NPR

This year is done and dusted.

Pretty sure we would have at least beat the Wallabies (100%) and All Blacks at home if it was a normal year.

Moving forward the real test will come next year with tests against Ireland and specially France.

That will be a great trial run for the WC.

No Christmas break, bring on the URC.

boere wors wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:07 am

assfly wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:34 am Definitely a weird year, in retrospect. All things considered, I think it's been a good one. But I'm also glad that it's behind us, and hope that the next time we see the Boks play it's in a full stadium in SA.

The good:

Our forward pack, even with key injuries, is still world class. Really enjoyed the Ox/Bongi/Trevor and Kitsoff/Marx/Koch dynamic. It's ludircous to think we've probably got the two best front rows in the world in one team.
Great to see Kolisi hit such good form, really looking forward to him carrying the team forward to 2021
DDA and Am are arguable the best centre combination we've ever had.
Something that doesn't get mentioned enough is how good our discipline has been all year. Only a couple of cards, and generally our penalty count has been low all year. Such a contrast to years gone by.
Considering what the players went through since June, I think they've performed exceptionally well.


The bad:

I don't think we've really built much depth to this team. Players like Kwagga, Wiese, Kriel just felt like stop gaps; they did well enough but not to push for starting spots.
9/10 is a real problem for us. I think Pollard got a free ride all year when EJ probably should have had much more game time.
Our gameplan is going to have to evolve at some point. Especially when we come up against teams like England who can field our kicks.

The ugly:

Whether you think he's right or wrong, Rassie has done some damage to the Springbok brand.

Good post! Nothing to argue there.

Not the Rassie bit. Thats kak.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:10 am

boere wors wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:07 am

assfly wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:34 am
Whether you think he's right or wrong, Rassie has done some damage to the Springbok brand.

Good post! Nothing to argue there.

Not the Rassie bit. Thats kak.

Nah Boet, it certainly has damaged his reputation and thus the Springboks'.

boere wors wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:29 am

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:10 am

boere wors wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:07 am

Good post! Nothing to argue there.

Not the Rassie bit. Thats kak.

Nah Boet, it certainly has damaged his reputation and thus the Springboks'.

Kak man. You obvious dont know Rassie. He has been like this since he started coaching at the Vrystaat using light at top of the stadium. I,ll rather have a coach living on the edge, showing his passion for the team, leading iso following the others. This is the way of Rassie and Eddie Jones. Like it or ship out like Piet Snor/Foster ext.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:10 am Not the Rassie bit. Thats kak.

That's why I said "like it or not".

It's not up to us as Bok fans to judge. Just read what people are saying about him, and the Boks and their fans by extension. He's getting taken apart by the international media. That is brand damage and it's undone a lot of the goodwill that came out of the 2019 RWC.

For me, this International season has been exhausting. Coming into the year, I had 2 wishes. 1 - Win the BIL series, 2 - Beat the All Blacks in at least 1 test.

So, from that I'm fairly happy. I would have liked to see a few more players given a chance and perhaps show a bit more attacking play.

There's been a lot of drama around the Boks, I'm a bit over that, so very keen to follow the Saffer teams in the URC.

handyman wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:27 am For me, this International season has been exhausting. Coming into the year, I had 2 wishes. 1 - Win the BIL series, 2 - Beat the All Blacks in at least 1 test.

So, from that I'm fairly happy. I would have liked to see a few more players given a chance and perhaps show a bit more attacking play.

There's been a lot of drama around the Boks, I'm a bit over that, so very keen to follow the Saffer teams in the URC.

I think that's an understatement. It's been dreadful, let's be honest.

Lemoentjie wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:33 am

handyman wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:27 am For me, this International season has been exhausting. Coming into the year, I had 2 wishes. 1 - Win the BIL series, 2 - Beat the All Blacks in at least 1 test.

So, from that I'm fairly happy. I would have liked to see a few more players given a chance and perhaps show a bit more attacking play.

There's been a lot of drama around the Boks, I'm a bit over that, so very keen to follow the Saffer teams in the URC.

I think that's an understatement. It's been dreadful, let's be honest.

And if you think about it, at the start of Rassie's tenure, we scored some great tries.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:00 am

boere wors wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:29 am

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:10 am

Not the Rassie bit. Thats kak.

Nah Boet, it certainly has damaged his reputation and thus the Springboks'.

Kak man. You obvious dont know Rassie. He has been like this since he started coaching at the Vrystaat using light at top of the stadium. I,ll rather have a coach living on the edge, showing his passion for the team, leading iso following the others. This is the way of Rassie and Eddie Jones. Like it or ship out like Piet Snor/Foster ext.

See Assfly's reply, says it all. You might like it, but everybody else in the world sees it differently.

Just for some perspective. Our win against the All Blacks must be taken in context of the losses the All Blacks have had against Ireland and France. This is definitely not an unbeatable and great All Blacks team.

We definitely got the easiest draw on the EOYT

assfly wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:34 am Definitely a weird year, in retrospect. All things considered, I think it's been a good one. But I'm also glad that it's behind us, and hope that the next time we see the Boks play it's in a full stadium in SA.

