NPR

Guy Smiley wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 1:41 am Tell me why I should click that link

lemonhead wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 11:22 pm

Guy Smiley wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 3:56 pm

Hugo wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 2:49 pm

The investigation was always going to amount to nothing. At most it'll be "whoops we made a mistake, shit happens".

There's a risk of buying into a sort of horror fest I suppose in discussing these issues but for me, as appalling as the targetting of the aid convoy is, the revelations surrounding the use of AI as detailed above should be front and centre in any debate around criminality in this conflict. That lays bare the complete contempt this Israeli government harbour for Palestinians and the willingness of their military in carrying out what looks like atrocities on a horrific scale.

I've long held a sort of admiration for the ability and efficiency of the various IDF agencies. I'm old enough to remember the Munich Olympics massacre and the Entebbe rescue mission. Looking back at those events now and it's easy to see the narrative framing the protagonists with the usual and accepted labelling of Palestinians as terrorists and the heroics of a ruthless Israeli response.

This current conflict has completely changed my perspective. I've no problem seeing Hamas as a bunch of cunce who fit my label of active terrorists and I want to see them gone... a quick death seems inadequate. I've come to feel the same way about the current Israeli govt and the leadership of the IDF.

On top of that, though... is the horror of watching the 'civilised world' sit back and watch, doing nothing as what we like to call our humanity, our noble ideals are stripped away and trodden into blood soaked mud.

Over all else. Don't quite know how to process other than it's been tested and found so weak/self interested as to be complete bystanders while woman and children are slaughtered every day.

And eventually drops down the news a bit. Everyone burying heads in the sand waiting for some leadership, anyone at all to call it for the horror it is and take action. Predictably, only when western civilians are murdered do governments give a perfunctory shit.

Guy Smiley wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 1:41 am Tell me why I should click that link

Calculon wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 3:28 am

lemonhead wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 11:22 pm

Guy Smiley wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 3:56 pm

There's a risk of buying into a sort of horror fest I suppose in discussing these issues but for me, as appalling as the targetting of the aid convoy is, the revelations surrounding the use of AI as detailed above should be front and centre in any debate around criminality in this conflict. That lays bare the complete contempt this Israeli government harbour for Palestinians and the willingness of their military in carrying out what looks like atrocities on a horrific scale.

I've long held a sort of admiration for the ability and efficiency of the various IDF agencies. I'm old enough to remember the Munich Olympics massacre and the Entebbe rescue mission. Looking back at those events now and it's easy to see the narrative framing the protagonists with the usual and accepted labelling of Palestinians as terrorists and the heroics of a ruthless Israeli response.

This current conflict has completely changed my perspective. I've no problem seeing Hamas as a bunch of cunce who fit my label of active terrorists and I want to see them gone... a quick death seems inadequate. I've come to feel the same way about the current Israeli govt and the leadership of the IDF.

On top of that, though... is the horror of watching the 'civilised world' sit back and watch, doing nothing as what we like to call our humanity, our noble ideals are stripped away and trodden into blood soaked mud.

Over all else. Don't quite know how to process other than it's been tested and found so weak/self interested as to be complete bystanders while woman and children are slaughtered every day.

And eventually drops down the news a bit. Everyone burying heads in the sand waiting for some leadership, anyone at all to call it for the horror it is and take action. Predictably, only when western civilians are murdered do governments give a perfunctory shit.

Governments care more for their own citizens shocker, and thank fuck they do. I suspect most people don't care more because there's absolutely nothing they can do to that will have an effect on what's going on. I worked in Sudan and met many cool people there but apart from feeling some sadness for those people, I don't think there's much that can be done. And this is a country experiencing famine, malnutrition, rape and other violence against civilians far exceeding what's happening in Gaza.

Also there is the fact that theres a shit load of cunts in the Middle East. I support the Israelis, and think a ceasefire would be a mistake for a number of reasons, but I'm not blind to the fact that many are utterly dislikable cunts that have treated the Palistinians like shit. As for the Gaza Palistinians, most of them are delusional shit kicking cunts who support Hamas so what the fuck did they expect when Hamas attacked Isreali in that most barbaric sadistic way. Many of the people who "care" the most are also some of the biggest cunts around, like George Galloway and some in the pro pali protests.

Sandstorm wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 8:20 am Good post Lemonhead

Tilly Orifice wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 2:28 am

Guy Smiley wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 1:41 am Tell me why I should click that link

It's The Atlantic. Not really vital but probably useful. Behind a paywall, though.

