NPR

Grandpa wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:53 pm I thought.. the NZ loose trio were superb. Particularly Papalii and Ardie who should have been MOTM rather than - I'll kick aimlessly instead of taking advantage of the overlap Barrett.
Havilii is a worry on attack. Against SA and Wales he has really struggled against these narrow defences. Maybe time to give Quinn Tupaea a go.
Sam Whitelock certainly made a difference to the lineouts and the decision making.

I concur.

Looks like BBBR could be gone for the rest of the tour. Probably harsh, but I'm quite relieved Tuipulotu's back in NZ and Vaaí is now likely to start more often. Could also be a massive opportunity for Josh Lord to get some serious playing time.

So good to see our bench making a positive difference again.

Gumboot wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:59 pm

Grandpa wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:53 pm I thought.. the NZ loose trio were superb. Particularly Papalii and Ardie who should have been MOTM rather than - I'll kick aimlessly instead of taking advantage of the overlap Barrett.
Havilii is a worry on attack. Against SA and Wales he has really struggled against these narrow defences. Maybe time to give Quinn Tupaea a go.
Sam Whitelock certainly made a difference to the lineouts and the decision making.

I concur.

Looks like BBBR could be gone for the rest of the tour. Probably harsh, but I'm quite relieved Tuipulotu's back in NZ and Vaaí is now likely to start more often. Could also be a massive opportunity for Josh Lord to get some serious playing time.

So good to see our bench making a positive difference again.

Retallick gone? Bugger.. just as we finally got him and Sam W back together again... Vaa'i looks like he should be a 6... Bit short for a test lock.. but I like him as an athlete.

Grandpa wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:21 pmRetallick gone? Bugger.. just as we finally got him and Sam W back together again...

Don't think there's been any official word yet, but when the medic came on I'm pretty sure Retallick just said "It's fucked" before leaving the field. Same shoulder he did against SA in Wgtn in 2019 iirc.

Edit: nope, just checked and it was his left shoulder last time.

Gumboot wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:47 pm

Grandpa wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:21 pmRetallick gone? Bugger.. just as we finally got him and Sam W back together again...

Don't think there's been any official word yet, but when the medic came on I'm pretty sure Retallick just said "It's fucked" before leaving the field. Same shoulder he did against SA in Wgtn in 2019 iirc.

Edit: nope, just checked and it was his left shoulder last time.

Well I guess at least it's not just before a world cup!

I felt sorry for Havili. The ball would arrive at the same time as the opposition. The pass from TJP was both slow and straight at BB so he couldn't run onto it. By the time he wanted to pass it, the only option left was the hospital variety.

Put him with better players inside him and he has that little bit of time to perform his magic.

Tupaea is better though

When Mo’unga came on, did he to into 15 replacing JB?

Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:33 am When Mo’unga came on, did he to into 15 replacing JB?

Didn't he go to 12?

Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:33 am When Mo’unga came on, did he to into 15 replacing JB?

Didn't he go to 12?

Retallick's injury not as bad as first feared. Said his arm's a bit sore but should be all good.

Phew!

Enzedder wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:42 am

Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:33 am When Mo’unga came on, did he to into 15 replacing JB?

Didn't he go to 12?

Neither 15 nor 12 makes a lot of sense for a specialist 10.

Gumboot wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:36 am Retallick's injury not as bad as first feared. Said his arm's a bit sore but should be all good.

Phew!

Glad to hear that.

Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:36 am

Enzedder wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:42 am

Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:33 am When Mo’unga came on, did he to into 15 replacing JB?

Didn't he go to 12?

Neither 15 nor 12 makes a lot of sense for a specialist 10.

Not sure there was much emphasis on maintaining a traditional backline set-up in the last quarter. As far as I can figure out, Reece replaced Havili and went to left wing, with Rieko going to centre and ALB to 2nd 5, then a few minutes later Mo'anga replaced Jordan and went to...fullback? With Jordie to...right wing??

Enzedder wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:30 am I felt sorry for Havili. The ball would arrive at the same time as the opposition. The pass from TJP was both slow and straight at BB so he couldn't run onto it. By the time he wanted to pass it, the only option left was the hospital variety.

Put him with better players inside him and he has that little bit of time to perform his magic.

