Eddie Jones Not Out

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Good article that highlights a lot of pertinent questions.

This did stand out to me, though

Woodward told a story of a private meeting with Sweeney after the 2019 World Cup, in which he shared honest feedback and opinions

Admittedly I hate the smug prick, but what value is there really in asking the opinion of a man 14 years removed from professional rugby about how he thought England fared at that tournament?

Probably, but if you're Sweeny and a WC winning coach is happy to give you some feedback you might as well at least take the meeting

[Kawazaki]

What's become obvious is that the press are going after Sweeney and Jones as a pair. They've clearly kept a lid on the criticism and open hostility but the gloves are off now.

It is taking the piss that the CEO of the RFU has not made any kind of public address for 366 days. Sweeney and Jones have alienated just about every stakeholder there is in English rugby - the Premiership club DoRs loathe Jones, the Championship clubs loathe Sweeney, the press hate both of them and now, finally, even the wax jacketed morons in the stands at Twickenham are finally catching on.

[Paddington Bear]

Good article that highlights a lot of pertinent questions.

This did stand out to me, though

Woodward told a story of a private meeting with Sweeney after the 2019 World Cup, in which he shared honest feedback and opinions

Admittedly I hate the smug prick, but what value is there really in asking the opinion of a man 14 years removed from professional rugby about how he thought England fared at that tournament?

He was asked for his opinion over a few pints, he wasn't asked to commission a formal review. It would be mad not to at least hear his opinion IMHO.

[Kawazaki]

Good article that highlights a lot of pertinent questions.

This did stand out to me, though

Woodward told a story of a private meeting with Sweeney after the 2019 World Cup, in which he shared honest feedback and opinions

Admittedly I hate the smug prick, but what value is there really in asking the opinion of a man 14 years removed from professional rugby about how he thought England fared at that tournament?

Probably, but if you're Sweeny and a WC winning coach is happy to give you some feedback you might as well at least take the meeting

I put a link to the Woodward article up yesterday. Sweeney asked Woodward for an informal chat over a few beers in a pub 4 days after the RWC final in 2019. Woodward thought it was a confidential and off the record conversation, however, Jones sent Woodward an abusive text message less than an hour after the meeting finished. Basically, Sweeney is Eddie Jones's bitch.

[Guy Smiley]

Good article that highlights a lot of pertinent questions.

This did stand out to me, though


Admittedly I hate the smug prick, but what value is there really in asking the opinion of a man 14 years removed from professional rugby about how he thought England fared at that tournament?

Probably, but if you're Sweeny and a WC winning coach is happy to give you some feedback you might as well at least take the meeting

I put a link to the Woodward article up yesterday. Sweeney asked Woodward for an informal chat over a few beers in a pub 4 days after the RWC final in 2019. Woodward thought it was a confidential and off the record conversation, however, Jones sent Woodward an abusive text message less than an hour after the meeting finished. Basically, Sweeney is Eddie Jones's bitch.

That whole anecdote tells a pretty damning story about the state of the game's administration in England then, really.

[JM2K6]

Woodward primarily uses his article to settle some old scores. And iirc his slagging of England's preparation for the final extended to complaining that Dan Cole and Joe Marler were making jokes in a press conference...

The team arrived late, I believe, which is a fair criticism. But the accusations of a lack of professionalism behind the scenes are weirdly context-less. No real examples beyond it being all about Clive.

Not sure what the slagging of CoS is all about - he's well suited to the role he's in, has had success in various roles before and Woodward is acting like he's a nobody who's wheeled out to defend Eddie all the time. Very strange.

[Kawazaki]

Woodward primarily uses his article to settle some old scores. And iirc his slagging of England's preparation for the final extended to complaining that Dan Cole and Joe Marler were making jokes in a press conference...

The team arrived late, I believe, which is a fair criticism. But the accusations of a lack of professionalism behind the scenes are weirdly context-less. No real examples beyond it being all about Clive.

Not sure what the slagging of CoS is all about - he's well suited to the role he's in, has had success in various roles before and Woodward is acting like he's a nobody who's wheeled out to defend Eddie all the time. Very strange.

