The Scottish Politics Thread

[Tichtheid]

The one thing that is clear is that on the one hand we have people claiming "illegal immigrants" are in Glasgow and the government agency people were "only doing their job".

On the other hand we have the people of Pollockshields stopping the men being bundled into the back of a van first thing in the morning by government agency people and taken off to dog knows where.
They did it because they regard them as their neighbours.

[Biffer]

First Minister's constituency on the day the Scottish Parliament was being sworn in. Deliberate timing by the Home Office, but it's backfired badly on them.

Seems a stretch to say the Home Office were sat around working out how to embarrass Sturgeon and landed upon 'attempt to deport people in an area where immigration enforcement is unpopular and botch it'.

Fair enough. I'm a firm believer in Occam's razor, but this is a hell of a coincidence.

[Hal Jordan]

Occam's razor leads me to believe that it's more Hostile Environment vileness from the Home Office, which is a nest of vipers, led by a vicious monster in whoever is Home Secretary at the time, and this goes way back (although the present incumbent is having a pretty good tilt at the title of "Nastiest Person in Government").

[inactionman]

Occam's razor leads me to believe that it's more Hostile Environment vileness from the Home Office, which is a nest of vipers, led by a vicious monster in whoever is Home Secretary at the time, and this goes way back (although the present incumbent is having a pretty good tilt at the title of "Nastiest Person in Government").

Pretty much, although I'd suspect this is just a general case of hostile environment rather than necessarily a directed one.

They're this shit with everyone.

[robmatic]

I'd go for Occam's Razor - their job is immigration enforcement, they became aware people were in the country illegally and went and enforced immigration.
Certainly you'd think in neighbourhoods like Pollokshields and equivalents in London/Bristol etc they might go for a slightly more low key approach but I really don't think there's much more to this story than 'immigration enforcement attempted to do the job they're instructed to do'.

I would also expect that there is a fair amount of immigration enforcement happening every day (there are 7,000 deportations a year). This was only 2 blokes I think, which is small beer for a planned operation. They get more folk when they do a restaurant raid.

My day job involves helping people migrate to the UK and I don't have much affection for UK immigration policy, both personally because I can't live in the UK with my wife and professionally because it is in general poorly managed and UK Visas and Immigration have been acting like ***** in the Pritti Patel era. However, this incident is the kind of deportation activity that the UK is really bad at and should probably be doing more of.

At least a bunch of people learned when Eid al-Fitr is so that they can be outraged about it. The next step is learning about Islam's holy day of Friday - shorter working week for all of us.

[robmatic]

Occam's razor leads me to believe that it's more Hostile Environment vileness from the Home Office, which is a nest of vipers, led by a vicious monster in whoever is Home Secretary at the time, and this goes way back (although the present incumbent is having a pretty good tilt at the title of "Nastiest Person in Government").

Pretty much, although I'd suspect this is just a general case of hostile environment rather than necessarily a directed one.

They're this shit with everyone.

Can confirm.

[inactionman]

I'd go for Occam's Razor - their job is immigration enforcement, they became aware people were in the country illegally and went and enforced immigration.
Certainly you'd think in neighbourhoods like Pollokshields and equivalents in London/Bristol etc they might go for a slightly more low key approach but I really don't think there's much more to this story than 'immigration enforcement attempted to do the job they're instructed to do'.

I would also expect that there is a fair amount of immigration enforcement happening every day (there are 7,000 deportations a year). This was only 2 blokes I think, which is small beer for a planned operation. They get more folk when they do a restaurant raid.

My day job involves helping people migrate to the UK and I don't have much affection for UK immigration policy, both personally because I can't live in the UK with my wife and professionally because it is in general poorly managed and UK Visas and Immigration have been acting like ***** in the Pritti Patel era. However, this incident is the kind of deportation activity that the UK is really bad at and should probably be doing more of.

At least a bunch of people learned when Eid al-Fitr is so that they can be outraged about it. The next step is learning about Islam's holy day of Friday - shorter working week for all of us.

Sorry to hear about situation.

It just seems too many decent people are getting slammed in this. I worked with a girl from Malaysia, she was highly capable to the point she was overseas sponsored for a PhD and stayed on afterwards for postdoc, her application for residency was rejected as there was a payment mix-up at her bank and she dropped below the minimum funds level for a few days until the payment was sorted. Her entire application was rejected out of hand because of this, with no recourse. It cost a shedload, took ages, and she had to do it all again.

She's now associate prof at a uni in the midlands so got it sorted, but how they get away with this is beyond me. Needless stress, needless cost, and the uni were furious at the home office as they worried about her safety and about losing her.

Also had an Iranian whose passport was held for over a year whilst the home office fecked about, so he couldn't go home to see folks or go to any conferences - our head of school eventually wrote a shitty letter telling them to get finger out, it really shouldn't have got to that point.

[inactionman]

Guardian article on home office (may already have been posted, I lose track)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ome-office

Seems a large part of the issue is that civil servants have had discretion removed, so operate to letter of law. That's exactly the sort of Civil Service we don't want - jobsworths mindlessly following overly constrained processes dreamed up by arseholes.

