NPR

Ping was ripping it up. Anything that encourages racing rather than watching power meters is good in my book. Pog agrees with me I reckon. He loves a good attack just because.

Vingegaard has been taking some care not to give much away in interviews in the first half of this race... saying only that he was happy to 'only lose' small chunks of time and suggesting he's happy with his plan. I read that as his strength improving with the conditioning of the first week. Seeing him give over 30secs to Pigi today and then ride it back and beat him over the line in a wobbly sprint after a hard climb suggests he is back on terms. Now we see if the fatigue of contesting the Giro starts to work on Pogi...

and whether Remco has the balls to go racing.

Guy Smiley wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:07 pm Vingegaard has been taking some care not to give much away in interviews in the first half of this race... saying only that he was happy to 'only lose' small chunks of time and suggesting he's happy with his plan. I read that as his strength improving with the conditioning of the first week. Seeing him give over 30secs to Pigi today and then ride it back and beat him over the line in a wobbly sprint after a hard climb suggests he is back on terms. Now we see if the fatigue of contesting the Giro starts to work on Pogi...

and whether Remco has the balls to go racing.

Yes, pretty amazing stage, had almost everything. Can see this going deep now.

Some fat cunt caught on camera twice throwing crisps into the face of Pog and Vinny near the top of the final climb today and quite likely others too.

I hope the find him and send him down the mountain face first.

https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/tour- ... tory.shtml

ITV4 commentators spent 20 minutes trying to build the tension saying Pod was beginning to look tired and Vin could take advantage.

Vin looks backwards once and Pod just fucks off up the hill

Slick wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 3:10 pm ITV4 commentators spent 20 minutes trying to build the tension saying Pod was beginning to look tired and Vin could take advantage.

Vin looks backwards once and Pod just fucks off up the hill

I wondered if the effort on Saturday might hurt Pogi and allow Vingegaard an opportunity but Pogi just rode his wheel with ease and then Vingegaard flicked his arm and said fuck off, leave me alone. Pogi has the double now, I think.

Pogi is Pogi, he'll do what he wants.

But I have so much respect for Vinny. In the past he has had such an awesome team around him, allowing him to dictate the race situation etc. This year he doesn't, and obviously had a terrible build up to the tour. But jeez, the little man is a tough fucker. I know he gave up 1min 8sec, but when Pogi went, Vinny looked fucked and it couldve been an utter car crash.

Utterly ridiculous pace up the last mountain. Even Evenepoel smashed the existing KOM, and he dropped 3 minutes on Pogacar.

TV analysts over here saying it's the culmination of new developments that started during Covid, when teams had a lot of downtime so looked deep into all sorts of marginal gains. Main one apparently is the fuelling strategy, which allows the lead riders to arrive at the foot of the last mountain fresh as a daisy with tanks full, even on a 200k, 5 climb stage like yesterday. Also rolling resistance of the tires has gone down significantly over the last few years, according to Tom Dumoulin.

Although as it's cycling, the D word will never be far away.

clydecloggie wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:12 am Utterly ridiculous pace up the last mountain. Even Evenepoel smashed the existing KOM, and he dropped 3 minutes on Pogacar.

TV analysts over here saying it's the culmination of new developments that started during Covid, when teams had a lot of downtime so looked deep into all sorts of marginal gains. Main one apparently is the fuelling strategy, which allows the lead riders to arrive at the foot of the last mountain fresh as a daisy with tanks full, even on a 200k, 5 climb stage like yesterday. Also rolling resistance of the tires has gone down significantly over the last few years, according to Tom Dumoulin.

Although as it's cycling, the D word will never be far away.

I thought it was odd that Orla and McEwan were testing ketones on air the other day.

I don't know the science behind it, apart from Lance constantly promoting them on his podcast. But any product that is marketed as "take this and you'll have way more energy," in a sport with a history of doping such as cycling, seems a bit dodgy.

Watching Pogi going up that climb yesterday in the big ring, doing 28kmph on a 8% gradient . . . . . God I hope he's natty!

Jim Lahey wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:18 am

clydecloggie wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:12 am Utterly ridiculous pace up the last mountain. Even Evenepoel smashed the existing KOM, and he dropped 3 minutes on Pogacar.

