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Interesting analysis on the wing choices for Silverstone on Formula1.com Tech Tuesday. It illustrates very well why Tracing Point didn’t have their usual speed and Ferrari clawed some back.

Not a surprise...Bottas extended for 21 with Merc..

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... -f1-season

"I'm very happy to stay with Mercedes in 2021 and build on the success we've enjoyed together already," said Bottas, who joined as Nico Rosberg's replacement in 2017 from Williams.

Looks like Tracing Point are playing funny buggers with Perez and his ‘rona test. Claiming that the first one he took which F1 says is inconclusive counts as a positive test under Public Health Engerlund rules so his 10 day quarantine period starts from then. F1 seem to have suggested they’re being total douche bags about it.

ScarfaceClaw wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:00 pm . F1 seem to have suggested they’re being total douche bags about it.

Perez has tested positive again so that clears up any argument. It seems to me Tracing Point have shown a shameful lack of awareness given the amount of effort taken to get the F1 (and 2 and 3 etc.) shows back on the road.

In a bit of a surprise decision, the FIA have come down on Renault's side in the Tracing Paper case. 15 point penalty and a 400,000 Euro fine.

Expect an appeal

Un Pilier wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:25 am Perez has tested positive again so that clears up any argument. It seems to me Tracing Point have shown a shameful lack of awareness given the amount of effort taken to get the F1 (and 2 and 3 etc.) shows back on the road.

It’s an extraordinary level of arrogance from tracing point and Perez. I’d love to know what’s being said privately in the various teams about them.

ScarfaceClaw wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:52 am

Un Pilier wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:25 am Perez has tested positive again so that clears up any argument. It seems to me Tracing Point have shown a shameful lack of awareness given the amount of effort taken to get the F1 (and 2 and 3 etc.) shows back on the road.

It’s an extraordinary level of arrogance from tracing point and Perez. I’d love to know what’s being said privately in the various teams about them.

Too many Yanks in that team.

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:48 am In a bit of a surprise decision, the FIA have come down on Renault's side in the Tracing Paper case. 15 point penalty and a 400,000 Euro fine.

Expect an appeal

Just the rear ducts apparently- the front ducts had been copied but were used in 2019 when that was legal. The rear ducts were new on this year’s car and thus judged to have transgressed. No indication yet of an appeal. As far as I can tell the judgement looks pretty sound but it’s a severe penalty.

As expected the Soft tyre this week, even with increased pressures, appear barely able to make even a full qualifying lap without falling apart. I can;t imagine seeing it in the race unless someone uses it to get into Q3 - but the trade-off wouldn't appear to make that a worthwhile strategy.

So Hards and Medium it is then, and a minimum 2 stopper, which should at least spice things up a bit

Un Pilier wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:03 am

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:48 am In a bit of a surprise decision, the FIA have come down on Renault's side in the Tracing Paper case. 15 point penalty and a 400,000 Euro fine.

Expect an appeal

Just the rear ducts apparently- the front ducts had been copied but were used in 2019 when that was legal. The rear ducts were new on this year’s car and thus judged to have transgressed. No indication yet of an appeal. As far as I can tell the judgement looks pretty sound but it’s a severe penalty.

Renault and McLaren both making very loud noises about appealing the penalty, saying that it's nowhere near enough

Both sides have 24 hours to submit any appeal

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:56 pm

Un Pilier wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:03 am

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:48 am In a bit of a surprise decision, the FIA have come down on Renault's side in the Tracing Paper case. 15 point penalty and a 400,000 Euro fine.

Expect an appeal

Just the rear ducts apparently- the front ducts had been copied but were used in 2019 when that was legal. The rear ducts were new on this year’s car and thus judged to have transgressed. No indication yet of an appeal. As far as I can tell the judgement looks pretty sound but it’s a severe penalty.

Renault and McLaren both making very loud noises about appealing the penalty, saying that it's nowhere near enough

Both sides have 24 hours to submit any appeal

From what I heard on Sky; they get to keep the illegal ducts, for the rest of the season, with no further penalty ?

That seems a little odd, if my understanding is correct; & I can see why other teams would be pissed.

fishfoodie wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:59 pm

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:56 pm

Un Pilier wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:03 am

Just the rear ducts apparently- the front ducts had been copied but were used in 2019 when that was legal. The rear ducts were new on this year’s car and thus judged to have transgressed. No indication yet of an appeal. As far as I can tell the judgement looks pretty sound but it’s a severe penalty.

Renault and McLaren both making very loud noises about appealing the penalty, saying that it's nowhere near enough

Both sides have 24 hours to submit any appeal

From what I heard on Sky; they get to keep the illegal ducts, for the rest of the season, with no further penalty ?