[robmatic]

I'd go for Occam's Razor - their job is immigration enforcement, they became aware people were in the country illegally and went and enforced immigration.
Certainly you'd think in neighbourhoods like Pollokshields and equivalents in London/Bristol etc they might go for a slightly more low key approach but I really don't think there's much more to this story than 'immigration enforcement attempted to do the job they're instructed to do'.

I would also expect that there is a fair amount of immigration enforcement happening every day (there are 7,000 deportations a year). This was only 2 blokes I think, which is small beer for a planned operation. They get more folk when they do a restaurant raid.

My day job involves helping people migrate to the UK and I don't have much affection for UK immigration policy, both personally because I can't live in the UK with my wife and professionally because it is in general poorly managed and UK Visas and Immigration have been acting like ***** in the Pritti Patel era. However, this incident is the kind of deportation activity that the UK is really bad at and should probably be doing more of.

At least a bunch of people learned when Eid al-Fitr is so that they can be outraged about it. The next step is learning about Islam's holy day of Friday - shorter working week for all of us.

Sorry to hear about situation.

It just seems too many decent people are getting slammed in this. I worked with a girl from Malaysia, she was highly capable to the point she was overseas sponsored for a PhD and stayed on afterwards for postdoc, her application for residency was rejected as there was a payment mix-up at her bank and she dropped below the minimum funds level for a few days until the payment was sorted. Her entire application was rejected out of hand because of this, with no recourse. It cost a shedload, took ages, and she had to do it all again.

She's now associate prof at a uni in the midlands so got it sorted, but how they get away with this is beyond me. Needless stress, needless cost, and the uni were furious at the home office as they worried about her safety and about losing her.

Also had an Iranian whose passport was held for over a year whilst the home office fecked about, so he couldn't go home to see folks or go to any conferences - our head of school eventually wrote a shitty letter telling them to get finger out, it really shouldn't have got to that point.

We've basically developed a system that is bureaucratically intimidating and capricious for normal folk but relatively ineffective at dealing with irregular immigration. It's nuts.

My wife is married to a British citizen, the parent of a British citizen, speaks better English than I do, has a Masters degree from a British uni, was privately educated in Switzerland etc. but is basically unwelcome.

Meanwhile there's probably hundreds of thousands of people kicking around the UK without a visa.

[Biffer]

So here's the difference.

Scotland FM - there's a new variant, it's shit, these areas need to stay in their current level or it'll get bad

UK PM - could be difficult, dreadful, hmm, ahh, no action, risk of disruption, no action, bmm,

What the fuck was the point of his briefing today? Either take some action to help this shit or don't.

[tc27]

Far be it for me to defend Boris (I think he should resign over what happened this winter) but not really a fair comment...you missed the part about significant change in the vaccine strategy (8 weeks instead of 12 for over 50s) and a surge in testing and vaccination in affected areas. The reasoning behind going ahead with Mondays easement is that the vaccines do appear to be effective but caution about the June 21 lifting of all restrictions.

You see what you want to I guess.

[Slick]

The one thing that is clear is that on the one hand we have people claiming "illegal immigrants" are in Glasgow and the government agency people were "only doing their job".

On the other hand we have the people of Pollockshields stopping the men being bundled into the back of a van first thing in the morning by government agency people and taken off to dog knows where.
They did it because they regard them as their neighbours.

Don’t make this out to be something it wasn’t. All the papers were desperate to make it a “dawn raid”. It wasn’t, it was 2 blokes in a marked van knocking a door at 9.30am.

I’m proud of Scotland’s attitude to refugees but for it to work it has to be regulated properly.

[Biffer]

Far be it for me to defend Boris (I think he should resign over what happened this winter) but not really a fair comment...you missed the part about significant change in the vaccine strategy (8 weeks instead of 12 for over 50s) and a surge in testing and vaccination in affected areas. The reasoning behind going ahead with Mondays easement is that the vaccines do appear to be effective but caution about the June 21 lifting of all restrictions.

You see what you want to I guess.

Even if you vaccinate everyone in those areas this week, it’ll be two to three weeks before that has the desired effect, so the virus will continue to spread as those areas are allowed to open up. They’ll have to go back in to restrictions again at some point, he’s just delaying it. Once again he’s dragging his feet in taking action to tackle the spread of the disease.

[Tichtheid]

The one thing that is clear is that on the one hand we have people claiming "illegal immigrants" are in Glasgow and the government agency people were "only doing their job".

On the other hand we have the people of Pollockshields stopping the men being bundled into the back of a van first thing in the morning by government agency people and taken off to dog knows where.
They did it because they regard them as their neighbours.

Don’t make this out to be something it wasn’t. All the papers were desperate to make it a “dawn raid”. It wasn’t, it was 2 blokes in a marked van knocking a door at 9.30am.

I’m proud of Scotland’s attitude to refugees but for it to work it has to be regulated properly.

We can discuss what constitutes "first thing in the morning", other than that my post was outlining how I think the two "sides" see the events of Thursday morning.

Someone else might say, 'Don't make this out to be something it wasn't, this was not a benign action - as the Justice Secretary said: “The actions of the Home Office were at best utterly incompetent, at worst intended to provoke. Either way they were completely unacceptable."'