TV analysts over here saying it's the culmination of new developments that started during Covid, when teams had a lot of downtime so looked deep into all sorts of marginal gains. Main one apparently is the fuelling strategy, which allows the lead riders to arrive at the foot of the last mountain fresh as a daisy with tanks full, even on a 200k, 5 climb stage like yesterday. Also rolling resistance of the tires has gone down significantly over the last few years, according to Tom Dumoulin.

Although as it's cycling, the D word will never be far away.

I thought it was odd that Orla and McEwan were testing ketones on air the other day.

I don't know the science behind it, apart from Lance constantly promoting them on his podcast. But any product that is marketed as "take this and you'll have way more energy," in a sport with a history of doping such as cycling, seems a bit dodgy.

Watching Pogi going up that climb yesterday in the big ring, doing 28kmph on a 8% gradient . . . . . God I hope he's natty!

When I did my sports science degree 30 years ago, we were already discussing ketones. They're the fuel of last resort in the human body, generated from breaking down proteins - it's why in the most dire of circumstances (like, to be honest, racing through France at full pelt for three weeks), you will use your own muscle tissue as fuel by converting muscle into ketones, it's why riders at the end of the Tour look leaner, with more pronounced veins, than before the Tour.

It's not a very efficient source of energy though, which is why the science mainly focussed on optimising carbohydrate use. With that pretty much achieved, attention turned back to ketones as the 'spare fuel tank' marginal gain. Really mixed views on it from the peloton, some swear by it, some hate it, some thought they actually performed worse while using it. Because it's essentially food and a natural fuel for the human body, it's highly unlikely ketones will ever be considered a bannable PED.

I read something the other day that mentioned low oxygen regimes. I’ll try and find it… I think the premise was to somehow duplicate the sort of gains found in altitude training but doing so while competing.

I’ve had personal experience of the boost high altitude gives you in stamina. Mine was casual exposure on a holiday followed up weeks later with a first ride for months after breaking some bones and being laid up. The effect was phenomenal.

Naturally, all sorts of effort will have gone into trying to develop easier or more accessible ways to duplicate that effect within the metabolism also noting that Pogi still has quite a bit of mass to his frame compared to Vigegaard. Of course their build up has been very different but Pogi has already won the Giro and looks as fresh as when he started that race.

Fastest 3 times for climbing recorded yesterday beating Pantani. Pog 6.97 w p kg for 50 minutes.

Looks at scales….

Guy Smiley wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:35 am I read something the other day that mentioned low oxygen regimes. I’ll try and find it… I think the premise was to somehow duplicate the sort of gains found in altitude training but doing so while competing.

https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling/con ... rformances

An agressive approach called carbon monoxide inhalation steps into the scientifically new and much riskier realm of inhaling the lightly poisonous gas (carbon monoxide) for the express purpose of performance enhancement. A growing body of recent scientific research suggests CO inhalation can have a powerful impact on measures of aerobic capacity like VO2max, or maximal oxygen uptake.

https://escapecollective.com/exclusive- ... de-recipe/

At least three teams, including the Visma-Lease a Bike and UAE Team Emirates squads of top contenders Jonas Vingegaard and Tadej Pogačar, and Israel-Premier Tech have access to an expensive device called a carbon monoxide rebreather, which allows for the precise dosing of carbon monoxide into the lungs.

...
Visma, UAE and IPT confirmed they have access to a rebreathing device and use the technique for measurement purposes.

Thanks IH... that's it. I remembered something about Carbon Monoxide but thought that was too bonkers and my mind was playing tricks on me.

The first part of this clip outlines the data returned from that insane stage...

Shame Dan Lloyd had to leave Eurosport. Comfortably the best pundit around. Although King "gonna be an interesting/difficult one" Kelly is always good comedy.

Carlton Kirby however

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 1:36 pm

Guy Smiley wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:35 am I read something the other day that mentioned low oxygen regimes. I’ll try and find it… I think the premise was to somehow duplicate the sort of gains found in altitude training but doing so while competing.

https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling/con ... rformances

An agressive approach called carbon monoxide inhalation steps into the scientifically new and much riskier realm of inhaling the lightly poisonous gas (carbon monoxide) for the express purpose of performance enhancement. A growing body of recent scientific research suggests CO inhalation can have a powerful impact on measures of aerobic capacity like VO2max, or maximal oxygen uptake.

https://escapecollective.com/exclusive- ... de-recipe/

At least three teams, including the Visma-Lease a Bike and UAE Team Emirates squads of top contenders Jonas Vingegaard and Tadej Pogačar, and Israel-Premier Tech have access to an expensive device called a carbon monoxide rebreather, which allows for the precise dosing of carbon monoxide into the lungs.