Sandstorm wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 8:20 am Good post Lemonhead

Uncle fester wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 11:14 am

Tilly Orifice wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 2:28 am

Guy Smiley wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 1:41 am Tell me why I should click that link

It's The Atlantic. Not really vital but probably useful. Behind a paywall, though.

Archive.ph Link
https://archive.ph/c63Jj

Tilly Orifice wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 12:09 pm

Uncle fester wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 11:14 am

Tilly Orifice wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 2:28 am

It's The Atlantic. Not really vital but probably useful. Behind a paywall, though.

Archive.ph Link
https://archive.ph/c63Jj

Yes, I use that archive site to view pages that are paywalled, it's invaluable. Most often it will have already been archived and you can view it immediately. Occasionally it will take a bit longer because you are the first, and you're archiving the page so that everybody else can view it.
In which case you're entitled to feel very pleased with yourself.

The drone unit saw multiple suspicious actions, starting after 10 p.m. Monday.

First, the drone unit said it saw a Hamas terrorist climb onto one of the trucks and fire in the air at what it called action point two.

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According to the IDF, this tactic is frequent and is used by Hamas to send signals to other Hamas fighters in the area regarding his position.

A Palestinian inspects near a vehicle where employees from the World Central Kitchen (WCK), including foreigners, were killed in an Israeli airstrike (credit: Ahmed Zakot/Reuters)

A Palestinian inspects near a vehicle where employees from the World Central Kitchen (WCK), including foreigners, were killed in an Israeli airstrike (credit: Ahmed Zakot/Reuters)

At action point three, the convoy split up.

At action point four, the convoy entered a hangar, which obscured which vehicles might be going in and out and who might be in the vehicles compared to who was in the vehicles before entering the hangar.

IDF unable to reach aid workers

In the first four action points, the IDF drone unit refrained from attacking the aid trucks, because they questioned their commanders and were ordered by Division 162 Brig. Gen. Itzik Cohen not to, despite a suspicion of Hamas terrorists being involved. IDF tried to call aid workers, was unable to reach them.

At the fifth action point, the aid trucks had left the hangar.
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As the events developed, the IDF tried to call the aid workers involved in the field and was unable to reach them.

Next, the IDF called the WCK headquarters. The WCK headquarters tried to call its own aid workers in the field, but they did not answer.

When vehicles left the hangar, the IDF drone unit believed that these were not the same vehicles and thought that these were Hamas vehicles or that around four Hamas operatives had joined or taken over the convoy.
According to the IDF, attacking the trucks after all of this was a mistaken identity issue but could not lead to criminal charges.

Accordingly, the drone unit believed the order not to attack no longer applied.

Around a kilometer later, around 11:09 p.m., the drone unit believed it had the right to engage the trucks.

Also, the drone unit had thermal imaging that did not see the WCK aid worker sign posted on the roof of the trucks.
When the drone unit attacked three separate times in succession, it believed that the “coast was clear” completely to attack what it thought were clearly Hamas targets.

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 9:10 am

Sandstorm wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 8:20 am Good post Lemonhead

+1

Just one in four British Muslims believe Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel

Findings show ‘failure of counter-extremism policy’ and confirm a lot of ‘work needs to be done’ to challenge old anti-Semitic tropes

Camilla Turner,
SUNDAY POLITICAL EDITOR
6 April 2024 • 7:43pm

2233
Fiyaz Mughal is the founder of two non-profit organisations that work for interfaith dialogue and against anti-Muslim hate crime
Only one in four British Muslims believe that Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on Oct 7, a major report has found.

46 per cent of British Muslims said they sympathise with Hamas, according to a poll commissioned by the Henry Jackson Society (HJS), a counter-extremism think-tank.

The survey, which is the largest of its kind to be carried out since the Israel-Hamas conflict began, asked a range of questions to British Muslims as well as to the general public.

Its findings come on the six-month anniversary of the Oct 7 massacre, when Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel, killed around 1,200 citizens and took 253 people hostage.

The survey also found that just over half (52 per cent) of British Muslims want to make it illegal to show a picture of the Prophet Mohammed, compared to just 16 per cent of the public.

A third of British Muslims (32 per cent) want to see Shariah law implemented in the UK versus nine per cent of the public.

Younger and well-educated Muslims were the most likely to think Hamas did not commit atrocities on Oct 7, with the proportions rising to 47 per cent among 18 to 24-year-olds and 40 per cent among the university-educated.

Mr Mughal says findings were 'shocking but also not shocking'
Mr Mughal says findings were 'shocking but also not shocking' CREDIT: KEN RAKE/CAMERA PRESS
Last night, ministers were urged to step up their efforts to counter extreme narratives. Fiyaz Mughal, who founded interfaith groups Tell Mama, Faith Matters and Muslims Against Anti-Semitism, said the findings are “shocking but also not shocking”.

