NPR

I like neeps wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:36 am

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:55 pm Top of the group mind you. We got to the final of the euros after a similarly soporific draw against Scotland, and it's not like we lost to Iran or Japan or something.

We seem a worse team than the last two tournaments and I'd really like it if Harry Kane's shit twin would stop turning up at major tournaments. England really missed James on the right and Foden will probably spend too much time kicking his heels. Fuck knows what Jordan Henderson is supposed to bring to the party at this stage as well.

I'd say England are better than the last two tournaments. World cup 2018 they didn't beat anyone half decent and were ultimately poor Vs Croatia, Belgium and Colombia. I think people remember them as good because they were young and lacking expectations so it was fun. The Euros they were far too defence focused which kind of works but at international level teams often underperform their xG as they don't have time to work on patterns in attack and individual brilliant strikers are lacking at this level. Let Saka, Rashford, Foden, Grealish, Sterling run at people rather than have 5 at the back and Rice/Phillips in midfield. If you think about the Italy and Croatia games they attacked and scored early then sat back and allowed elite midfielders on the other team to control the game and the more focus that is on defending the more your weak defence are involved and the more chances are there for them to make mistakes which they will eventually. Vs France for instance you can't play on a defensive masterclass Vs Mbappe you have to plan on stressing France"s weak midfield and fullbacks - I also think Upamecano is a bit suspect at best so there's goals to be scored there too. Win a 3-2 rather than lose a 2-1 by playing 8 defensive players. I'd be quietly confident in the "we have better attacker's than you" strategy but Kane does need to pick it up.

I like neeps wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:27 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:12 am

I like neeps wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:36 am

I'd say England are better than the last two tournaments. World cup 2018 they didn't beat anyone half decent and were ultimately poor Vs Croatia, Belgium and Colombia. I think people remember them as good because they were young and lacking expectations so it was fun. The Euros they were far too defence focused which kind of works but at international level teams often underperform their xG as they don't have time to work on patterns in attack and individual brilliant strikers are lacking at this level. Let Saka, Rashford, Foden, Grealish, Sterling run at people rather than have 5 at the back and Rice/Phillips in midfield. If you think about the Italy and Croatia games they attacked and scored early then sat back and allowed elite midfielders on the other team to control the game and the more focus that is on defending the more your weak defence are involved and the more chances are there for them to make mistakes which they will eventually. Vs France for instance you can't play on a defensive masterclass Vs Mbappe you have to plan on stressing France"s weak midfield and fullbacks - I also think Upamecano is a bit suspect at best so there's goals to be scored there too. Win a 3-2 rather than lose a 2-1 by playing 8 defensive players. I'd be quietly confident in the "we have better attacker's than you" strategy but Kane does need to pick it up.

England were better organised at WC2018 and people underrate any team England beats at football. The half decent teams were the ones that got to the knockout stages. What you really mean is we didn't beat any of the recognised major teams in a run of form. Which is fair, but ultimately irrelevant.

So we comfortably beat Sweden (who thumped Germany and beat South Korea), beat Colombia on pens (a huge problem for England - and given the reaction to Italy beating us on pens it means we were far superior to them), lost in extra time against Croatia who were worthy finalists (remember they absolutely thumped Argentina in the groups.) Yeah, we lost to Belgium. They beat Brazil, who beat Mexico, etc.

That's just international football these days. It's much closer and anyone can lose to anyone. It's great, frankly. Especially as we do still get the one or two outstanding teams at every tournament. These teams don't get to the business end of the tournament by accident, England included.

No, it's because England didn't beat anyone good. Sweden weren't good, doesn't matter they beat Germany's worst ever world cup side or South Korea who also aren't good. Look at the lineup Sweden put out ffs it was awful! A load of has beens who had never been.

I didn't say England got there by accident and they won't when they go far this year either. It's just to beat teams they should be beating (Croatia, Italy) they should attack rather than have 10 men behind the ball as their strength is the attack and not the defence.