[Slick]

The one thing that is clear is that on the one hand we have people claiming "illegal immigrants" are in Glasgow and the government agency people were "only doing their job".

On the other hand we have the people of Pollockshields stopping the men being bundled into the back of a van first thing in the morning by government agency people and taken off to dog knows where.
They did it because they regard them as their neighbours.

Don’t make this out to be something it wasn’t. All the papers were desperate to make it a “dawn raid”. It wasn’t, it was 2 blokes in a marked van knocking a door at 9.30am.

I’m proud of Scotland’s attitude to refugees but for it to work it has to be regulated properly.

We can discuss what constitutes "first thing in the morning", other than that my post was outlining how I think the two "sides" see the events of Thursday morning.

Someone else might say, 'Don't make this out to be something it wasn't, this was not a benign action - as the Justice Secretary said: “The actions of the Home Office were at best utterly incompetent, at worst intended to provoke. Either way they were completely unacceptable."'

It was completely stupid to do it on that day. Apart from that I honestly can’t see what else anyone expects them to do?

Humza is an idiot playing to the gallery as usual

[dpedin]

Don’t make this out to be something it wasn’t. All the papers were desperate to make it a “dawn raid”. It wasn’t, it was 2 blokes in a marked van knocking a door at 9.30am.

I’m proud of Scotland’s attitude to refugees but for it to work it has to be regulated properly.

We can discuss what constitutes "first thing in the morning", other than that my post was outlining how I think the two "sides" see the events of Thursday morning.

Someone else might say, 'Don't make this out to be something it wasn't, this was not a benign action - as the Justice Secretary said: “The actions of the Home Office were at best utterly incompetent, at worst intended to provoke. Either way they were completely unacceptable."'

It was completely stupid to do it on that day. Apart from that I honestly can’t see what else anyone expects them to do?

Humza is an idiot playing to the gallery as usual

In more general terms the situation in Glasgow reminded me of the reaction to the poll tax being piloted in Scotland by Maggie. Regardless of the detail above I suspect there comes a point when the divergence in morals and politics between Scotland and a Tory run England gets to a point when we Scots say enough is enough. This will become a starting point for wider public demonstrations against the Tory right wing policies for immigration, voter ID, Brexit, Erasmus, etc. It's been building for a while ie bedroom tax, UC, etc. It isn't just a political issue, it is more about basic human values and beliefs and social justice.

[inactionman]

We can discuss what constitutes "first thing in the morning", other than that my post was outlining how I think the two "sides" see the events of Thursday morning.

Someone else might say, 'Don't make this out to be something it wasn't, this was not a benign action - as the Justice Secretary said: “The actions of the Home Office were at best utterly incompetent, at worst intended to provoke. Either way they were completely unacceptable."'

It was completely stupid to do it on that day. Apart from that I honestly can’t see what else anyone expects them to do?

Humza is an idiot playing to the gallery as usual

In more general terms the situation in Glasgow reminded me of the reaction to the poll tax being piloted in Scotland by Maggie. Regardless of the detail above I suspect there comes a point when the divergence in morals and politics between Scotland and a Tory run England gets to a point when we Scots say enough is enough. This will become a starting point for wider public demonstrations against the Tory right wing policies for immigration, voter ID, Brexit, Erasmus, etc. It's been building for a while ie bedroom tax, UC, etc. It isn't just a political issue, it is more about basic human values and beliefs and social justice.

Inherent in your post is an assumption of some sort of ethical or moral difference between England and Scotland - which is not that clear to me, as there were pool tax protests in pretty much every part of the UK. I'd say it's as much to do with some reserved functions necessarily having to make harder judgements with necessarily harsher implications. Any government which has to control borders will need to perform unpopular acts - although I will agree this particular government has gone to fucking town on it, and almost seems to take pride in being arses. Regardless of that, it will always, always lead to divisive acts, and it's easier to sit in judgment when it's others having to make calls.

I've posted about this on the other board, I worked for the Scottish equivalent of the DWP for a short period and the steer was always just to be 'nicer' than the DWP. No real effort to be more useful, helpful or effective - although many of course took that as their prime duty - just to appear a certain way. It was about being able to sit in judgment.

[tc27]

Sigh..back to this 'massively different values' BS.

In reality altitudes to immigration largely identical within the UK: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-46457341

Loads of places in the UK you would see a similar reaction.

[dpedin]

It was completely stupid to do it on that day. Apart from that I honestly can’t see what else anyone expects them to do?

Humza is an idiot playing to the gallery as usual

In more general terms the situation in Glasgow reminded me of the reaction to the poll tax being piloted in Scotland by Maggie. Regardless of the detail above I suspect there comes a point when the divergence in morals and politics between Scotland and a Tory run England gets to a point when we Scots say enough is enough. This will become a starting point for wider public demonstrations against the Tory right wing policies for immigration, voter ID, Brexit, Erasmus, etc. It's been building for a while ie bedroom tax, UC, etc. It isn't just a political issue, it is more about basic human values and beliefs and social justice.