He said: “Hamas is an Islamist extremist and terrorist group and has been terrorising Gazans, Israelis and liberals within society for decades.

“The sense that Hamas did not conduct massacres and rapes in Israel is atrocious because it shows a closed-off mentality to anything emanating from Israel.”

The survey was carried out by J L Partners, the polling company which was founded by James Johnson, the former Downing Street pollster.

It also found that almost half (46 per cent) of British Muslims say Jews have too much power over UK government policy, compared to 16 per cent of the general public.

Among British Muslims, 41 per cent said Jews have too much power in the media industry and 39 per cent said Jews have too much power in the UK’s financial system.

‘At risk of social cohesion problem’
Mr Mughal said: “The findings confirm that a lot of work needs to be done to inform, challenge, and address old anti-Semitic tropes that are still circulating among some of my co-religionists.

“The Government has got to provide better guidance for teachers, schools and education establishments. The investment needs to happen as soon as possible because we are at real risk of a social cohesion problem.”

Asked whether Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on Oct 7, 24 per cent of British Muslims said they had, compared to 62 per cent of the general public.

A further 39 per cent of British Muslims said Hamas did not commit atrocities, and 37 per cent said they did not know whether they had or had not.

A plan is needed
Alan Mendoza, the executive director of HJS, said the findings show “the failure of counter-extremism policy over the years”.

He added: “What is probably going wrong is an unwillingness to tackle this kind of extremism for fear of being labelled Islamophobic or racist. There is a reluctance to call it out in the same way that people are very happy to call out far-Right extremism.

“The Government needs to find a way of supporting and strengthening the voice of moderate Muslims and drive the extremist narrative to the sidelines.”

A government spokesperson said: “We have recently set out a series of measures which will promote social cohesion and counter religious hatred. Our plan will tackle division in our communities and ensure that we are protecting our democratic freedoms across the country.”

Ymx wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 12:38 pm Depressing reading

Just one in four British Muslims believe Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel

Findings show ‘failure of counter-extremism policy’ and confirm a lot of ‘work needs to be done’ to challenge old anti-Semitic tropes

Camilla Turner,
SUNDAY POLITICAL EDITOR
6 April 2024 • 7:43pm

2233
Fiyaz Mughal is the founder of two non-profit organisations that work for interfaith dialogue and against anti-Muslim hate crime
Only one in four British Muslims believe that Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on Oct 7, a major report has found.

46 per cent of British Muslims said they sympathise with Hamas, according to a poll commissioned by the Henry Jackson Society (HJS), a counter-extremism think-tank.

The survey, which is the largest of its kind to be carried out since the Israel-Hamas conflict began, asked a range of questions to British Muslims as well as to the general public.

Its findings come on the six-month anniversary of the Oct 7 massacre, when Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel, killed around 1,200 citizens and took 253 people hostage.

The survey also found that just over half (52 per cent) of British Muslims want to make it illegal to show a picture of the Prophet Mohammed, compared to just 16 per cent of the public.

A third of British Muslims (32 per cent) want to see Shariah law implemented in the UK versus nine per cent of the public.

Younger and well-educated Muslims were the most likely to think Hamas did not commit atrocities on Oct 7, with the proportions rising to 47 per cent among 18 to 24-year-olds and 40 per cent among the university-educated.

Mr Mughal says findings were 'shocking but also not shocking'
Mr Mughal says findings were 'shocking but also not shocking' CREDIT: KEN RAKE/CAMERA PRESS
Last night, ministers were urged to step up their efforts to counter extreme narratives. Fiyaz Mughal, who founded interfaith groups Tell Mama, Faith Matters and Muslims Against Anti-Semitism, said the findings are “shocking but also not shocking”.

He said: “Hamas is an Islamist extremist and terrorist group and has been terrorising Gazans, Israelis and liberals within society for decades.

“The sense that Hamas did not conduct massacres and rapes in Israel is atrocious because it shows a closed-off mentality to anything emanating from Israel.”

The survey was carried out by J L Partners, the polling company which was founded by James Johnson, the former Downing Street pollster.

It also found that almost half (46 per cent) of British Muslims say Jews have too much power over UK government policy, compared to 16 per cent of the general public.

Among British Muslims, 41 per cent said Jews have too much power in the media industry and 39 per cent said Jews have too much power in the UK’s financial system.

‘At risk of social cohesion problem’
Mr Mughal said: “The findings confirm that a lot of work needs to be done to inform, challenge, and address old anti-Semitic tropes that are still circulating among some of my co-religionists.

