18th century Scots poet in political correctness scandal

[Biffer]

What is rap if not poetry?

Rap = Crap.

Definitely not poetry.




Real poetry (if you want to go the musical route):

“Temptation’s page flies out the door / You follow, find yourself at war / Watch waterfalls of pity roar / You feel to moan but unlike before / You discover that you’d just be one more person crying.”

Just because you don't like it doesn't affect what it is. There are equally people who would use the same description for what you've quoted. If you reduce art to 'I like, you like' then it's no longer art.

[troglodiet]

What is rap if not poetry?

Rap = Crap.

Definitely not poetry.




Real poetry (if you want to go the musical route):

“Temptation’s page flies out the door / You follow, find yourself at war / Watch waterfalls of pity roar / You feel to moan but unlike before / You discover that you’d just be one more person crying.”

Just because you don't like it doesn't affect what it is. There are equally people who would use the same description for what you've quoted. If you reduce art to 'I like, you like' then it's no longer art.

Agree actually.


I should maybe have prefixed it with "in my opinion"....


And yes there are rap music I listen to, not much but it's there. My favourite rap song actually enhances your point - Gangsta's Paradise. Re-watched move 2 days ago, what a movie!

[Biffer]

Rap = Crap.

Definitely not poetry.




Real poetry (if you want to go the musical route):

Just because you don't like it doesn't affect what it is. There are equally people who would use the same description for what you've quoted. If you reduce art to 'I like, you like' then it's no longer art.

Agree actually.


I should maybe have prefixed it with "in my opinion"....


And yes there are rap music I listen to, not much but it's there. My favourite rap song actually enhances your point - Gangsta's Paradise. Re-watched move 2 days ago, what a movie!

Yeah, not going to pretend I'm a massive fan but there are bits of Dre I like and some older stuff like PM Dawn. More up to date I think Kate Tempest is genuinely a poet and Loyle Carner is pretty damn good too.

[Torquemada 1420]

However, it's interesting on the subject of Burns to read that poetry doesn't contribute anything to the economy, Burns nights generate over £100M for the food, drinks and venue industries in Scotland and a further £200M in world-wide sales (Glasgow uni report).

Not looking for a sh*t fight but surely that's an odd ball exception? If there were not a specific night of celebration, then attaching a monetary value to the work of Burns would be nigh impossible. If we were being uncharitable, the Scots and some others don't need much excuse for a p*ss up and aside from addressing the haggis, Burns' works don't really factor much into the celebration.

Pretty sure the Greeks would struggle to place a monetary value upon Homer and the Italians upon Dante......

[Insane_Homer]

[Torquemada 1420]

Should we always be judging or otherwise evaluating art and academia by immediate economic value?

Yes and no.


In the widest context, absolutely not. Probably the reverse e.g. look at the cost of conserving artworks. But........... there's always going to be heated debate over which arts merit funding if it is from the public purse.

[Slick]

However, it's interesting on the subject of Burns to read that poetry doesn't contribute anything to the economy, Burns nights generate over £100M for the food, drinks and venue industries in Scotland and a further £200M in world-wide sales (Glasgow uni report).

Not looking for a sh*t fight but surely that's an odd ball exception? If there were not a specific night of celebration, then attaching a monetary value to the work of Burns would be nigh impossible. If we were being uncharitable, the Scots and some others don't need much excuse for a p*ss up and aside from addressing the haggis, Burns' works don't really factor much into the celebration.

Pretty sure the Greeks would struggle to place a monetary value upon Homer and the Italians upon Dante......

Erm, I'm going to be charitable and suggest you haven't been to a Burns Supper? The entire night is based around his poems, songs and his life

[Torquemada 1420]

However, it's interesting on the subject of Burns to read that poetry doesn't contribute anything to the economy, Burns nights generate over £100M for the food, drinks and venue industries in Scotland and a further £200M in world-wide sales (Glasgow uni report).

Not looking for a sh*t fight but surely that's an odd ball exception? If there were not a specific night of celebration, then attaching a monetary value to the work of Burns would be nigh impossible. If we were being uncharitable, the Scots and some others don't need much excuse for a p*ss up and aside from addressing the haggis, Burns' works don't really factor much into the celebration.

