A place where escape goats go to play
https://www.notplanetrugby.com/
Do we though? The bulk of our players play for Edinburgh and Glasgow, who rarely string two knock out wins together in the URC or the Champions Cup and regularly lose big games v Leinster (with one notable recent exception).Yr Alban wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 7:13 am https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... e4l7xjx3ro
TBH this is a bit depressing. The SRU saying they’re keen to give Toony another go at the World Cup. I was hoping that there might be some substance to the rumour they were going to replace him with Smith.
We have the players to put in a real 6N challenge, but I just can’t see it ever happening with Toony in charge. The last time we beat Ireland was in 2017, when Cotter was still in post.
I had a wee glimmer of hope he might want to finish his career at Glasgow but this more or less definitely takes him to retirement.
I haven't seen much of them myself (besides OBL and Seb Steven for that one match), but I have heard there are high hopes for the tight 5 in the current u20s. Conversely, the Irish seem pretty underwhelmed by their current group coming through the system.Tichtheid wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 8:28 am Glasgow don't beat Leinster in a knock out game, that just seems to be the rule. Edinburgh don't beat Leinster in any game, let alone knock outs. Embra got to the semi final of the European Cup about a dozen years ago, that's Scotland's best performance so far.
The teams we, Scotland, struggle against are France when they are on form, though it always feels like we can beat them, and Ireland. Plus obviously South Africa and New Zealand.
The only way we are going to beat those teams is if we suddenly grow a pack of forwards who are bigger, faster, stronger and meaner than them - where are these guys coming from?
Ireland/Leinster themselves struggle against teams that beat them up front.
Townsend isn't the problem, imo.
edit, btw, those four teams are ranked 1-4 in the world. Is anyone seriously suggesting we are a top 4 side, if only we had a different coach?
I honestly can't see it, myself.
I'd agree with that - short in the front row and the big bastard 8 or 6 to bash it in, good for back row and lock more generally (although we don't really have the nasty bastard locks).KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 9:40 amI haven't seen much of them myself (besides OBL and Seb Steven for that one match), but I have heard there are high hopes for the tight 5 in the current u20s. Conversely, the Irish seem pretty underwhelmed by their current group coming through the system.Tichtheid wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 8:28 am Glasgow don't beat Leinster in a knock out game, that just seems to be the rule. Edinburgh don't beat Leinster in any game, let alone knock outs. Embra got to the semi final of the European Cup about a dozen years ago, that's Scotland's best performance so far.
The teams we, Scotland, struggle against are France when they are on form, though it always feels like we can beat them, and Ireland. Plus obviously South Africa and New Zealand.
The only way we are going to beat those teams is if we suddenly grow a pack of forwards who are bigger, faster, stronger and meaner than them - where are these guys coming from?
Ireland/Leinster themselves struggle against teams that beat them up front.
Townsend isn't the problem, imo.
edit, btw, those four teams are ranked 1-4 in the world. Is anyone seriously suggesting we are a top 4 side, if only we had a different coach?
I honestly can't see it, myself.
Personally (and I am aware this isn't exactly insightful) I think it is particularly the front row where we fall short but also bruiser back rows - we have a good number of big beefy locks coming through who also have the nous and athleticism. We also have a great pool of dynamic back rows, but we don't really have a history of those big ugly hard bastards that South Africa, NZ and to an extent of late Ireland have in spades.
Enough time for a year in Japan if he wants it.KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 9:36 amI had a wee glimmer of hope he might want to finish his career at Glasgow but this more or less definitely takes him to retirement.
Lambos don't pay for themselves you know.Big D wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 10:00 amEnough time for a year in Japan if he wants it.KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 9:36 amI had a wee glimmer of hope he might want to finish his career at Glasgow but this more or less definitely takes him to retirement.
