The Official F1 Thread

[Ymx]

They pitted too early was the start, allowed Perez to mess with them. They had a clearly superior package imo. Then they didn’t pit again and left Hamilton on tyres which left him prone to a flag.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

It was a very strange change in terms of the lapped drivers suddenly being allowed through. As was the call to absolve Hamilton of the early infringement.

I don't know if Lewis did much wrong, he might have, but it depends on when the car in front can determine the line they want into a corner. Lewis was ahead when he started braking, he wasn't by the time Max was part done with his braking.

Unless the standard is you cannot pick a line at the point you begin braking into a corner, and that's a hell of a standard, then Lewis has to either bail out or crash given the position on track Max took, and it's hardly the first time Max has given another drive the choice of move over or crash. I think it's possible Lewis didn't drop back close enough to Max again whilst retaining the lead, and perhaps a fair call would have been a 1 second time penalty as that was the sort of advantage he did seem to gain.

Not sure we can really say Max made the corner and just overlook Lewis wasn't left any space, unless as above the standard on when you control the line into a corner comes some point in time after you've started braking for a corner, and that seems beyond daft.

[JM2K6]

They pitted too early was the start, allowed Perez to mess with them. They had a clearly superior package imo. Then they didn’t pit again and left Hamilton on tyres which left him prone to a flag.

They pitted when the tyres demanded it. They didn't pit again because it would've been the wrong choice - when do you think pitting again would've worked instead of handing Verstappen an advantage?

[Rhubarb & Custard]

It's only come down to the final laps because of the officials putting a heavy thumb on the scales. That's exactly the problem. Verstappen had already benefited massively from being able to pit and go onto fresh soft tyres. For the officials to then change their minds at the last second AND only let the ones in between Verstappen and Hamilton overtake, is a blatant attempt to drum up an exciting finish when Hamilton had already earned the complete opposite.

You're exactly the sort of person they did this for: someone who's easily impressed by the "drama", no matter how confected it might be.

Any which way it suggests it was a close season, and there was a viable contest to the end which doesn't seem like the sort of thing one labels a total farce. And with the initial missed opportunity to pit Hamilton in case Max went another 20 odd laps without a 2nd stop Mercedes can rather blame themselves, they don't need to complain about the vagaries of fate.

Not sure they did it for me mind, I was pissed off by the result. But maybe they wanted people to stop watching and go make a cup of tea.

You do understand that something can be a farce even if it's close, yes? The two aren't related - indeed, if the accusation is that they're making it up as they go along just to ensure it goes down to the wire, that's even more of a farce. Are you a big wrestling fan, perchance?

If Hamilton had pitted the first time, guess what would be different! Er, nothing. It just would've increased the chance of handing Verstappen a chance to overtake by the end. Again, Hamilton was miles ahead.

Nope, don't really follow any of the pugilistic sports. I thought however when you commented on it being a ridiculous decision at the end and then called it a total farce of the sport you'd linked those ideas, apologies it you meant an entire season of it being a close contest meant it was a total farce all along. Either way I don't agree, most sports you get decisions that can go either way, and Mercedes today were caught out being protective/conservative.

Had Hamilton pitted first time he'd have been on fresher tyres. Maybe not enough to keep him ahead, but it would have given him more to defend with than he had. And for as much as I don't like the outcome had they gone the other way it'd have left others unhappy, and I'm just not sold things not happening the way I want them to is the same as something being unfair and/or a farce

[TB63]

Shut the pit lane under yellow..

[Big D]

It was a very strange change in terms of the lapped drivers suddenly being allowed through. As was the call to absolve Hamilton of the early infringement.

Changing tyres whilst flags are up during race is nothing to get knickers twisted about. It’s been a constant, and always an option, strategy.

Red Bull beat Mercedes by strategy - and luck. Mercedes pitting strategy was poor throughout.

I think where there is a chance that Merc take this to court is that he didn't let all lapped cars through but just those between the main 2.

They shouldn't it is done and we move on. Hopefully to a season where Ferrari etc might be more racey.

[Kawazaki]

I don't know if Lewis did much wrong

One thing Hamilton can be criticized for is he continually leaves the inside door open. It's a really odd mistake he keeps making. Make Verstappen have to take the long way around.