Pretty sure the Greeks would struggle to place a monetary value upon Homer and the Italians upon Dante......

Erm, I'm going to be charitable and suggest you haven't been to a Burns Supper? The entire night is based around his poems, songs and his life

Been to many but maybe the ones I've attended (including in Edinburgh) merely paid lip service. A bit like inactionman^^^ post above.

But I guess that's not relevant to the point I was making i.e. were there not a specific, official date in the calendar for a shindig, then Burns would be no different to anyone else in regards economic impact. Maybe Shakespeare the exception.

[Slick]

Not looking for a sh*t fight but surely that's an odd ball exception? If there were not a specific night of celebration, then attaching a monetary value to the work of Burns would be nigh impossible. If we were being uncharitable, the Scots and some others don't need much excuse for a p*ss up and aside from addressing the haggis, Burns' works don't really factor much into the celebration.

Pretty sure the Greeks would struggle to place a monetary value upon Homer and the Italians upon Dante......

Erm, I'm going to be charitable and suggest you haven't been to a Burns Supper? The entire night is based around his poems, songs and his life

Been to many but maybe the ones I've attended (including in Edinburgh) merely paid lip service. A bit like inactionman^^^ post above.

But I guess that's not relevant to the point I was making i.e. were there not a specific, official date in the calendar for a shindig, then Burns would be no different to anyone else in regards economic impact. Maybe Shakespeare the exception.

eh? inactionman was talking about microwaving a veggie haggis at home with the kids!

[inactionman]

Erm, I'm going to be charitable and suggest you haven't been to a Burns Supper? The entire night is based around his poems, songs and his life

Been to many but maybe the ones I've attended (including in Edinburgh) merely paid lip service. A bit like inactionman^^^ post above.

But I guess that's not relevant to the point I was making i.e. were there not a specific, official date in the calendar for a shindig, then Burns would be no different to anyone else in regards economic impact. Maybe Shakespeare the exception.

eh? inactionman was talking about microwaving a veggie haggis at home with the kids!

Aye, that's about as wild as my life gets at the minute. Not exactly a traditional Burns Night, ol' Rabbie would have fed them gruel and slapped the wife.

[Slick]

Been to many but maybe the ones I've attended (including in Edinburgh) merely paid lip service. A bit like inactionman^^^ post above.

But I guess that's not relevant to the point I was making i.e. were there not a specific, official date in the calendar for a shindig, then Burns would be no different to anyone else in regards economic impact. Maybe Shakespeare the exception.

eh? inactionman was talking about microwaving a veggie haggis at home with the kids!

Aye, that's about as wild as my life gets at the minute. Not exactly a traditional Burns Night, ol' Rabbie would have fed them gruel and slapped the wife.

Ours involved "piping" in the haggis to Flower of Scotland through speakers, me fumbling through the toast then lying to kids about what was in the haggis. All good fun.

[Torquemada 1420]

eh? inactionman was talking about microwaving a veggie haggis at home with the kids!

I'm clearly not explaining this well. My point is the economic generation is down to it being a public holiday to celebrate a famous person. His activity is irrelevant: in this case poetry. If Burns had been a famous Arctic explorer, doubtless the spending would be the same. Except maybe a slight increase in ice cream sales.

[Tichtheid]

However, it's interesting on the subject of Burns to read that poetry doesn't contribute anything to the economy, Burns nights generate over £100M for the food, drinks and venue industries in Scotland and a further £200M in world-wide sales (Glasgow uni report).

Not looking for a sh*t fight but surely that's an odd ball exception? If there were not a specific night of celebration, then attaching a monetary value to the work of Burns would be nigh impossible. If we were being uncharitable, the Scots and some others don't need much excuse for a p*ss up and aside from addressing the haggis, Burns' works don't really factor much into the celebration.

Pretty sure the Greeks would struggle to place a monetary value upon Homer and the Italians upon Dante......

