NPR

Slick wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:21 am

Raggs wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:11 am

Slick wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:07 am Am I going mad, or did Fiji not just beat England at Twickenham reasonably convincingly?

Warmups are not rwc games. We're still looking pretty dire, but our fitness seems to be greatly improved, and in turn our ability to keep defending quite well. I'd reckon us slight favourites in a re-match at the moment.

I'd agree actually, just picking up that some of the comments didn't seem to notice that game.

Fair enough. Anyone who hasn't noticed Fiji getting stronger and stronger in past seasons hasn't been paying attention.

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:02 am

petej wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:07 am

_Os_ wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:24 pm
I had a conversation with an England fan once who was convinced that Youngs was the best scrumhalf, I thought he meant the best in England currently and replied "surely there's someone else?", to which he replied no he was in fact the GOAT. I suggested maybe Gareth Davies was better, which he argued not realising I was taking the piss.

Years later I still don't know who England have at 9, but they should get rid of Youngs the goat (not an acronym) and probably not let Farrell get the 10 jersey back.

England are interesting because if they win Pool D it's the best route to a semi final. Their strengths match the weaknesses of Fiji (I'm guessing Fiji comes second with Wales winning Pool C). If it's Fiji then Wales have already shown the way, dogged defence and making 250+ tackles then wait for Fiji's errors, a repeat of England's match against the Pumas. Knocking Fiji out should please the neutrals. Hilariously England have a much stronger shot of a semi final than any of France/ABs/Boks/Ireland/Scotland do individually. Fuck me it'll be hard to take Youngs the goat, in a semi final and another game after that (3rd place or final) if the Boks go out.

9s Mitchell, van poortfliet, quirke, randall and probably some others but i dont watch as much rugby as i used to. There were a couple of moments yesterday where it semi opened up for Youngs and 10 years ago he would be away. I like Youngs and actually found it quite sad that we are getting to the point where we cant remember him being dangerous with the ball in hand which kept opposition defences busy.

For all Care's failings he's a genuine attacking threat still. Youngs is a carthorse with bad basics.

Care is a beneficiary from not spending as much time in the England squad. Less time with Eddie telling him to kick it relentlessly, playing less games and less Eddie England training/breaking players. Care isn't the attacking threat he was.

Slick wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:20 am

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:10 am

Slick wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:07 am Am I going mad, or did Fiji not just beat England at Twickenham reasonably convincingly?

Yes. Don't interrupt Os when he's doing his thing, but no England fan would be confident of beating Fiji. If Fiji can hold onto the ball they'll run us ragged and they're a more powerful team overall. If we kept feeding them with our kicking game we'd just see a repeat.

Yes, not sure if the Oracle had picked up on that. I do think that was a particular low mind you, I'd be a bit more confident this time.

Fiji have lost their 10 since they played England who is highly rated.

petej wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:30 am

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:02 am

petej wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:07 am
9s Mitchell, van poortfliet, quirke, randall and probably some others but i dont watch as much rugby as i used to. There were a couple of moments yesterday where it semi opened up for Youngs and 10 years ago he would be away. I like Youngs and actually found it quite sad that we are getting to the point where we cant remember him being dangerous with the ball in hand which kept opposition defences busy.

For all Care's failings he's a genuine attacking threat still. Youngs is a carthorse with bad basics.

Care is a beneficiary from not spending as much time in the England squad. Less time with Eddie telling him to kick it relentlessly, playing less games and less Eddie England training/breaking players. Care isn't the attacking threat he was.

It's not important but I don't agree - Care is still maintaining a relentless pace for tries and assists late in his career. He hasn't lost it. His problem at international level is not a degradation of athletic ability, nor is it even his kicking game (which at this point is the best of the 3 in the squad!) but it's his decision making and his desire to slow the game down when he is personally unsure what to do next.