The good:

Our forward pack, even with key injuries, is still world class. Really enjoyed the Ox/Bongi/Trevor and Kitsoff/Marx/Koch dynamic. It's ludircous to think we've probably got the two best front rows in the world in one team.
Great to see Kolisi hit such good form, really looking forward to him carrying the team forward to 2021
DDA and Am are arguable the best centre combination we've ever had.
Something that doesn't get mentioned enough is how good our discipline has been all year. Only a couple of cards, and generally our penalty count has been low all year. Such a contrast to years gone by.
Considering what the players went through since June, I think they've performed exceptionally well.


The bad:

I don't think we've really built much depth to this team. Players like Kwagga, Wiese, Kriel just felt like stop gaps; they did well enough but not to push for starting spots.
9/10 is a real problem for us. I think Pollard got a free ride all year when EJ probably should have had much more game time.
Our gameplan is going to have to evolve at some point. Especially when we come up against teams like England who can field our kicks.

The ugly:

Whether you think he's right or wrong, Rassie has done some damage to the Springbok brand.

Spot on.

Been a tough first year for Nienaber, and he's done okay I think.

Didn't really have the opportunity in 2020 to build on the momentum of 2019. He had players with very fractured seasons heading into the Lions series, and a lot of effort and energy went into just making sure the the series actually happened, and coordinating the logistics and negotiating the availability of the players from their overseas clubs. The lack of quality gametime for local based players also made it very challenging to scout for new talent and build some depth. I'm sure after a season of URC that will go better next year.

I think the core of the squad will still be available for the next RWC...in fact, I think most will be hitting their prime.
But Nienaber will have a massive challenge in 2022 and 2023. We have a bunch of old heads that are going to be on last legs heading into 2023.
Frans and Duane are unlikely to last until then, and we are going to need to fill their shoes soon. 2021 proved how influential they are to the team.
Post 2023 is also a concern. Unless we start building a ton of depth in the next 2 years there is going to be a massive drop off in 2024 when you look at how old players will be for RWC France in 2023:

Duane Vermeulen (37 in 2023)
Francois Steyn (36 in 2023)
Trevor Nyakane (34 in 2023)
Willie le Roux (34 in 2023)
Cobus Reinach (33 in 2023)
Makazole Mapimpi (33 in 2023)
Vincent Koch (33 in 2023)
Elton Jantjies (33 in 2023)
Faf de Klerk (33 in 2023)
Bongi Mbonambi (32 in 2023)
Eben Etzebeth (32 in 2023)
Frans Malherbe (32 in 2023)
Siya Kolisi (32 in 2023)
Franco Mostert (32 in 2023)
Damian de Allende (31 in 2023)
Steven Kitshoff (31 in 2023)
Lood de Jager (30 in 2023)
Kwagga Smith (30 in 2023)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (30 in 2023)
Marvin Orie (30 in 2023)
Handré Pollard (29 in 2023)
Lukhanyo Am (29 in 2023)
Jesse Kriel (29 in 2023)
Cheslin Kolbe (29 in 2023)
Malcolm Marx (29 in 2023)
Ox Nche (28 in 2023)
RG Snyman (28 in 2023)
Jasper Wiese (28 in 2023)
Warrick Gelant (28 in 2023)
Herschel Jantjies (27 in 2023)
S'bu Nkosi (27 in 2023)
Marco van Staden (27 in 2023)
Aphelele Fassi (25 in 2023)

boere wors wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:41 am

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:00 am

boere wors wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:29 am
Nah Boet, it certainly has damaged his reputation and thus the Springboks'.

Kak man. You obvious dont know Rassie. He has been like this since he started coaching at the Vrystaat using light at top of the stadium. I,ll rather have a coach living on the edge, showing his passion for the team, leading iso following the others. This is the way of Rassie and Eddie Jones. Like it or ship out like Piet Snor/Foster ext.

See Assfly's reply, says it all. You might like it, but everybody else in the world sees it differently.

Well said. And he certainly never acted that way when he was at Munster!

assfly wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:34 am Our forward pack, even with key injuries, is still world class. Really enjoyed the Ox/Bongi/Trevor and Kitsoff/Marx/Koch dynamic. It's ludircous to think we've probably got the two best front rows in the world in one team.

That's a big call. I take it you mean as a unit? I actually think your sub front row is the best scrummaging unit in the world but not buying Nche/Mbonambi/Nyakane.

Also, there are other aspects to front row play beyond scrummaging!

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:41 pm That's a big call. I take it you mean as a unit? I actually think your sub front row is the best scrummaging unit in the world but not buying Nche/Mbonambi/Nyakane.

Also, there are other aspects to front row play beyond scrummaging!

I think Trevor was a bit unlucky on Saturday, as was Bongi with his lineouts. But overall they've been outstanding. I think Ox is one of the most exciting props in the world at the moment, his play around the park is outstanding.

assfly wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:45 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:41 pm That's a big call. I take it you mean as a unit? I actually think your sub front row is the best scrummaging unit in the world but not buying Nche/Mbonambi/Nyakane.