If you read subsequent posts I intimated that poets don't go into it for the money, and also that that particular post was in response to complaints from other posters on how "their" tax was being spent.

On the cultural stereotyping, I was actually surprised when I came to Brighton by how much more people smoked and drank compared to what I was used to in Edinburgh and small town Scotland.

We definitely had the edge on the amount of casual violence, though

When I lived and worked in France for several years, they drank and fought as much as the Scots did

[Torquemada 1420]

If you read subsequent posts I intimated that poets don't go into it for the money, and also that that particular post was in response to complaints from other posters on how "their" tax was being spent.

On the cultural stereotyping, I was actually surprised when I came to Brighton by how much more people smoked and drank compared to what I was used to in Edinburgh and small town Scotland.

We definitely had the edge on the amount of casual violence, though

When I lived and worked in France for several years, they drank and fought as much as the Scots did

Where were you in France?

[Slick]

Glasgeux

[Tichtheid]

If you read subsequent posts I intimated that poets don't go into it for the money, and also that that particular post was in response to complaints from other posters on how "their" tax was being spent.

On the cultural stereotyping, I was actually surprised when I came to Brighton by how much more people smoked and drank compared to what I was used to in Edinburgh and small town Scotland.

We definitely had the edge on the amount of casual violence, though

When I lived and worked in France for several years, they drank and fought as much as the Scots did

Where were you in France?

Pyrenees, approximately halfway between Andorra and Perpignan. The local youths used to get drunk and let off steam at the fetes throughout the summer.

[Slick]

If you read subsequent posts I intimated that poets don't go into it for the money, and also that that particular post was in response to complaints from other posters on how "their" tax was being spent.

On the cultural stereotyping, I was actually surprised when I came to Brighton by how much more people smoked and drank compared to what I was used to in Edinburgh and small town Scotland.

We definitely had the edge on the amount of casual violence, though

When I lived and worked in France for several years, they drank and fought as much as the Scots did

Where were you in France?

Pyrenees, approximately halfway between Andorra and Perpignan. The local youths used to get drunk and let off steam at the fetes throughout the summer.

I remember 3 days of absolutely amazing carnage at the Fete de Dax as a youngster. Camping on the side of the river, drinking, eating, dancing, just incredible.

[Plim]

However, it's interesting on the subject of Burns to read that poetry doesn't contribute anything to the economy, Burns nights generate over £100M for the food, drinks and venue industries in Scotland and a further £200M in world-wide sales (Glasgow uni report).

Not looking for a sh*t fight but surely that's an odd ball exception? If there were not a specific night of celebration, then attaching a monetary value to the work of Burns would be nigh impossible. If we were being uncharitable, the Scots and some others don't need much excuse for a p*ss up and aside from addressing the haggis, Burns' works don't really factor much into the celebration.

Pretty sure the Greeks would struggle to place a monetary value upon Homer and the Italians upon Dante......

If you read subsequent posts I intimated that poets don't go into it for the money, and also that that particular post was in response to complaints from other posters on how "their" tax was being spent.

On the cultural stereotyping, I was actually surprised when I came to Brighton by how much more people smoked and drank compared to what I was used to in Edinburgh and small town Scotland.

We definitely had the edge on the amount of casual violence, though

When I lived and worked in France for several years, they drank and fought as much as the Scots did

If the "complaints from other posters" about tax spending was referring to me, as I said I really don't care about this grant for poetry. There's an interesting debate to be had about what the subject matter of publicly supported arts should be, given there'll always be a limited pot; whether some art shouldn't be promoted on public interest grounds (like advocacy of violence or hate); whether some artistic forms are self-funding or too niche or attract rich users (like the Royal Opera House) who should foot the bill; whether arts spending is indirectly assisting commercial interests like record labels, advertising or corporate design; and so on.

But this isn't an example of anything that deserves any time. I think the poets' opinions are just woke posturing and I suspect the commissioned poetry is complete crap. But I'm really not bothered.

I'm not sure I agree that Burns Night is anything to do with the economics of poetry though. It's a national commemoration. The spend is on food and drink, not poetry. Burns's poems are - obviously - out of copyright anyway, so they can be had for free.