[JM2K6]

Any which way it suggests it was a close season, and there was a viable contest to the end which doesn't seem like the sort of thing one labels a total farce. And with the initial missed opportunity to pit Hamilton in case Max went another 20 odd laps without a 2nd stop Mercedes can rather blame themselves, they don't need to complain about the vagaries of fate.

Not sure they did it for me mind, I was pissed off by the result. But maybe they wanted people to stop watching and go make a cup of tea.

You do understand that something can be a farce even if it's close, yes? The two aren't related - indeed, if the accusation is that they're making it up as they go along just to ensure it goes down to the wire, that's even more of a farce. Are you a big wrestling fan, perchance?

If Hamilton had pitted the first time, guess what would be different! Er, nothing. It just would've increased the chance of handing Verstappen a chance to overtake by the end. Again, Hamilton was miles ahead.

Nope, don't really follow any of the pugilistic sports. I thought however when you commented on it being a ridiculous decision at the end and then called it a total farce of the sport you'd linked those ideas, apologies it you meant an entire season of it being a close contest meant it was a total farce all along. Either way I don't agree, most sports you get decisions that can go either way, and Mercedes today were caught out being protective/conservative.

You must be unaware of the other "controversial" decisions made this season? And the FIA breaking their own rules in order to confect that finish isn't a decision that can go either way. The two ways that decision could go were:

1) Let the lapped cars overtake. The laws state that only when every lapped car has overtaken can the safety car come in. That would've meant a procession to the finish line - Lewis wins by default.
2) Keep the lapped cars. Safety car comes in, Max has one lap on new soft tyres to blow past the lapped cars and see if he can catch Hamilton. Lewis would still have a big advantage, but it would at least be one last effort for Verstappen to try and overtake.

Instead, they threw their own rulebook out the window, and went with:

3) Allow only the lapped cars between Verstappen and Hamilton to overtake, ensuring that Verstappen - on fresh soft tyres - was right by Hamilton when the race started, artificially handing him a huge advantage beyond that allowed by the fortune of the safety car to begin with

Had Hamilton pitted first time he'd have been on fresher tyres. Maybe not enough to keep him ahead, but it would have given him more to defend with than he had. And for as much as I don't like the outcome had they gone the other way it'd have left others unhappy, and I'm just not sold things not happening the way I want them to is the same as something being unfair and/or a farce

When did you expect Hamilton to pit? If he had, and this yellow didn't happen, Mercedes would've just handed the race to Verstappen. Mercedes' handling of the race meant that before the race director decided he wanted to see Verstappen and Hamilton neck-and-neck for the start of the final lap, Hamilton had easily seen off every single thing that Red Bull had tried to do and was winning comfortably.

I don't think you understand what just happened and why it's a farce, but you do you I guess.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I don't know if Lewis did much wrong

One thing Hamilton can be criticized for is he continually leaves the inside door open. It's a really odd mistake he keeps making. Make Verstappen have to take the long way around.

If Lewis takes the same line Max did but Max isn't shunted wide off the track does Hamilton then compromise himself for the coming corners anyway, and thus in this situation that's not really a solution for Hamilton? And to what extent does it reflect they allow drivers to be on different tyres?

Not sure I agree that's much of leaving the door open, Lewis isn't exactly famed as someone who's early on the brakes. More Max is happy to be late and say bollocks to anyone else, which once upon a time was racing, it just isn't now as per the theory of the driver regs

[Kawazaki]

Masi could have achieved what he wanted by red flagging the race. Then Hamilton and Verstappen could have both put new softs on and they'd have had one or two shit or bust laps.

[JM2K6]

Masi could have achieved what he wanted by red flagging the race. Then Hamilton and Verstappen could have both put new softs on and they'd have had one or two shit or bust laps.

The new champion is worth more than Hamilton winning again, though.

[Kawazaki]

Masi will get thrown under the bus over this. But the result won't change after these appeals are heard.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

You do understand that something can be a farce even if it's close, yes? The two aren't related - indeed, if the accusation is that they're making it up as they go along just to ensure it goes down to the wire, that's even more of a farce. Are you a big wrestling fan, perchance?

