Gumboot wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 1:46 am Sooo... Beauden's playing well at 15. Jordie's playing well at 12. Richie's playing well at 10, and no doubt benefitting from the other two playing well. The 'starting ten' debate is over. And the new-ish assistant coaches are clearly earning their dosh...
Would've thought you'd be absolutely delighted, Guy.
I am not saying that BB did not play well but I am arguing that Jordan at 15 offers more than BB, due to the greater scope for joining the backline he would have from 15 over 14.Gumboot wrote: Sun Jul 16, 2023 11:42 pm Nah, I don't agree, either. Barrett's playing well at 15, and Jordan had a great game at 14 on Saturday. Barrett's experience is invaluable considering how raw our other outside backs like Telea, Narawa and Stevenson are. And I'd take Beauden (or McKenzie) as the last line of defence over either Jordan or Stevenson any day of the week. He's really not a bad space-filler.
I don't remember any really glaring defensive frailties by Jordan at 15 for the Crusaders and he was an highly creative member of the backline on many occasions, joining the line to great effect. He also did not get in Richie's way at first receiver the way BB still is prone to do.Gumboot wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 5:49 am Kiwias,
I just keep coming back to the defensive side of things. There's a lot more responsibility on the fullback in that regard, and that may well stifle Jordan's creative effectiveness. Wings tend to be given a bit more leeway - just look at how many chances the defensively inept Caleb Clarke has been given. Jordan's said that Foster has now given him licence to roam, and wants to see him in the middle of the field more, and he sure did that against the Boks, to great effect. His kick chase is also top notch - something we'd likely see quite a bit less of if he was at fullback.
Not saying Jordan's not a fine fullback, but, much like other fullback/wings of the past - Bender and Cory Jane spring to mind - I think he's probably better suited to 14 at test level. For this year, anyway.
I am glad I was not the only one to react the same way to this. RMo never hesitated.Guy Smiley wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 5:37 am I thought it was telling that after both Barrett brothers moving up and taking restart kicks at various moments, Mo'unga took the 50m penalty kick for himself and drilled it...
Parsons and Bryn Hall talked about the issue of allowing him to be in control of the game. Their phrase is 'having the keys to the car' and we've talked about this in here before. I've no issue with varying the attack through the use of a second kicker, I mentioned Stevenson complementing DMac this year and how Jordan and Mo'unga showed an understanding together as well. I don't see that working with BB or Jordie, who also likes to swing the boot from 12. I don't see either of them coming in and complementing other players.
To see RMo claim and roost that penalty kick was a bit of a statement.
Jordan was caught out of position once last year... left a big hole. Can't remember whether that was a test or not, I think it was.Kiwias wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:03 amI don't remember any really glaring defensive frailties by Jordan at 15 for the Crusaders and he was an highly creative member of the backline on many occasions, joining the line to great effect. He also did not get in Richie's way at first receiver the way BB still is prone to do.Gumboot wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 5:49 am Kiwias,
I just keep coming back to the defensive side of things. There's a lot more responsibility on the fullback in that regard, and that may well stifle Jordan's creative effectiveness. Wings tend to be given a bit more leeway - just look at how many chances the defensively inept Caleb Clarke has been given. Jordan's said that Foster has now given him licence to roam, and wants to see him in the middle of the field more, and he sure did that against the Boks, to great effect. His kick chase is also top notch - something we'd likely see quite a bit less of if he was at fullback.
Not saying Jordan's not a fine fullback, but, much like other fullback/wings of the past - Bender and Cory Jane spring to mind - I think he's probably better suited to 14 at test level. For this year, anyway.
An utter disgrace. Hanging is too good for him!Guy Smiley wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:10 amJordan was caught out of position once last year... left a big hole. Can't remember whether that was a test or not, I think it was.Kiwias wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:03 amI don't remember any really glaring defensive frailties by Jordan at 15 for the Crusaders and he was an highly creative member of the backline on many occasions, joining the line to great effect. He also did not get in Richie's way at first receiver the way BB still is prone to do.Gumboot wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 5:49 am Kiwias,
I just keep coming back to the defensive side of things. There's a lot more responsibility on the fullback in that regard, and that may well stifle Jordan's creative effectiveness. Wings tend to be given a bit more leeway - just look at how many chances the defensively inept Caleb Clarke has been given. Jordan's said that Foster has now given him licence to roam, and wants to see him in the middle of the field more, and he sure did that against the Boks, to great effect. His kick chase is also top notch - something we'd likely see quite a bit less of if he was at fullback.
