NPR

inactionman wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:40 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:23 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:42 am Not really being following this but heard someone mention the lad had been playing some sort of asphyxiation "game" on social media and had strangled himself with shoelaces.

When we were kids, the most dangerous thing we played was British bulldog.

There was no game; he hung himself, plain & simple; his mother is just lying about it; probably in preparation for another attention seeking lawsuit

I'd suggest being a bit careful with statements like that.

Although it is a pretty rotten situation start to finish.

It's rotten anyway but for a 12 year old.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:58 pm

Biffer wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:15 pm Depends whether you take duty of care as an actual moral responsibility or just a legal thing you've got to do. Medical professionals broadly will do the former, they do the right thing.

Pffft. You are far more an idealist than I then. Economics and arse covering long since overtook patients' best interests since it's not the medics who make the decisions.

As a clinician who deals with ventilation locally and nationally I can assure you, your post regarding this issue is way off the mark.
If you had professionally had to deal with the withdrawal of such treatments you would not be so ill/misinformed.

C69 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:12 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:58 pm

Biffer wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:15 pm Depends whether you take duty of care as an actual moral responsibility or just a legal thing you've got to do. Medical professionals broadly will do the former, they do the right thing.

Pffft. You are far more an idealist than I then. Economics and arse covering long since overtook patients' best interests since it's not the medics who make the decisions.

As a clinician who deals with ventilation locally and nationally I can assure you, your post regarding this issue is way off the mark.
If you had professionally had to deal with the withdrawal of such treatments you would not be so ill/misinformed.

C69 knows! My experience both personally and professionally is the same. Torquemada is talking shite.

I wonder how much money this whole futile appeal process has costed.
The clinicians have done brain stem testing and multiple scans, this is about a zealots view of the sanctity of life not existance.
Bonkers situation

I can understand the family pushing the right to life agenda, but for sure this has cost a fortune with seemingly no chance of a positive outcome, and to talk of moving him to a hospice bed when there's such a shortage, it's again so expensive and so many people desperately need the service, it's an uncomfortable look, especially when they then turn around and ask for a right to privacy and respect.

This is more about her than it is the kid, she is a desperate attention seeker, guarantee she will be looking to sue for compo.

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:45 am I can understand the family pushing the right to life agenda, but for sure this has cost a fortune with seemingly no chance of a positive outcome, and to talk of moving him to a hospice bed when there's such a shortage, it's again so expensive and so many people desperately need the service, it's an uncomfortable look, especially when they then turn around and ask for a right to privacy and respect.

There was absolutely no chance that he could be moved to a hospice, or indeed, to another country; he is only being kept 'alive' by massive medical interventions, and the likelihood is that any attempt to move him to another hospital or hospice would result in his death in transit. This was all about prolonging the legal cases, and keeping the mother in the public eye for a few more days.

If the family want to be with him when he dies, they can do so in the hospital where he is currently being cared for.

ASMO wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:04 am This is more about her than it is the kid, she is a desperate attention seeker, guarantee she will be looking to sue for compo.

The fundamentalist groups backing her won’t help her with that as it doesn’t advance their agenda.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... dApp_Other

RIP

Uncle fester wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:05 pm https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... dApp_Other

RIP

Indeed but head has been legally dead for a while.
Certainly after his brainstem testing

Sure but now he can actually rest in peace.

Uncle fester wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:36 pm Sure but now he can actually rest in peace.

Unfortunately there will be no peace for the rest of us from the harridan of a mother.

I hope I'm wrong but is it possible the lady doth protest too much? Is it possible that she's had something to do with the boys death - more indirectly that directly? The poor sod couldn't take any more from her so topped himself and what we've seen from her is a reaction to the part she knows she had in his action?

Even for you, that's a bit

Tbh there is a lot worse than that out there about his mother and family.
I suspect the mainstream press are wating to print the glamour/escort pics etc.

A friend told me about a site called kiwi farm with info on her
Evil shit on there tbh and the owners seem unhinged and a bit sociopathic uber libertarian nutters.
I won't be looking there again.

Uncle fester wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:02 pm Even for you, that's a bit

To be fair, it was hinted at earlier in the thread and is probably closer to the truth than her version.

Blackmac wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:28 pm

Uncle fester wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:02 pm Even for you, that's a bit

To be fair, it was hinted at earlier in the thread and is probably closer to the truth than her version.

Which one of her versions ?