If Hamilton had pitted the first time, guess what would be different! Er, nothing. It just would've increased the chance of handing Verstappen a chance to overtake by the end. Again, Hamilton was miles ahead.

Nope, don't really follow any of the pugilistic sports. I thought however when you commented on it being a ridiculous decision at the end and then called it a total farce of the sport you'd linked those ideas, apologies it you meant an entire season of it being a close contest meant it was a total farce all along. Either way I don't agree, most sports you get decisions that can go either way, and Mercedes today were caught out being protective/conservative.

You must be unaware of the other "controversial" decisions made this season? And the FIA breaking their own rules in order to confect that finish isn't a decision that can go either way. The two ways that decision could go were:

1) Let the lapped cars overtake. The laws state that only when every lapped car has overtaken can the safety car come in. That would've meant a procession to the finish line - Lewis wins by default.
2) Keep the lapped cars. Safety car comes in, Max has one lap on new soft tyres to blow past the lapped cars and see if he can catch Hamilton. Lewis would still have a big advantage, but it would at least be one last effort for Verstappen to try and overtake.

Instead, they threw their own rulebook out the window, and went with:

3) Allow only the lapped cars between Verstappen and Hamilton to overtake, ensuring that Verstappen - on fresh soft tyres - was right by Hamilton when the race started, artificially handing him a huge advantage beyond that allowed by the fortune of the safety car to begin with

Had Hamilton pitted first time he'd have been on fresher tyres. Maybe not enough to keep him ahead, but it would have given him more to defend with than he had. And for as much as I don't like the outcome had they gone the other way it'd have left others unhappy, and I'm just not sold things not happening the way I want them to is the same as something being unfair and/or a farce

When did you expect Hamilton to pit? If he had, and this yellow didn't happen, Mercedes would've just handed the race to Verstappen. Mercedes' handling of the race meant that before the race director decided he wanted to see Verstappen and Hamilton neck-and-neck for the start of the final lap, Hamilton had easily seen off every single thing that Red Bull had tried to do and was winning comfortably.

I don't think you understand what just happened and why it's a farce, but you do you I guess.

I think Hamilton should have pitted when the virtual safety car was announced. He didn't because I assume of the concern Max would have stayed out and enjoyed track position and that Merc had already run the hard tyres in practice. It's a call, it's not one I happen to agree with, in the event it didn't work out and that happens. Given what happened later again perhaps it's a moot point, but that's even wilder conjecture

And yes I happen to agree Max has got away with a bit this year, and I'll agree F1 goes to some dodgy places in the name of money and suffering. Still not sold that makes the entire sport a farce, not even when most races are the triumph of hope over reality as we constantly look on saddened at just how hard it is to follow in F1. And I think it's a bad look to throw your toys out of the pram just because you don't get the outcome you want, but you do you too

[JM2K6]

And yes I happen to agree Max has got away with a bit this year, and I'll agree F1 goes to some dodgy places in the name of money and suffering. Still not sold that makes the entire sport a farce, not even when most races are the triumph of hope over reality as we constantly look on saddened at just how hard it is to follow in F1.

Spa was a farce. Brazil and how it's led to this frankly bonker officiating approach was a farce. The Saudi track is a farce. And we've just seen the championship literally decided by the race director breaking the FIA's own rules in order to concoct a last lap shootout. That's a farce.

And I think it's a bad look to throw your toys out of the pram just because you don't get the outcome you want, but you do you too

They just broke their own laws. It's nothing to do with "the outcome I want". If this had been decided on the track with the same result I'd have been disappointed for Lewis, but I'm angry because they artificially altered the race conditions to manufacture this "dramatic" finish. I'm sorry you can't understand that but I suppose "cars go zoom" is about as good as it gets.

[Random1]

I know pretty much fuck all about F1 (I know what DRS stands for and would be proud of myself if I got it in a pub quiz - that’s the level of my knowledge), so, I’m in your hands here - one thing I’m hearing on the commentary (particularly from Damon hill) is that this year’s adjudications have been much less consistent.