Inherent in your post is an assumption of some sort of ethical or moral difference between England and Scotland - which is not that clear to me, as there were pool tax protests in pretty much every part of the UK. I'd say it's as much to do with some reserved functions necessarily having to make harder judgements with necessarily harsher implications. Any government which has to control borders will need to perform unpopular acts - although I will agree this particular government has gone to fucking town on it, and almost seems to take pride in being arses. Regardless of that, it will always, always lead to divisive acts, and it's easier to sit in judgment when it's others having to make calls.

I've posted about this on the other board, I worked for the Scottish equivalent of the DWP for a short period and the steer was always just to be 'nicer' than the DWP. No real effort to be more useful, helpful or effective - although many of course took that as their prime duty - just to appear a certain way. It was about being able to sit in judgment.

No - I was careful and clear it was about a 'Tory run England' and 'Tory right wing policies' - I wasn't making the leap into the broader differences between England and Scotland folk. Fully aware of the poll tax protests elsewhere in the UK etc - I was there! Interesting how folk can tell me what is inherent in my posts. I do however believe that the Tory Party, in much the same way populism has infected the Republican Party in the US, has lost its way both ethically and morally, indeed the likes of John Major, Dominic Grieve and many other ex Tories have said precisely the same.

I'm not sure the reserved functions are in any way more inherently difficult or involve harder judgments TBH, perhaps it just seems that way because we have a bunch of right wing nutters making them and feckin' them up? I think the vast majority of folk know and appreciate that reserved matters such as border control etc will involve difficult decisions, as do devolved matters such as health, and its not about 'opening the doors and letting everyone in' but doing the job properly, fairly, humanly and transparently isn't a lot to ask for - just ask those involved in the Windrush debacle if this UK Gov meet those standards.

Brexit created a significant divide in the UK, how it was handled and the 'deal' we ended up with widened the chasms even further. For a country such as Scotland who, given its demographic profile, is dependant upon positive inward immigration the current UK immigration policies and ongoing 'hostile environment' is a major disaster. You would almost think the Tories don't give a shit about Scotland? Nor Northern Ireland?

[inactionman]

In more general terms the situation in Glasgow reminded me of the reaction to the poll tax being piloted in Scotland by Maggie. Regardless of the detail above I suspect there comes a point when the divergence in morals and politics between Scotland and a Tory run England gets to a point when we Scots say enough is enough. This will become a starting point for wider public demonstrations against the Tory right wing policies for immigration, voter ID, Brexit, Erasmus, etc. It's been building for a while ie bedroom tax, UC, etc. It isn't just a political issue, it is more about basic human values and beliefs and social justice.

Inherent in your post is an assumption of some sort of ethical or moral difference between England and Scotland - which is not that clear to me, as there were pool tax protests in pretty much every part of the UK. I'd say it's as much to do with some reserved functions necessarily having to make harder judgements with necessarily harsher implications. Any government which has to control borders will need to perform unpopular acts - although I will agree this particular government has gone to fucking town on it, and almost seems to take pride in being arses. Regardless of that, it will always, always lead to divisive acts, and it's easier to sit in judgment when it's others having to make calls.

I've posted about this on the other board, I worked for the Scottish equivalent of the DWP for a short period and the steer was always just to be 'nicer' than the DWP. No real effort to be more useful, helpful or effective - although many of course took that as their prime duty - just to appear a certain way. It was about being able to sit in judgment.

No - I was careful and clear it was about a 'Tory run England' and 'Tory right wing policies' - I wasn't making the leap into the broader differences between England and Scotland folk. Fully aware of the poll tax protests elsewhere in the UK etc - I was there! Interesting how folk can tell me what is inherent in my posts. I do however believe that the Tory Party, in much the same way populism has infected the Republican Party in the US, has lost its way both ethically and morally, indeed the likes of John Major, Dominic Grieve and many other ex Tories have said precisely the same.

I'm not sure the reserved functions are in any way more inherently difficult or involve harder judgments TBH, perhaps it just seems that way because we have a bunch of right wing nutters making them and feckin' them up? I think the vast majority of folk know and appreciate that reserved matters such as border control etc will involve difficult decisions, as do devolved matters such as health, and its not about 'opening the doors and letting everyone in' but doing the job properly, fairly, humanly and transparently isn't a lot to ask for - just ask those involved in the Windrush debacle if this UK Gov meet those standards.

Brexit created a significant divide in the UK, how it was handled and the 'deal' we ended up with widened the chasms even further. For a country such as Scotland who, given its demographic profile, is dependant upon positive inward immigration the current UK immigration policies and ongoing 'hostile environment' is a major disaster. You would almost think the Tories don't give a shit about Scotland? Nor Northern Ireland?

In which case, why is it 'Scots say enough is enough' and not 'decent people in the UK say enough is enough'? What exactly do you expect people to infer? I'm not the only poster to have read it that way.

I don't think many on here would defend what's going on with immigration, it's a culture of nastiness started by May and continued ever since. I think the hostile environment is an issue for many people, and your feeling that he Tories don't give a shit about Scotland could equally be extended to places like Cornwall, the Welsh Valleys and much of the industrial midlands and north. The problem is, in many cases there's no viable opposition to the Tories in these places - lib dems shat the bed with Clegg and Corbyn was so far out of touch and so fixated on 6th form debating issues there's no surprise huge swathes looked elsewhere.