I suspect having to fly in a scrumhalf who had been ignored and overlooked for years 8000 miles just a few days before the final to sit on the bench might have been mentioned.

To be fair to Woodward, you can't say he's using hindsight and being wise after the event, he's been saying this shit since 2004.

[Kawazaki]

Probably, but if you're Sweeny and a WC winning coach is happy to give you some feedback you might as well at least take the meeting

I put a link to the Woodward article up yesterday. Sweeney asked Woodward for an informal chat over a few beers in a pub 4 days after the RWC final in 2019. Woodward thought it was a confidential and off the record conversation, however, Jones sent Woodward an abusive text message less than an hour after the meeting finished. Basically, Sweeney is Eddie Jones's bitch.

That whole anecdote tells a pretty damning story about the state of the game's administration in England then, really.

Jones has got the RFU by the balls. Managing up and being a Machiavellian cunt are the only things he does to a world-class standard anymore.

[SaintK]

Woodward primarily uses his article to settle some old scores. And iirc his slagging of England's preparation for the final extended to complaining that Dan Cole and Joe Marler were making jokes in a press conference...

The team arrived late, I believe, which is a fair criticism. But the accusations of a lack of professionalism behind the scenes are weirdly context-less. No real examples beyond it being all about Clive.

Not sure what the slagging of CoS is all about - he's well suited to the role he's in, has had success in various roles before and Woodward is acting like he's a nobody who's wheeled out to defend Eddie all the time. Very strange.

What exactly does he do? Looks to me as if he's been sucked into the mess at the top of the RFU

[JM2K6]

Woodward primarily uses his article to settle some old scores. And iirc his slagging of England's preparation for the final extended to complaining that Dan Cole and Joe Marler were making jokes in a press conference...

The team arrived late, I believe, which is a fair criticism. But the accusations of a lack of professionalism behind the scenes are weirdly context-less. No real examples beyond it being all about Clive.

Not sure what the slagging of CoS is all about - he's well suited to the role he's in, has had success in various roles before and Woodward is acting like he's a nobody who's wheeled out to defend Eddie all the time. Very strange.

What exactly does he do? Looks to me as if he's been sucked into the mess at the top of the RFU

As far as I can tell, which is tricky because it's not a public facing role, he's responsible for managing professional rugby pathways in England. He explicitly has no power over Eddie.

[SaintK]

Woodward primarily uses his article to settle some old scores. And iirc his slagging of England's preparation for the final extended to complaining that Dan Cole and Joe Marler were making jokes in a press conference...

The team arrived late, I believe, which is a fair criticism. But the accusations of a lack of professionalism behind the scenes are weirdly context-less. No real examples beyond it being all about Clive.

Not sure what the slagging of CoS is all about - he's well suited to the role he's in, has had success in various roles before and Woodward is acting like he's a nobody who's wheeled out to defend Eddie all the time. Very strange.

What exactly does he do? Looks to me as if he's been sucked into the mess at the top of the RFU

As far as I can tell, which is tricky because it's not a public facing role, he's responsible for managing professional rugby pathways in England. He explicitly has no power over Eddie.

Thanks
Had wwondered what he was up to. Hopefully we'll see the fruits of his labours at some stage!!!!

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Woodward primarily uses his article to settle some old scores. And iirc his slagging of England's preparation for the final extended to complaining that Dan Cole and Joe Marler were making jokes in a press conference...

The team arrived late, I believe, which is a fair criticism. But the accusations of a lack of professionalism behind the scenes are weirdly context-less. No real examples beyond it being all about Clive.

Not sure what the slagging of CoS is all about - he's well suited to the role he's in, has had success in various roles before and Woodward is acting like he's a nobody who's wheeled out to defend Eddie all the time. Very strange.

What exactly does he do? Looks to me as if he's been sucked into the mess at the top of the RFU

As far as I can tell, which is tricky because it's not a public facing role, he's responsible for managing professional rugby pathways in England. He explicitly has no power over Eddie.