So my question is; do you guys think that since the Americans took over in terms of F1 majority shareholders, this is a reason as to why the ‘drama’ has been prioritised over rule following?

Or is masi just an incompetent?

Edit- stray apostrophe.

[OomStruisbaai]

Great finish.

[Torquemada 1420]

Did Hamilton lose?

[Big D]

So Merc lodges two protests, one claiming Max passed Lewis behind the safety car as Lewis was backing him up.

Second that "Unless clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap." There was no lap.

Hard to see how the FIA can say that rule wasn't broken. As much as I want merc to let it go, I'm not the one with 9 figures invested in this.

[Big D]

I know pretty much fuck all about F1 (I know what DRS stands for and would be proud of myself if I got it in a pub quiz - that’s the level of my knowledge), so, I’m in your hands here - one thing I’m hearing on the commentary (particularly from Damon hill) is that this year’s adjudications have been much less consistent.

So my question is; do you guys think that since the Americans took over in terms of F1 majority shareholders, this is a reason as to why the ‘drama’ has been prioritised over rule following?

Or is masi just an incompetent?

Edit- stray apostrophe.

Humans handle pressure differently. I think two of the three key players handled it well, the 3rd got a bit muddled in his messages across the radio. It happens.

[Torquemada 1420]

So Merc lodges two protests, one claiming Max passed Lewis behind the safety car as Lewis was backing him up.

Second that "Unless clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap." There was no lap.

Hard to see how the FIA can say that rule wasn't broken. As much as I want merc to let it go, I'm not the one with 9 figures invested in this.

F1 long ceased being a sport and is nothing more than a money circus. The only surprising thing these days is the FIA hasn't found a way to keep Ferrari in the game.

[Random1]

I know pretty much fuck all about F1 (I know what DRS stands for and would be proud of myself if I got it in a pub quiz - that’s the level of my knowledge), so, I’m in your hands here - one thing I’m hearing on the commentary (particularly from Damon hill) is that this year’s adjudications have been much less consistent.

So my question is; do you guys think that since the Americans took over in terms of F1 majority shareholders, this is a reason as to why the ‘drama’ has been prioritised over rule following?

Or is masi just an incompetent?

Edit- stray apostrophe.

Humans handle pressure differently. I think two of the three key players handled it well, the 3rd got a bit muddled in his messages across the radio. It happens.

I get that for today; but My point was wider. I’m curious as to whether there’s a trend now that the laws will be interpreted in a way that focusses on entertainment rather than to the letter.

[Insane_Homer]

The team that on 13 Nov tweeted they wanted the title decided on the track, now want it decided by lawyers

[Lobby]

So Merc lodges two protests, one claiming Max passed Lewis behind the safety car as Lewis was backing him up.

Second that "Unless clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap." There was no lap.

Hard to see how the FIA can say that rule wasn't broken. As much as I want merc to let it go, I'm not the one with 9 figures invested in this.

Actually, I think two rules were broken; the regs say:

“If clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE" has been sent to all teams, any cars that have been lapped by leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car."

Masi only let the cars in front of Max overtake the safety car rather than all the lapped cars, and then brought the safety car in a lap early.

[JM2K6]

The team that on 13 Nov tweeted they wanted the title decided on the track, now want it decided by lawyers

Well that's what happens when the officials break the laws to alter the result.

[Thor Sedan]

The team that on 13 Nov tweeted they wanted the title decided on the track, now want it decided by lawyers

Curious though - are you OK with the FIA contradicting their own rules so that they can provide a finish that they think people want - as opposed to the race that the rules demand?

This was a manufacturered result pure and simple.

[Big D]

I know pretty much fuck all about F1 (I know what DRS stands for and would be proud of myself if I got it in a pub quiz - that’s the level of my knowledge), so, I’m in your hands here - one thing I’m hearing on the commentary (particularly from Damon hill) is that this year’s adjudications have been much less consistent.

So my question is; do you guys think that since the Americans took over in terms of F1 majority shareholders, this is a reason as to why the ‘drama’ has been prioritised over rule following?

Or is masi just an incompetent?

Edit- stray apostrophe.

