6 Nations. But not as we know it

[Kawazaki]

Awful idea when you see the type of rugby SA offers plus the money they won’t bring .

Doesn’t World Rugby want to add a world clubs championship also or some like that?

The 5 Nations will be better, with a duration of 4 weeks with one team resting each weekend.

Well then why do world clubs import South Africans in such huge numbers? I'd love to stay in the Rugby Championship with NZ and Aus. But big money has decided and it looks inevitable that we'll be joining Scotland as the second African team in the 6N.

Because it's your coaching and national mindset about how to play that's at fault, not the raw athletic merits of your players. Get them into coaching set ups that ask them to do more than just run into people or who partner them up with other players who do more than that and rugby that isn't the equivalent of eye cancer can be played. Also bear in mind that most clubs rarely have more than a handful of South Africans, there might be a lot of them sprinkled among the leagues in total, but they're not so sought after that clubs completely overhaul their rosters (Sale being a notable exception).

Plus what the others said about relative cheapness and availability during the season.

I think that's fairly uncharitable and just plain wrong. South Africa are a giant of the sport and some of their players are genuinely some of the best who have ever played the sport. However, they have no place being in the 6 Nations. It's just a terrible idea.

[FalseBayFC]

Well then why do world clubs import South Africans in such huge numbers? I'd love to stay in the Rugby Championship with NZ and Aus. But big money has decided and it looks inevitable that we'll be joining Scotland as the second African team in the 6N.

Because it's your coaching and national mindset about how to play that's at fault, not the raw athletic merits of your players. Get them into coaching set ups that ask them to do more than just run into people or who partner them up with other players who do more than that and rugby that isn't the equivalent of eye cancer can be played. Also bear in mind that most clubs rarely have more than a handful of South Africans, there might be a lot of them sprinkled among the leagues in total, but they're not so sought after that clubs completely overhaul their rosters (Sale being a notable exception).

Plus what the others said about relative cheapness and availability during the season.

I think that's fairly uncharitable and just plain wrong. South Africa are a giant of the sport and some of their players are genuinely some of the best who have ever played the sport. However, they have no place being in the 6 Nations. It's just a terrible idea.

I agree. Our spiritual home is with the SH teams.

In fact I think that Africa has a much bigger growth potential for the sport than Europe. I'd love to see SA take the lead in developing the Africa Cup Nations by including some of the stronger teams in a SA domestic comp. The interest in the sport in soccer-centric communities in SA is growing very fast as with cricket. Having Siya Kolisi, Lukhanyo Am, KG Rabada, Tendai Mtawarira around as positive role models. Thats a boon of social media.

Zimbabwe with some investment could overtake Italy quite quickly. Especially with the new laws on representing a second country. Dave Ewers, Don Armand, Mike Williams, Eli Snyman and heaps of talented youngsters playing in SA and abroad who were born in Zim, have parents or grandparents from the country. A tiny number of schools there produce cricket and rugby stars at a ridiculous rate.

[inactionman]

Because it's your coaching and national mindset about how to play that's at fault, not the raw athletic merits of your players. Get them into coaching set ups that ask them to do more than just run into people or who partner them up with other players who do more than that and rugby that isn't the equivalent of eye cancer can be played. Also bear in mind that most clubs rarely have more than a handful of South Africans, there might be a lot of them sprinkled among the leagues in total, but they're not so sought after that clubs completely overhaul their rosters (Sale being a notable exception).

Plus what the others said about relative cheapness and availability during the season.

I think that's fairly uncharitable and just plain wrong. South Africa are a giant of the sport and some of their players are genuinely some of the best who have ever played the sport. However, they have no place being in the 6 Nations. It's just a terrible idea.

I agree. Our spiritual home is with the SH teams.

In fact I think that Africa has a much bigger growth potential for the sport than Europe. I'd love to see SA take the lead in developing the Africa Cup Nations by including some of the stronger teams in a SA domestic comp. The interest in the sport in soccer-centric communities in SA is growing very fast as with cricket. Having Siya Kolisi, Lukhanyo Am, KG Rabada, Tendai Mtawarira around as positive role models. Thats a boon of social media.