Tupaea is better though

Yep, it all starts with Perenara. I guess most halfbacks' passing would suffer in comparison to Aaron Smith's, but the step down to TJ is massive.

If only Havili had been better on defence than he was on attack, but unfortunately he wasn't. Early in the second half, he was easily beaten by Priestland, then soon after he made no effort at all to contest a high kick, even though he was the closest defender and had plenty of time to jump for it, but he showed no urgency and Wales easily claimed the catch - with Havili promptly conceding a penalty for not rolling away.

It's Tupaea time.

Pleased with many aspects of that performance. I enjoyed that the ABs played tighter and more direct around the fringes early on and kicked for posts. Treating it like a proper test match.

Savea obviously man of the match. Counter-intuitively, because he's relatively small but dynamic and fast, people often assume he's best utilised in the wider channels. However we have a lot of looses that are skilful and athletic in space eg. Ioane, Sotutu, Jacobson. It's also widely recognised that his real point of difference is his ability to make metres post contact and often get his arms free, so today's game plan which was much more direct around the fringes would certainly suit his game and it should be no surprise that he carried so well.

We should also look to employ more direct close quarter carrying tactics against physical forward packs and rush defences, as attempting to consistently go wide and out the back early (as we did against SA) really plays into rush defences hands. Their centre's and wings just jam on that wide receiver and shut the play down, and the big tight fives just sit in the middle of the park waiting for the next set piece. It's far more effective to make them tackle around the fringes and get off the ground. This was effective against a strong rush defence in the first Lions test in 2017, but the ABs then went away from it and tried to go around the blitz at every opportunity since, with mixed results. There's no shame in being direct for several phases, taking some punishment before winning three points either.

There's also nothing more emasculating psychologically for a pack of forwards to be told by your coach that the other team has a strong forward pack so we're gonna try to avoid confronting them, under the guise of 'running them around.'

Gumboot wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:39 am

Enzedder wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:30 am I felt sorry for Havili. The ball would arrive at the same time as the opposition. The pass from TJP was both slow and straight at BB so he couldn't run onto it. By the time he wanted to pass it, the only option left was the hospital variety.

Put him with better players inside him and he has that little bit of time to perform his magic.

Tupaea is better though

Yep, it all starts with Perenara. I guess most halfbacks' passing would suffer in comparison to Aaron Smith's, but the step down to TJ is massive.

If only Havili had been better on defence than he was on attack, but unfortunately he wasn't. Early in the second half, he was easily beaten by Priestland, then soon after he made no effort at all to contest a high kick, even though he was the closest defender and had plenty of time to jump for it, but he showed no urgency and Wales easily claimed the catch - with Havili promptly conceding a penalty for not rolling away.

It's Tupaea time.

Havili performed well in the early tests against less abrasive defences and people put the cart before the horse as he's struggled against more aggressive linespeed. The modern 12's primary role (although not exclusive) is to get over the gainline and provide an array of short passing and offloading skills to bend the line in attack, as well as provide dominant and neutral gainline tackles. We haven't played a second playmaker 12 since Mauger and McAlister in 2007 and the game has moved on from then. This is especially crucial for this current ABs team as they aren't employing a large power winger to use for first phase gainline plays as they did previously with Julian Savea, Rocococko etc. We won't win a World Cup with at least a couple of backs that can guarantee us some gainline ball carries into aggressive defence. Tupaea may be that guy, has looked good so far. I'm hoping Clarke comes back strong next season also.

Van_Damme wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:59 amHavili performed well in the early tests against less abrasive defences and people put the cart before the horse as he's struggled against more aggressive linespeed. The modern 12's primary role (although not exclusive) is to get over the gainline and provide an array of short passing and offloading skills to bend the line in attack, as well as provide dominant and neutral gainline tackles. We haven't played a second playmaker 12 since Mauger and McAlister in 2007 and the game has moved on from then. This is especially crucial for this current ABs team as they aren't employing a large power winger to use for first phase gainline plays as they did previously with Julian Savea, Rocococko etc. We won't win a World Cup with at least a couple of backs that can guarantee us some gainline ball carries into aggressive defence. Tupaea may be that guy, has looked good so far. I'm hoping Clarke comes back strong next season also.

