question under the sun, so its hardly a surprise he's come up with the same response here.

[Paddington Bear]

As a Scot I have to agree with the the above from Love of the Game. The English rugby situation is clusterfuck driven by greed and poor governship. It has been happy to sell its soul for the chance of a quick buck and now we see the turkeys coming home to roost as clubs fail financially as the Flash Harry owners have stripped the assets and disappear. Ironically the English clubs need the SA teams more than they realise as they bring cash to the competition and ultimately keep some of the English teams afloat financially. I welcome the SA teams to both the URC and the Euro competitions, they bring something different and fresh to the competition and I have enjoyed watching them play live and on the tv. Of course there are issues around travel just as there are to a lesser extent with Italian teams but that is a price worth paying - by the way I hear that our URC teams have enjoyed the opportunity to go on the mini tours to SA as the modern game has meant that many haven't had the chance to tour like they did in the old days.

English rugby is going through a difficult period at the moment and many clubs are struggling to balance the books and are having to offload players as a result. This has been entirely of their own making along with a compliant or failing RFU. Scottish rugby and Irish rugby had these issues when pro rugby was first introduced. Welsh rugby is going through a similar struggle at the moment but seem to have found a more stable footing now. I suspect English rugby has a way to go yet before it has a financially sustainable model for the future but I am sure the additional funds the SA participation brings in will help them?

yeah that's right, there's no issues with the tournament, it's the big bad English who've ruined their own game and are blaming everyone else.

What additional funds are these then, btw

'its all the fault of the English' is Dpedin's default response to every question under the sun, so its hardly a surprise he's come up with the same response here.

There has been more than a hint of 'hand down the trousers' in some of the discussions about the Premiership of late

[PornDog]

Can you tell me what those funds are and where they go?
Also who pays for all the to and fro travel to SA, is it subsidised by ERC?
Been meaning to ask that for a while as I don't really understand the finances. Am assuming this is mainly supported by TV money and sponsorship?

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!


* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

[LoveOfTheGame]

Describing the situation in England as one of greed is just an indication that you haven't been paying attention, wilfully or otherwise. From a financial perspective just about every man who has pumped money into a Premiership club since the game went pro has made probably the worst financial decision of their lives.

Let's also not forget that we are one world cup cycle on from decrying what was happening in French club rugby as the anti-Christ and the end of France as an international force, before that it was all hand wringing about the NH being beaten like we owed the SH money, before that the English clubs were the true force etc etc. These things are cyclical. England has a pro model that was uniquely exposed to covid. Give it a few years and some retrenchment and we'll be absolutely fine, we'll have a couple of years of European dominance and when we next win a GS all the same people will queue up to laud our system over the others.

Focusing on the Champions Cup, there's no doubt the restructuring went poorly and it is harsh to blame the Saffers for the whole mess. With that said, rugby is not football and this is not the Champions League. If a rugby tournament is set up in a style that is clearly (at least perceived to be) inequitable to one of its critical participants it won't work. ERC and those who benefited from the previous structure either did know this and didn't care or somehow kidded themselves it didn't matter.

Same podcast I mentioned above discussed the apparent financial disparity between the French and English clubs, how the salary cap affects the English clubs, but not the French. From memory ROG did not agree with this view at all. What was interesting as well was that how the Premiership and T14 clubs prioritise the local comps. Basically boils down to if they are not good enough, then they don't bother with the HC really. Too much risk with injuring key players and losing out on competing for their applicable leagues. The T14 being such a marathon as well is the reason behind why they don't want to have more group stage matches. I also better understand now why Leinster picked their "b" team to tour SA last year, getting the mix right between the URC and HC will be no easy task for the SA sides. We will learn quickly enough I guess.

[weegie01]

Can you tell me what those funds are and where they go?
Also who pays for all the to and fro travel to SA, is it subsidised by ERC?
Been meaning to ask that for a while as I don't really understand the finances. Am assuming this is mainly supported by TV money and sponsorship?

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!

* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

The SA sides are paying to compete in the URC. I assume some of that goes to subsidise the travel of the other sides. I do not know about the HEC, but I would be very surprised if there was not some similar arrangement. Otherwise why on earth would they let the SA sides in the competition if, on top of everything elise it is a financial drain?

