NPR

Mahoney wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:50 am

Lobby wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:39 amRather than 'stagnant', the ref should call use it as soon as the ball has been presented at the base of the ruck. Its quite common for the ball to be lying at the base of the ruck and clearly available, only for the SH to call in five other players to form a caterpillar. If the ref called use it when the ball was available, and enforced the 5 second limit, there wouldn't be time for the caterpillar to be set up.

I suspect we mean the same thing. By "stagnant" I mean that a) the ball has been presented at the base of the ruck and b) the ruck is not currently moving. I don't think the ref should call "use it" if the opposition are counter-rucking sufficiently to be making it hard to get the ball out, even if the ball has been presented.

(If the ref calls "use it" and the opposition promptly start counter-rucking, that's fine, of course.)

eldanielfire wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:56 am

Niegs wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:40 pm They say it should be a scrum if not used 'immediately' after use it. All they need to do is adhere to this and the tactic goes away!

I'm not saying do this at every breakdown, but it's fairly obvious when teams plan on using it, so can pull out this standard basketball practice:

Or why not just blow penalities or say players joining the ruck in uncompetitive positions after placement of the ball can not be counted in the ruck. Or blow if "use it" is not followed straight away.

That's what happens in basketball. No warning apart from the silently swinging arm. Fifth swing and the thing (not just inbounding) hasn't happened? TWEET! "Five seconds!"

You love to see it... scrum half walks ball back with his foot in caterpillar. But he's had it drilled into him so much as an 'exit' that he forgot (or didn't know!) the most important caveat here: that there's no ruck in-goal!

Re the caterpillar: I would suggest stick it up your arse as being the sensible response except it might be the next logical evolution of this ploy.

Niegs wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:29 am You love to see it... scrum half walks ball back with his foot in caterpillar. But he's had it drilled into him so much as an 'exit' that he forgot (or didn't know!) the most important caveat here: that there's no ruck in-goal!

MungoMan wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:38 am Re the caterpillar: I would suggest stick it up your arse as being the sensible response except it might be the next logical evolution of this ploy.

Actually, your comment made me think about 'stick it up the jumper' ... could do this off the back of a maul! Turn and present, get four or five blokes to bind on and smuggle the ball back quickly. Much easier box kick.

Remember me when teams start doing this instead.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:27 pm

ASMO wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:19 pm It is an abomination and should be erased from the game

Another of my long term whines. Anyone in front of the ball carrier preventing the opposition making a legitimate tackle is obstruction.

Never thought I’d say this, Torq, but I agree with you 100%! If you can’t legally get at the ball then it has to be obstruction.

So scrums are obstruction? :-)

And rucks. Not that rucks often advance up the field, but in theory they legally could.

Yr Alban wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:47 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:27 pm

ASMO wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:19 pm It is an abomination and should be erased from the game

Another of my long term whines. Anyone in front of the ball carrier preventing the opposition making a legitimate tackle is obstruction.

Never thought I’d say this, Torq, but I agree with you 100%! If you can’t legally get at the ball then it has to be obstruction.

I'm not a League fanatic, but they seem to have very strict rules about obstruction that Union didn't bring across (or adopt if it's a newer thing for League). iirc, the deep runner has to be outside the decoy runner, not inside or behind when the pass is made; and I also don't think the decoy can obstruct a defender's ability to pursue outward?

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:10 pm So scrums are obstruction? :-)

How are you prevented from tackling in a scrum. The current maul is a disgrace and I wish commentators would stop referring to it as a rolling maul, because that it certainly bloody isn't.

Mahoney wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:38 pm And rucks. Not that rucks often advance up the field, but in theory they legally could.

How, exactly.

Same way scrums do - keep pushing forward, player bound on at the back dribbles the ball at their feet.

Rucks are meant to be informal scrums. Just look at the pictures in the lawbook.

(It bears no relationship to how the game is actually played and refereed, of course, like quite a lot of the lawbook.)

Mahoney wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:59 pm Same way scrums do - keep pushing forward, player bound on at the back dribbles the ball at their feet.

Rucks are meant to be informal scrums. Just look at the pictures in the lawbook.

(It bears no relationship to how the game is actually played and refereed, of course, like quite a lot of the lawbook.)