[Biffer]

Inherent in your post is an assumption of some sort of ethical or moral difference between England and Scotland - which is not that clear to me, as there were pool tax protests in pretty much every part of the UK. I'd say it's as much to do with some reserved functions necessarily having to make harder judgements with necessarily harsher implications. Any government which has to control borders will need to perform unpopular acts - although I will agree this particular government has gone to fucking town on it, and almost seems to take pride in being arses. Regardless of that, it will always, always lead to divisive acts, and it's easier to sit in judgment when it's others having to make calls.

I've posted about this on the other board, I worked for the Scottish equivalent of the DWP for a short period and the steer was always just to be 'nicer' than the DWP. No real effort to be more useful, helpful or effective - although many of course took that as their prime duty - just to appear a certain way. It was about being able to sit in judgment.

No - I was careful and clear it was about a 'Tory run England' and 'Tory right wing policies' - I wasn't making the leap into the broader differences between England and Scotland folk. Fully aware of the poll tax protests elsewhere in the UK etc - I was there! Interesting how folk can tell me what is inherent in my posts. I do however believe that the Tory Party, in much the same way populism has infected the Republican Party in the US, has lost its way both ethically and morally, indeed the likes of John Major, Dominic Grieve and many other ex Tories have said precisely the same.

I'm not sure the reserved functions are in any way more inherently difficult or involve harder judgments TBH, perhaps it just seems that way because we have a bunch of right wing nutters making them and feckin' them up? I think the vast majority of folk know and appreciate that reserved matters such as border control etc will involve difficult decisions, as do devolved matters such as health, and its not about 'opening the doors and letting everyone in' but doing the job properly, fairly, humanly and transparently isn't a lot to ask for - just ask those involved in the Windrush debacle if this UK Gov meet those standards.

Brexit created a significant divide in the UK, how it was handled and the 'deal' we ended up with widened the chasms even further. For a country such as Scotland who, given its demographic profile, is dependant upon positive inward immigration the current UK immigration policies and ongoing 'hostile environment' is a major disaster. You would almost think the Tories don't give a shit about Scotland? Nor Northern Ireland?

In which case, why is it 'Scots say enough is enough' and not 'decent people in the UK say enough is enough'? What exactly do you expect people to infer? I'm not the only poster to have read it that way.

I don't think many on here would defend what's going on with immigration, it's a culture of nastiness started by May and continued ever since. I think the hostile environment is an issue for many people, and your feeling that he Tories don't give a shit about Scotland could equally be extended to places like Cornwall, the Welsh Valleys and much of the industrial midlands and north. The problem is, in many cases there's no viable opposition to the Tories in these places - lib dems shat the bed with Clegg and Corbyn was so far out of touch and so fixated on 6th form debating issues there's no surprise huge swathes looked elsewhere.

And yet more people voted for the Tory party than since 1992. 3 million more than Cameron.

[Slick]

Inherent in your post is an assumption of some sort of ethical or moral difference between England and Scotland - which is not that clear to me, as there were pool tax protests in pretty much every part of the UK. I'd say it's as much to do with some reserved functions necessarily having to make harder judgements with necessarily harsher implications. Any government which has to control borders will need to perform unpopular acts - although I will agree this particular government has gone to fucking town on it, and almost seems to take pride in being arses. Regardless of that, it will always, always lead to divisive acts, and it's easier to sit in judgment when it's others having to make calls.

I've posted about this on the other board, I worked for the Scottish equivalent of the DWP for a short period and the steer was always just to be 'nicer' than the DWP. No real effort to be more useful, helpful or effective - although many of course took that as their prime duty - just to appear a certain way. It was about being able to sit in judgment.

No - I was careful and clear it was about a 'Tory run England' and 'Tory right wing policies' - I wasn't making the leap into the broader differences between England and Scotland folk. Fully aware of the poll tax protests elsewhere in the UK etc - I was there! Interesting how folk can tell me what is inherent in my posts. I do however believe that the Tory Party, in much the same way populism has infected the Republican Party in the US, has lost its way both ethically and morally, indeed the likes of John Major, Dominic Grieve and many other ex Tories have said precisely the same.

I'm not sure the reserved functions are in any way more inherently difficult or involve harder judgments TBH, perhaps it just seems that way because we have a bunch of right wing nutters making them and feckin' them up? I think the vast majority of folk know and appreciate that reserved matters such as border control etc will involve difficult decisions, as do devolved matters such as health, and its not about 'opening the doors and letting everyone in' but doing the job properly, fairly, humanly and transparently isn't a lot to ask for - just ask those involved in the Windrush debacle if this UK Gov meet those standards.

Brexit created a significant divide in the UK, how it was handled and the 'deal' we ended up with widened the chasms even further. For a country such as Scotland who, given its demographic profile, is dependant upon positive inward immigration the current UK immigration policies and ongoing 'hostile environment' is a major disaster. You would almost think the Tories don't give a shit about Scotland? Nor Northern Ireland?

In which case, why is it 'Scots say enough is enough' and not 'decent people in the UK say enough is enough'? What exactly do you expect people to infer? I'm not the only poster to have read it that way.