[_Os_]

I fully expect SA to join the 6 Nations, to the same objections, and to the same confusion from SA fans who don't understand why their team doesn't belong, why it damages what makes the tournament special, and why "if you don't like x then don't y" is not a logical response.

My experience of similar discussions when SA was a fuller member of SANZAAR than it is now, is that it's going to go the opposite way and SA will fall out of this competition and only play URC (it seems we're wanted there?). Same with SA's multiple RWC bids that were independently rated as the best and failed each time. It doesn't actually matter what SA does it seems.

The progression is clearly towards Aussie levels anguish about us, they ended up essentially blaming us for Aussies not liking (real) rugby because of Super Rugby match times. That was their final gambit, that we were the blame for the demise of Australian rugby. Of course without us Australian rugby has now magically revived itself, this is why Eddie Moans will lead them through two RWCs and a Lions series, the same coach who lost the Wallaby job in 2005 in large part because of a 7 match losing run in which the Boks contributed 3 of those defeats.

LOTG's general point that's it's not our fault looks correct to me, the problems that necessitated us joining (basically a model predicated on leverage/debt when there's no further easy growth in Europe ... different to the Aussie/Super Rugby issue, which is "Aussie rugby types cannot admit their country doesn't like rugby much") remain after we're gone.

[westport]

Can you tell me what those funds are and where they go?
Also who pays for all the to and fro travel to SA, is it subsidised by ERC?
Been meaning to ask that for a while as I don't really understand the finances. Am assuming this is mainly supported by TV money and sponsorship?

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!


* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

I heard something last week that when EPRC took over Heinekin ended up paying in, IIRC, 25% less than when with ERC.

ETA It was on this

[sockwithaticket]

Can you tell me what those funds are and where they go?
Also who pays for all the to and fro travel to SA, is it subsidised by ERC?
Been meaning to ask that for a while as I don't really understand the finances. Am assuming this is mainly supported by TV money and sponsorship?

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!


* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

I heard something last week that when EPRC took over Heinekin ended up paying in, IIRC, 25% less than when with ERC.

IIRC they wouldn't re-up the existing sponsorship deal with Heineken, believing that they could get better deals elsewhere. They failed to generate any interest and went slinking back to Heineken who reduced their offer in full knowledge they were the only real option.

[Paddington Bear]

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!


* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

I heard something last week that when EPRC took over Heinekin ended up paying in, IIRC, 25% less than when with ERC.

IIRC they wouldn't re-up the existing sponsorship deal with Heineken, believing that they could get better deals elsewhere. They failed to generate any interest and went slinking back to Heineken who reduced their offer in full knowledge they were the only real option.

This happened with the 6N as well right? Too many execs seemingly unaware that they are running a minority sport

[westport]

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!


* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

I heard something last week that when EPRC took over Heinekin ended up paying in, IIRC, 25% less than when with ERC.

IIRC they wouldn't re-up the existing sponsorship deal with Heineken, believing that they could get better deals elsewhere. They failed to generate any interest and went slinking back to Heineken who reduced their offer in full knowledge they were the only real option.

Thanks. I knew it was something like that but couldn't quite remember. They certainly screwed it up.

[SaintK]

Can you tell me what those funds are and where they go?
Also who pays for all the to and fro travel to SA, is it subsidised by ERC?
Been meaning to ask that for a while as I don't really understand the finances. Am assuming this is mainly supported by TV money and sponsorship?

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!

* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

The SA sides are paying to compete in the URC. I assume some of that goes to subsidise the travel of the other sides. I do not know about the HEC, but I would be very surprised if there was not some similar arrangement. Otherwise why on earth would they let the SA sides in the competition if, on top of everything elise it is a financial drain?

That all sounds pretty dodgy
Is thgere any SA TV money? I assume EPCR must have negotiated with the broadcasters there?

[sockwithaticket]

I heard something last week that when EPRC took over Heinekin ended up paying in, IIRC, 25% less than when with ERC.

IIRC they wouldn't re-up the existing sponsorship deal with Heineken, believing that they could get better deals elsewhere. They failed to generate any interest and went slinking back to Heineken who reduced their offer in full knowledge they were the only real option.