[Torquemada 1420]

If you read subsequent posts I intimated that poets don't go into it for the money, and also that that particular post was in response to complaints from other posters on how "their" tax was being spent.

On the cultural stereotyping, I was actually surprised when I came to Brighton by how much more people smoked and drank compared to what I was used to in Edinburgh and small town Scotland.

We definitely had the edge on the amount of casual violence, though

When I lived and worked in France for several years, they drank and fought as much as the Scots did

Where were you in France?

Pyrenees, approximately halfway between Andorra and Perpignan. The local youths used to get drunk and let off steam at the fetes throughout the summer.

It's the Catalan/Spanish influence

[Tichtheid]

Not looking for a sh*t fight but surely that's an odd ball exception? If there were not a specific night of celebration, then attaching a monetary value to the work of Burns would be nigh impossible. If we were being uncharitable, the Scots and some others don't need much excuse for a p*ss up and aside from addressing the haggis, Burns' works don't really factor much into the celebration.

Pretty sure the Greeks would struggle to place a monetary value upon Homer and the Italians upon Dante......

If you read subsequent posts I intimated that poets don't go into it for the money, and also that that particular post was in response to complaints from other posters on how "their" tax was being spent.

On the cultural stereotyping, I was actually surprised when I came to Brighton by how much more people smoked and drank compared to what I was used to in Edinburgh and small town Scotland.

We definitely had the edge on the amount of casual violence, though

When I lived and worked in France for several years, they drank and fought as much as the Scots did

If the "complaints from other posters" about tax spending was referring to me, as I said I really don't care about this grant for poetry. There's an interesting debate to be had about what the subject matter of publicly supported arts should be, given there'll always be a limited pot; whether some art shouldn't be promoted on public interest grounds (like advocacy of violence or hate); whether some artistic forms are self-funding or too niche or attract rich users (like the Royal Opera House) who should foot the bill; whether arts spending is indirectly assisting commercial interests like record labels, advertising or corporate design; and so on.

But this isn't an example of anything that deserves any time. I think the poets' opinions are just woke posturing and I suspect the commissioned poetry is complete crap. But I'm really not bothered.

I don't think it was you who brought up taxpayers' money being spent on this commission, and I agree with pretty much everything you say about the complexities of arts funding.

I disagree that this is "woke posturing", that is terminology deliberately employed by the the Express and its ilk, a bit like the euro myths peddled by the same rags, the so-called "Culture Wars" are a similar ruse used to provoke division, a them and us, it's all very Trumpian, if that is a term.

I thought the poetry was interesting, though I've only read four of the nine pieces so far. I'm not very good with poetry to be honest, I prefer songs.

I think the work can be dismissed or criticised after it has been read and pondered, if it has been approached with an open mind.

[Opensides Butler]

Should we always be judging or otherwise evaluating art and academia by immediate economic value?

Anyway, had our Burns supper but haven't been bothered to toast the haggis - probably as we drink the whisky after the food, and also as the missus has a veggie equivalent that needs to be microwaved. Quite hard to make much ceremony over that. Does anyone actually do the full-fat ceremony? I'm going to assume most would omit the piper.

Also, we made Cranachan both with and sans whisky - I'm all for teaching kids tradition but that's going too far - and I think I prefer the non-whisky version.

I wish.

[troglodiet]

Erm, I'm going to be charitable and suggest you haven't been to a Burns Supper? The entire night is based around his poems, songs and his life

I think you forgot to add the one activity.





(Top tip: for those non-Scottish who has never had Haggis, NEVER, and I repeat NEVER, attempt to find out what's in it. Just eat it in good faith.)

[petej]

I do find this funny in that without the faux outrage these women would have a smaller audience for their poetry. Very effective way of getting attention.

[weegie01]

Erm, I'm going to be charitable and suggest you haven't been to a Burns Supper? The entire night is based around his poems, songs and his life

I think you forgot to add the one activity.

(Top tip: for those non-Scottish who has never had Haggis, NEVER, and I repeat NEVER, attempt to find out what's in it. Just eat it in good faith.)