He may have no power over EJ but if he's saying "don't panic, all is well" despite the evidence to the contrary then it's reasonable to call him out on it.

[JM2K6]

What exactly does he do? Looks to me as if he's been sucked into the mess at the top of the RFU

As far as I can tell, which is tricky because it's not a public facing role, he's responsible for managing professional rugby pathways in England. He explicitly has no power over Eddie.

He may have no power over EJ but if he's saying "don't panic, all is well" despite the evidence to the contrary then it's reasonable to call him out on it.

Absolutely. Haven't found any evidence of it though. Not saying it doesn't exist, but I can't find any recent quotes from him.

[sockwithaticket]

Woodward primarily uses his article to settle some old scores. And iirc his slagging of England's preparation for the final extended to complaining that Dan Cole and Joe Marler were making jokes in a press conference...

The team arrived late, I believe, which is a fair criticism. But the accusations of a lack of professionalism behind the scenes are weirdly context-less. No real examples beyond it being all about Clive.

Not sure what the slagging of CoS is all about - he's well suited to the role he's in, has had success in various roles before and Woodward is acting like he's a nobody who's wheeled out to defend Eddie all the time. Very strange.

What exactly does he do? Looks to me as if he's been sucked into the mess at the top of the RFU

This was part of the press release upon his appointment

O’Shea will be responsible for the leadership, management and strategic direction of the professional game in England. With the aim to support long-term sustainable success at international level, the 49 year-old will manage the England player, coaching and match officials pathways across men’s and women’s 15s and Sevens programmes.

The role, reporting to CEO Bill Sweeney, will also oversee performance rugby operations which include the management around the Professional Game Agreement, Greene King IPA Championship, Tyrrells Premier 15s, Rugby Players Association, medical governance and player welfare, sports science, anti-doping and competition frameworks.

He will work closely with England men’s head coach Eddie Jones, however the England team remains the responsibility of Jones who will continue to report directly to Sweeney.

From that the bit that connects with the England senior male side would seem to be ensuring that pro rugby in England is producing a steady stream of EQPs and coaches suitable for roles as they become available.

[Kawazaki]

Does any other Tier1 nation have their head coach report directly to the CEO?

[SaintK]

Woodward primarily uses his article to settle some old scores. And iirc his slagging of England's preparation for the final extended to complaining that Dan Cole and Joe Marler were making jokes in a press conference...

The team arrived late, I believe, which is a fair criticism. But the accusations of a lack of professionalism behind the scenes are weirdly context-less. No real examples beyond it being all about Clive.

Not sure what the slagging of CoS is all about - he's well suited to the role he's in, has had success in various roles before and Woodward is acting like he's a nobody who's wheeled out to defend Eddie all the time. Very strange.

What exactly does he do? Looks to me as if he's been sucked into the mess at the top of the RFU

This was part of the press release upon his appointment

O’Shea will be responsible for the leadership, management and strategic direction of the professional game in England. With the aim to support long-term sustainable success at international level, the 49 year-old will manage the England player, coaching and match officials pathways across men’s and women’s 15s and Sevens programmes.

The role, reporting to CEO Bill Sweeney, will also oversee performance rugby operations which include the management around the Professional Game Agreement, Greene King IPA Championship, Tyrrells Premier 15s, Rugby Players Association, medical governance and player welfare, sports science, anti-doping and competition frameworks.

He will work closely with England men’s head coach Eddie Jones, however the England team remains the responsibility of Jones who will continue to report directly to Sweeney.

From that the bit that connects with the England senior male side would seem to be ensuring that pro rugby in England is producing a steady stream of EQPs and coaches suitable for roles as they become available.

Thanks for that, quite a big job!!!
Not sure the pathway is working all that well if the U20's lost 3 matches in their 6N as well!! Certainly doesn't work if the England head coach doesn't bother picking players that have successfully developed through the pathway. I wonder how often he speaks to Jones?
The most successful area appears to be the Women's 15's so far

[Rhubarb & Custard]

What exactly does he do? Looks to me as if he's been sucked into the mess at the top of the RFU

As far as I can tell, which is tricky because it's not a public facing role, he's responsible for managing professional rugby pathways in England. He explicitly has no power over Eddie.