This happened with the 6N as well right? Too many execs seemingly unaware that they are running a minority sport

Yep and quite close together too. Real face palm moment for the sport.

[PornDog]

Can you tell me what those funds are and where they go?
Also who pays for all the to and fro travel to SA, is it subsidised by ERC?
Been meaning to ask that for a while as I don't really understand the finances. Am assuming this is mainly supported by TV money and sponsorship?

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!

* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

The SA sides are paying to compete in the URC. I assume some of that goes to subsidise the travel of the other sides. I do not know about the HEC, but I would be very surprised if there was not some similar arrangement. Otherwise why on earth would they let the SA sides in the competition if, on top of everything elise it is a financial drain?

I agree totally - there will most certainly be a financial contribution, either direct or via TV rights or both, but the thing is that we still have to just assume that because EPCR certainly wont be telling us about it.


Westport - indeed, listened to that myself (and prompted a thread on PR about the shitshow that is the current competition). I'd love to know Alex Payne's source on that, but would imagine it is someone at Heineken or an "off the record" source at EPCR. Certainly nothing official about it (and in fairness why would they - you're hardly going to announce how incompetent you are to the whole world now are you?)

[JM2K6]

Describing the situation in England as one of greed is just an indication that you haven't been paying attention, wilfully or otherwise. From a financial perspective just about every man who has pumped money into a Premiership club since the game went pro has made probably the worst financial decision of their lives.

Let's also not forget that we are one world cup cycle on from decrying what was happening in French club rugby as the anti-Christ and the end of France as an international force, before that it was all hand wringing about the NH being beaten like we owed the SH money, before that the English clubs were the true force etc etc. These things are cyclical. England has a pro model that was uniquely exposed to covid. Give it a few years and some retrenchment and we'll be absolutely fine, we'll have a couple of years of European dominance and when we next win a GS all the same people will queue up to laud our system over the others.

Focusing on the Champions Cup, there's no doubt the restructuring went poorly and it is harsh to blame the Saffers for the whole mess. With that said, rugby is not football and this is not the Champions League. If a rugby tournament is set up in a style that is clearly (at least perceived to be) inequitable to one of its critical participants it won't work. ERC and those who benefited from the previous structure either did know this and didn't care or somehow kidded themselves it didn't matter.

Same podcast I mentioned above discussed the apparent financial disparity between the French and English clubs, how the salary cap affects the English clubs, but not the French. From memory ROG did not agree with this view at all. What was interesting as well was that how the Premiership and T14 clubs prioritise the local comps. Basically boils down to if they are not good enough, then they don't bother with the HC really. Too much risk with injuring key players and losing out on competing for their applicable leagues. The T14 being such a marathon as well is the reason behind why they don't want to have more group stage matches. I also better understand now why Leinster picked their "b" team to tour SA last year, getting the mix right between the URC and HC will be no easy task for the SA sides. We will learn quickly enough I guess.

The salary cap is a necessary evil. I appreciate that for a long time a lot of English fans were pointing fingers at other countries ability to spend more and claiming it was unfair. On the face of it, it is unequal, but how we organise our game isn't anyone else's fault. The commercial, sporting, and social pressures are unique in each country and there's no use pretending we can have a truly equitable tournament, and certainly no use blaming anyone else for our own unique situation. Which, crucially, is why I don't do that. For the avoidance of doubt, I am also not blaming SA sides for anything other than their inclusion into the tournament and the negative effects of that. I don't see the fact that the tourmament was already damaged as a good reason to then damage the things the tournament still did well.

That is different to recognising the inequality inherent in the tournament, of course. The majority of fans support teams that have no real chance of winning the tournament, which is unhealthy, and it can lead to a disconnect between supporters of teams who regularly threaten the business end of the tournament with squads that can compete against everyone, and those who support teams that can mix it with the best on any given day with their first XV (the likes of Quins etc) that is rarely available and don't have the same level of squad depth, or simply don't (or can't) have a first XV that can match up to the big money sides. It's a totally different perspective and one of the reasons why, for example, supporters of Scottish sides might look at thing differently to supporters of English clubs, who will have a totally different view to that of Leinster fans, and then there's the French...