If you had sufficient control to do that keeping the ball in the ruck and moving forwards I can't imagine any ref wouldn't simply say the ball was available as the ruck was over

Blackmac wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:55 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:10 pm So scrums are obstruction? :-)

How are you prevented from tackling in a scrum. The current maul is a disgrace and I wish commentators would stop referring to it as a rolling maul, because that it certainly bloody isn't.

You can't legally get at the ball. You definitely can't tackle anyone in the scrum.

Mauls are fine. Just because it's another set piece where the laws differ, doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. Totally happy for more tweaks if people are unhappy with specifics but there's absolutely no need to remove them. They're a defining feature of the game and work a lot better than scrums right now.

JM2K6 wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:18 am

Blackmac wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:55 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:10 pm So scrums are obstruction? :-)

How are you prevented from tackling in a scrum. The current maul is a disgrace and I wish commentators would stop referring to it as a rolling maul, because that it certainly bloody isn't.

You can't legally get at the ball. You definitely can't tackle anyone in the scrum.

Mauls are fine. Just because it's another set piece where the laws differ, doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. Totally happy for more tweaks if people are unhappy with specifics but there's absolutely no need to remove them. They're a defining feature of the game and work a lot better than scrums right now.

Wasn't saying they should be removed but the player carrying the ball should not be permitted to have his won players in front of him.

JM2K6 wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:18 am

Blackmac wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:55 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:10 pm So scrums are obstruction? :-)

How are you prevented from tackling in a scrum. The current maul is a disgrace and I wish commentators would stop referring to it as a rolling maul, because that it certainly bloody isn't.

You can't legally get at the ball. You definitely can't tackle anyone in the scrum.

Mauls are fine. Just because it's another set piece where the laws differ, doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. Totally happy for more tweaks if people are unhappy with specifics but there's absolutely no need to remove them. They're a defining feature of the game and work a lot better than scrums right now.

A scrum is not open play. No player technically has possession of the ball until it’s out, at which point the scrum is over. There is an (allegedly) fair contest for the ball by means of the scrum shove (OK, we all know it isn’t really and the 9 feeds into the second row, but in theory).

A maul is different. It’s supposed to be open play, but the defending side can’t get to the ball carrier and isn’t allowed to take the maul down. Anyone in front of the ball carrier at a maul is preventing a fair contest for the ball. IMHO of course.

A maul isn't open play, it's a maul.

If it were open play there would be no defensive offside line. But there is, like at a scrum, lineout & ruck, precisely because it's not open play.

And, just like at scrums & rucks, you are allowed to have people in the maul in front of the ball.

Exactly. The maul is a set piece of its own, it just forms more organically than a lineout or a scrum.

I don't have any truck with "legalised obstruction!!!" complaints because obstruction is a pretty limited offence in the first place and clearly does not apply in many cases. It also makes me think that anyone saying it wants to do away with mauls entirely.

Monk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:04 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:57 pm

Monk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:28 pm

agreed on that - imo as soon as he touches the ball it is in play from the breakdown

i was thinking of the players in the ruck playing it back with their feet - which problem still arises

Right, that's what I'm saying. They get one chance to move the ball with their feet. Then they have to play it.

no - the players in a ruck are a unit - they cab play it back

Yeah, if you say the SH can't roll it back, the forwards in the ruck will do it instead, which will mean it'll take even longer.

The refs already have the tools to deal with this - call use it when the ball is available, not after the caterpillar has formed.

Biffer wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:44 pm

Monk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:04 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:57 pm

Right, that's what I'm saying. They get one chance to move the ball with their feet. Then they have to play it.

no - the players in a ruck are a unit - they cab play it back

Yeah, if you say the SH can't roll it back, the forwards in the ruck will do it instead, which will mean it'll take even longer.

The refs already have the tools to deal with this - call use it when the ball is available, not after the caterpillar has formed.

I didn't specify the SH.

Biffer wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:44 pm

Monk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:04 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:57 pm

Right, that's what I'm saying. They get one chance to move the ball with their feet. Then they have to play it.

no - the players in a ruck are a unit - they cab play it back

Yeah, if you say the SH can't roll it back, the forwards in the ruck will do it instead, which will mean it'll take even longer.

The refs already have the tools to deal with this - call use it when the ball is available, not after the caterpillar has formed.

This is it. It's one of those pro things that doesn't really happen in the amateur game but the rare times I see it in my games, I apply the "use it" law once and that's usually the last caterpillar ruck of the game.