Sweden weren't good, doesn't matter they beat Germany's worst ever world cup side or South Korea who also aren't good. Look at the lineup Sweden put out ffs it was awful! A load of has beens who had never been.

tc27 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:53 pm Agree with JM in that football is very competitive at international level.

I do not pretend to know much about it as a sport, but it has always struck me that upsets are much more common because it's easier to defend a narrow lead.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:31 am

I like neeps wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:27 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:12 am

England were better organised at WC2018 and people underrate any team England beats at football. The half decent teams were the ones that got to the knockout stages. What you really mean is we didn't beat any of the recognised major teams in a run of form. Which is fair, but ultimately irrelevant.

So we comfortably beat Sweden (who thumped Germany and beat South Korea), beat Colombia on pens (a huge problem for England - and given the reaction to Italy beating us on pens it means we were far superior to them), lost in extra time against Croatia who were worthy finalists (remember they absolutely thumped Argentina in the groups.) Yeah, we lost to Belgium. They beat Brazil, who beat Mexico, etc.

That's just international football these days. It's much closer and anyone can lose to anyone. It's great, frankly. Especially as we do still get the one or two outstanding teams at every tournament. These teams don't get to the business end of the tournament by accident, England included.

No, it's because England didn't beat anyone good. Sweden weren't good, doesn't matter they beat Germany's worst ever world cup side or South Korea who also aren't good. Look at the lineup Sweden put out ffs it was awful! A load of has beens who had never been.

I didn't say England got there by accident and they won't when they go far this year either. It's just to beat teams they should be beating (Croatia, Italy) they should attack rather than have 10 men behind the ball as their strength is the attack and not the defence.

Why should they be beating those sides? Italy are the European champions and England pushed them all the way.

FFS, Italy in Euro 2020:

Thrashed Turkey 3-0
Thrashed Switzerland 3-0
Beat Wales 1-0
Beat Austria 2-1 (AET)
Beat everyone's favourites Belgium 2-1
Beat everyone's second favourites Spain on pens
Beat England on pens

there is no sane way to say that England should be beating Italy. They could have beaten Italy, but Italy were fantastic in that tournament. There's no "should" there, especially given Italy's tournament pedigree.

Same story with England's run in Euro 2020. One poor game v Scotland - which they drew - but they beat teams they'd normally lose to (Croatia, who took Spain to extra time and had beaten England to make the final 2 years earlier; Czech Republic, who thrashed the Dutch), thumped Germany, smashed Ukraine, beat Denmark AET and then lost on pens in the final.

Their only problem is that other teams beat the ones that presumably you would call good, though if England had beaten them they'd be magically downgraded to bad I'm sure. Again, these sides rarely fluke these wins. I doubt anyone slags off the Danes for losing to England in the semis after extra time.

Sweden weren't good, doesn't matter they beat Germany's worst ever world cup side or South Korea who also aren't good. Look at the lineup Sweden put out ffs it was awful! A load of has beens who had never been.

Who gives a shit about the lineup? How did they play?

2018, Sweden:

Group winners in a difficult group (Mexico, South Korea, Germany) where they lost to Germany but thumped Mexico
Beat Swizterland in the ro16 who had been unbeaten in the group stage
Lost to England in the qf

2020, Sweden:

Group winners in a difficult group (Spain, Slovakia, Poland)
Lost to Ukraine in the ro16 (a bad result)

So two tournaments in a row they won their group, and both times those groups were much harder than England's group in this world cup. Maybe in hindsight they were actually pretty good and worthy of some praise?

tc27 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:53 pm Agree with JM in that football is very competitive at international level.

I do not pretend to know much about it as a sport, but it has always struck me that upsets are much more common because it's easier to defend a narrow lead.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:23 am

tc27 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:53 pm Agree with JM in that football is very competitive at international level.

I do not pretend to know much about it as a sport, but it has always struck me that upsets are much more common because it's easier to defend a narrow lead.

Scrums and mauls kill off minnows in rugby, it is easier to not run out of gas in football.