Sadly the people in charge largely look to football as their inspiration, because football has a ridiculous amount of money in the game. Hence shithouse format changes, everything being geared to squeezing the last penny out of people, trying to ensure the biggest draws have the least possible jeopardy, etc. But football and rugby are not the same, and none of these money-blinded idiots can accept that.

As for Premiership prioritising the local comps - that's untrue. For the Champions Cup at least, it's very rare for a team to not put out their best side unless it's the tail end of the group stage and they're already out or are in an extreme scenario regarding injuries etc. We're not the French. Given that I would actually prefer it if we sacked off Europe sometimes because of the insane grind of the season, I find it weird that people are claiming it's something we do. It ain't a thing. I suspect some of this comes from ROG looking at weakened teams and thinking it's a deliberate action when he's just unaware of a glut of injuries.

I would suggest that getting all your info from a podcast featuring Haskell and Tindall is possibly not the wisest. They are not exactly deep thinkers. More pub bores with a line in trying to stir up some shit for bants.

[sockwithaticket]

I would suggest that getting all your info from a podcast featuring Haskell and Tindall is possibly not the wisest. They are not exactly deep thinkers. More pub bores with a line in trying to stir up some shit for bants.

I've long since stopped watching because Haskell went from just about tolerable to completely unbearable, but when I did I found their 'issue' episodes deeply frustrating for being so surface level. Given the level of guest they seem to be able to attract, the inability to create a proper debate with them is a real waste.

One of the last I watched featured Brett Gosper and Mark Evans and it was impossible to get anywhere, not least because Haskell was involved

[LoveOfTheGame]

I would suggest that getting all your info from a podcast featuring Haskell and Tindall is possibly not the wisest. They are not exactly deep thinkers. More pub bores with a line in trying to stir up some shit for bants.

I've long since stopped watching because Haskell went from just about tolerable to completely unbearable, but when I did I found their 'issue' episodes deeply frustrating for being so surface level. Given the level of guest they seem to be able to attract, the inability to create a proper debate with them is a real waste.

One of the last I watched featured Brett Gosper and Mark Evans and it was impossible to get anywhere, not least because Haskell was involved

I don't It just popped up on my YouTube feed and thought it was pretty topical, so I watched it out of curiosity. Now that I think over it, I am convinced the presenter is JM2K6. They are both equally as negative about the saffa teams, as they are clueless about fixing the Champions Cup. Listening to them and the coaches and then reading some of the comments on here, I better understand why the HC is in such a mess.

I actually watch Offload with Marc, Ryan and Max. Good lads that don't take themselves so seriously.

[OomStruisbaai]

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!

* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

The SA sides are paying to compete in the URC. I assume some of that goes to subsidise the travel of the other sides. I do not know about the HEC, but I would be very surprised if there was not some similar arrangement. Otherwise why on earth would they let the SA sides in the competition if, on top of everything elise it is a financial drain?

That all sounds pretty dodgy
Is thgere any SA TV money? I assume EPCR must have negotiated with the broadcasters there?

SA dont get any TV money until 2025. SARU pay our franchises travelling cost. That's our price to play in the competition and the reason why we have to fly Quatar and took up to 50 hours to get to Glasgow. It cost SARU R400 million

[weegie01]

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!

* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

The SA sides are paying to compete in the URC. I assume some of that goes to subsidise the travel of the other sides. I do not know about the HEC, but I would be very surprised if there was not some similar arrangement. Otherwise why on earth would they let the SA sides in the competition if, on top of everything elise it is a financial drain?

That all sounds pretty dodgy
Is thgere any SA TV money? I assume EPCR must have negotiated with the broadcasters there?

Why is it dodgy? The Italians did the same when they joined.

[SaintK]

The SA sides are paying to compete in the URC. I assume some of that goes to subsidise the travel of the other sides. I do not know about the HEC, but I would be very surprised if there was not some similar arrangement. Otherwise why on earth would they let the SA sides in the competition if, on top of everything elise it is a financial drain?

That all sounds pretty dodgy
Is thgere any SA TV money? I assume EPCR must have negotiated with the broadcasters there?

Why is it dodgy? The Italians did the same when they joined.