Humans handle pressure differently. I think two of the three key players handled it well, the 3rd got a bit muddled in his messages across the radio. It happens.

I get that for today; but My point was wider. I’m curious as to whether there’s a trend now that the laws will be interpreted in a way that focusses on entertainment rather than to the letter.

I don't think so really. On subjective decisions there will always be inconsistencies.

I do think Masi is incompetent. He should have put the teams back in their boxes as soon as they started whining on the radio earlier in the season. By allowing them to moan on the radio it leaves him open to influence no matter how slight.

[Big D]

I think it is a coin flip as to whether this gets overturned. Not the way we want the season to end and decisions made by team bosses rather than drivers.

[Thor Sedan]

I think it is a coin flip as to whether this gets overturned. Not the way we want the season to end and decisions made by team bosses rather than drivers.

Well the season has been decided by the race officials....so either way it is a shit show.

At the very least Masi should publicly apologise for his handling of the season and resign.

[Lemoentjie]

What a disgrace. How can anyone take this sport seriously when such a thing happens.

I've been saying for years there is quite a simple solution to this:

When a yellow flag is waved, pull all of the drivers into the pits. Don't allow any tire changes. Then do a formation lap to the grid, get them back in the pre-flag order. Then use the dashboards to set the drivers off at the intervals they had when the flag was waved. This is perfectly possible.

I cannot think of a fairer method. Okay there isn't so much 'excitement' but it's fair.

[JM2K6]

I think it is a coin flip as to whether this gets overturned. Not the way we want the season to end and decisions made by team bosses rather than drivers.

I don't know how it can be overturned. Perhaps by ruling that the decision to let the cars overtake was the right one, but should've included all the cars, meaning the race ends on the yellow flag with Lewis in P1? Red Bull would rightly argue that without the cars overtaking, Verstappen had a live shot at Hamilton, but that contradicts what they were saying on the radio.

I'm all for the right decision being reached when teams on the track haven't been officiated correctly, but it's the race director and his officials who are in the dock here. Difficult to see how anything satisfactory comes out of this. Can't stuff that genie back in the bottle. I think it's big enough that Masi should lose his job, but that'll never happen.

[Thor Sedan]

The evil part of me would like it to be overturned just to see Horner burst into flames.

It won't happen.....but my oh my that would be amazing TV.

[Torquemada 1420]

The team that on 13 Nov tweeted they wanted the title decided on the track, now want it decided by lawyers

Well that's what happens when the officials break the laws to alter the result.

FFS. You make it sound like F1 hasn't been like this forever. And it's not like it's just the FIA at it. All the teams are too.

[Big D]

I think it is a coin flip as to whether this gets overturned. Not the way we want the season to end and decisions made by team bosses rather than drivers.

I don't know how it can be overturned. Perhaps by ruling that the decision to let the cars overtake was the right one, but should've included all the cars, meaning the race ends on the yellow flag with Lewis in P1? Red Bull would rightly argue that without the cars overtaking, Verstappen had a live shot at Hamilton, but that contradicts what they were saying on the radio.

I'm all for the right decision being reached when teams on the track haven't been officiated correctly, but it's the race director and his officials who are in the dock here. Difficult to see how anything satisfactory comes out of this. Can't stuff that genie back in the bottle. I think it's big enough that Masi should lose his job, but that'll never happen.

If all cars were let through and the safety car came in as large rules then I think the race would have been over.

[Thor Sedan]

I think it is a coin flip as to whether this gets overturned. Not the way we want the season to end and decisions made by team bosses rather than drivers.

I don't know how it can be overturned. Perhaps by ruling that the decision to let the cars overtake was the right one, but should've included all the cars, meaning the race ends on the yellow flag with Lewis in P1? Red Bull would rightly argue that without the cars overtaking, Verstappen had a live shot at Hamilton, but that contradicts what they were saying on the radio.

I'm all for the right decision being reached when teams on the track haven't been officiated correctly, but it's the race director and his officials who are in the dock here. Difficult to see how anything satisfactory comes out of this. Can't stuff that genie back in the bottle. I think it's big enough that Masi should lose his job, but that'll never happen.