His sustained performances at club level piss all over most of the 9s except for Mitchell.

petej wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:32 am

Slick wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:20 am

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:10 am

Yes. Don't interrupt Os when he's doing his thing, but no England fan would be confident of beating Fiji. If Fiji can hold onto the ball they'll run us ragged and they're a more powerful team overall. If we kept feeding them with our kicking game we'd just see a repeat.

Yes, not sure if the Oracle had picked up on that. I do think that was a particular low mind you, I'd be a bit more confident this time.

Fiji have lost their 10 since they played England who is highly rated.

Kinda the other way around. Muntz is a passable FH at intl who does all the basics okay, including kicking. That makes him light years ahead of any other option Fiji had: hence why his loss is the most significant to any team in the comp.

I can't recall them having one since Nicky Little.

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:41 am His sustained performances at club level piss all over most of the 9s except for Mitchell.

And Care can tackle below head height.

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:41 am

petej wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:30 am Care is a beneficiary from not spending as much time in the England squad. Less time with Eddie telling him to kick it relentlessly, playing less games and less Eddie England training/breaking players. Care isn't the attacking threat he was.

It's not important but I don't agree - Care is still maintaining a relentless pace for tries and assists late in his career. He hasn't lost it. His problem at international level is not a degradation of athletic ability, nor is it even his kicking game (which at this point is the best of the 3 in the squad!) but it's his decision making and his desire to slow the game down when he is personally unsure what to do next.

His sustained performances at club level piss all over most of the 9s except for Mitchell.

At club level if Care say had spent the last few years playing in a Borthwick coached team and a Jones coached england team would he be maintaining that relentless pace for tries and assists (or retired after having all joy the sucked of out of playing)?

Slick wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:20 am

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:10 am

Slick wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:07 am Am I going mad, or did Fiji not just beat England at Twickenham reasonably convincingly?

Yes. Don't interrupt Os when he's doing his thing, but no England fan would be confident of beating Fiji. If Fiji can hold onto the ball they'll run us ragged and they're a more powerful team overall. If we kept feeding them with our kicking game we'd just see a repeat.

Yes, not sure if the Oracle had picked up on that. I do think that was a particular low mind you, I'd be a bit more confident this time.

Oracle Ox says: Against Wales the territory stats were massively in favour of Fiji but against the Wallabies they were not and it was a small advantage to the Wallabies. The Fijian lineout isn't strong, against Wales it did well, but against the Wallabies 16/16 were won by the Wallabies on Aus throws and 17/23 by Fiji on Fijian throws. Itoje and Lawes on their own should be more than Fiji can deal with. The first strategy for England is to kick to the stands whenever they're in their own half, that'll give England territory and a decent chance of possession. The Wallabies were too stupid to do this and were kicking it so hard infield they were kicking it dead. they saw how their lineout was going and decided they wanted a contest between their backs and the Fijian backs in open play. Send it all into the stands. Second thing England need to do is bring the defence they did against the Pumas, a huge tackle count and compete at every breakdown. The Wallabies defence has been poor, against Fiji it was only 84 tackles made against 23 missed (65% completion), absolutely terrible. Wales against Fiji was 253 tackles made and 34 missed (82% completion). England against Pumas was 147 tackles made and 23 missed (79% completion).

Fiji pinned in their own half and getting tackled a lot, should tilt things in England's favour.

petej wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:45 am

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:41 am

petej wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:30 am Care is a beneficiary from not spending as much time in the England squad. Less time with Eddie telling him to kick it relentlessly, playing less games and less Eddie England training/breaking players. Care isn't the attacking threat he was.

It's not important but I don't agree - Care is still maintaining a relentless pace for tries and assists late in his career. He hasn't lost it. His problem at international level is not a degradation of athletic ability, nor is it even his kicking game (which at this point is the best of the 3 in the squad!) but it's his decision making and his desire to slow the game down when he is personally unsure what to do next.

His sustained performances at club level piss all over most of the 9s except for Mitchell.