Sorry, replied to PornDogs post not yours. See bolded sentence.

[JM2K6]

I would suggest that getting all your info from a podcast featuring Haskell and Tindall is possibly not the wisest. They are not exactly deep thinkers. More pub bores with a line in trying to stir up some shit for bants.

I've long since stopped watching because Haskell went from just about tolerable to completely unbearable, but when I did I found their 'issue' episodes deeply frustrating for being so surface level. Given the level of guest they seem to be able to attract, the inability to create a proper debate with them is a real waste.

One of the last I watched featured Brett Gosper and Mark Evans and it was impossible to get anywhere, not least because Haskell was involved

I don't It just popped up on my YouTube feed and thought it was pretty topical, so I watched it out of curiosity. Now that I think over it, I am convinced the presenter is JM2K6. They are both equally as negative about the saffa teams, as they are clueless about fixing the Champions Cup. Listening to them and the coaches and then reading some of the comments on here, I better understand why the HC is in such a mess.

I actually watch Offload with Marc, Ryan and Max. Good lads that don't take themselves so seriously.

It is an eternal delight discussing this stuff with belligerent saffers who listened to a podcast and consider themselves an expert on such a complex topic with a complicated and twisted history. Such a wonderful addition to all the other wonderful things SA's introduction to this tournament has brought.

[PornDog]

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!

That all sounds pretty dodgy

Is thgere any SA TV money? I assume EPCR must have negotiated with the broadcasters there?

<Sorry Saint, have rearranged this to make it clearer>

It's dodgy as fuck! This was why many people strongly objected to moving the HQ from Dublin to Switzerland in the first place - even leaving aside the ludicrous insinuated accusation of some sort of pro Irish corruption - It was obvious that transparency would disappear completely.

I assume all of the participating Unions/Leagues would be party to all the details as they are the stakeholders, but given the overall lack on info that's probably done under NDAs. It's all gone very FIFA in its shadyness.


As for your second line, of course they will be getting SA TV monies (it might even rival the Welsh), but we've next to zero chance of finding out anything about it. (Actually, SA might prove to be a better source of leaks for this sort of info going forward - if that's not too bold to suggest)

[PornDog]

It is an eternal delight discussing this stuff with belligerent saffers who listened to a podcast and consider themselves an expert on such a complex topic with a complicated and twisted history. Such a wonderful addition to all the other wonderful things SA's introduction to this tournament has brought.

Now you know how the rest of us feel when discussing things with you lot

You finally have some rivals in your obstinacy *


* Yes this is unfair, no I don't care

[JM2K6]

It is an eternal delight discussing this stuff with belligerent saffers who listened to a podcast and consider themselves an expert on such a complex topic with a complicated and twisted history. Such a wonderful addition to all the other wonderful things SA's introduction to this tournament has brought.

Now you know how the rest of us feel when discussing things with you lot

You finally have some rivals in your obstinacy *


* Yes this is unfair, no I don't care

I actually agree with you. The arguments over Europe on PR 5-10 years ago were insanely frustrating. Making a valid point and having an actual discussion was impossible because the well was so comprehensively poisoned.

[LoveOfTheGame]

I've long since stopped watching because Haskell went from just about tolerable to completely unbearable, but when I did I found their 'issue' episodes deeply frustrating for being so surface level. Given the level of guest they seem to be able to attract, the inability to create a proper debate with them is a real waste.

One of the last I watched featured Brett Gosper and Mark Evans and it was impossible to get anywhere, not least because Haskell was involved

I don't It just popped up on my YouTube feed and thought it was pretty topical, so I watched it out of curiosity. Now that I think over it, I am convinced the presenter is JM2K6. They are both equally as negative about the saffa teams, as they are clueless about fixing the Champions Cup. Listening to them and the coaches and then reading some of the comments on here, I better understand why the HC is in such a mess.

I actually watch Offload with Marc, Ryan and Max. Good lads that don't take themselves so seriously.

It is an eternal delight discussing this stuff with belligerent saffers who listened to a podcast and consider themselves an expert on such a complex topic with a complicated and twisted history. Such a wonderful addition to all the other wonderful things SA's introduction to this tournament has brought.