If all cars were let through and the safety car came in as large rules then I think the race would have been over.

Yep - would have finished under a yellow flag - which would have been an anti-climax - but the correct result.

[Insane_Homer]

The team that on 13 Nov tweeted they wanted the title decided on the track, now want it decided by lawyers

Curious though - are you OK with the FIA contradicting their own rules so that they can provide a finish that they think people want - as opposed to the race that the rules demand?

This was a manufacturered result pure and simple.

The whole season has been inconsistently shit as I stated earlier today.

before this everyone wanted the title decided by racing on track, so that's what they tried to do for a huge global audience. vilified either way. Manfucturing a show yes, the result no.

[Thor Sedan]

The team that on 13 Nov tweeted they wanted the title decided on the track, now want it decided by lawyers

Curious though - are you OK with the FIA contradicting their own rules so that they can provide a finish that they think people want - as opposed to the race that the rules demand?

This was a manufacturered result pure and simple.

The whole season has been inconsistently shit as I stated earlier today.

before this everyone wanted the title decided by racing on track, so that's what they tried to do for a huge global audience. vilified either way. Manfucturing a show yes, the result no.

??

I don't follow that logic sorry.

[Insane_Homer]

Curious though - are you OK with the FIA contradicting their own rules so that they can provide a finish that they think people want - as opposed to the race that the rules demand?

This was a manufacturered result pure and simple.

The whole season has been inconsistently shit as I stated earlier today.

before this everyone wanted the title decided by racing on track, so that's what they tried to do for a huge global audience. vilified either way. Manfucturing a show yes, the result no.

??

I don't follow that logic sorry.

I dont follow the logic that the race director made decisions to deliberately install Max as WC.

If that were the obvious case, Lewis would've been asked to give the place back on lap 1, or did he make Latifi crash too?

[JM2K6]

The whole season has been inconsistently shit as I stated earlier today.

before this everyone wanted the title decided by racing on track, so that's what they tried to do for a huge global audience. vilified either way. Manfucturing a show yes, the result no.

??

I don't follow that logic sorry.

I dont follow the logic that the race director made decisions to deliberately install Max as WC.

If that were the obvious case, Lewis would've been asked to give the place back on lap 1, or did he make Latifi crash too?

Eh?

They could have decided, within the rules, to keep the lapped cars which would've given Verstappen a lap in which to go past them and attack Hamilton, an opportunity he never would've had otherwise - be it from the only other legal thing (have them all overtake) or without the safety car having been involved in the first place.

They artificially created a situation where Verstappen was right by Hamilton with one lap to go, with a huge advantage of the fresh soft tyres. That decision handed Max the title. Given they broke their own rules to create this situation, and even an idiot like me understood just how big an advantage Max had been given by the officials, I don't quite understand what you're saying. They broke the rules to make sure Verstappen had the best possible chance to take the title.

Anyway, Quins are on, I'm over it.

[GogLais]

^

So Merc lodges two protests, one claiming Max passed Lewis behind the safety car as Lewis was backing him up.

Second that "Unless clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap." There was no lap.

Hard to see how the FIA can say that rule wasn't broken. As much as I want merc to let it go, I'm not the one with 9 figures invested in this.

I wonder if there's a scenario where RB keep the title because them's the rules but MB go to court against someone and win a compensation claim. Too far fetched?

[Kawazaki]

I know pretty much fuck all about F1 (I know what DRS stands for and would be proud of myself if I got it in a pub quiz - that’s the level of my knowledge), so, I’m in your hands here - one thing I’m hearing on the commentary (particularly from Damon hill) is that this year’s adjudications have been much less consistent.

So my question is; do you guys think that since the Americans took over in terms of F1 majority shareholders, this is a reason as to why the ‘drama’ has been prioritised over rule following?

Or is masi just an incompetent?

Edit- stray apostrophe.

Liberty own the commercial rights to F1, they don't own the FIA. Masi works for the FIA who are the governing body who oversee Motorsport including F1. Much like World Rugby oversee the RWC or FIFA the football world cup.

Masi is a living breathing example of the Peter Principle. He was fine as Charlie Whitings number two.