“The Government has got to provide better guidance for teachers, schools and education establishments. The investment needs to happen as soon as possible because we are at real risk of a social cohesion problem.”

Asked whether Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on Oct 7, 24 per cent of British Muslims said they had, compared to 62 per cent of the general public.

A further 39 per cent of British Muslims said Hamas did not commit atrocities, and 37 per cent said they did not know whether they had or had not.

A plan is needed
Alan Mendoza, the executive director of HJS, said the findings show “the failure of counter-extremism policy over the years”.

He added: “What is probably going wrong is an unwillingness to tackle this kind of extremism for fear of being labelled Islamophobic or racist. There is a reluctance to call it out in the same way that people are very happy to call out far-Right extremism.

“The Government needs to find a way of supporting and strengthening the voice of moderate Muslims and drive the extremist narrative to the sidelines.”

A government spokesperson said: “We have recently set out a series of measures which will promote social cohesion and counter religious hatred. Our plan will tackle division in our communities and ensure that we are protecting our democratic freedoms across the country.”

Calculon wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 3:35 pm C69, do find it worrying that only 24 percent of British Muslims think Hamas carried out murder and rape? Btw, the IDF have charged its soldiers with murder before

https://thecjn.ca/news/idf-soldier-char ... ow-so-far/

Ymx wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 7:20 pm I think the point calculon was making was that whilst there are despicable acts which are committed …

On one side it is deliberate barbarism on civilians as a strategy.

Whereas on the other there is accountability for actions.

Guy Smiley wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 8:05 pm

Ymx wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 7:20 pm I think the point calculon was making was that whilst there are despicable acts which are committed …

On one side it is deliberate barbarism on civilians as a strategy.

Whereas on the other there is accountability for actions.

Oh yeah... where's the accountability for 70 years of brutal oppression, the jailing of minors, the systematic raping andbeating of landholders before stealing that land...


and the rest.

You guys really struggle to accept that there are two sides to the brutality. You've completely swallowed the propaganda bait.

Ymx wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 9:29 pm

Guy Smiley wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 8:05 pm

Ymx wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 7:20 pm I think the point calculon was making was that whilst there are despicable acts which are committed …

On one side it is deliberate barbarism on civilians as a strategy.

Whereas on the other there is accountability for actions.

Oh yeah... where's the accountability for 70 years of brutal oppression, the jailing of minors, the systematic raping andbeating of landholders before stealing that land...


and the rest.

You guys really struggle to accept that there are two sides to the brutality. You've completely swallowed the propaganda bait.

Would you say Hamas raped and murdered on Oct 7th?

Even you would acknowledge this right? You’d have to be a massive cvnt to deny it right??

Why are 75% of UK Muslims fall in to this category? such indoctrinated cvnts?

Ymx wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 9:42 pm It was above in the article. You even responded to it.

Are you ok??

Just one in four British Muslims believe Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel

Findings show ‘failure of counter-extremism policy’ and confirm a lot of ‘work needs to be done’ to challenge old anti-Semitic tropes

Camilla Turner,
SUNDAY POLITICAL EDITOR
6 April 2024 • 7:43pm

2233
Fiyaz Mughal is the founder of two non-profit organisations that work for interfaith dialogue and against anti-Muslim hate crime
Only one in four British Muslims believe that Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on Oct 7, a major report has found.

The Henry Jackson Society (HJS) is a trans-Atlantic foreign policy and national security think tank, based in the United Kingdom. While describing itself as non-partisan, its outlook has been described variously as "right-wing",[1][2][3][4] neoliberal[5][6] and as neoconservative.[7][8][9] The Society identifies itself with a "forward strategy" to spread democracy and liberal values globally.[10] It is currently focused primarily on supporting global democracy in the face of threats from China and Russia.[11][12][failed verification] The Society is also known for its reports related to Islamic[13] and far-right extremism.[14] The Society is named after the US Senator and leading Democrat, Henry M. Jackson. American political journalist, Michael Allen, described the society as "a non-partisan group that convenes transatlantic center-left, center-right and independent figures committed to Jackson's legacy of 'democratic geopolitics.'"[15]