...
Visma, UAE and IPT confirmed they have access to a rebreathing device and use the technique for measurement purposes.

Rebreathers have been around for a couple of decades in the military and oil&gas world. They are used for escaping underwater spaces without breathing apparatus.

Can’t say I have felt the anaerobic benefits from using them in drills!

clydecloggie wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:12 am Utterly ridiculous pace up the last mountain. Even Evenepoel smashed the existing KOM, and he dropped 3 minutes on Pogacar.

TV analysts over here saying it's the culmination of new developments that started during Covid, when teams had a lot of downtime so looked deep into all sorts of marginal gains. Main one apparently is the fuelling strategy, which allows the lead riders to arrive at the foot of the last mountain fresh as a daisy with tanks full, even on a 200k, 5 climb stage like yesterday. Also rolling resistance of the tires has gone down significantly over the last few years, according to Tom Dumoulin.

Although as it's cycling, the D word will never be far away.

The gains don't seem particularly 'marginal' if the guys are smashing records by minutes.

The ‘record’ was held by Pantani since 1998. KOM is a reference to Strava data and while some of the pros do log into Strava it’s still mainly an amateur or lower level data set. Advances in tech have been enormous since 1998, the work out into tyres and rolling resistance alone would make your hair curl.

What is interesting is the power output analysis that is being bandied around. That’s where any investigation should look… riders who can deliver sustained output for 40 minutes at the end of a hard stage is well worth understanding and there’s more to it than shrieking about juicing.

Guy Smiley wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 8:00 am The ‘record’ was held by Pantani since 1998. KOM is a reference to Strava data and while some of the pros do log into Strava it’s still mainly an amateur or lower level data set. Advances in tech have been enormous since 1998, the work out into tyres and rolling resistance alone would make your hair curl.

What is interesting is the power output analysis that is being bandied around. That’s where any investigation should look… riders who can deliver sustained output for 40 minutes at the end of a hard stage is well worth understanding and there’s more to it than shrieking about juicing.

I have friends in both the GB Olympic Association and GB Cycling.

One of the reasons cycling was targetted for medals was that it was deemed to be miles behind most other sports in terms of its application of sports science. The equipment was similar. There was very little actual science applied to developments and more 'feel'.

The UK and Sky came along and turned that on its head by applying what was pretty normal sports science in other sports, and a much higher degree of mechanical science. The other teams (and manufacturers) have not just caught up, they have leapfrogged.

The other thing that has improved dramatically in cycling is the identification of cycling 'freaks'. The net is being cast much wider and a lot deeper than in the past. There are more very talented riders being identified, and so when that is combined with everything else, the peak is higher than in the past.

I'm amazed that Lance still gets to pontificate on stuff like this.
https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/new ... w-profile/

Uncle fester wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2024 3:59 pm I'm amazed that Lance still gets to pontificate on stuff like this.
https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/new ... w-profile/

I saw a headline quote from him and just scrolled past. Fuck him. He's never been able to accept his part in his own drama and continues to throw shit at anything he thinks will give him some airtime.

The media are fucking hopeless. Earlier in the tour there ws the whole fiasco 'debate' over whether Cav is better than Mercx. Puerile irrelevancies that illustrate the frenzy of ignorance that goes on behind the campaign to sell headlines.

weegie01 wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 11:12 am

Guy Smiley wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 8:00 am The ‘record’ was held by Pantani since 1998. KOM is a reference to Strava data and while some of the pros do log into Strava it’s still mainly an amateur or lower level data set. Advances in tech have been enormous since 1998, the work out into tyres and rolling resistance alone would make your hair curl.

What is interesting is the power output analysis that is being bandied around. That’s where any investigation should look… riders who can deliver sustained output for 40 minutes at the end of a hard stage is well worth understanding and there’s more to it than shrieking about juicing.

I have friends in both the GB Olympic Association and GB Cycling.