I don't think many on here would defend what's going on with immigration, it's a culture of nastiness started by May and continued ever since. I think the hostile environment is an issue for many people, and your feeling that he Tories don't give a shit about Scotland could equally be extended to places like Cornwall, the Welsh Valleys and much of the industrial midlands and north. The problem is, in many cases there's no viable opposition to the Tories in these places - lib dems shat the bed with Clegg and Corbyn was so far out of touch and so fixated on 6th form debating issues there's no surprise huge swathes looked elsewhere.

You are quite right.

Dpedin and a few other need a reality check on much of this. We might have a government that says the right thing but the reality is that as a society we are a good 10 years behind anywhere I have lived in England on race. Casual racism is absolutely rife in Scotland and I see it far more on a day to day basis than I ever did down south.

There are real, and very commendable, efforts to change this from SG and wider society but to pretend we are superior to anywhere else in the U.K. is a total fallacy.

[Tichtheid]

No - I was careful and clear it was about a 'Tory run England' and 'Tory right wing policies' - I wasn't making the leap into the broader differences between England and Scotland folk. Fully aware of the poll tax protests elsewhere in the UK etc - I was there! Interesting how folk can tell me what is inherent in my posts. I do however believe that the Tory Party, in much the same way populism has infected the Republican Party in the US, has lost its way both ethically and morally, indeed the likes of John Major, Dominic Grieve and many other ex Tories have said precisely the same.

I'm not sure the reserved functions are in any way more inherently difficult or involve harder judgments TBH, perhaps it just seems that way because we have a bunch of right wing nutters making them and feckin' them up? I think the vast majority of folk know and appreciate that reserved matters such as border control etc will involve difficult decisions, as do devolved matters such as health, and its not about 'opening the doors and letting everyone in' but doing the job properly, fairly, humanly and transparently isn't a lot to ask for - just ask those involved in the Windrush debacle if this UK Gov meet those standards.

Brexit created a significant divide in the UK, how it was handled and the 'deal' we ended up with widened the chasms even further. For a country such as Scotland who, given its demographic profile, is dependant upon positive inward immigration the current UK immigration policies and ongoing 'hostile environment' is a major disaster. You would almost think the Tories don't give a shit about Scotland? Nor Northern Ireland?

In which case, why is it 'Scots say enough is enough' and not 'decent people in the UK say enough is enough'? What exactly do you expect people to infer? I'm not the only poster to have read it that way.

I don't think many on here would defend what's going on with immigration, it's a culture of nastiness started by May and continued ever since. I think the hostile environment is an issue for many people, and your feeling that he Tories don't give a shit about Scotland could equally be extended to places like Cornwall, the Welsh Valleys and much of the industrial midlands and north. The problem is, in many cases there's no viable opposition to the Tories in these places - lib dems shat the bed with Clegg and Corbyn was so far out of touch and so fixated on 6th form debating issues there's no surprise huge swathes looked elsewhere.

You are quite right.

Dpedin and a few other need a reality check on much of this. We might have a government that says the right thing but the reality is that as a society we are a good 10 years behind anywhere I have lived in England on race. Casual racism is absolutely rife in Scotland and I see it far more on a day to day basis than I ever did down south.

There are real, and very commendable, efforts to change this from SG and wider society but to pretend we are superior to anywhere else in the U.K. is a total fallacy.

I'm not sure that represents or addresses anything that dpedin posted, to be honest.

There are dreadful prejudices that go on in Scotland that aren't really prevalent elsewhere in the UK, at least not outside Northern Ireland, the vast majority of English people wouldn't have the faintest idea what sectarianism is, let alone what it is like to experience it.

The Gaels have their own feelings of being marginalised and looked down upon by the wider community in Scotland, that is mirrored in the Scottish Cringe when it comes to Scots or Doric in language terms

dpedin talked about Scots saying "enough is enough" in reference to what is happening in Scotland, I don't see anything wrong with that. He further mentioned that some Tory grandees have also said the lurch to the Right in the current Tory party is alienating people, again I don't see anything controversial in saying that.

[Slick]

It’s the whole “Scots say enough is enough” thing that makes me cringe, not to mention alluding to Scots having more “basic human values and beliefs”

Yes we have a government that fits that bill better than the current lot at Westminster but to suggest that our society as a whole is more tolerant and less racist than elsewhere in the U.K. is nonsense.

[dpedin]

It’s the whole “Scots say enough is enough” thing that makes me cringe, not to mention alluding to Scots having more “basic human values and beliefs”

Yes we have a government that fits that bill better than the current lot at Westminster but to suggest that our society as a whole is more tolerant and less racist than elsewhere in the U.K. is nonsense.

I said 'we Scots say enough is enough' and it was in reference to the situation that arose in Glasgow and the wider context within which it was taking place. I said we Scots because as a Scot I feel I can comment on that, I don't feel able or qualified to comment on what the view of the English, Welsh or Irish folk feel about it.

Again any comment I made about basic human values and beliefs was in direct reference to the current Tory UK Gov. I didn't make any reference to the Scots society being more tolerant or less racist than society elsewhere in the UK. Indeed I suggested in my first post that I thought it would lead to wider public demonstrations etc against Tory right wing policies. I thought that was made abundantly clear?