That seems a little odd, if my understanding is correct; & I can see why other teams would be pissed.

Designing a new brake duct assembly isn;t something you can do on the back of a fag packet

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:05 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:59 pm

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:56 pm

Renault and McLaren both making very loud noises about appealing the penalty, saying that it's nowhere near enough

Both sides have 24 hours to submit any appeal

From what I heard on Sky; they get to keep the illegal ducts, for the rest of the season, with no further penalty ?

That seems a little odd, if my understanding is correct; & I can see why other teams would be pissed.

Designing a new brake duct assembly isn;t something you can do on the back of a fag packet

Didn't they have one in 2019 ?

Bet I could design one one a napkin though

fishfoodie wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:08 pm

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:05 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:59 pm

From what I heard on Sky; they get to keep the illegal ducts, for the rest of the season, with no further penalty ?

That seems a little odd, if my understanding is correct; & I can see why other teams would be pissed.

Designing a new brake duct assembly isn;t something you can do on the back of a fag packet

Didn't they have one in 2019 ?

Bet I could design one one a napkin though

There's a strong chance last years won't even fit; given that Racing Point moved from high rake last season the rear suspension is likely very different and therefore the space for the duct will be different

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:22 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:08 pm

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:05 pm

Designing a new brake duct assembly isn;t something you can do on the back of a fag packet

Didn't they have one in 2019 ?

Bet I could design one one a napkin though

There's a strong chance last years won't even fit; given that Racing Point moved from high rake last season the rear suspension is likely very different and therefore the space for the duct will be different

So they might have to produces a bubble gum & tape solution for a couple of races; but the point is, why should they be allowed to continue to benefit ?

fishfoodie wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:48 pm

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:22 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:08 pm

Didn't they have one in 2019 ?

Bet I could design one one a napkin though

There's a strong chance last years won't even fit; given that Racing Point moved from high rake last season the rear suspension is likely very different and therefore the space for the duct will be different

So they might have to produces a bubble gum & tape solution for a couple of races; but the point is, why should they be allowed to continue to benefit ?

A bubble gum & tape solution would be unsafe - they wouldn't be allowed to race.

The penalty imposed is described by the stewards as for the whole season, so if they were to swap out the duct then the penalty would be reduced as well

And you still come back to the problem of now they know the aero properties of that design they're going to end up with something extremely similar anyway

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:21 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:48 pm

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:22 pm

There's a strong chance last years won't even fit; given that Racing Point moved from high rake last season the rear suspension is likely very different and therefore the space for the duct will be different

So they might have to produces a bubble gum & tape solution for a couple of races; but the point is, why should they be allowed to continue to benefit ?

A bubble gum & tape solution would be unsafe - they wouldn't be allowed to race.

The penalty imposed is described by the stewards as for the whole season, so if they were to swap out the duct then the penalty would be reduced as well

And you still come back to the problem of now they know the aero properties of that design they're going to end up with something extremely similar anyway

Yeah, safety would be the only concern; but wouldn't it be reasonable for the team to be given a deadline for removing the illegal parts ?

On the race front, did I just hear a Ferrari rod grenade thru a Ferrari oil pan ?

fishfoodie wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:28 pm

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:21 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:48 pm

So they might have to produces a bubble gum & tape solution for a couple of races; but the point is, why should they be allowed to continue to benefit ?

A bubble gum & tape solution would be unsafe - they wouldn't be allowed to race.

The penalty imposed is described by the stewards as for the whole season, so if they were to swap out the duct then the penalty would be reduced as well

And you still come back to the problem of now they know the aero properties of that design they're going to end up with something extremely similar anyway

Yeah, safety would be the only concern; but wouldn't it be reasonable for the team to be given a deadline for removing the illegal parts ?

On the race front, did I just hear a Ferrari rod grenade thru a Ferrari oil pan ?

I just don't know how realistic it would be. I would guess the stewards don't think so


That Ferrari engine was literally bleeding to death

Ferrari, McCartney, and Renault all appealing the Tracing Point punishment.

Ferrari really ought to keep quiet, unless they're prepared to release the details of their deal with the FIA

I'm still expecting Racing Point to appeal the verdict itself

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:43 pm Ferrari, McCartney, and Renault all appealing the Tracing Point punishment.

Ferrari really ought to keep quiet, unless they're prepared to release the details of their deal with the FIA

I'm still expecting Racing Point to appeal the verdict itself

I don’t know. Originally I thought the penalty (specifically the points deduction) might be quite severe but it hadn’t really sunk in on first reading that TP could carry on using the offending duct for the remainder of the season. The appeals are no doubt intended to further the debate about “copying” cars so I’d be surprised if TP wanted to get further into that. I share your surprise about Ferrari getting involved.