Zimbabwe with some investment could overtake Italy quite quickly. Especially with the new laws on representing a second country. Dave Ewers, Don Armand, Mike Williams, Eli Snyman and heaps of talented youngsters playing in SA and abroad who were born in Zim, have parents or grandparents from the country. A tiny number of schools there produce cricket and rugby stars at a ridiculous rate.

Has Namibia got much rugby pedigree? I recall the almost-deranged crazy-haired Berger at Sarries a few years back was Namibian.

[OomStruisbaai]

Money will dictates this. Springboks trademark value is up there.

[OomStruisbaai]

I think that's fairly uncharitable and just plain wrong. South Africa are a giant of the sport and some of their players are genuinely some of the best who have ever played the sport. However, they have no place being in the 6 Nations. It's just a terrible idea.

I agree. Our spiritual home is with the SH teams.

In fact I think that Africa has a much bigger growth potential for the sport than Europe. I'd love to see SA take the lead in developing the Africa Cup Nations by including some of the stronger teams in a SA domestic comp. The interest in the sport in soccer-centric communities in SA is growing very fast as with cricket. Having Siya Kolisi, Lukhanyo Am, KG Rabada, Tendai Mtawarira around as positive role models. Thats a boon of social media.

Zimbabwe with some investment could overtake Italy quite quickly. Especially with the new laws on representing a second country. Dave Ewers, Don Armand, Mike Williams, Eli Snyman and heaps of talented youngsters playing in SA and abroad who were born in Zim, have parents or grandparents from the country. A tiny number of schools there produce cricket and rugby stars at a ridiculous rate.

Has Namibia got much rugby pedigree? I recall the almost-deranged crazy-haired Berger at Sarries a few years back was Namibian.

Jacques Burger. In my young days we played club warmup matches vs Keetmanshoop. We had to travel 425 kms by car. Distances is their biggest challenge.

[inactionman]

I agree. Our spiritual home is with the SH teams.

In fact I think that Africa has a much bigger growth potential for the sport than Europe. I'd love to see SA take the lead in developing the Africa Cup Nations by including some of the stronger teams in a SA domestic comp. The interest in the sport in soccer-centric communities in SA is growing very fast as with cricket. Having Siya Kolisi, Lukhanyo Am, KG Rabada, Tendai Mtawarira around as positive role models. Thats a boon of social media.

Zimbabwe with some investment could overtake Italy quite quickly. Especially with the new laws on representing a second country. Dave Ewers, Don Armand, Mike Williams, Eli Snyman and heaps of talented youngsters playing in SA and abroad who were born in Zim, have parents or grandparents from the country. A tiny number of schools there produce cricket and rugby stars at a ridiculous rate.

Has Namibia got much rugby pedigree? I recall the almost-deranged crazy-haired Berger at Sarries a few years back was Namibian.

Jacques Burger. In my young days we played club warmup matches vs Keetmanshoop. We had to travel 425 kms by car. Distances is their biggest challenge.

I can appreciate that - a few years back we had a holiday in SA and Namibia, started in Madikwe and flew from Johannesburg to Capetown, then drove up to Windhoek via Lüderitz and a few other stops including the Kalahari. There were two roads from the Orange River north to the Fish River Canyon, and we chose the scenic one - in a saloon car. Keetmanshoop's at the top of all that but most people would have the brains to take the metalled road. Stunning but hard work.

[FalseBayFC]

Namibia drew against Canada in their 2018 RWC pool match. Guys like Scottish cap Byron Mcguigan of Scotland could play for Namibia if he stood down 3 years. There are probably 10 Namibian born players in the SA URC squads and more in the Currie Cups. There will also be a very large number of Saffer kids who qualify for Namibia under the grandfather rule.

Before independence in 1990, South West Africa had a very competitive Currie Cup team. There were large numbers of South African security personnel in country all through the seventies and eighties. Many stayed and then left after independence as did a fair wack of locally born whites.

The big issue with developing rugby in Namibia and Zim is investment. I could see them both sitting comfortably at Georgia or Canada level. Especially if they had a team each in the Currie Cup and had a few old hands return from abroad to provide a bit of backbone.