At club level if Care say had spent the last few years playing in a Borthwick coached team and a Jones coached england team would he be maintaining that relentless pace for tries and assists (or retired after having all joy the sucked of out of playing)?

Not sure. Gustard wasn't exactly a joybringer and Care was doing OK there. I'm just saying that unlike Youngs, he's not lost any of his attacking abilities, be they athletic or skills based. It's not really the issue with Care as an international.

_Os_ wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 12:00 pm The Wallabies defence has been poor, against Fiji it was only 84 tackles made against 23 missed (65% completion), absolutely terrible. Wales against Fiji was 253 tackles made and 34 missed (82% completion). England against Pumas was 147 tackles made and 23 missed (79% completion).

All those stats are copied from the World Rugby 2023 RWC site. But just noticed, what is going on with those percentages? Is the tackles completed (what they call "tackle success") percentage working off something different than made/missed?

These were the stats for this match:
https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/2023/matc ... apan#stats

Cannot find any documentation.

England must be doing something right: playing eye-bleedingly ugly Rugby, seemingly bereft of any plan or ounce of team work…..and they still win.

The last team who did that most weeks were the ABs in 2022.

They've won two games, against Argentina and Japan. Now beating Argentina when down to 14 men is an achievement, I grant you, but it's not like they're tearing up tree trunks here.

Mahoney wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:09 pm They've won two games, against Argentina and Japan. Now beating Argentina when down to 14 men is an achievement, I grant you, but it's not like they're tearing up tree trunks here.

That’s partly my point. England are shithouse, the rest of their group is fucking garbage at present!!

Sandstorm wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:08 pm England must be doing something right: playing eye-bleedingly ugly Rugby, seemingly bereft of any plan or ounce of team work…..and they still win.

The last team who did that most weeks were the ABs in 2022.

Err...

England 23 Scotland 29
England 31 Italy 14
Wales 10 England 20
England 10 France 53
Ireland 29 England 16
Wales 20 England 9
England 19 Wales 17
Ireland 29 England 10
England 22 Fiji 30
England 27 Argentina 10
England 34 Japan 12


11 matches in 2023, and we've won 5 of them, 1 of which was against Wales 'C', and two were against teams playing absolute shit. The ABs in 2022 won 8 lost 4 and drew 1.

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:02 am

petej wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:07 am

_Os_ wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:24 pm
I had a conversation with an England fan once who was convinced that Youngs was the best scrumhalf, I thought he meant the best in England currently and replied "surely there's someone else?", to which he replied no he was in fact the GOAT. I suggested maybe Gareth Davies was better, which he argued not realising I was taking the piss.

Years later I still don't know who England have at 9, but they should get rid of Youngs the goat (not an acronym) and probably not let Farrell get the 10 jersey back.

England are interesting because if they win Pool D it's the best route to a semi final. Their strengths match the weaknesses of Fiji (I'm guessing Fiji comes second with Wales winning Pool C). If it's Fiji then Wales have already shown the way, dogged defence and making 250+ tackles then wait for Fiji's errors, a repeat of England's match against the Pumas. Knocking Fiji out should please the neutrals. Hilariously England have a much stronger shot of a semi final than any of France/ABs/Boks/Ireland/Scotland do individually. Fuck me it'll be hard to take Youngs the goat, in a semi final and another game after that (3rd place or final) if the Boks go out.

9s Mitchell, van poortfliet, quirke, randall and probably some others but i dont watch as much rugby as i used to. There were a couple of moments yesterday where it semi opened up for Youngs and 10 years ago he would be away. I like Youngs and actually found it quite sad that we are getting to the point where we cant remember him being dangerous with the ball in hand which kept opposition defences busy.

For all Care's failings he's a genuine attacking threat still. Youngs is a carthorse with bad basics.

Coaches like Youngs for the same reason they like Farrell - he’s an obedient Yes man who makes sure that everyone else follows the script.