All right, I’ll put it another way. Wales have won titles in the recent past with squads no more talented than the one we have right now. Arguably less. I’m not saying we are a top 4 side, of course not. But I don’t think it’s any exaggeration to say we underachieve in the 6N.Big D wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 8:25 amDo we though? The bulk of our players play for Edinburgh and Glasgow, who rarely string two knock out wins together in the URC or the Champions Cup and regularly lose big games v Leinster (with one notable recent exception).Yr Alban wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 7:13 am https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... e4l7xjx3ro
TBH this is a bit depressing. The SRU saying they’re keen to give Toony another go at the World Cup. I was hoping that there might be some substance to the rumour they were going to replace him with Smith.
We have the players to put in a real 6N challenge, but I just can’t see it ever happening with Toony in charge. The last time we beat Ireland was in 2017, when Cotter was still in post.
I am not saying GT needs to stay on but I don't think we are suddenly going to see Scotland winning more games.
Yeah, I get a little annoyed with the idea we need to be a top 4 side to win one six nations.Yr Alban wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 11:43 amAll right, I’ll put it another way. Wales have won titles in the recent past with squads no more talented than the one we have right now. Arguably less. I’m not saying we are a top 4 side, of course not. But I don’t think it’s any exaggeration to say we underachieve in the 6N.Big D wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 8:25 amDo we though? The bulk of our players play for Edinburgh and Glasgow, who rarely string two knock out wins together in the URC or the Champions Cup and regularly lose big games v Leinster (with one notable recent exception).Yr Alban wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 7:13 am https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... e4l7xjx3ro
TBH this is a bit depressing. The SRU saying they’re keen to give Toony another go at the World Cup. I was hoping that there might be some substance to the rumour they were going to replace him with Smith.
We have the players to put in a real 6N challenge, but I just can’t see it ever happening with Toony in charge. The last time we beat Ireland was in 2017, when Cotter was still in post.
I am not saying GT needs to stay on but I don't think we are suddenly going to see Scotland winning more games.
Every 6N season is more or less a bust from the start, because we know we won’t beat Ireland. Yes, they are undeniably a good side, but other teams seem to manage to beat them. We rarely even show up.
Yr Alban wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 11:43 amAll right, I’ll put it another way. Wales have won titles in the recent past with squads no more talented than the one we have right now. Arguably less.Big D wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 8:25 amDo we though? The bulk of our players play for Edinburgh and Glasgow, who rarely string two knock out wins together in the URC or the Champions Cup and regularly lose big games v Leinster (with one notable recent exception).Yr Alban wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 7:13 am https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... e4l7xjx3ro
TBH this is a bit depressing. The SRU saying they’re keen to give Toony another go at the World Cup. I was hoping that there might be some substance to the rumour they were going to replace him with Smith.
We have the players to put in a real 6N challenge, but I just can’t see it ever happening with Toony in charge. The last time we beat Ireland was in 2017, when Cotter was still in post.
I am not saying GT needs to stay on but I don't think we are suddenly going to see Scotland winning more games.
Biffer wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 12:03 pmYeah, I get a little annoyed with the idea we need to be a top 4 side to win one six nations.Yr Alban wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 11:43 amAll right, I’ll put it another way. Wales have won titles in the recent past with squads no more talented than the one we have right now. Arguably less. I’m not saying we are a top 4 side, of course not. But I don’t think it’s any exaggeration to say we underachieve in the 6N.Big D wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 8:25 am
Do we though? The bulk of our players play for Edinburgh and Glasgow, who rarely string two knock out wins together in the URC or the Champions Cup and regularly lose big games v Leinster (with one notable recent exception).
I am not saying GT needs to stay on but I don't think we are suddenly going to see Scotland winning more games.
Every 6N season is more or less a bust from the start, because we know we won’t beat Ireland. Yes, they are undeniably a good side, but other teams seem to manage to beat them. We rarely even show up.
Confirms he wants to play top level rugby at least until the next world cup, so good for scotland.
I’d take our current backs over the backs in that side. You’re right that we struggle up front of course, but why that is is harder to put your finger on. Our first choice props were both selected for the Lions. Our back row guys weren’t, though as you say it was probably close. Where we look weaker is at lock and maybe No 8. But the fact that Cummings is also with the Lions tends to suggest that the other teams don’t have resources there that are way better than ours. Oh, and we could do with a hooker who can throw in properly.Tichtheid wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 12:08 pmYr Alban wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 11:43 amAll right, I’ll put it another way. Wales have won titles in the recent past with squads no more talented than the one we have right now. Arguably less.Big D wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 8:25 am
Do we though? The bulk of our players play for Edinburgh and Glasgow, who rarely string two knock out wins together in the URC or the Champions Cup and regularly lose big games v Leinster (with one notable recent exception).