[OomStruisbaai]

As a kid we use to play rugby in the park and one would do commentary out of a tree. We all got to play as your rugby hero. Jan Ellis was my hero. A South West Africa legend. Use to carry the bal with one hand.

Namibia players will be 90% from Windhoek. Maybe the odd one from outside clubs.

[OomStruisbaai]

Has Namibia got much rugby pedigree? I recall the almost-deranged crazy-haired Berger at Sarries a few years back was Namibian.

Jacques Burger. In my young days we played club warmup matches vs Keetmanshoop. We had to travel 425 kms by car. Distances is their biggest challenge.

I can appreciate that - a few years back we had a holiday in SA and Namibia, started in Madikwe and flew from Johannesburg to Capetown, then drove up to Windhoek via Lüderitz and a few other stops including the Kalahari. There were two roads from the Orange River north to the Fish River Canyon, and we chose the scenic one - in a saloon car. Keetmanshoop's at the top of all that but most people would have the brains to take the metalled road. Stunning but hard work.

I grew up in Alexander Bay. . Fish Rivier Canyon. Vok Boet , now tell me that you didn't enjoy touring where most Saffers haven't. Imagen doing that after an Irish vs Springbok 6 nation test in Cape Town?

[Grandpa]

I'm gonna miss the big All Blacks v Springbok games... they are my highlight each rugby year

[FalseBayFC]

I'm gonna miss the big All Blacks v Springbok games... they are my highlight each rugby year

I am hoping this 6N nonsense blows over. My ideal rugby calendar is a Super 12 like it was. And a Rugby championship.

[Grandpa]

I'm gonna miss the big All Blacks v Springbok games... they are my highlight each rugby year

I am hoping this 6N nonsense blows over. My ideal rugby calendar is a Super 12 like it was. And a Rugby championship.

Amen .. sadly that will never happen again.. and I don't think SA joining the Six Nations will blow over .. it will happen sooner or later.

[_Os_]

Namibia drew against Canada in their 2018 RWC pool match.

The RWC was in 2019, but I'll forgive that one. You don't follow Nam rugby at all though, because there was no draw, the match was called off and never played.

Nam would've had a very strong chance of winning against that Canada team if it had been played, but it wasn't.

The big issue with developing rugby in Namibia and Zim is investment. I could see them both sitting comfortably at Georgia or Canada level. Especially if they had a team each in the Currie Cup and had a few old hands return from abroad to provide a bit of backbone.

It's now totally obvious that Zim (as in the entire country) has been cratered for at least a generation. It's not going to come back in my lifetime. They could have a strong rugby team, but they could be a whole lot of things, yet they aren't. In rugby Nam have always had the wood on them head to head anyway.

Nam have been doing quite well but are approaching their maximum potential. Uruguay have a similar sized population and number of clubs and are in a similar situation. Throwing money at something doesn't give that much returns if there's not much to throw money at.

In fact I think that Africa has a much bigger growth potential for the sport than Europe. I'd love to see SA take the lead in developing the Africa Cup Nations by including some of the stronger teams in a SA domestic comp. The interest in the sport in soccer-centric communities in SA is growing very fast as with cricket. Having Siya Kolisi, Lukhanyo Am, KG Rabada, Tendai Mtawarira around as positive role models. Thats a boon of social media.

Zimbabwe with some investment could overtake Italy quite quickly. Especially with the new laws on representing a second country. Dave Ewers, Don Armand, Mike Williams, Eli Snyman and heaps of talented youngsters playing in SA and abroad who were born in Zim, have parents or grandparents from the country. A tiny number of schools there produce cricket and rugby stars at a ridiculous rate.

Kenya and Uganda are probably the best picks if you were taking a longterm view. They're already playing rugby and that part of the continent is going to have increasing population density as the century progresses (with all the economic benefit that brings). That's decades away though and in a series of matches I wouldn't back them against a minnow like Nam.

Zimbabwe is a completely mad country, if you built a Sables team taking full advantage of the eligibility rules and picking the best players (as you propose). As soon as they reached any prominence/success, they would be cut down by their government for being too white. That's essentially what happened to them after they got close to qualifying for the 2015 RWC (went out in the repechage against Russia in Siberia).