Not saying Jordan's not a fine fullback, but, much like other fullback/wings of the past - Bender and Cory Jane spring to mind - I think he's probably better suited to 14 at test level. For this year, anyway.
The problem though, with having one player out of position is you have to ask where the ret of the defense was at... and who was or was not organising the line.
Yep, that's why I said at test level. But I don't think the "Beauden gets in Richie's way" thing is as big an issue as it's made out to be by some, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.Kiwias wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:03 amI don't remember any really glaring defensive frailties by Jordan at 15 for the Crusaders and he was an highly creative member of the backline on many occasions, joining the line to great effect. He also did not get in Richie's way at first receiver the way BB still is prone to do.
This year would have been ideal but Foz has basically scuppered that plan. I reckon we are stuck with BB at 15 for the WC.Gumboot wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:26 am And it's not so much that I think his defence would be a massive liability at 15, but that the added responsibility could very well detract from his attacking creativity. Also, he hasn't been tested there at all yet; is now really the time to do that?
Stevenson and Narawa. Leicester's gornburgers.Gumboot wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:22 amYep, that's why I said at test level. But I don't think the "Beauden gets in Richie's way" thing is as big an issue as it's made out to be by some, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.Kiwias wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:03 amI don't remember any really glaring defensive frailties by Jordan at 15 for the Crusaders and he was an highly creative member of the backline on many occasions, joining the line to great effect. He also did not get in Richie's way at first receiver the way BB still is prone to do.
Just out of interest, if Jordan's your fullback, who are your wings? Assuming you'd want Leicester at 11 right now, but what about next year, when Jordan may have a clear run at 15 under Razor.
I'd be happy with JB at 12 and ALB at 13, Rieko at 11, and Narawa or Stevenson at 14.Guy Smiley wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:31 amStevenson and Narawa. Leicester's gornburgers.Gumboot wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:22 amYep, that's why I said at test level. But I don't think the "Beauden gets in Richie's way" thing is as big an issue as it's made out to be by some, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.Kiwias wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:03 amI don't remember any really glaring defensive frailties by Jordan at 15 for the Crusaders and he was an highly creative member of the backline on many occasions, joining the line to great effect. He also did not get in Richie's way at first receiver the way BB still is prone to do.
Just out of interest, if Jordan's your fullback, who are your wings? Assuming you'd want Leicester at 11 right now, but what about next year, when Jordan may have a clear run at 15 under Razor.
Before Goodhue's move north was announced, I'd have had Rieko back on the wing where he belongs.
Guy Smiley wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:35 am Also... on defense.
Both BB and Rieko capitalise on their pace to run attacking players down. They have the luxury of doing that because they leave fucking great gaps for attacking players to run through.
I think you will find Kwagga was one of the busiest bok forwards on Saturday bud. Made around 15 tackles I think, scored a try for good measure to. Whilst I agree Marco had a good game the week before, I am definitely seeing some recency bias from a lot of bok supporters. One good game does not make you a permanent starter. Also, playing against a pretty shyte Aus in SA versus playing high flying NZ in NZ is not exactly apples with apples. Another example is Andre Esterhuizen, who again had an outstanding game against Aus, should apparently be starting ahead of DDA. One game does not earn you that right. Everybody seems to forget how crap his been in the Bok jersey. Don't get me wrong, if he can repeat that performance consistently when given the chance, then I'd prefer him. He has a better passing game and isn't as one dimensional as DDA. Following on from the same train of thought, I'm not worried about Am, he's too much class not to hit his straps soon.assfly wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 5:48 am My thoughts on the Bok game.
1. Completely blitzed in the first 20. We looked completely shocked by it. I said earlier last week that one of our biggest risks in this match was the cobwebs surrounding some of our players, but I didn't quite expect that. It was particularly noticeable from our Japan and UK based players.
2. Willemse is not a 10. He is a wonderful player, and I'd like to see him at 12 or 15 more, but he is 100% not a flyhalf. We may have well have started with Willie at 10, the amount of times he took the ball in that channel.
3. We really miss Kolisi. Not a good outing from Kwagga either, but at least Marco van Staden is big enough to make an impact at the breakdown, Kwagga was totally missing in action.
4. I don't know what is going on with our lineout. Did we even compete for a single AB ball? We have so many good jumpers in the team, it's crazy we didn't put them under pressure.
5. Am needs to wake up. He wasn't great for the $harks when he came back from injury, and he isn't looking much better. Our defensive play was a total embarrassment, which is normally his strength.