I am not saying GT needs to stay on but I don't think we are suddenly going to see Scotland winning more games.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that - 1/2p, Liam Williams, Doc Roberts, Jonathan Davies, Mike Phillips, George North, Josh Adams, Dan Biggar, AWJ, Faletau, Warburton, Tips, Adam Jones, Ken Owens - that's just the guys off the top of my head. They were strong throughout the squad.
We currently have a very good set of backs but struggle up front - I don't think there are too many howlers in the selection of the Lions forwards vis a vis Scottish exclusions, some were close and are probably the next cab off the rank, ie Darge and Ritchie. Lots of people think Gilcho shouldn't be playing for Scotland let alone the Lions (I'm not one of them).
The Lions squad misses the French who are now more organised, disciplined and better from top to bottom than they have at any time during the professional era.Yr Alban wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 12:32 pmI’d take our current backs over the backs in that side. You’re right that we struggle up front of course, but why that is is harder to put your finger on. Our first choice props were both selected for the Lions. Our back row guys weren’t, though as you say it was probably close. Where we look weaker is at lock and maybe No 8. But the fact that Cummings is also with the Lions tends to suggest that the other teams don’t have resources there that are way better than ours. Oh, and we could do with a hooker who can throw in properly.Tichtheid wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 12:08 pmYr Alban wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 11:43 am
All right, I’ll put it another way. Wales have won titles in the recent past with squads no more talented than the one we have right now. Arguably less.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that - 1/2p, Liam Williams, Doc Roberts, Jonathan Davies, Mike Phillips, George North, Josh Adams, Dan Biggar, AWJ, Faletau, Warburton, Tips, Adam Jones, Ken Owens - that's just the guys off the top of my head. They were strong throughout the squad.
We currently have a very good set of backs but struggle up front - I don't think there are too many howlers in the selection of the Lions forwards vis a vis Scottish exclusions, some were close and are probably the next cab off the rank, ie Darge and Ritchie. Lots of people think Gilcho shouldn't be playing for Scotland let alone the Lions (I'm not one of them).
only 4th in points scored and tries scored.Biffer wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 12:48 pm Thought I'd have a wee look at the stats
In the 2025 Six Nations Scotland were
(good stats)
2nd in attacking 22 entries
1st in carries
1st in metres carried
2nd in metres gained
1st in total passes
2nd in offloads
1st in tackles made %ge
6th in tackles missed
1st in attacking ruck arrivals
2nd in breakdown steals
1st in lineout takes
1st in lineouts won
(bad stats)
6th in scrum win %ge
6th in lineout steals
5th in defensive ruck arrivals
The biggest caveat in there is that there isn't a %ge success for lineouts, which I think we'd be awful in tbh.
It feels very 'Andy Murray'. The best we've ever produced, but it just so happens to be a period of huge strength and the main competitors are better. Prime 2012/2013 Andy Murray playing today is the best player on the planet. Prime Scotland today in 2010-2018 or thereabouts wins at least one championship.Big D wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 1:29 pmThe Lions squad misses the French who are now more organised, disciplined and better from top to bottom than they have at any time during the professional era.Yr Alban wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 12:32 pmI’d take our current backs over the backs in that side. You’re right that we struggle up front of course, but why that is is harder to put your finger on. Our first choice props were both selected for the Lions. Our back row guys weren’t, though as you say it was probably close. Where we look weaker is at lock and maybe No 8. But the fact that Cummings is also with the Lions tends to suggest that the other teams don’t have resources there that are way better than ours. Oh, and we could do with a hooker who can throw in properly.Tichtheid wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 12:08 pm
I'm not sure I'd agree with that - 1/2p, Liam Williams, Doc Roberts, Jonathan Davies, Mike Phillips, George North, Josh Adams, Dan Biggar, AWJ, Faletau, Warburton, Tips, Adam Jones, Ken Owens - that's just the guys off the top of my head. They were strong throughout the squad.