So there's no African option for the Boks in the short and medium term. I would support something like the Boks playing an annual midweek match against the strongest looking team among them (Nam most years), it would lose money though and its worth would purely be in building Bok squad depth. The mismatch would be so great it would do little for whichever team plays the Boks.

It's a professional sport. This is about making money.

[Hugo]

Haven't SA already committed to the RC till 2030?

Only the next 3 years, apparently.

I genuinely think that would be it for me and rugby, at least pro rugby. As a Scotland supporter what's the point in being in a tournament we realistically will never win. I'm not that interested in pro club rugby, not that interested in Autumn internationals or summer tours, and not really that interested in the World Cup, but the 6N is, and always has been, a huge part of my life. Fuck them all.

Good riddance, we don't need negative nancies and fair weather fans in our new comp.

We don't need a "new comp" fullstop.

[_Os_]

We don't need a "new comp" fullstop.

Whatever happens with the Boks, I doubt that's true. Part of the 6N ownership rights has been sold to a private equity partner, so part of your "we" is naked capitalism. They're going to want a return on their investment.

So if the Boks aren't included. They're probably looking at something life the F1 model, where games that aren't selling get taken on the road to neutral venues (probably in North America). Basically Italy continue to be the punching bag, but for the enjoyment of North Americans who want to watch the other teams play. Or Italy just loses its home games and they're played in the 5N countries to a larger audience.

The other option would be something like cutting Italy and adding the USA. I can't recall the details but there was something floating around about Silver Lake (NZ's equity partner) wanting the All Blacks to play in North America and Europe more, so maybe that's an option too.

It's a business, and one of the core elements of capitalism is growth. If they're serious about adding the Boks, that means if adding the Boks doesn't happen then they're going to try something else.

[Kawazaki]

We don't need a "new comp" fullstop.

Whatever happens with the Boks, I doubt that's true. Part of the 6N ownership rights has been sold to a private equity partner, so part of your "we" is naked capitalism. They're going to want a return on their investment.

So if the Boks aren't included. They're probably looking at something life the F1 model, where games that aren't selling get taken on the road to neutral venues (probably in North America). Basically Italy continue to be the punching bag, but for the enjoyment of North Americans who want to watch the other teams play. Or Italy just loses its home games and they're played in the 5N countries to a larger audience.

The other option would be something like cutting Italy and adding the USA. I can't recall the details but there was something floating around about Silver Lake (NZ's equity partner) wanting the All Blacks to play in North America and Europe more, so maybe that's an option too.

It's a business, and one of the core elements of capitalism is growth. If they're serious about adding the Boks, that means if adding the Boks doesn't happen then they're going to try something else.

CVC own 14% of the 6Ns championship.

They get 14% of any income the 6Ns tournament makes. 14% is about a 1/7th share. That doesn't buy executive control.

[_Os_]

We don't need a "new comp" fullstop.

Whatever happens with the Boks, I doubt that's true. Part of the 6N ownership rights has been sold to a private equity partner, so part of your "we" is naked capitalism. They're going to want a return on their investment.

So if the Boks aren't included. They're probably looking at something life the F1 model, where games that aren't selling get taken on the road to neutral venues (probably in North America). Basically Italy continue to be the punching bag, but for the enjoyment of North Americans who want to watch the other teams play. Or Italy just loses its home games and they're played in the 5N countries to a larger audience.

The other option would be something like cutting Italy and adding the USA. I can't recall the details but there was something floating around about Silver Lake (NZ's equity partner) wanting the All Blacks to play in North America and Europe more, so maybe that's an option too.

It's a business, and one of the core elements of capitalism is growth. If they're serious about adding the Boks, that means if adding the Boks doesn't happen then they're going to try something else.

CVC own 14% of the 6Ns championship.

They get 14% of any income the 6Ns tournament makes. 14% is about a 1/7th share. That doesn't buy executive control.

I understand that, but they're at the table and part of the "we". How do explain where all this is coming from and why now?