One of the reasons cycling was targetted for medals was that it was deemed to be miles behind most other sports in terms of its application of sports science. The equipment was similar. There was very little actual science applied to developments and more 'feel'.

The UK and Sky came along and turned that on its head by applying what was pretty normal sports science in other sports, and a much higher degree of mechanical science. The other teams (and manufacturers) have not just caught up, they have leapfrogged.

The other thing that has improved dramatically in cycling is the identification of cycling 'freaks'. The net is being cast much wider and a lot deeper than in the past. There are more very talented riders being identified, and so when that is combined with everything else, the peak is higher than in the past.

I had a mate who was leading a team on the development of a new part for the gears for SKY/GB cycling back in the day. It was a pretty big team working on a fairly small part for that marginal gain.

I’ve also read a bit about widening the net to get more freaks, and I absolutely love the Tour. But I have to say it’s beginning to get a little stinky again to me, didn’t Podegar deny then remember this Carbon Monoxide thing the other day?

Some of the power numbers are fairly incredible tbf.

I'm a former backrower weighing in at 100kgs. I'm not as fit as I'd used to be, but I'd probably do a 5km in sub 22mins and have an FTP of 348watts according to Zwift. I've only returned to the gym in the last few weeks and would be doing sets of 5 at 100kgs squating. So I'd consider myself in reasonable shape for a big lad in his mid 30s and a father of 3 young kids, although probably carrying 10kgs of blubber that I shouldn't.

So hearing Pog at 65kgs or whatever he is, doing 7w/kg for 40mins is mindblowing to me. I want to subscribe to the genetic freak theory as the alternative is obviously not so good. But I guess if we accused everyone that produced an epic performance in a sporting event of doing drugs, we'd be a fairly cynical bunch. They do nothing but train to put in these types of performances, backed up with being freaks, so us mere mortals shouldn't expect to understand them.

The Carbon Monoxide stuff is mental. Long term low level exposure to carbon monoxide causes neurological damage. I wouldn't be surprised if in ten years there's cyclist after cyclist developing major disorders and this becomes a huge scandal.

Jim Lahey wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 9:27 am Some of the power numbers are fairly incredible tbf.

I'm a former backrower weighing in at 100kgs. I'm not as fit as I'd used to be, but I'd probably do a 5km in sub 22mins and have an FTP of 348watts according to Zwift. I've only returned to the gym in the last few weeks and would be doing sets of 5 at 100kgs squating. So I'd consider myself in reasonable shape for a big lad in his mid 30s and a father of 3 young kids, although probably carrying 10kgs of blubber that I shouldn't.

So hearing Pog at 65kgs or whatever he is, doing 7w/kg for 40mins is mindblowing to me. I want to subscribe to the genetic freak theory as the alternative is obviously not so good. But I guess if we accused everyone that produced an epic performance in a sporting event of doing drugs, we'd be a fairly cynical bunch. They do nothing but train to put in these types of performances, backed up with being freaks, so us mere mortals shouldn't expect to understand them.

The genetic freak argument doesn't wash.

Egan Bernal won the TdF in 2019. The numbers say in the 2024 TdF he was riding at the same performance level.

He came 29th.

It's not a couple of riders. It's whole teams have burst past former winners.

It's happened before - late 80s, then again late 90s.

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 5:42 pm It's not a couple of riders. It's whole teams have burst past former winners.

Really?

Which teams?

Guy Smiley wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 6:05 pm

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 5:42 pm It's not a couple of riders. It's whole teams have burst past former winners.

Really?

Which teams?

Visma and Emirates the obvious ones, and Emirates had a relatively weak team previously.

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 7:52 pm

Guy Smiley wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 6:05 pm

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 5:42 pm It's not a couple of riders. It's whole teams have burst past former winners.

Really?

Which teams?

Visma and Emirates the obvious ones, and Emirates had a relatively weak team previously.

The whole teams have... burst past previous winners?

What do you mean by that?

Guy Smiley wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 7:59 pm

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 7:52 pm

Guy Smiley wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 6:05 pm

Really?

Which teams?

Visma and Emirates the obvious ones, and Emirates had a relatively weak team previously.

The whole teams have... burst past previous winners?

What do you mean by that?