It seems you are reading into my posts more of what you want to find rather than what I actually said! Instead of suggesting, wrongly, what I 'infer' or 'allude' to, it would be far more sensible and indeed polite to ask questions or of for clarification rather than to jump to your own misplaced conclusions and start an argument you obviously have more interest in having than I do!

[westport]

Quite funny the politicians condemning the wendyball supporters, quite rightly, after yesterday's gathering and yet a couple of days earlier they were encouraging people to gather when the couple of Sikh's were getting taken away.

[Jockaline]

You cannot speak for the whole of Scotland though, only yourself. Your tone was laced with superiority that isn't justified. There's a lot wrong with Scotland that has nothing to do with Westminster or the Tories. The look over their grievance politics is to distract and to avoid us addressing our home grown issues. That's the politics of Scotland at the moment and we are the poorer for it.

[robmatic]

Quite funny the politicians condemning the wendyball supporters, quite rightly, after yesterday's gathering and yet a couple of days earlier they were encouraging people to gather when the couple of Sikh's were getting taken away.

Wait, they were Sikh? What was all that bollocks about it being the height of insensitivity to pick them up on the first day of Eid then?

[Dogbert]

You cannot speak for the whole of Scotland though, only yourself. Your tone was laced with superiority that isn't justified. There's a lot wrong with Scotland that has nothing to do with Westminster or the Tories. The look over their grievance politics is to distract and to avoid us addressing our home grown issues. That's the politics of Scotland at the moment and we are the poorer for it.

And what did the main opposition party campaign on is the election - Stop Indyref 2 - that was it

Indeed their can be no indyref without the agreement without Westminster agreement , and the party that controls Westminster is also the main opposition party in Scotland

For grievance politics look no further than the Tories

[Jockaline]

This does make me proud to be a Scot.

https://twitter.com/sukisangh/status/13 ... 36964?s=20

If you believe in human rights you might wish to sign this petition https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/585314

[westport]

Quite funny the politicians condemning the wendyball supporters, quite rightly, after yesterday's gathering and yet a couple of days earlier they were encouraging people to gather when the couple of Sikh's were getting taken away.

Wait, they were Sikh? What was all that bollocks about it being the height of insensitivity to pick them up on the first day of Eid then?

Doesn't fall into their narrative.

[Slick]

to action this in an area currently in the middle of a spike of Covid cases , in a neighbourhood with a large Muslim community , at the start of Eid , shows effectively how Scots are viewed

Good to see its not about the rights and wrongs of the men being deported but obviously yet more evidence that Scots are hard done by. A real reach here I think.

Even more so now we know that just about every part of the original story was incorrect.

[Tichtheid]

The original story was that the residents of Pollockshields prevented the Immigration Enforcement agency from taking away two people the locals regarded as neighbours.

That hasn’t changed.

There were people of several faiths and none involved. The men were taken to a local mosque upon their release according to the Evening Times.

[tc27]

Well worth a read - a good and objective summary about a matter we have discussed a few times on this thread.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/is-s ... 1621150331

[Paddington Bear]

No - I was careful and clear it was about a 'Tory run England' and 'Tory right wing policies' - I wasn't making the leap into the broader differences between England and Scotland folk. Fully aware of the poll tax protests elsewhere in the UK etc - I was there! Interesting how folk can tell me what is inherent in my posts. I do however believe that the Tory Party, in much the same way populism has infected the Republican Party in the US, has lost its way both ethically and morally, indeed the likes of John Major, Dominic Grieve and many other ex Tories have said precisely the same.

I'm not sure the reserved functions are in any way more inherently difficult or involve harder judgments TBH, perhaps it just seems that way because we have a bunch of right wing nutters making them and feckin' them up? I think the vast majority of folk know and appreciate that reserved matters such as border control etc will involve difficult decisions, as do devolved matters such as health, and its not about 'opening the doors and letting everyone in' but doing the job properly, fairly, humanly and transparently isn't a lot to ask for - just ask those involved in the Windrush debacle if this UK Gov meet those standards.

Brexit created a significant divide in the UK, how it was handled and the 'deal' we ended up with widened the chasms even further. For a country such as Scotland who, given its demographic profile, is dependant upon positive inward immigration the current UK immigration policies and ongoing 'hostile environment' is a major disaster. You would almost think the Tories don't give a shit about Scotland? Nor Northern Ireland?

In which case, why is it 'Scots say enough is enough' and not 'decent people in the UK say enough is enough'? What exactly do you expect people to infer? I'm not the only poster to have read it that way.

I don't think many on here would defend what's going on with immigration, it's a culture of nastiness started by May and continued ever since. I think the hostile environment is an issue for many people, and your feeling that he Tories don't give a shit about Scotland could equally be extended to places like Cornwall, the Welsh Valleys and much of the industrial midlands and north. The problem is, in many cases there's no viable opposition to the Tories in these places - lib dems shat the bed with Clegg and Corbyn was so far out of touch and so fixated on 6th form debating issues there's no surprise huge swathes looked elsewhere.

And yet more people voted for the Tory party than since 1992. 3 million more than Cameron.