Also, there are other aspects to front row play beyond scrummaging!

I think Trevor was a bit unlucky on Saturday, as was Bongi with his lineouts. But overall they've been outstanding. I think Ox is one of the most exciting props in the world at the moment, his play around the park is outstanding.

Bongi has a history with unreliable throwing? I'm sure I remember Sandstorm having kittens over this in the past in a Soup game (I know: small sample size). With Eben in your lineout, you probably should never lose a throw!

Sinckler had a laugh at Ox.but not for long.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:55 pm

assfly wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:45 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:41 pm That's a big call. I take it you mean as a unit? I actually think your sub front row is the best scrummaging unit in the world but not buying Nche/Mbonambi/Nyakane.

Also, there are other aspects to front row play beyond scrummaging!

I think Trevor was a bit unlucky on Saturday, as was Bongi with his lineouts. But overall they've been outstanding. I think Ox is one of the most exciting props in the world at the moment, his play around the park is outstanding.

Bongi has a history with unreliable throwing? I'm sure I remember Sandstorm having kittens over this in the past in a Soup game (I know: small sample size). With Eben in your lineout, you probably should never lose a throw!

Yup. Bongi couldn't hit a barn door for Stormers recently. He's been better for the Boks this tour, but still not good enough. And his indecision (especially against Scotland) at the back of the maul is infuriating.

Sandstorm wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:33 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:55 pm

assfly wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:45 pm

I think Trevor was a bit unlucky on Saturday, as was Bongi with his lineouts. But overall they've been outstanding. I think Ox is one of the most exciting props in the world at the moment, his play around the park is outstanding.

Bongi has a history with unreliable throwing? I'm sure I remember Sandstorm having kittens over this in the past in a Soup game (I know: small sample size). With Eben in your lineout, you probably should never lose a throw!

Yup. Bongi couldn't hit a barn door for Stormers recently. He's been better for the Boks this tour, but still not good enough. And his indecision (especially against Scotland) at the back of the maul is infuriating.

Sharks will sort him out like they did Notsche and Kolisi

Sards wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:12 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:33 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:55 pm

Bongi has a history with unreliable throwing? I'm sure I remember Sandstorm having kittens over this in the past in a Soup game (I know: small sample size). With Eben in your lineout, you probably should never lose a throw!

Yup. Bongi couldn't hit a barn door for Stormers recently. He's been better for the Boks this tour, but still not good enough. And his indecision (especially against Scotland) at the back of the maul is infuriating.

Sharks will sort him out like they did Notsche and Kolisi

Kolisi cost us the test yesterday with that yellow. Sharks sort him out tackling in the air.

Forwards were immense. Backs with ball in hand (except Willie) were productive and penetrative but are starved from too many attacking opportunities. Running the ball out wide proves fruitful quite often but was way to rare.

The kick from base is a good tactic but overused.

I think our fundamental issue with regards to tactics is that we have a awesome set piece base, the lineouts and scrums have been dominant yet we seem to completely averse to giving the backs first phase ball to run with.
Under Jake White in 2007 WC he surprised everyone when we scored some brilliant tries from set piece first phase moves. We're under utilising an awesome platform. Particularly in the mid-field (from our 40 to their 22) from clean ball we should be doing it 2-3 times a game and then continue with the once inside the 22 use the phased play to pressure & draw a pen advantage before throwing the riskier flat passes. (just exclude Willie and his kak passes).

I suspect it was an Eddie idea because...

England had the balls to try it on Saturday, particularly after being under so much sustained pressure (dismiss the natural urge to try and hang on to the ball and build phased momentum) and won the game from just that, a rehearsed practice ground move from first phase lineout ball inside their own half.

Bottom line. The loss to England is a huge blow. Bigger than the losses to Australia. There is no hiding from the fact that it became about Rassie , and our Springboks were going to destroy England to exonerate Rassie...even if he serves out his punishment . At the same time it was going to move the coaching crew into an unassailable position to justify their faith in selections and give them complete control going forward. The boks were gee-ed up and pumped to destroy the English and bully them into submission. This was about the number 1 team in the world and RWC holders asserting their dominance of the NH.

Our boys threw everything into it. And failed. England are now the hereos that stood up to the school yard bully and gave him a bloody nose, the young guns taught the toppies a big lessons. Suddenly there are serious questions being asked of the coaches and Rassie has Mallet and Schalk saying that he was wrong. Our reputation is in tatters. Our bullies in the forwards couldn't destroy the English forwards as anticipated. Our backline had absolutely nothing to offer bar being tackle bags .

We were completely outsmarted. Brains over brawn. Our team is returning with their tails between their legs no matter how the press spins it.

Enjoy the victory England. See you soon.

For the South Africans we have a huge positive to take out of the weekend. The ABs lost too. So we kept number 1

boere wors wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:29 am

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:10 am

boere wors wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:07 am

Good post! Nothing to argue there.

Not the Rassie bit. Thats kak.

Nah Boet, it certainly has damaged his reputation and thus the Springboks'.

Mallet and Schalk have confirmed that he was wrong ....