He may have no power over EJ but if he's saying "don't panic, all is well" despite the evidence to the contrary then it's reasonable to call him out on it.

He's much more likely to note the number of young players who've come through into the England side in the last 12 months, and maybe even cite what's happening in Italy and the time it took there for his reforms to bear fruit. Of course if he should in first instance advise 'don't panic' that's fine providing he knows where his towel is

[sockwithaticket]

What exactly does he do? Looks to me as if he's been sucked into the mess at the top of the RFU

This was part of the press release upon his appointment

O’Shea will be responsible for the leadership, management and strategic direction of the professional game in England. With the aim to support long-term sustainable success at international level, the 49 year-old will manage the England player, coaching and match officials pathways across men’s and women’s 15s and Sevens programmes.

The role, reporting to CEO Bill Sweeney, will also oversee performance rugby operations which include the management around the Professional Game Agreement, Greene King IPA Championship, Tyrrells Premier 15s, Rugby Players Association, medical governance and player welfare, sports science, anti-doping and competition frameworks.

He will work closely with England men’s head coach Eddie Jones, however the England team remains the responsibility of Jones who will continue to report directly to Sweeney.

From that the bit that connects with the England senior male side would seem to be ensuring that pro rugby in England is producing a steady stream of EQPs and coaches suitable for roles as they become available.

Thanks for that, quite a big job!!!
Not sure the pathway is working all that well if the U20's lost 3 matches in their 6N as well!! Certainly doesn't work if the England head coach doesn't bother picking players that have successfully developed through the pathway. I wonder how often he speaks to Jones?
The most successful area appears to be the Women's 15's so far

Tbf, the U20s have generally been pretty successful in previous years and there's often a bit of a dip performance wise when a new intake comes in. IIRC most of this year's squad are first timers and that seems to have coincided with the likes of Scotland and Italy being better than usual. If we lose 3 again next year, then it'll be time to start asking some questions.

Recently our U20s seem to have provided more players for Wales and Scotland than our national team...

[eldanielfire]

Good article that highlights a lot of pertinent questions.

This did stand out to me, though

Woodward told a story of a private meeting with Sweeney after the 2019 World Cup, in which he shared honest feedback and opinions

Admittedly I hate the smug prick, but what value is there really in asking the opinion of a man 14 years removed from professional rugby about how he thought England fared at that tournament?

Regardless Woodward is a select number of a few coaches who ahve won a world cup. According to him he also mentioned in advance to Sweeney he saw the issues with England before at the group stages. I thiink that warrents a quick talk at least.

[JM2K6]

Good article that highlights a lot of pertinent questions.

This did stand out to me, though

Woodward told a story of a private meeting with Sweeney after the 2019 World Cup, in which he shared honest feedback and opinions

Admittedly I hate the smug prick, but what value is there really in asking the opinion of a man 14 years removed from professional rugby about how he thought England fared at that tournament?

Regardless Woodward is a select number of a few coaches who ahve won a world cup. According to him he also mentioned in advance to Sweeney he saw the issues with England before at the group stages. I thiink that warrents a quick talk at least.

Oh aye. Wonder if he ever hinted at those issues before the final.

[eldanielfire]

What exactly does he do? Looks to me as if he's been sucked into the mess at the top of the RFU

As far as I can tell, which is tricky because it's not a public facing role, he's responsible for managing professional rugby pathways in England. He explicitly has no power over Eddie.

He may have no power over EJ but if he's saying "don't panic, all is well" despite the evidence to the contrary then it's reasonable to call him out on it.

All true, but ti moght be as he ahs no power, that publically airing the worst opinions might be counter productive and affect the team. Then Sweeny would be responsibel for the results as well.

[eldanielfire]

Good article that highlights a lot of pertinent questions.