These posts never take into account the only viable alternative option for English voters. The leader of said option's friends were yesterday driving round the area I live in during the last election demanding the raping of Jewish women. I don't have to love Boris Johnson to sleep comfortably with the choice I made.

[Paddington Bear]

The original story was that the residents of Pollockshields prevented the Immigration Enforcement agency from taking away two people the locals regarded as neighbours.

That hasn’t changed.

There were people of several faiths and none involved. The men were taken to a local mosque upon their release according to the Evening Times.

I'd push back (gently) against this. I know Glasgow has more of a community spirit to it than a lot of places in England, however did the protestors know these guys from Adam? Strikes me this was about their personal politics rather than the individuals involved. Not a criticism per se.

[Slick]

The original story was that the residents of Pollockshields prevented the Immigration Enforcement agency from taking away two people the locals regarded as neighbours.

That hasn’t changed.

There were people of several faiths and none involved. The men were taken to a local mosque upon their release according to the Evening Times.

I think you are being a little disingenuous there, the excitment was over dawn (nope) raid (nope) muslims at Eid (nope).

I have a huge amount of sympathy for these guys, they have lived here a good chunk of their lives now, seem to have made lives for themselves, seem like good people judging from the reaction of the neighbours. In all honesty I find it personally difficult to justify removing them, from what we know.

On the other side, it seems they have been through the full process, including exhausting appeals, so it's difficult to understand what else UKG should do? What is an independent Scotland going to do differently? I presume it's not going to be an open border for anyone calling themselves a refugee who can stay if their neighbour likes them? Not to mention the capitulation to mob rule, that's a hugely dangerous precedent and will have ramifications across the UK.

So what is the SNP's policy on immigration and refugees? I can't find anything beyond "Tory immigration proposals would be disastrous for Scotland." and "With independence, and full power over migration policy, we can build asylum and immigration systems geared to meet Scotland’s needs and founded on fairness and human rights", which means absolutely nothing. If they can't say what an independent Scotland would do differently in this case, or others, then yet again it's just posturing and bullshit.

[Tichtheid]

The original story was that the residents of Pollockshields prevented the Immigration Enforcement agency from taking away two people the locals regarded as neighbours.

That hasn’t changed.

There were people of several faiths and none involved. The men were taken to a local mosque upon their release according to the Evening Times.

I'd push back (gently) against this. I know Glasgow has more of a community spirit to it than a lot of places in England, however did the protestors know these guys from Adam? Strikes me this was about their personal politics rather than the individuals involved. Not a criticism per se.

The feeling I got from reading a lot of the quotes was that the men were regarded as "one of us", or "two of us" in this case. I don't think you have to know someone personally to think that way - it's a "you mess with one of us, you mess with all of us" attitude (or "community spirit" as you put it) and it's to be applauded in the face of the current trend towards individualism and closing the curtains, "best not get involved" type of attitude.

[Biffer]

In which case, why is it 'Scots say enough is enough' and not 'decent people in the UK say enough is enough'? What exactly do you expect people to infer? I'm not the only poster to have read it that way.

I don't think many on here would defend what's going on with immigration, it's a culture of nastiness started by May and continued ever since. I think the hostile environment is an issue for many people, and your feeling that he Tories don't give a shit about Scotland could equally be extended to places like Cornwall, the Welsh Valleys and much of the industrial midlands and north. The problem is, in many cases there's no viable opposition to the Tories in these places - lib dems shat the bed with Clegg and Corbyn was so far out of touch and so fixated on 6th form debating issues there's no surprise huge swathes looked elsewhere.

And yet more people voted for the Tory party than since 1992. 3 million more than Cameron.

These posts never take into account the only viable alternative option for English voters. The leader of said option's friends were yesterday driving round the area I live in during the last election demanding the raping of Jewish women. I don't have to love Boris Johnson to sleep comfortably with the choice I made.

You get the politicians you deserve. They're not imposed on you by a higher power. If Scotland can find people it finds more acceptable to vote for, what is it about England that is incapable of doing that? It's not just the SNP - The Conservatives haven't won an election in Scotland for more than 50 years.

[Tichtheid]

The original story was that the residents of Pollockshields prevented the Immigration Enforcement agency from taking away two people the locals regarded as neighbours.

That hasn’t changed.

There were people of several faiths and none involved. The men were taken to a local mosque upon their release according to the Evening Times.

I think you are being a little disingenuous there, the excitment was over dawn (nope) raid (nope) muslims at Eid (nope).

I'll go through those one by one since I posted the original story.

1. The newspaper article used the term "early on Thursday morning", a representative of Maryhill Integration Network described it as a "dawn raid", this is a widely-used term, one can take it literally or figuratively. It did not happen at precisely six minutes past five - dawn in Glasgow on the 14th - I'll grant you that.

2. These men were taken from their home and bundled into the back of a van with the aim of expelling them from the UK.

3. The article quoted Sturgeon as describing the street as being "in the heart of a Muslim community". Eid started on Wednesday the 13th of May and ended on the evening of Thursday the 14th of May, the events took place on the morning of the 14th.


The video showed many people with white faces, now I may be stereotyping here, but I took their presence to show that it was not just Muslims who were objecting to the actions of the Government agency, the chants of "these are our neighbours" had a lot to do with how I viewed the events, too.