The 6/7s part of the "we", has also now lost a share of their income in exchange for a one time payout from the sale. So there's an incentive for them to listen to what the 14% can come up with, because if the pie grows then in real terms they haven't lost anything. I cannot see how that 14% doesn't keep pushing for revenue growth, because why else are they there?

But you knew all this anyway.

[Guy Smiley]

So, still nothing more than one article reporting this and various other outlets repeating the same line?

Situation normal then. Nothing to report.

[OomStruisbaai]

So, still nothing more than one article reporting this and various other outlets repeating the same line?

Situation normal then. Nothing to report.

No reports in Australia?

[Biffer]

So the only article that’s being used as source is from the Daily fucking Mail.

And everyone seems to be forgetting that Italy owns an equal share of the 6 Nations. It would take hundreds of millions to buy them out of that.

[Kawazaki]

Whatever happens with the Boks, I doubt that's true. Part of the 6N ownership rights has been sold to a private equity partner, so part of your "we" is naked capitalism. They're going to want a return on their investment.

So if the Boks aren't included. They're probably looking at something life the F1 model, where games that aren't selling get taken on the road to neutral venues (probably in North America). Basically Italy continue to be the punching bag, but for the enjoyment of North Americans who want to watch the other teams play. Or Italy just loses its home games and they're played in the 5N countries to a larger audience.

The other option would be something like cutting Italy and adding the USA. I can't recall the details but there was something floating around about Silver Lake (NZ's equity partner) wanting the All Blacks to play in North America and Europe more, so maybe that's an option too.

It's a business, and one of the core elements of capitalism is growth. If they're serious about adding the Boks, that means if adding the Boks doesn't happen then they're going to try something else.

CVC own 14% of the 6Ns championship.

They get 14% of any income the 6Ns tournament makes. 14% is about a 1/7th share. That doesn't buy executive control.

I understand that, but they're at the table and part of the "we". How do explain where all this is coming from and why now?

The 6/7s part of the "we", has also now lost a share of their income in exchange for a one time payout from the sale. So there's an incentive for them to listen to what the 14% can come up with, because if the pie grows then in real terms they haven't lost anything. I cannot see how that 14% doesn't keep pushing for revenue growth, because why else are they there?

But you knew all this anyway.

The tournament is over 100 years old. Their investment buys 14% off the income from that. That is why they are there.

[assfly]

What would this mean for Lions tours to SA?

[Tichtheid]

So the only article that’s being used as source is from the Daily fucking Mail.

And everyone seems to be forgetting that Italy owns an equal share of the 6 Nations. It would take hundreds of millions to buy them out of that.

I made this point elsewhere, they can't just be dumped out without huge recompense, and they would need to agree to it, or be voted out - which would be a really shit look for the other 6N unions.

[Tichtheid]

What would this mean for Lions tours to SA?

As long as the tours make money they will go ahead

[Kawazaki]

What would this mean for Lions tours to SA?

After the Rassie rant I reckon the Lions should just sack off South Africa in 11 years. Go to Argentina or play the Anzacs team. Or both.

[Begbie]

What would this mean for Lions tours to SA?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... ix-nations

[Biffer]

No one would really care about a Lions tour to South Africa if they were in the six nations. They’re playing all four teams every year, so there’d be nothing special about it.

[Paddington Bear]

We don't need a "new comp" fullstop.

Whatever happens with the Boks, I doubt that's true. Part of the 6N ownership rights has been sold to a private equity partner, so part of your "we" is naked capitalism. They're going to want a return on their investment.

So if the Boks aren't included. They're probably looking at something life the F1 model, where games that aren't selling get taken on the road to neutral venues (probably in North America). Basically Italy continue to be the punching bag, but for the enjoyment of North Americans who want to watch the other teams play. Or Italy just loses its home games and they're played in the 5N countries to a larger audience.

The other option would be something like cutting Italy and adding the USA. I can't recall the details but there was something floating around about Silver Lake (NZ's equity partner) wanting the All Blacks to play in North America and Europe more, so maybe that's an option too.

It's a business, and one of the core elements of capitalism is growth. If they're serious about adding the Boks, that means if adding the Boks doesn't happen then they're going to try something else.