We currently have a very good set of backs but struggle up front - I don't think there are too many howlers in the selection of the Lions forwards vis a vis Scottish exclusions, some were close and are probably the next cab off the rank, ie Darge and Ritchie. Lots of people think Gilcho shouldn't be playing for Scotland let alone the Lions (I'm not one of them).
We have the best set of professionals we have had, but so do France, Italy, and although Ireland are at the end of their golden period are still operating at a high level. England are back on the right path too with masses of resources.
Several of those Welsh players in their prime walk into the current Scotland 23.
Fair point about Murray. If he had been born 10 years earlier or 10 years later, he’d have a pile of Grand Slam wins rather than the 3 he actually got. Federer beat Mark Phillippousis to win his first major at Wimbledon. Murray made it to 9 GS finals and had to play Djokovic in 7 of them. And I have no idea how many times he, Federer or Nadal knocked Murray out earlier in tournaments.KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 2:43 pmIt feels very 'Andy Murray'. The best we've ever produced, but it just so happens to be a period of huge strength and the main competitors are better. Prime 2012/2013 Andy Murray playing today is the best player on the planet. Prime Scotland today in 2010-2018 or thereabouts wins at least one championship.Big D wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 1:29 pmThe Lions squad misses the French who are now more organised, disciplined and better from top to bottom than they have at any time during the professional era.Yr Alban wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 12:32 pm
I’d take our current backs over the backs in that side. You’re right that we struggle up front of course, but why that is is harder to put your finger on. Our first choice props were both selected for the Lions. Our back row guys weren’t, though as you say it was probably close. Where we look weaker is at lock and maybe No 8. But the fact that Cummings is also with the Lions tends to suggest that the other teams don’t have resources there that are way better than ours. Oh, and we could do with a hooker who can throw in properly.
We have the best set of professionals we have had, but so do France, Italy, and although Ireland are at the end of their golden period are still operating at a high level. England are back on the right path too with masses of resources.
Several of those Welsh players in their prime walk into the current Scotland 23.
In Grand Slam tournamentsYr Alban wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 3:42 pmFair point about Murray. If he had been born 10 years earlier or 10 years later, he’d have a pile of Grand Slam wins rather than the 3 he actually got. Federer beat Mark Phillippousis to win his first major at Wimbledon. Murray made it to 9 GS finals and had to play Djokovic in 7 of them. And I have no idea how many times he, Federer or Nadal knocked Murray out earlier in tournaments.KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 2:43 pmIt feels very 'Andy Murray'. The best we've ever produced, but it just so happens to be a period of huge strength and the main competitors are better. Prime 2012/2013 Andy Murray playing today is the best player on the planet. Prime Scotland today in 2010-2018 or thereabouts wins at least one championship.Big D wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 1:29 pm
The Lions squad misses the French who are now more organised, disciplined and better from top to bottom than they have at any time during the professional era.
We have the best set of professionals we have had, but so do France, Italy, and although Ireland are at the end of their golden period are still operating at a high level. England are back on the right path too with masses of resources.
Several of those Welsh players in their prime walk into the current Scotland 23.
He's pretty much first choice when fit, which is a hell of an achievement in that squad.
It's painful to say, but let's be honest it's not surprising.Tichtheid wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 5:37 pm
It pains me to say it, but he's improved beyond measure since leaving Edinburgh, he's very good under the highball now, his defence is no longer an issue, he doesn't seem to get himself out of position and his support work at the breakdown is as good as anyone on the park - something I don't think I ever saw him do in an Edinburgh shirt is get stuck into a ruck and shunt the guy he's rucking against.
He still has all the pace and distribution skills, it's these other parts of his game which have come on leaps and bounds.