The top teams have several riders all finishing higher up the GC than a former winner who's riding at his best. There's been a massive improvement in performances - particularly in the last 3 years. This has happened before and the answer the last couple of times wasn't improved diet/training or being a genetic freak.

Biffer wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 3:59 pm The Carbon Monoxide stuff is mental. Long term low level exposure to carbon monoxide causes neurological damage. I wouldn't be surprised if in ten years there's cyclist after cyclist developing major disorders and this becomes a huge scandal.

Pogacar already forgot he had done it

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 9:20 pm

Guy Smiley wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 7:59 pm

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 7:52 pm
Visma and Emirates the obvious ones, and Emirates had a relatively weak team previously.

The whole teams have... burst past previous winners?

What do you mean by that?

The top teams have several riders all finishing higher up the GC than a former winner who's riding at his best. There's been a massive improvement in performances - particularly in the last 3 years. This has happened before and the answer the last couple of times wasn't improved diet/training or being a genetic freak.

You started out by saying whole teams had burst past previous winners. Now you're changing your wording.

The only direct comparison that's been made this year was to the 'record' held by Pantani on Plateau de Beille... which he set in 1998 on a bike that didn't have the benefit of the tech that has gone into development since then. There's a host of developments to consider there alone, not least of which is the improvements in tyres and rolling resistance.

I'm not sure which other former winner you could be referring to as the first and second placegetters this year have won the tour over the last 5 years. The only other past winner still riding anywhere near their best is Egan Bernal and his team this year were a disappointing flop. Who else is 'further up the GC than a former winner who is riding at his best'?

Biffer wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 3:59 pm The Carbon Monoxide stuff is mental. Long term low level exposure to carbon monoxide causes neurological damage. I wouldn't be surprised if in ten years there's cyclist after cyclist developing major disorders and this becomes a huge scandal.

Agree. If they don't ban this shit the sport is screwed.

Slick wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 9:37 pm

Biffer wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 3:59 pm The Carbon Monoxide stuff is mental. Long term low level exposure to carbon monoxide causes neurological damage. I wouldn't be surprised if in ten years there's cyclist after cyclist developing major disorders and this becomes a huge scandal.

Pogacar already forgot he had done it

Funny, but also not funny. Top athletes will always do dangerous things to their body now to win and "Meh, screw my potential health issues in 10 years time!" It's how their brains are wired and why they are successful.

Guy Smiley wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2024 5:44 pm

Uncle fester wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2024 3:59 pm I'm amazed that Lance still gets to pontificate on stuff like this.
https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/new ... w-profile/

I saw a headline quote from him and just scrolled past. Fuck him. He's never been able to accept his part in his own drama and continues to throw shit at anything he thinks will give him some airtime.

The media are fucking hopeless. Earlier in the tour there ws the whole fiasco 'debate' over whether Cav is better than Mercx. Puerile irrelevancies that illustrate the frenzy of ignorance that goes on behind the campaign to sell headlines.

Glad it's not just me thinking he needs to keep his mouth shut.

Really enjoying La Vuelta so far.

The route looks absolutely horrific, which is always fun to watch. Some of the mountain stages still to come look barbaric

Roglic looking strong despite fucking up and letting O'Connor get a big advantage. UAE yet to fire a shot. Enric Mas not looking as hopeless as he normally does. Carapaz not at the races so far.

Tomorrow and next week should be fun.

Don't think I've ever seen something quite as punishing as yesterday's finale Looked like a standard Cat 1 finish for about 14km, with the Hardknott Pass thrown at the top for a laugh.

Vlasov's face chasing Castrillo at the end was a picture

Some performance from Castrillo, Ineos may have found their new GC man with those types of efforts

Really feel for WvA... he was on fire.

Guy Smiley wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 2:21 am Really feel for WvA... he was on fire.

Didn't need to be in the breakaway on yesterdays stage

Jim Lahey wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 9:24 am Don't think I've ever seen something quite as punishing as yesterday's finale Looked like a standard Cat 1 finish for about 14km, with the Hardknott Pass thrown at the top for a laugh.

Vlasov's face chasing Castrillo at the end was a picture

Some performance from Castrillo, Ineos may have found their new GC man with those types of efforts

I love the bonkers goat finishes.

Vaslov looked like he was about to burst out laughing at one point