Think-tank discussions on the Middle East and Islam have led to some media organisations criticising the Society for a perceived anti-Muslim agenda. Marko Attila Hoare, a former senior member, cited related reasons for leaving the think tank and Scottish Labour leader Jim Murphy was urged, in 2015, to sever his links with the Society.[58][60]
According to a report by the Cordoba Foundation in 2015, "right-wing politics is apparent not only in the ideas that the Henry Jackson Society promotes, but also emerges distinctly on examination of its funders".[61]
The Muslim Council of Britain criticised the Society in 2017 for making "oblique references to the usual slurs levelled at Muslims: that Muslims do not integrate, are not part and parcel of British society, and are therefore likely to be terrorists".[62]
Co-founder Matthew Jamison, who now works for YouGov, wrote in 2017 that he was ashamed of his involvement, having never imagined the Henry Jackson Society "would become a far-right, deeply anti-Muslim racist ... propaganda outfit to smear other cultures, religions and ethnic groups". He claimed that "The HJS for many years has relentlessly demonised Muslims and Islam".[63]
In 2020, the Society paid damages to the UK Muslim educational channel Huda Television Ltd, having confused it in 2018 with the similarly named Egyptian station, Huda TV, which it accused of a "radical agenda" and hosting islamic extremist content.[64]

The original purpose of the Henry Jackson Society was to make the argument for a values based foreign policy open to humanitarian intervention and promoting democracy and human rights. It was never supposed to be an anti-Islam, anti-Muslim racist organisation, peddling bigotry and most certainly never a smear, propaganda vehicle for foreign governments to wage disinformation campaigns against their regional bugbears. Sadly, however that is exactly what it has degenerated into.

lemonhead wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 7:58 am UK polling data is pretty accurate, they speak to roughly one in 500 people. This is one in 4000, but let's say that's still completely accurate. I'm not sold on completely disregarding nuance and putting all the undecideds in someone's camp of choice, almost like you know their individual thoughts on this. Hell, why stop there - even the ones who are against Hamas are probably lying too. Coz they would, wouldn't they...

A heavily negative view of Israel is absolutely a trend. More so than in the second survey of the general public (2000 this time) which is more middle ground, far more realistic about Oct 7th and essentially a plague on both their houses.

Even then though you get responses like this one I noted down, a question on who people sympathise with more: 16% Hamas, 27% Israel and the rest don't know or neutral. Some fun headlines in there if one so wished.

'1 in 5 UK residents backing Hamas'
'Only 1 in 4 support Israel'
'3 in 5 UK residents DON'T KNOW'. My personal favourite

Whole thing just gives air to the lies, damned lies and selective poll data line of argument. But people see whatever they want to I guess

Ymx wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 8:05 am

lemonhead wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 7:58 am UK polling data is pretty accurate, they speak to roughly one in 500 people. This is one in 4000, but let's say that's still completely accurate. I'm not sold on completely disregarding nuance and putting all the undecideds in someone's camp of choice, almost like you know their individual thoughts on this. Hell, why stop there - even the ones who are against Hamas are probably lying too. Coz they would, wouldn't they...

A heavily negative view of Israel is absolutely a trend. More so than in the second survey of the general public (2000 this time) which is more middle ground, far more realistic about Oct 7th and essentially a plague on both their houses.

Even then though you get responses like this one I noted down, a question on who people sympathise with more: 16% Hamas, 27% Israel and the rest don't know or neutral. Some fun headlines in there if one so wished.

'1 in 5 UK residents backing Hamas'
'Only 1 in 4 support Israel'
'3 in 5 UK residents DON'T KNOW'. My personal favourite

Whole thing just gives air to the lies, damned lies and selective poll data line of argument. But people see whatever they want to I guess

Are you not concerned about the estimated 1.2m UK Muslims who have nailed their flag to the mast ?

Ymx wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 8:05 am

lemonhead wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 7:58 am UK polling data is pretty accurate, they speak to roughly one in 500 people. This is one in 4000, but let's say that's still completely accurate. I'm not sold on completely disregarding nuance and putting all the undecideds in someone's camp of choice, almost like you know their individual thoughts on this. Hell, why stop there - even the ones who are against Hamas are probably lying too. Coz they would, wouldn't they...

A heavily negative view of Israel is absolutely a trend. More so than in the second survey of the general public (2000 this time) which is more middle ground, far more realistic about Oct 7th and essentially a plague on both their houses.

Even then though you get responses like this one I noted down, a question on who people sympathise with more: 16% Hamas, 27% Israel and the rest don't know or neutral. Some fun headlines in there if one so wished.

'1 in 5 UK residents backing Hamas'
'Only 1 in 4 support Israel'
'3 in 5 UK residents DON'T KNOW'. My personal favourite

Whole thing just gives air to the lies, damned lies and selective poll data line of argument. But people see whatever they want to I guess

Are you not concerned about the estimated 1.2m UK Muslims who have nailed their flag to the mast ?