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:56 pm Torq, it is barely a year or two since everyone was bemoaning the inability of teams to defend at international and top club level.

I like neeps wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:32 am I remember when Germany won it and everyone wet the bed about how they got football right and were going to piss international football forever. And now, 2 group stage exits in a row, their international team is just bad and their league is the biggest one horse race in Europe and a total joke. Life comes at you fast.

boere wors wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:59 am

I like neeps wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:32 am I remember when Germany won it and everyone wet the bed about how they got football right and were going to piss international football forever. And now, 2 group stage exits in a row, their international team is just bad and their league is the biggest one horse race in Europe and a total joke. Life comes at you fast.

After the 1990 win, beckenbauer, who was then the successfull coach , said that the German team would be unbeatable for years to come (sic). Mainly due to the reunification and the inceased resources of players. Turned out they crushed out in 1994 in the quarters after a dull campaign with not one single player from the ex GDR in the starting lineup. Only 2 in the whole squad.
2014 was different, a settled team which has been building since 2006, finally had their swan song. After that it went downhill. Coach should have quit. They fell in the same trap as many teams that have won the world cup. All the passion and will is gone and they crush out early.
Hence I always say, start new after a world cup win, clear out players and coach, the winners won’t get you anywhere. The All Blacks 2011-2015 are the absolut exemption to that, makes their title defend even more so impressive. But admittedly, they were a team of goats.

I like neeps wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:37 am

boere wors wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:59 am

I like neeps wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:32 am I remember when Germany won it and everyone wet the bed about how they got football right and were going to piss international football forever. And now, 2 group stage exits in a row, their international team is just bad and their league is the biggest one horse race in Europe and a total joke. Life comes at you fast.

After the 1990 win, beckenbauer, who was then the successfull coach , said that the German team would be unbeatable for years to come (sic). Mainly due to the reunification and the inceased resources of players. Turned out they crushed out in 1994 in the quarters after a dull campaign with not one single player from the ex GDR in the starting lineup. Only 2 in the whole squad.
2014 was different, a settled team which has been building since 2006, finally had their swan song. After that it went downhill. Coach should have quit. They fell in the same trap as many teams that have won the world cup. All the passion and will is gone and they crush out early.
Hence I always say, start new after a world cup win, clear out players and coach, the winners won’t get you anywhere. The All Blacks 2011-2015 are the absolut exemption to that, makes their title defend even more so impressive. But admittedly, they were a team of goats.

They did have a clear out mostly after the last WC, the squad they took to this world cup is quite young and inexperienced. They just have a dreadful domestic league and so can't develop anyone.

I like neeps wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:37 am

boere wors wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:59 am

I like neeps wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:32 am I remember when Germany won it and everyone wet the bed about how they got football right and were going to piss international football forever. And now, 2 group stage exits in a row, their international team is just bad and their league is the biggest one horse race in Europe and a total joke. Life comes at you fast.

After the 1990 win, beckenbauer, who was then the successfull coach , said that the German team would be unbeatable for years to come (sic). Mainly due to the reunification and the inceased resources of players. Turned out they crushed out in 1994 in the quarters after a dull campaign with not one single player from the ex GDR in the starting lineup. Only 2 in the whole squad.
2014 was different, a settled team which has been building since 2006, finally had their swan song. After that it went downhill. Coach should have quit. They fell in the same trap as many teams that have won the world cup. All the passion and will is gone and they crush out early.
Hence I always say, start new after a world cup win, clear out players and coach, the winners won’t get you anywhere. The All Blacks 2011-2015 are the absolut exemption to that, makes their title defend even more so impressive. But admittedly, they were a team of goats.

They did have a clear out mostly after the last WC, the squad they took to this world cup is quite young and inexperienced. They just have a dreadful domestic league and so can't develop anyone.

Insane_Homer wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:05 pm HA HA, Wonderful! Suarez and his bunch of cunts are out. Good riddance.

Slick wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:18 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:05 pm HA HA, Wonderful! Suarez and his bunch of cunts are out. Good riddance.