Or don't.

I hate it with a passion. Nearly as much as I hate Burn's night. Perhaps due to the number of gatherings I attended in foreign lands where people were desperate to prove how authentically Scots they were when most of the time they were as Scottish as Tony Blair.

And you can keep whisky. I have had cough medicine that tastes better.

[GogLais]

Erm, I'm going to be charitable and suggest you haven't been to a Burns Supper? The entire night is based around his poems, songs and his life

I think you forgot to add the one activity.





(Top tip: for those non-Scottish who has never had Haggis, NEVER, and I repeat NEVER, attempt to find out what's in it. Just eat it in good faith.)

I have seen the lights.

[Happyhooker]

Erm, I'm going to be charitable and suggest you haven't been to a Burns Supper? The entire night is based around his poems, songs and his life

I think you forgot to add the one activity.

(Top tip: for those non-Scottish who has never had Haggis, NEVER, and I repeat NEVER, attempt to find out what's in it. Just eat it in good faith.)

Or don't.

I hate it with a passion. Nearly as much as I hate Burn's night. Perhaps due to the number of gatherings I attended in foreign lands where people were desperate to prove how authentically Scots they were when most of the time they were as Scottish as Tony Blair.

And you keep whisky. I have had cough medicine that tastes better.

Bloody hell, you must keep that quiet most of the time.

Although it does remind me of my father who was not one to beat around the bush. When invited to a v Scottish, v posh neighbour's burns night supper, the haggis was piped in (hired piper), the host, in full rig, gave the ode then as the meal started, the host said to dad "geoff, you've a PhD in literature, why don't you give us your favourite piece of burns"

Dad chewed his mouthful, wiped his lips, said "I bloody hate burns" and took a slug of whisky.

16 year old me had never witnessed quite as glacial meal up to that point.

The invite was never repeated

[Tichtheid]

I really like haggis, and to be honest I don't see what the fuss is about regarding what it's made from.

It's not unusual at all to use every single part of an animal, in fact it's wasteful to not do so. Offal is eaten everywhere where meat is eaten, bollocks, brains, feet, eyes, the lot are all eaten across the world.

No biggie.

[GogLais]

I really like haggis, and to be honest I don't see what the fuss is about regarding what it's made from.

It's not unusual at all to use every single part of an animal, in fact it's wasteful to not do so. Offal is eaten everywhere where meat is eaten, bollocks, brains, feet, eyes, the lot are all eaten across the world.

No biggie.

I love it. And whisky. And the bagpipes.

[Happyhooker]

I really like haggis, and to be honest I don't see what the fuss is about regarding what it's made from.

It's not unusual at all to use every single part of an animal, in fact it's wasteful to not do so. Offal is eaten everywhere where meat is eaten, bollocks, brains, feet, eyes, the lot are all eaten across the world.

No biggie.

I love it. And whisky. And the bagpipes.

Yes. Yes. Noooooo.

As someone once said, the very definition of a gentleman is someone who knows how to play the bagpipes but doesn't.

[Tichtheid]

I really like haggis, and to be honest I don't see what the fuss is about regarding what it's made from.

It's not unusual at all to use every single part of an animal, in fact it's wasteful to not do so. Offal is eaten everywhere where meat is eaten, bollocks, brains, feet, eyes, the lot are all eaten across the world.

No biggie.

I love it. And whisky. And the bagpipes.

Yes. Yes. Noooooo.

As someone once said, the very definition of a gentleman is someone who knows how to play the bagpipes but doesn't.

The Great Highland Bagpipe is a rather strident instrument right enough, it's well suited to military use and for buskers drowning out the traffic

[weegie01]

The Great Highland Bagpipe is a rather strident instrument right enough, it's well suited to military use and for buskers drowning out the traffic.

As a complete aside, have you ever heard a Strad or other top class violin in a domestic setting? They are awful. They can't be beaten for throwing the music across an auditorium, but in a domestic setting they are way too harsh.

[Tichtheid]

The Great Highland Bagpipe is a rather strident instrument right enough, it's well suited to military use and for buskers drowning out the traffic.