This did stand out to me, though


Admittedly I hate the smug prick, but what value is there really in asking the opinion of a man 14 years removed from professional rugby about how he thought England fared at that tournament?

Regardless Woodward is a select number of a few coaches who ahve won a world cup. According to him he also mentioned in advance to Sweeney he saw the issues with England before at the group stages. I thiink that warrents a quick talk at least.

Oh aye. Wonder if he ever hinted at those issues before the final.

I didn't pay attention. But in the article Clive said he did. Not sure if it was in commentary.

[JM2K6]

Regardless Woodward is a select number of a few coaches who ahve won a world cup. According to him he also mentioned in advance to Sweeney he saw the issues with England before at the group stages. I thiink that warrents a quick talk at least.

Oh aye. Wonder if he ever hinted at those issues before the final.

I didn't pay attention. But in the article Clive said he did. Not sure if it was in commentary.

The article doesn't mention the group stages at all. It's classic Clive, all post hoc justification. And let's be fair here, England were an absolute machine until the final.

[Brazil]

It's worth remembering that Woodward, fucked off promptly after a poor tour in 2004, which was entirely down to nobody at the RFU listening to him (obvs). Then went to his first true love, football, where he was an unmitigated disaster. Then led the Lions to one of the worst tours in their history.

Plus he has a long, long history of justifying things after the fact and aggrandising stuff that is fairly basic management and strategy as being solely down to his personal genius (see the bit about conferences in "Winning").

And he's also a massive cunt.

[Grandpa]

Surely be worth having Rassie as England coach just to see his public video analysis after a loss to SA...

[Kawazaki]

It's worth remembering that Woodward, fucked off promptly after a poor tour in 2004, which was entirely down to nobody at the RFU listening to him (obvs). Then went to his first true love, football, where he was an unmitigated disaster. Then led the Lions to one of the worst tours in their history.

Plus he has a long, long history of justifying things after the fact and aggrandising stuff that is fairly basic management and strategy as being solely down to his personal genius (see the bit about conferences in "Winning").

And he's also a massive cunt.

Woodward being a massive chippy wanker with a lack of self-awareness and his opinion that Eddie Jones is a chancer making it up at he goes along without any censure or supervision can both be true at the same time.

[eldanielfire]

Oh aye. Wonder if he ever hinted at those issues before the final.

I didn't pay attention. But in the article Clive said he did. Not sure if it was in commentary.

The article doesn't mention the group stages at all. It's classic Clive, all post hoc justification. And let's be fair here, England were an absolute machine until the final.

I wouldn't say it was that strong. Plenty of the performances were regarded as functional in the group stages. The Tonga game wasn't seem as particularly overpowering as it should have been. I say that as someone who thinks Eddie will at the least get another good RWC run together next year.

[Mahoney]

It's worth remembering that Woodward, fucked off promptly after a poor tour in 2004, which was entirely down to nobody at the RFU listening to him (obvs). Then went to his first true love, football, where he was an unmitigated disaster. Then led the Lions to one of the worst tours in their history.

Plus he has a long, long history of justifying things after the fact and aggrandising stuff that is fairly basic management and strategy as being solely down to his personal genius (see the bit about conferences in "Winning").

And he's also a massive cunt.

Woodward being a massive chippy wanker with a lack of self-awareness and his opinion that Eddie Jones is a chancer making it up at he goes along without any censure or supervision can both be true at the same time.

A clock being stopped and the clock telling the right time can both be true at the same time.

You still shouldn't use the stopped clock as supporting evidence for it being that time.

[Paddington Bear]

I didn't pay attention. But in the article Clive said he did. Not sure if it was in commentary.

The article doesn't mention the group stages at all. It's classic Clive, all post hoc justification. And let's be fair here, England were an absolute machine until the final.

I wouldn't say it was that strong. Plenty of the performances were regarded as functional in the group stages. The Tonga game wasn't seem as particularly overpowering as it should have been. I say that as someone who thinks Eddie will at the least get another good RWC run together next year.