What was all that nonsense about at the end? Just caught the last of it

Do Ghana go through?

Insane_Homer wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:05 pm HA HA, Wonderful! Suarez and his bunch of cunts are out. Good riddance.

Slick wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:18 pm What was all that nonsense about at the end? Just caught the last of it

Gumboot wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:49 am

Insane_Homer wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:05 pm HA HA, Wonderful! Suarez and his bunch of cunts are out. Good riddance.

Oh dear how sad never mind.

Bye Chewy Luis, ya filthy cheating cunt.

Biffer wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:49 pm Looks like the last two World Cups are proving Europe is still the dominant force in football, regardless of what anyone else might say. Looks like 9 of the last 16 will be European teams, after 10 of them in 2018. A lot of people thought there'd been some kind of permanent change after Europe only had 6 representatives in that round in 2010 and 2014, but it seems the old order has been re-established (although it was still an all European final in 2010 and Germany won it in 2014).

Biffer wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:49 pm Looks like the last two World Cups are proving Europe is still the dominant force in football, regardless of what anyone else might say. Looks like 9 of the last 16 will be European teams, after 10 of them in 2018. A lot of people thought there'd been some kind of permanent change after Europe only had 6 representatives in that round in 2010 and 2014, but it seems the old order has been re-established (although it was still an all European final in 2010 and Germany won it in 2014).

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:34 pm
Remind me how many countries there are in Europe v South America? Until the Millennium, when money in Europe really sucked all the best players from around the world, no European side had won a WC outside of Europe (and still only Spain has in SA) and the South Americans has won more tournies in total. So, not sure what old order has been RE-established.

Biffer wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:15 pm Only one South American team has ever won in europe, same as only one European team has ever won in the Americas.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:21 pm

Biffer wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:15 pm Only one South American team has ever won in europe, same as only one European team has ever won in the Americas.

I see you distorted the point. Only 2 European sides has ever won off own continent: as per above, Spain in SA and the Krauts in Braz. South American sides have done it 5 times.

There is no return to an old order because SAm sides dominated until 2000 by the only metric that matters: winners.

Biffer wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:53 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:21 pm

Biffer wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:15 pm Only one South American team has ever won in europe, same as only one European team has ever won in the Americas.

I see you distorted the point. Only 2 European sides has ever won off own continent: as per above, Spain in SA and the Krauts in Braz. South American sides have done it 5 times.

There is no return to an old order because SAm sides dominated until 2000 by the only metric that matters: winners.

Europe provides the meat of the competition, both in terms of money and football. That’s undeniable.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:04 pm

Biffer wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:53 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:21 pm

I see you distorted the point. Only 2 European sides has ever won off own continent: as per above, Spain in SA and the Krauts in Braz. South American sides have done it 5 times.

There is no return to an old order because SAm sides dominated until 2000 by the only metric that matters: winners.

Europe provides the meat of the competition, both in terms of money and football. That’s undeniable.

Not disputing either:
a) There are wayyy more European sides.
b) And it's the money that has tilted the balance with so many players from other nations in Europe. It both damages the local leagues and damages the exiled players: because they all become conditioned to Euro bore fest styles (post the 70s, only the Netherlands has played any likeable football).

Enzedder wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:29 am Doesn't Europe have the votes to make things more "fair"? Or does the voting go down to regions? (From memory it does because I recall Charlie Dempsey abstaining and costing the Saffers a cup about 4 or 8 years earlier than they got it.)

EnergiseR2 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:04 am I think I know partly what is wrong with Germany these days. When I was living here 30 years ago it had a distinct identity. Taciturn but friendly. Popular stuff with the old people was along the lines of Val Doonican type stuff. Lots of cream polo necks and mullet vibes. Arrived here and turned on the telly and what's on? First Dates the German one called First Dates. Not Erste Dates just First Dates. Turned over and it was the Great German Bake off. In a tent with the exact same design. Turned over and it was some dubbed British thing with some Corrie alumni. The Tories really fucked up. They had already won