I realise us being in the comp is eating you up on the inside, but try not to let it fester. Makes you come across as bit grumpy and moody.

[JM2K6]

I don't It just popped up on my YouTube feed and thought it was pretty topical, so I watched it out of curiosity. Now that I think over it, I am convinced the presenter is JM2K6. They are both equally as negative about the saffa teams, as they are clueless about fixing the Champions Cup. Listening to them and the coaches and then reading some of the comments on here, I better understand why the HC is in such a mess.

I actually watch Offload with Marc, Ryan and Max. Good lads that don't take themselves so seriously.

It is an eternal delight discussing this stuff with belligerent saffers who listened to a podcast and consider themselves an expert on such a complex topic with a complicated and twisted history. Such a wonderful addition to all the other wonderful things SA's introduction to this tournament has brought.

I realise us being in the comp is eating you up on the inside, but try not to let it fester. Makes you come across as bit grumpy and moody.

lol caring about things is for suckers!!!

[SaintK]

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!

That all sounds pretty dodgy

Is thgere any SA TV money? I assume EPCR must have negotiated with the broadcasters there?

<Sorry Saint, have rearranged this to make it clearer>

It's dodgy as fuck! This was why many people strongly objected to moving the HQ from Dublin to Switzerland in the first place - even leaving aside the ludicrous insinuated accusation of some sort of pro Irish corruption - It was obvious that transparency would disappear completely.

I assume all of the participating Unions/Leagues would be party to all the details as they are the stakeholders, but given the overall lack on info that's probably done under NDAs. It's all gone very FIFA in its shadyness.


As for your second line, of course they will be getting SA TV monies (it might even rival the Welsh), but we've next to zero chance of finding out anything about it. (Actually, SA might prove to be a better source of leaks for this sort of info going forward - if that's not too bold to suggest)

Thanks for that!

[OomStruisbaai]

Summer rugby is a big success in South Africa

The introduction of “Summer Rugby” to South Africa for the first time featured local derbies in Durban and Cape Town on 23 December and 31 December, and with the coastal franchises under pressure to deliver a stadium spectacle that would be enough to lure fans from the beaches to the bleachers.

Both excelled as almost 100 000 fans attended these matches. Such was the positive response that the total of 95 538 fans made up the largest rugby audience of any country in the URC over that period.

URC boss

The benefit that we have had of the South African teams coming in – and hopefully it has been reciprocal – is the competition has got better, the more depth that we’ve got in everyone of our squads.

“What we’ve seen is teams like the Sharks not pick their best team and almost beat Leinster away from home. What we are starting to see is that when the best teams are out on the field, the competition is really top notch.

“What we’re seeing in the competition, the depth being created in each of the teams, that plays into the scenario we’ve always been trying to shoot for, is the ‘Any Given Sunday’ philosophy of depth in the competition and jeopardy from one game to another. Taking that forward into Europe has been very pleasant to see.

“What you are getting now is teams that have not had the run of results they’ve had in the league – say Ospreys and Scarlets winning away in places like Montpellier and Leicester. Scarlets have gone unbeaten in the group stages – we’ve seen that as well with Cardiff putting a really good run together. When they are doing that in those two competitions, it can only be a good thing when they bring that back to their league form.

“That’s the thing I like in having the League plus Cup playing like it does, that you can pick up form – if you don’t have it in the league, or vice versa, there is still something to play for in any game. That is a great aspect of any great series of competitions.”

While there may have been some initial skepticism, Anayi believes that the SA franchises’ performances have changed that perception and will continue to do so in future.

“I knew, because I’ve been through this with the URC entry, once we had teams going down to South Africa – just follow their social media – they’re having a great time. As soon as they get home, they pass that positivity on. I knew that was going to come.

“You hope the South African teams will be competitive at home against any rival, but what we’ve seen is South African teams being very competitive away from home. Then you have aspects like Siya Kolisi and Eben Etzebeth staying behind for more than an hour to sign autographs at the Stoop, and that’s connecting.

“It underlines the fact it is no longer European – this is about Champions’ Cup rugby, pitting the best teams against the best and we are getting that. There is nobody in this world that can tell me the big four South African franchises don’t deserve their spot at the table.”