CVC own 14% of the 6Ns championship.

They get 14% of any income the 6Ns tournament makes. 14% is about a 1/7th share. That doesn't buy executive control.

I reckon that they have much more influence than their vote share technically gives them. For a start they are commercially savvy in a way the unions are not. From there they'll also intimidate a lot of officials - they can threaten to walk in a way a union simply couldn't. Of course there's always the backhander as well...

[assfly]

What would this mean for Lions tours to SA?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... ix-nations

Ugh. The more I read about this, the worse an idea it becomes.

[not_english]

Any proposal that takes Italy out of the 6 Nations seems worth considering to me. At the moment, one third of the matches are guaranteed total rubbish.

[sockwithaticket]

Any proposal that takes Italy out of the 6 Nations seems worth considering to me. At the moment, one third of the matches are guaranteed total rubbish.

That's pretty broad.

A proposal to change the 6N should - improve on the current quality of the on and off pitch tournament while not sacrificing its identity as a European competition.

I actually think removing bonus points would help. Teams used to experiment more against Italy, but now they often put out strong lineups to ensure they secure the 4 tries

[Chilli]

From what I read they seem to be warming to us joining them.

[Kawazaki]

Whatever happens with the Boks, I doubt that's true. Part of the 6N ownership rights has been sold to a private equity partner, so part of your "we" is naked capitalism. They're going to want a return on their investment.

So if the Boks aren't included. They're probably looking at something life the F1 model, where games that aren't selling get taken on the road to neutral venues (probably in North America). Basically Italy continue to be the punching bag, but for the enjoyment of North Americans who want to watch the other teams play. Or Italy just loses its home games and they're played in the 5N countries to a larger audience.

The other option would be something like cutting Italy and adding the USA. I can't recall the details but there was something floating around about Silver Lake (NZ's equity partner) wanting the All Blacks to play in North America and Europe more, so maybe that's an option too.

It's a business, and one of the core elements of capitalism is growth. If they're serious about adding the Boks, that means if adding the Boks doesn't happen then they're going to try something else.

CVC own 14% of the 6Ns championship.

They get 14% of any income the 6Ns tournament makes. 14% is about a 1/7th share. That doesn't buy executive control.

I reckon that they have much more influence than their vote share technically gives them. For a start they are commercially savvy in a way the unions are not. From there they'll also intimidate a lot of officials - they can threaten to walk in a way a union simply couldn't. Of course there's always the backhander as well...

Possibly, but we also no how impossibly unreasonable and inflexible blazers can be.

[Begbie]

[Slick]

If it was a fishing exercise from the 6N they have had their answer.

i suspect it was just a bullshit bit of journalism though

[Biffer]

If it was a fishing exercise from the 6N they have had their answer.

i suspect it was just a bullshit bit of journalism though

It's a fishing exercise from SA to put pressure on NZ and Aus, so they retain more of their TV money.

[Brazil]

Well this is just going swimmingly.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... ix-nations

[Guy Smiley]

If it was a fishing exercise from the 6N they have had their answer.

i suspect it was just a bullshit bit of journalism though

It's a fishing exercise from SA to put pressure on NZ and Aus, so they retain more of their TV money.

Eh?

SANZAAR has a revenue sharing arrangement that means no union is contributing or missing out in more than its share. The partners all shared costs of running Super Rugby and make their own arrangements with their domestic broadcast partners.

Saffa tv money is a well worn myth.

[Biffer]

Well this is just going swimmingly.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... ix-nations

This is the thing for South Africa. You'd need to compensate Italy to the order of 4-500 million euros and you wouldn't get any Lions tours.

So they'd achieve the general SH thing of manage to fuck both the competition they're entering, and themselves at the same time. The shameless incompetence of these fuckers is something to behold.

[Guy Smiley]

Well this is just going swimmingly.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... ix-nations

This is the thing for South Africa. You'd need to compensate Italy to the order of 4-500 million euros and you wouldn't get any Lions tours.

So they'd achieve the general SH thing of manage to fuck both the competition they're entering, and themselves at the same time. The shameless incompetence of these fuckers is something to behold.

Well, the RWC turned out alright.