I'd like to be convinced that he had no part, even inadvertently, in her childs death/suicide; but when you're faced with a blizzard of lies from the person who discovered the body, & who has a track record of using her son to get attention, & publicity; it's not as easy as it should be.

She's grifted tens of thousands in donations, supposedly for legal help; but then it comes out in Court, that all the legal help was pro-bono.

Question.

Does anyone know if there'll be an inquest ?, or will the fact that he's died under the care of a Doctor mean that there's just a post, & the death certificate will be signed without any investigation, & airing of the facts ?

fishfoodie wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:16 pm Question.

Does anyone know if there'll be an inquest ?, or will the fact that he's died under the care of a Doctor mean that there's just a post, & the death certificate will be signed without any investigation, & airing of the facts ?

Police investigation will be ongoing into how he came about his injuries, but treading carefully due to the sensitive nature. Death certificate just lists causes of death not how they happened.

Blackmac wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:10 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:16 pm Question.

Does anyone know if there'll be an inquest ?, or will the fact that he's died under the care of a Doctor mean that there's just a post, & the death certificate will be signed without any investigation, & airing of the facts ?

Police investigation will be ongoing into how he came about his injuries, but treading carefully due to the sensitive nature. Death certificate just lists causes of death not how they happened.

I'd figured it would be something like that.

Any sympathy this vile chav has gotten will disappear rapidly once there's a full accounting of the facts.

I think an unexpected death always involves a post mortem, doesn't it?

Biffer wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:25 pm I think an unexpected death always involves a post mortem, doesn't it?

A Post will just tell us what we already know.It's an inquest that will force individuals to state under oath the circumstances that led to the death.

fishfoodie wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:56 pm

Biffer wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:25 pm I think an unexpected death always involves a post mortem, doesn't it?

A Post will just tell us what we already know.It's an inquest that will force individuals to state under oath the circumstances that led to the death.

Yeah but it is not sequential? PM leads to unexplained leads to inquest? Not certain, fortunately never had to get to grips with anything like that

Biffer wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:06 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:56 pm

Biffer wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:25 pm I think an unexpected death always involves a post mortem, doesn't it?

A Post will just tell us what we already know.It's an inquest that will force individuals to state under oath the circumstances that led to the death.

Yeah but it is not sequential? PM leads to unexplained leads to inquest? Not certain, fortunately never had to get to grips with anything like that

Well the cause of death will be the hanging, or the cold medical diagnosis of what happens when the human brain is starved of oxygen for 30+ minutes; but the important questions are; why did this 12 year old hang themselves, or will his mother continue to bullshit us all with her versions of what happened

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:42 am

Fuck me!!!
Using a dead little boy as a photo opportunity

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:42 am

That is a horrendous picture, 2 people basically smiling over the body of a dead kid. Fucking shameful, the MP should have known better.

ASMO wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:57 am

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:42 am

That is a horrendous picture, 2 people basically smiling over the body of a dead kid. Fucking shameful, the MP should have known better.

That is one of the most disgusting and vomit inducing photographs I have ever seen. To use a dead teenager's body as a photo opportunity is just horrible. This twat of a MP, I refuse to use her name, should be flogged at the stocks for this. Vile

Good piece in the Guardian by a palliative care doctor on this case

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -treatment

"... brain death is not the same as a coma, persistent vegetative state or locked-in syndrome. Occasionally, with these conditions, a seemingly miraculously recovery can occur. But brain death means a permanent, irreversible and complete loss of brain function, including the lower part of the brain that connects to the spinal cord. This part, the brain stem, controls most of the body’s automatic functions that are essential for life, such as breathing, heartbeat, blood pressure and swallowing. If a person’s brain stem has died – for instance, through prolonged lack of oxygen – their body can only be kept alive with artificial life support; breathing only occurs because mechanical ventilators, invented in the 1950s, forcibly push air in and out of the lungs.

Mechanical ventilation enables time for the staggeringly altruistic gift of organ donation. Yet it also generates the immensely painful and bewildering experience for some families of seeing their loved one apparently asleep – chest rhythmically rising and falling – only to be told that they have died. We strive as doctors to be as clear, respectful and compassionate as we possibly can in our communication with relatives. But there is no avoiding the devastating fact that these patients will never regain consciousness or start breathing on their own again."

ASMO wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:57 am

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:42 am

That is a horrendous picture, 2 people basically smiling over the body of a dead kid. Fucking shameful, the MP should have known better.