Un Pilier wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:02 am

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:43 pm Ferrari, McCartney, and Renault all appealing the Tracing Point punishment.

Ferrari really ought to keep quiet, unless they're prepared to release the details of their deal with the FIA

I'm still expecting Racing Point to appeal the verdict itself

I don’t know. Originally I thought the penalty (specifically the points deduction) might be quite severe but it hadn’t really sunk in on first reading that TP could carry on using the offending duct for the remainder of the season. The appeals are no doubt intended to further the debate about “copying” cars so I’d be surprised if TP wanted to get further into that. I share your surprise about Ferrari getting involved.

The counter argument to banning their use of it is that they won’t have a self designed replacement that they can readily use. Banning the use would effectively say to tracing point that you’re out for the season or at least until you have a new design, tested and ready to go that won’t comprise the overall competitiveness of the team. I’d look at that as a team and say what’s the point in having a team there this season.

Excellent Quali that,

hundreths separating the mercs,

awesome from Hulk for P3. Stroll keeping a seat for next season will be a fucking joke.

Un Pilier wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:02 am

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:43 pm Ferrari, McCartney, and Renault all appealing the Tracing Point punishment.

Ferrari really ought to keep quiet, unless they're prepared to release the details of their deal with the FIA

I'm still expecting Racing Point to appeal the verdict itself

I don’t know. Originally I thought the penalty (specifically the points deduction) might be quite severe but it hadn’t really sunk in on first reading that TP could carry on using the offending duct for the remainder of the season. The appeals are no doubt intended to further the debate about “copying” cars so I’d be surprised if TP wanted to get further into that. I share your surprise about Ferrari getting involved.

So, there are now 5 teams appealing the verdict. Williams have joined the trio, and TP have submitted their appeal

Insane_Homer wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:09 pm Excellent Quali that,

hundreths separating the mercs,

awesome from Hulk for P3. Stroll keeping a seat for next season will be a fucking joke.

Excellent quali, and phenomenal lap from The Hulk

Max starting on the Hard tyre could spice the race up a pot

ScarfaceClaw wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:09 am

Un Pilier wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:02 am

Saint wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:43 pm Ferrari, McCartney, and Renault all appealing the Tracing Point punishment.

Ferrari really ought to keep quiet, unless they're prepared to release the details of their deal with the FIA

I'm still expecting Racing Point to appeal the verdict itself

I don’t know. Originally I thought the penalty (specifically the points deduction) might be quite severe but it hadn’t really sunk in on first reading that TP could carry on using the offending duct for the remainder of the season. The appeals are no doubt intended to further the debate about “copying” cars so I’d be surprised if TP wanted to get further into that. I share your surprise about Ferrari getting involved.

The counter argument to banning their use of it is that they won’t have a self designed replacement that they can readily use. Banning the use would effectively say to tracing point that you’re out for the season or at least until you have a new design, tested and ready to go that won’t comprise the overall competitiveness of the team. I’d look at that as a team and say what’s the point in having a team there this season.

Yes, but I’m not saying their use should be banned, certainly not immediately. Is the points deduction high enough? Because it’s that which determines the team’s finances next year and all the other mid-field teams have a huge stake in that. First I thought it was harsh. Now, having worked it through, I don’t.

Un Pilier wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:58 pm

ScarfaceClaw wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:09 am

Un Pilier wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:02 am

I don’t know. Originally I thought the penalty (specifically the points deduction) might be quite severe but it hadn’t really sunk in on first reading that TP could carry on using the offending duct for the remainder of the season. The appeals are no doubt intended to further the debate about “copying” cars so I’d be surprised if TP wanted to get further into that. I share your surprise about Ferrari getting involved.

The counter argument to banning their use of it is that they won’t have a self designed replacement that they can readily use. Banning the use would effectively say to tracing point that you’re out for the season or at least until you have a new design, tested and ready to go that won’t comprise the overall competitiveness of the team. I’d look at that as a team and say what’s the point in having a team there this season.

Yes, but I’m not saying their use should be banned, certainly not immediately. Is the points deduction high enough? Because it’s that which determines the team’s finances next year and all the other mid-field teams have a huge stake in that. First I thought it was harsh. Now, having worked it through, I don’t.

I think the realistic question here is how much benefit are they gaining. Realistically, it's bot that much as I understand it. If it were the front ducts that's a different question - Mercedes had 4 different front duct designs that they swapped out last season based on track characteristics - because the front duct impacts everything that happens aero wise. The rear duct has much less impact.