[Camroc2]

Can you tell me what those funds are and where they go?
Also who pays for all the to and fro travel to SA, is it subsidised by ERC?
Been meaning to ask that for a while as I don't really understand the finances. Am assuming this is mainly supported by TV money and sponsorship?

The old ERC used to provide annual financial reports as well ad hoc info to the press. EPCR to my knowledge haven't released one iota of official financial information since its foundation *

We have to rely on data that comes from 2nd parties to try and glean any information.

So to answer your question, we don't know, and that seems to be by design!!!


* TBF I haven't gone digging for it, but in olden days there were press articles about this stuff and now there isn't.

Why do you think the Spivs moved the organisation from Dublin to Switzerland ?

[OomStruisbaai]

Who is Spivs?

[Tichtheid]

Who is Spivs?

Spiv is an insulting term for someone who makes dodgy deals, bordering on criminal, usually they are well-dressed.

I think it comes from the 1940s during the war, or that's my understanding of the origin.

In this case it will be the organisers of the European tournaments.

[Biffer]

Who is Spivs?

Spiv is an insulting term for someone who makes dodgy deals, bordering on criminal, usually they are well-dressed.

I think it comes from the 1940s during the war, or that's my understanding of the origin.

In this case it will be the organisers of the European tournaments.

anbd there is a category of owner who many people consider the spivs as well. In safferland you might consider the Sharks as spivs as they're the ones that keep chucking money around to the detriment of everyone else.

[OomStruisbaai]

Who is Spivs?

Spiv is an insulting term for someone who makes dodgy deals, bordering on criminal, usually they are well-dressed.

I think it comes from the 1940s during the war, or that's my understanding of the origin.

In this case it will be the organisers of the European tournaments.

anbd there is a category of owner who many people consider the spivs as well. In safferland you might consider the Sharks as spivs as they're the ones that keep chucking money around to the detriment of everyone else.

I thought the English are spivs. But it is the France lot.

[Biffer]

Spiv is an insulting term for someone who makes dodgy deals, bordering on criminal, usually they are well-dressed.

I think it comes from the 1940s during the war, or that's my understanding of the origin.

In this case it will be the organisers of the European tournaments.

anbd there is a category of owner who many people consider the spivs as well. In safferland you might consider the Sharks as spivs as they're the ones that keep chucking money around to the detriment of everyone else.

I thought the English are spivs. But it is the France lot.

Some English, some French.

[Sards]

Who is Spivs?

Spiv is an insulting term for someone who makes dodgy deals, bordering on criminal, usually they are well-dressed.

I think it comes from the 1940s during the war, or that's my understanding of the origin.

In this case it will be the organisers of the European tournaments.

anbd there is a category of owner who many people consider the spivs as well. In safferland you might consider the Sharks as spivs as they're the ones that keep chucking money around to the detriment of everyone else.

This nonsense is going north now. You make out like the rest all of us are holding out begging bowls.

[Biffer]

Spiv is an insulting term for someone who makes dodgy deals, bordering on criminal, usually they are well-dressed.

I think it comes from the 1940s during the war, or that's my understanding of the origin.

In this case it will be the organisers of the European tournaments.

anbd there is a category of owner who many people consider the spivs as well. In safferland you might consider the Sharks as spivs as they're the ones that keep chucking money around to the detriment of everyone else.

This nonsense is going north now. You make out like the rest all of us are holding out begging bowls.

Not my intention there - just seen some of you guys typing things like $hark$, and thought it was a similar situation to folk coming along and chucking money at a club in England and France. Apologies if that's not the case.

[SaintK]

A spiv is a man, typically a flashy dresser, who makes a living by disreputable dealings. Came to England mainly from Scotland!

[Sards]

Not my intention there - just seen some of you guys typing things like $hark$, and thought it was a similar situation to folk coming along and chucking money at a club in England and France. Apologies if that's not the case.

It is the case. But it's nothing unusual. The Sharks had the proper structure in place for an investor to feel comfortable parting with their money. There are some real shitshows around I can assure you. But the only reason people are uncomfortable with it is because it's either above their pay grade and comprehension or they are insanely jealous.

Without googling. What animal is in the Stormers logo.