Yes but likewise in 03 we struggled past Samoa. It only matters if you lose, group stage is to be navigated without a loss or major injury, that's it.

[TheFrog]

I reviewed the game and in hindsight I don't think England were that bad....

There were at least 2 occurrences where Jaco interfered with the pass out of the ruck when there were clear overlaps for England to make use of. That interference allowed France to tackle the ball carrier and in one instance turn over the ball.

Couple penalties were not blown against France which would have given England 3 pointers.

And there were 3 near missed which, with better luck, could have been tries.

One day, these will stick.

[eldanielfire]

The article doesn't mention the group stages at all. It's classic Clive, all post hoc justification. And let's be fair here, England were an absolute machine until the final.

I wouldn't say it was that strong. Plenty of the performances were regarded as functional in the group stages. The Tonga game wasn't seem as particularly overpowering as it should have been. I say that as someone who thinks Eddie will at the least get another good RWC run together next year.

Yes but likewise in 03 we struggled past Samoa. It only matters if you lose, group stage is to be navigated without a loss or major injury, that's it.

Good point.

[Grandpa]

I reviewed the game and in hindsight I don't think England were that bad....

There were at least 2 occurrences where Jaco interfered with the pass out of the ruck when there were clear overlaps for England to make use of. That interference allowed France to tackle the ball carrier and in one instance turn over the ball.

Couple penalties were not blown against France which would have given England 3 pointers.

And there were 3 near missed which, with better luck, could have been tries.

One day, these will stick.

Frog... as a neutral, England were never in it... they were flattered by the final score line...

[Paddington Bear]

We competed fairly manfully and had Dombrandt not been held up could have caused a fright. However we were certainly second best and just as it could have been different had Dombrandt scored, it could have been ugly if France had finished off a couple more chances.

[Guy Smiley]

I reviewed the game and in hindsight I don't think England were that bad....

There were at least 2 occurrences where Jaco interfered with the pass out of the ruck when there were clear overlaps for England to make use of. That interference allowed France to tackle the ball carrier and in one instance turn over the ball.

Couple penalties were not blown against France which would have given England 3 pointers.

And there were 3 near missed which, with better luck, could have been tries.

One day, these will stick.

Frog... as a neutral, England were never in it... they were flattered by the final score line...

He's right about Peyper getting in the way though... can't remember seeing a test where the ref was so involved in the play.

[Hugo]

Regarding that Sweeney thing: Woodward is a pundit with no authority or institutional power whose perspective is at least worthy of consideration. Does he have an ego, is he narcissistic? Yes, but that doesn't disqualify him from having an opinion or invalidate his criticism. Why is his feedback being shared with Jones before it has even been digested?

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Why not, if Woodward has made some comments the CEO thinks can be shared with Jones then crack on? If the content needs to be kept secret from Jones it's starting to get somewhat silly

[Hugo]

Why not, if Woodward has made some comments the CEO thinks can be shared with Jones then crack on? If the content needs to be kept secret from Jones it's starting to get somewhat silly

It's better to sleep on that sort of information and then find the appropriate time to deliver it in a constructive fashion.

The way that Woodward tells it he got an abusive text message from Jones within hours of the meeting with Sweeney. So everything that Woodward said was passed on with no attempt to sort through it or consider its validity.

Thats unprofessional and is how gossips and nosy neighbours operate, "you won't believe what I just heard......"

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I don't know what was said but certainly if Eddie was abusive that's unnecessary, at best it adds no value. That said I also don't know why it's a must things need to be slept on, cogitated over and only then passed on, they could be, but one might quite reasonably not spend a moment wondering if such was required.

[Kawazaki]

I don't know what was said but certainly if Eddie was abusive that's unnecessary, at best it adds no value. That said I also don't know why it's a must things need to be slept on, cogitated over and only then passed on, they could be, but one might quite reasonably not spend a moment wondering if such was required.

Woodward was chatting to the CEO of the RFU, he wasn't shooting the breeze with Bob from accounts.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Your thoughts there being a CEO would be on the slow side and need more time? There is some evidence looking across many boards, but still