Welcome abored.

Agree with your points re Havili. He struggles with the consistent physicality needed at 12 against the best sides, whereas Tupaea seems to relish it. And like Vaaí, he has great anticipation and makes good decisions. Then there's his proven leadership ability.

I'm not sold on Clarke, and suspect he may have been another one-hit blockbuster with little else in the toolbox. Hope he proves me wrong.

convoluted wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:21 pm England-Black Ferns tomorrow morning might be a much better watch than this one.

I didn't bother. This was always going to be a pointless encounter but the WRU clearly wants to rob its punters.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:53 am

convoluted wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:21 pm England-Black Ferns tomorrow morning might be a much better watch than this one.

I didn't bother. This was always going to be a pointless encounter but the WRU clearly wants to rob its punters.

??????

It’s on today, and it’s this afternoon

Ymx wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:08 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:53 am

convoluted wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:21 pm England-Black Ferns tomorrow morning might be a much better watch than this one.

I didn't bother. This was always going to be a pointless encounter but the WRU clearly wants to rob its punters.

??????

It’s on today, and it’s this afternoon

Sorry. I didn't read the post closely enough. Thread was about Wal v NZ! Although the fact I stated WRU should have made it clear.......

Ahhhh. I didn’t read your post clearly either.

Gumboot wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:23 am

Van_Damme wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:59 amHavili performed well in the early tests against less abrasive defences and people put the cart before the horse as he's struggled against more aggressive linespeed. The modern 12's primary role (although not exclusive) is to get over the gainline and provide an array of short passing and offloading skills to bend the line in attack, as well as provide dominant and neutral gainline tackles. We haven't played a second playmaker 12 since Mauger and McAlister in 2007 and the game has moved on from then. This is especially crucial for this current ABs team as they aren't employing a large power winger to use for first phase gainline plays as they did previously with Julian Savea, Rocococko etc. We won't win a World Cup with at least a couple of backs that can guarantee us some gainline ball carries into aggressive defence. Tupaea may be that guy, has looked good so far. I'm hoping Clarke comes back strong next season also.

Welcome abored.

Agree with your points re Havili. He struggles with the consistent physicality needed at 12 against the best sides, whereas Tupaea seems to relish it. And like Vaaí, he has great anticipation and makes good decisions. Then there's his proven leadership ability.

I'm not sold on Clarke, and suspect he may have been another one-hit blockbuster with little else in the toolbox. Hope he proves me wrong.

He's young still and seems down to earth enough to continue improving, so hopefully he can get back in the mix. That 7s escapade has really set him back though.

It's a bit frustrating that despite having access to a large pool of (particularly Polynesian) power athlete outside and midfield backs, we have one of the least physically imposing backlines we in world rugby, and it has certainly shown when we have played against strong defences. I'm certainly not one for picking size over playmaking ability, but I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. I've always though Havili a better fullback with a game that would be well suited to test rugby but he's never really had a look in there. Tupaea is could certainly take the jersey from him by the end of the tour if he gets an opportunity against Ireland or France and takes it. I'd also be hoping that Thomas Umaga-Jensen can get on the pitch for more than a couple of games next season and make a case for selection. At 112 kg, with good footwork, he could be a powerful midfield option. But he may have left his run a bit late in the World Cup Cycle anyway.

Van_Damme wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:59 am We haven't played a second playmaker 12 since Mauger and McAlister in 2007 and the game has moved on from then. This is especially crucial for this current ABs team as they aren't employing a large power winger to use for first phase gainline plays as they did previously with Julian Savea, Rocococko etc. We won't win a World Cup with at least a couple of backs that can guarantee us some gainline ball carries into aggressive defence. Tupaea may be that guy, has looked good so far. I'm hoping Clarke comes back strong next season also.

I suspect France will do just that next week by playing Jalibert at 10 and N'Tamack at 12. Probably use Penaud and Fickou as the carriers.

Can Jarvo play lock?

Chippy Alley busy in Cardiff last night

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:18 am

Van_Damme wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:59 am We haven't played a second playmaker 12 since Mauger and McAlister in 2007 and the game has moved on from then. This is especially crucial for this current ABs team as they aren't employing a large power winger to use for first phase gainline plays as they did previously with Julian Savea, Rocococko etc. We won't win a World Cup with at least a couple of backs that can guarantee us some gainline ball carries into aggressive defence. Tupaea may be that guy, has looked good so far. I'm hoping Clarke comes back strong next season also.