Just have to win one gamePunter15 wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 8:40 pm Scotland U20 Men squad for the 2025 World Rugby U20 Championship
Forwards
Ollie Blyth-Lafferty (Edinburgh Rugby)
Dylan Cockburn (Melrose RFC)
Freddy Douglas – CO-CAPTAIN (Edinburgh Rugby)
Oliver Duncan (Edinburgh Rugby)
Oliver Finlayson-Russell (University of St Andrews)
Mark Fyffe (University of Edinburgh)
Bart Godsell (Loughborough University)
Dan Halkon (Glasgow Warriors)
Reuben Logan (Northampton Saints)
Oliver McKenna (Glasgow Warriors)
Charlie Moss (Montpellier)
Will Pearce (Cardiff Metropolitan University/Bristol Bears)
Joe Roberts (Glasgow Warriors)
Jake Shearer (Glasgow Warriors)
Seb Stephen (Glasgow Warriors)
Jamie Stewart (Edinburgh Rugby)
Ben White (Melrose RFC/Edinburgh Rugby)
Backs
Jack Brown (Edinburgh Rugby)
Isaac Coates (Edinburgh Rugby)
Noah Cowan (Brunel University/Ealing Trailfinders)
Jed Findlay (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Hocking (Edinburgh Rugby)
Angus Hunter (Heriot’s Rugby)
Nairn Moncrieff (Edinburgh Rugby)
Hector Patterson (Edinburgh Rugby)
Matthew Urwin (Glasgow Warriors)
Cameron van Wyk (Ayr RFC)
Johnny Ventisei – CO-CAPTAIN (Glasgow Warriors)
Fergus Watson (Glasgow Warriors)
Kerr Yule (Glasgow Warriors)
Plenty of talent in there but a very tough group.
Extremely excited to see him back in a Scotland shirt. He’s really the leader of the next generation of world class players after Hogg and then Russell. I think he will embrace itTichtheid wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 5:37 pm
It pains me to say it, but he's improved beyond measure since leaving Edinburgh, he's very good under the highball now, his defence is no longer an issue, he doesn't seem to get himself out of position and his support work at the breakdown is as good as anyone on the park - something I don't think I ever saw him do in an Edinburgh shirt is get stuck into a ruck and shunt the guy he's rucking against.
He still has all the pace and distribution skills, it's these other parts of his game which have come on leaps and bounds.
proper MAGA man.Slick wrote: Fri Jun 20, 2025 8:00 am Not sure if it has been covered, but Rufus McLean in the USA squad
I was winding up to be outraged but turns out its free. Good stuff!Tichtheid wrote: Fri Jun 20, 2025 9:46 am
Rugby Pass, apparently - same as England v France tomorrow
We’ve been weak mentally and not composed or patient enough when it really matters. That’s on Toonie.Yr Alban wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 11:43 amAll right, I’ll put it another way. Wales have won titles in the recent past with squads no more talented than the one we have right now. Arguably less. I’m not saying we are a top 4 side, of course not. But I don’t think it’s any exaggeration to say we underachieve in the 6N.Big D wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 8:25 amDo we though? The bulk of our players play for Edinburgh and Glasgow, who rarely string two knock out wins together in the URC or the Champions Cup and regularly lose big games v Leinster (with one notable recent exception).Yr Alban wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 7:13 am https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... e4l7xjx3ro
TBH this is a bit depressing. The SRU saying they’re keen to give Toony another go at the World Cup. I was hoping that there might be some substance to the rumour they were going to replace him with Smith.
We have the players to put in a real 6N challenge, but I just can’t see it ever happening with Toony in charge. The last time we beat Ireland was in 2017, when Cotter was still in post.
I am not saying GT needs to stay on but I don't think we are suddenly going to see Scotland winning more games.
Every 6N season is more or less a bust from the start, because we know we won’t beat Ireland. Yes, they are undeniably a good side, but other teams seem to manage to beat them. We rarely even show up.
That’s a debate for the media only. In reality, there is no debate.
ExactlyKingBlairhorn wrote: Fri Jun 20, 2025 7:17 pmThat’s a debate for the media only. In reality, there is no debate.
Yeah, was thinking that myselfKingBlairhorn wrote: Fri Jun 20, 2025 7:38 pm Shame it’s sione at 13 and not Aki. I think it would work better the other way around.