Although I agree that the photo is totally inappropriate, it was taken at the beginning of June, before all of the legal cases had got going. As the MP was there at the family's request, it was likely that she thought there was still hope he would recover, and she wouldn't have known how terrible his condition was, as this wouldn't have been public knowledge at the time.

Still desperately ill-advised, and Christ knows why she thought the flag waving was appropriate.

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:42 am

Tbf, judging by the pic and the flag, I suspect that MP visited during the jubilee celebrations which was the first weekend of June - 10 weeks ago. Well before this boy was the big public story.

Anyone any sympathy with the argument that they should have been allowed to either take him to a hospice to die or to seek alternative treatment elsewhere? On the basis that if he was literally brain dead then he would be totally unaware of what was happening.

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:42 am

Not embarrassed to say that just made me blub. He looks a little bit like my boy. FFS.

GogLais wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:09 am Anyone any sympathy with the argument that they should have been allowed to either take him to a hospice to die or to seek alternative treatment elsewhere? On the basis that if he was literally brain dead then he would be totally unaware of what was happening.

Opens a huge can of worms. Once you facilitate it for one you will have everyone making similar requests. The cost and resources would be huge.

GogLais wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:09 am Anyone any sympathy with the argument that they should have been allowed to either take him to a hospice to die or to seek alternative treatment elsewhere? On the basis that if he was literally brain dead then he would be totally unaware of what was happening.

I’ve definitely got sympathy with the idea of it. But understand the precedent it will set.

I’m slightly confused by the argument that it’s too risky. Risk of …. um …. death. I’d have thought that would not matter too much, given … well you know.

Biffer wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:06 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:56 pm

Biffer wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:25 pm I think an unexpected death always involves a post mortem, doesn't it?

A Post will just tell us what we already know.It's an inquest that will force individuals to state under oath the circumstances that led to the death.

Yeah but it is not sequential? PM leads to unexplained leads to inquest? Not certain, fortunately never had to get to grips with anything like that

The PM would suggest the cause of death was asphyxiation by ligature or similar depending on the exact circumstance. It's the circumstances that are unexplained not the cause.
In Scotland the police would investigate the circumstances and background and report to COPFS. Not entirely sure how the inquest system works in England.

Ymx wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:38 pm

GogLais wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:09 am Anyone any sympathy with the argument that they should have been allowed to either take him to a hospice to die or to seek alternative treatment elsewhere? On the basis that if he was literally brain dead then he would be totally unaware of what was happening.

I’ve definitely got sympathy with the idea of it. But understand the precedent it will set.

I’m slightly confused by the argument that it’s too risky. Risk of …. um …. death. I’d have thought that would not matter too much, given … well you know.

The Court has to decide what's in the child's interests. At that stage, when he is functionally dead, its not about the risk of death, but rather what actions should be taken that are clearly in his interests. The Courts had already decided that the only actions at this stage that could be in his interest was removing the invasive treatments and then to let him die. Removing him to a hospice would involve considerably unnecessary interventions, first to remove the current machinery keeping his body working, then to replace it with other machines and medications to facilitate a move by ambulance to a hospice or another hospital, and then similarly to remove all of that and replace it with other machinery and medications at the new facility, none of which would have any positive impact on the child's condition or chance of recovery. Quite apart from the fact that he would probably die in transit because of the massive disruption to his treatment to carry out the move, as none of those actions could have any practical benefit, it can't possibly be in his interests to subject his body to all of that disruption simply to assuage his family and their lawyers. Remember, the Court's role is not to act for the family or the doctors, but only to decide what is in the child's interests.

The most dignified and peaceful thing to do was not to move him, but to remove the machines keeping his body alive in the hospital and let him die peacefully there, which is what happened eventually.

I’m kind of thinking that he was brain stem dead, there was no “his best interests”, he was no more than an oxygenated piece of meat.

So yes, I guess it would have been nice for his family to settle his final resting place.

But it would set a precedent, and inconsistencies with the past cases.

Ymx wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:22 pm I’m kind of thinking that he was brain stem dead, there was no “his best interests”, he was no more than an oxygenated piece of meat.

So yes, I guess it would have been nice for his family to settle his final resting place.

But it would set a precedent, and inconsistencies with the past cases.

Not particularly.

However, scans showed that his brain stem no longer had blood flowing through it. It was visibly necrotic. Swelling had even pushed it out of the skull and into the spinal cord, a process known as coning.

The body was falling to pieces. It was time to end it.

Oh gawd, that’s horrific !