6. If Williams can sort out his box-kicking, he could be the starting 9 at the world cup.
I get Kwagga's workrate, but he got bullied in contact. I'm not calling for Marco to be a permanent starter, as far as I'm concerned both are just keeping Kolisi's seat warm until he's back.LoveOfTheGame wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:56 am I think you will find Kwagga was one of the busiest bok forwards on Saturday bud. Made around 15 tackles I think, scored a try for good measure to. Whilst I agree Marco had a good game the week before, I am definitely seeing some recency bias from a lot of bok supporters. One good game does not make you a permanent starter. Also, playing against a pretty shyte Aus in SA versus playing high flying NZ in NZ is not exactly apples with apples. Another example is Andre Esterhuizen, who again had an outstanding game against Aus, should apparently be starting ahead of DDA. One game does not earn you that right. Everybody seems to forget how crap his been in the Bok jersey. Don't get me wrong, if he can repeat that performance consistently when given the chance, then I'd prefer him. He has a better passing game and isn't as one dimensional as DDA. Following on from the same train of thought, I'm not worried about Am, he's too much class not to hit his straps soon.
As for Damian Willemse at 10. Agree 110%. That's Rassie and Nienaber's fault. Pollard will resolve that issue when he returns, with Manie as backup.
I like Williams too, I really do. He's got speed to burn as well. Got a bright future ahead of him.
Yeah, not sure Sards. Your lot will be busy here ripping in to each other with your partisan views on players.Sards wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:53 am Must be nice knowing that after smashing the boks , the Kiwis have this thread all to themselves
You will find that on the Springboks going forward thread. I think my fellow Saffers are embarrassed after all the chest beating last week. As I am.Ymx wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:49 amYeah, not sure Sards. Your lot will be busy here ripping in to each other with your partisan views on players.Sards wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:53 am Must be nice knowing that after smashing the boks , the Kiwis have this thread all to themselves
Not that we’d be much different. Perhaps a few less death threats.
Kwagga is not a 7. I met him once at the licensing dept and he's light weight. He's a light mobile loose forward more suited to 6.OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:28 am Its not about Kwagga, its about what they want from a 6 flanker and the combination with 7 & 8. We have proper 6s in Escom and Fourie. They need game time .
Kwagga and PSdT is more a 7s like flankers.
Meaning he play like a 7. Good ball skills , defending, speed exct. He is not a fetcher.average joe wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:57 amKwagga is not a 7. I met him once at the licensing dept and he's light weight. He's a light mobile loose forward more suited to 6.OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:28 am Its not about Kwagga, its about what they want from a 6 flanker and the combination with 7 & 8. We have proper 6s in Escom and Fourie. They need game time .
Kwagga and PSdT is more a 7s like flankers.
The chest beating came from a couple of neutrals who called us the Greatest Team Ever Probably.Sards wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:52 amYou will find that on the Springboks going forward thread. I think my fellow Saffers are embarrassed after all the chest beating last week. As I am.Ymx wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:49 amYeah, not sure Sards. Your lot will be busy here ripping in to each other with your partisan views on players.Sards wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:53 am Must be nice knowing that after smashing the boks , the Kiwis have this thread all to themselves
Not that we’d be much different. Perhaps a few less death threats.
Anyway you lot were top class
You should be Sards. All things considered, you should constantly be embarrassed with everything you post.Sards wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:52 amYou will find that on the Springboks going forward thread. I think my fellow Saffers are embarrassed after all the chest beating last week. As I am.Ymx wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:49 amYeah, not sure Sards. Your lot will be busy here ripping in to each other with your partisan views on players.Sards wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:53 am Must be nice knowing that after smashing the boks , the Kiwis have this thread all to themselves
Not that we’d be much different. Perhaps a few less death threats.
Anyway you lot were top class
Not all 6 are fetchers and you don't always need a fetcher at 6 if you have one or two somewhere ells. The core skills you've mentioned are more suited to a 6. In SA 7 is traditionally a big bruiser, 3de lineout option, strong in defence, bash it up sort of player.OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 9:52 amMeaning he play like a 7. Good ball skills , defending, speed exct. He is not a fetcher.average joe wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:57 amKwagga is not a 7. I met him once at the licensing dept and he's light weight. He's a light mobile loose forward more suited to 6.OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:28 am Its not about Kwagga, its about what they want from a 6 flanker and the combination with 7 & 8. We have proper 6s in Escom and Fourie. They need game time .
Kwagga and PSdT is more a 7s like flankers.