I suspect France will do just that next week by playing Jalibert at 10 and N'Tamack at 12. Probably use Penaud and Fickou as the carriers.

Yeah but France have always bucked convention and orthodoxy. That strategy may well be effective against the ABs who don't really employ a suffocating rush defence anyway. As well as being tactically ineffective against rush defences, playing a second 'playmaker' at 12 often feels like a makeshift appeasement to keep players happy, which usually doesn't work. Farrell to 12 for England is is probably the best current example.

NZ has more recently been doing this at 15 also. In the endeavour to get more playmakers into the backline, and keep everyone happy, they've treated 10/15 as interchangeable. However this hasn't really produced the results proponents had hoped for and I'm hoping that Jordie Barrett growing into the role now as a specialist 15 will render that strategy a failed experiment, as the concept has really become widely accepted here in NZ amongst our domestic rugby and we have a whole generation of young 10s who are being played largely out of position, preventing them from learning their craft as the game drive, and stalling their development.

Looking forward to the French game though.

Kiwias wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:37 am

Gumboot wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:36 am Retallick's injury not as bad as first feared. Said his arm's a bit sore but should be all good.

Phew!

Glad to hear that.

Yeah... that has calmed me.

Van_Damme wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:57 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:18 am

Van_Damme wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:59 am We haven't played a second playmaker 12 since Mauger and McAlister in 2007 and the game has moved on from then. This is especially crucial for this current ABs team as they aren't employing a large power winger to use for first phase gainline plays as they did previously with Julian Savea, Rocococko etc. We won't win a World Cup with at least a couple of backs that can guarantee us some gainline ball carries into aggressive defence. Tupaea may be that guy, has looked good so far. I'm hoping Clarke comes back strong next season also.

I suspect France will do just that next week by playing Jalibert at 10 and N'Tamack at 12. Probably use Penaud and Fickou as the carriers.

Yeah but France have always bucked convention and orthodoxy. That strategy may well be effective against the ABs who don't really employ a suffocating rush defence anyway. As well as being tactically ineffective against rush defences, playing a second 'playmaker' at 12 often feels like a makeshift appeasement to keep players happy, which usually doesn't work. Farrell to 12 for England is is probably the best current example.

NZ has more recently been doing this at 15 also. In the endeavour to get more playmakers into the backline, and keep everyone happy, they've treated 10/15 as interchangeable. However this hasn't really produced the results proponents had hoped for and I'm hoping that Jordie Barrett growing into the role now as a specialist 15 will render that strategy a failed experiment, as the concept has really become widely accepted here in NZ amongst our domestic rugby and we have a whole generation of young 10s who are being played largely out of position, preventing them from learning their craft as the game drive, and stalling their development.

Looking forward to the French game though.

By that, you mean France is always 10 years behind the curve! Which would be a fair observation.

With the new 50:22 Law, it will be interesting to see if 2nd 5/8th comes back into favour. N'Tamack at 12 is probably (I hope) down to injuries elsewhere: notably Vakatawa. Regardless, it's a mistake because his tactical kicking it too poor to make any effective use and he's a suspect tackler. The backrow and Dupont (who tackles like another 7) can cover that weakness when N'Tamack starts at FH but I'm worried now he's start at 12. Fickou is going to be very busy.

Really didn't enjoy the game.

Watching my nation lose like that is just so fucking slickening.

But hey ho, they are not my nation, they are but a rugby product, a corporate entity like cornflakes or toothpaste, and have about as much to do with my life as any other product I chose to watch, like say Brooklyn Nine Nine.

Title of my sextape.

Line6 HXFX wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:05 pm Really didn't enjoy the game.

Watching my nation lose like that is just so fucking slickening.

But hey ho, they are not my nation, they are but a rugby product, a corporate entity like cornflakes or toothpaste, and have about as much to do with my life as any other product I chose to watch, like say Brooklyn Nine Nine.

Title of my sextape.

Yeah, but cornflakes can't jump to save themselves and toothpaste's tackling is rubbish.