Worth listening to Toto on this as well - he rips the entire process to pieces

Will Lewis make it to the end and beat out Max? Hulk still running 5th

Red Bull...f@cking brilliant strategy today. Damn....

Max wins. And gulp....Albon in 5th

Hulk finished 7th

Excellent performance by Red Bull today. Max was superb (I love his radio traffic ) and Alex Albon put in a much better performance with some high quality and bold overtaking. Maybe the Merc just carried too much downforce for the combination of heat / pressures / high-speed corners? I didn’t see any other cars blistering their tyres like that.

Un Pilier wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:01 pm Excellent performance by Red Bull today. Max was superb (I love his radio traffic ) and Alex Albon put in a much better performance with some high quality and bold overtaking. Maybe the Merc just carried too much downforce for the combination of heat / pressures / high-speed corners? I didn’t see any other cars blistering their tyres like that.

I loved the post race when Bottas and Hamilton were looking at their tires and then looking at everyone's else with the WTF look

Silverstone sux. 3 passes by Albin at Copse and some burst tyres. Booooring.

Interesting race. As has happened in teh past, Mercedes got caught napping due to complacency and failing to consider their options beyond the purely conventional.

Saint wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:58 am Interesting race. As has happened in teh past, Mercedes got caught napping due to complacency and failing to consider their options beyond the purely conventional.

Meh, fastest car for 4 years so they don’t have to try anything unconventional. And if they do everyone else copies it and it just becomes the norm.

Sandstorm wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:01 am

Saint wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:58 am Interesting race. As has happened in teh past, Mercedes got caught napping due to complacency and failing to consider their options beyond the purely conventional.

Meh, fastest car for 4 years so they don’t have to try anything unconventional. And if they do everyone else copies it and it just becomes the norm.

Mostly you;re right - but when they get pushed out of their comfort zone/perfect conditions, they don;t consider their options, and just assume that their performance advantage will carry them through. Even then, they often get away with it

The Mercs finished 2nd and 3rd, and took the fastest lap, not exactly a roaring failure. They might even have done a little better with a stronger start from Hulk

Sandstorm wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:01 pm Silverstone sux. 3 passes by Albin at Copse and some burst tyres. Booooring.

Not been watching the F2 then?

Nothing wrong with Silverstone that the forthcoming Aero Regs changes won’t sort out, if their intentions prove to be realised.

Un Pilier wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:23 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:01 pm Silverstone sux. 3 passes by Albin at Copse and some burst tyres. Booooring.

Not been watching the F2 then?

Nothing wrong with Silverstone that the forthcoming Aero Regs changes won’t sort out, if their intentions prove to be realised.

I'm not sure why a different classification being different speaks to Silverstone being other than a poor circuit for overtaking in F1. There is a lot to like about the circuit, hopefully changes will come that really deliver improvements, just as things stand it is on the boring side, as actually are a lot of F1 circuits.

Speaking of F2, Dan Ticktum doesn’t seem to have matured a whole lot. Pretty embarrassing I thought.

Ilott and Aitkin, on the other hand, still show promise and Mick Schumacher is showing it’s not just the name that got him into F2.

F2 is usually great racing, people, if you haven’t tried it. And you get to see the rising stars before most solely F1 fans. Most recently, Lando, Russell, Gasly, Albon, Latifi and particularly Le Clerc have all featured strongly. It really does sort out the wheat from the chaff.

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:31 pm

Un Pilier wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:23 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:01 pm Silverstone sux. 3 passes by Albin at Copse and some burst tyres. Booooring.

Not been watching the F2 then?

Nothing wrong with Silverstone that the forthcoming Aero Regs changes won’t sort out, if their intentions prove to be realised.

I'm not sure why a different classification being different speaks to Silverstone being other than a poor circuit for overtaking in F1. There is a lot to like about the circuit, hopefully changes will come that really deliver improvements, just as things stand it is on the boring side, as actually are a lot of F1 circuits.

Because the circuit isn’t boring. Formula 1 is boring because it’s virtually impossible to follow within a second or two of another car for any length of time and therefore almost impossible to set up overtaking opportunities unless you are something like two seconds a lap quicker which is a huge margin in F1 terms. As you say, a lot of circuits suffer from this . Can you name a circuit good for overtaking? Silverstone, with it’s wonderful sequences of high speed corners, suffers as much as any. These cars couldn’t even follow closely on an Indycar Oval.

The rule changes planned for next year have been delayed until 2022. Even then I doubt they will be sufficient. Until then, if you like proper racing, try F2 is my advice.