As a complete aside, have you ever heard a Strad or other top class violin in a domestic setting? They are awful. They can't be beaten for throwing the music across an auditorium, but in a domestic setting they are way too harsh.

Not personally, no, but there is a tv programme where Nicola Benedetti speaks with Aly Bain in his kitchen in Edinburgh and there is a huge difference in the the sound of their violins, she also says that playing the Strad is difficult, she has to fight it at all times, whereas the fiddle Aly uses sounds sweet and easy to play.

The programme is on YouTube, iirc.

[Biffer]

The pipes are great, but they're not an indoor instrument.

[robmatic]

I really like haggis, and to be honest I don't see what the fuss is about regarding what it's made from.

It's not unusual at all to use every single part of an animal, in fact it's wasteful to not do so. Offal is eaten everywhere where meat is eaten, bollocks, brains, feet, eyes, the lot are all eaten across the world.

No biggie.

I love it. And whisky. And the bagpipes.

Yes. Yes. Noooooo.

As someone once said, the very definition of a gentleman is someone who knows how to play the bagpipes but doesn't.

There's a time and a place. When I was young, my mum used to run a bed and breakfast and every year we had a guy stay with us who was a folk musician and played the bagpipes. He'd done film soundtracks apparently. He would go up into the fields behind the house to practise, and it sounded quite pleasant floating down the hills. However, I also used to live just off the Royal Mile for a year and some of the buskers were brutal.

[Paddington Bear]

Haggis is just another type of sausage. Crack that and it all makes sense.

[Tichtheid]

The pipes are great, but they're not an indoor instrument.

Exactly this.

The small pipes are good indoors.


@weegie, I found the part of the programme I was talking about

[Happyhooker]

I love it. And whisky. And the bagpipes.

Yes. Yes. Noooooo.

As someone once said, the very definition of a gentleman is someone who knows how to play the bagpipes but doesn't.

There's a time and a place. When I was young, my mum used to run a bed and breakfast and every year we had a guy stay with us who was a folk musician and played the bagpipes. He'd done film soundtracks apparently. He would go up into the fields behind the house to practise, and it sounded quite pleasant floating down the hills. However, I also used to live just off the Royal Mile for a year and some of the buskers were brutal.

Agreed.
Time: when I'm not there
Place: somewhere far, far away from me

[weegie01]

The pipes are great, but they're not an indoor instrument.

Exactly this.

The small pipes are good indoors.

@weegie, I found the part of the programme I was talking about

Interesting.

One of my Italian uncles was a concert violinist. He lived in Scotland and was also a fiddler. He had different violins for classical music and fiddling. That clip is interesting and good demonstration of the difference.

[Lobby]

The pipes are great, but they're not an indoor instrument.

Exactly this.

The small pipes are good indoors.

@weegie, I found the part of the programme I was talking about

Interesting.

One of my Italian uncles was a concert violinist. He lived in Scotland and was also a fiddler. He had different violins for classical music and fiddling. That clip is interesting and good demonstration of the difference.

Apologies for barging in on your conversation, but SkyArts have been showing a film with Janine Jansen in which she plays 12 of the most famous strads. The film includes interviews with luthiers and violin dealers about how they were made and why each one has such a distinct character, as well as extensive footage of Jansen and Tony Pappano discussing the violins. In the film, she tries out each strad, discusses its history (and who has played it) and picks an appropriate piece to play for a recording with each one. Its really interesting, and worth a watch.

[Jock42]

I really like haggis, and to be honest I don't see what the fuss is about regarding what it's made from.

It's not unusual at all to use every single part of an animal, in fact it's wasteful to not do so. Offal is eaten everywhere where meat is eaten, bollocks, brains, feet, eyes, the lot are all eaten across the world.

No biggie.

I love it. And whisky. And the bagpipes.

Yes. Yes. Noooooo.

As someone once said, the very definition of a gentleman is someone who knows how to play the bagpipes but doesn't.

The pipes are excellent in the correct setting. Never a drill pig but marching behind the Ps&Ds is something else.