NPR

Slick wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:14 pm

Jim Lahey wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:54 pm

Slick wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:46 pm

And we would be putting a border between us and 60% of our current trade with no other trade deals in place

Yeah would be a painful process. Would require a strong stomach from the Scots after the shitshows of Brexit, Covid and 2022, to go for another shit show.

Would work out after 4 or 5 years if they can get EU membership. What's the expected lead time to join the EU?

The catastrophe that would have unfolded ifScotland had gone it alone in 2014 with an English Brexit, Covid and energy crisis (rising rates etc) is fairly unimaginable. Not that we shouldn’t do it for what might happen in the future, but it should give some major pause for thought until we have the first clue about how we are going to set up a post independence country, which we simply don’t have.

A huge amount of the independence narrative hinges on the EU but there isn’t even any clarity on fairly simple questions on that. Only last month we had a back and forth on joining the Euro which led most commentators to observe that the SNP either didn’t understand the EU or were choosing not to - it’s all just so dishonest

better the devil you know or a different one? I do feel Scotland want a European style social democracy and the Tories are just fucking shitbags who will just descend to any level and Westminster and the London press are beyond saving. The request on the SNP to have a serious back and forth considering the level of the Westminster idiots is unfair. The whole of the UK government and their media pals are fundamentally dishonest and represent pretty much the very worst of UK society.

Slick wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:14 pm

Jim Lahey wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:54 pm

Slick wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:46 pm

And we would be putting a border between us and 60% of our current trade with no other trade deals in place

Yeah would be a painful process. Would require a strong stomach from the Scots after the shitshows of Brexit, Covid and 2022, to go for another shit show.

Would work out after 4 or 5 years if they can get EU membership. What's the expected lead time to join the EU?

The catastrophe that would have unfolded ifScotland had gone it alone in 2014 with an English Brexit, Covid and energy crisis (rising rates etc) is fairly unimaginable. Not that we shouldn’t do it for what might happen in the future, but it should give some major pause for thought until we have the first clue about how we are going to set up a post independence country, which we simply don’t have.

A huge amount of the independence narrative hinges on the EU but there isn’t even any clarity on fairly simple questions on that. Only last month we had a back and forth on joining the Euro which led most commentators to observe that the SNP either didn’t understand the EU or were choosing not to - it’s all just so dishonest

The timing on that would have been interesting. Scotland wouldn’t have been independent by the time of the Brexit referendum, so what view would the EU have taken of a Scotland that wanted to be in the EU alongside an RUK that didn’t, it’s very possible they would’ve found a way to roll over the UK membership to Scotland, to stick two fingers up to the UK.

As Pete says, it’s a question of whether the devil you know is better. Many, many people are now saying it’s not.

Late to this one and only read the title.
Seems fair.

Biffer wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:25 pm

Slick wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:14 pm

Jim Lahey wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:54 pm

Yeah would be a painful process. Would require a strong stomach from the Scots after the shitshows of Brexit, Covid and 2022, to go for another shit show.

Would work out after 4 or 5 years if they can get EU membership. What's the expected lead time to join the EU?

The catastrophe that would have unfolded ifScotland had gone it alone in 2014 with an English Brexit, Covid and energy crisis (rising rates etc) is fairly unimaginable. Not that we shouldn’t do it for what might happen in the future, but it should give some major pause for thought until we have the first clue about how we are going to set up a post independence country, which we simply don’t have.

A huge amount of the independence narrative hinges on the EU but there isn’t even any clarity on fairly simple questions on that. Only last month we had a back and forth on joining the Euro which led most commentators to observe that the SNP either didn’t understand the EU or were choosing not to - it’s all just so dishonest

The timing on that would have been interesting. Scotland wouldn’t have been independent by the time of the Brexit referendum, so what view would the EU have taken of a Scotland that wanted to be in the EU alongside an RUK that didn’t, it’s very possible they would’ve found a way to roll over the UK membership to Scotland, to stick two fingers up to the UK.

As Pete says, it’s a question of whether the devil you know is better. Many, many people are now saying it’s not.

Think it is possible to wildly overstate the extent to which the people *actually running the EU* would/will seek to exacerbate the political crisis in Britain for any number of reasons. Wouldn’t hold out hope for much more than sassy tweets from Verhofstadt et al

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:36 pm

Biffer wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:25 pm

Slick wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:14 pm

The catastrophe that would have unfolded ifScotland had gone it alone in 2014 with an English Brexit, Covid and energy crisis (rising rates etc) is fairly unimaginable. Not that we shouldn’t do it for what might happen in the future, but it should give some major pause for thought until we have the first clue about how we are going to set up a post independence country, which we simply don’t have.

A huge amount of the independence narrative hinges on the EU but there isn’t even any clarity on fairly simple questions on that. Only last month we had a back and forth on joining the Euro which led most commentators to observe that the SNP either didn’t understand the EU or were choosing not to - it’s all just so dishonest

The timing on that would have been interesting. Scotland wouldn’t have been independent by the time of the Brexit referendum, so what view would the EU have taken of a Scotland that wanted to be in the EU alongside an RUK that didn’t, it’s very possible they would’ve found a way to roll over the UK membership to Scotland, to stick two fingers up to the UK.

As Pete says, it’s a question of whether the devil you know is better. Many, many people are now saying it’s not.

Think it is possible to wildly overstate the extent to which the people *actually running the EU* would/will seek to exacerbate the political crisis in Britain for any number of reasons. Wouldn’t hold out hope for much more than sassy tweets from Verhofstadt et al

Well, there’s also the prospect of demonstrating the benefit of the ‘European project’ that they talk about. Being able to demonstrate to anyone else who thinks about leaving that an area that did leave chose to come back as soon as possible is a demonstration of the worth of being in the EU, particularly if you can then hold it up against the rest of a UK which has slow growth, declining living standards etc while you’re helping Scotland improve all those things inside the EU. That’d be how they may see it in more pragmatic political terms.

Biffer wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:50 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:36 pm

Biffer wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:25 pm

The timing on that would have been interesting. Scotland wouldn’t have been independent by the time of the Brexit referendum, so what view would the EU have taken of a Scotland that wanted to be in the EU alongside an RUK that didn’t, it’s very possible they would’ve found a way to roll over the UK membership to Scotland, to stick two fingers up to the UK.

As Pete says, it’s a question of whether the devil you know is better. Many, many people are now saying it’s not.

Think it is possible to wildly overstate the extent to which the people *actually running the EU* would/will seek to exacerbate the political crisis in Britain for any number of reasons. Wouldn’t hold out hope for much more than sassy tweets from Verhofstadt et al

Well, there’s also the prospect of demonstrating the benefit of the ‘European project’ that they talk about. Being able to demonstrate to anyone else who thinks about leaving that an area that did leave chose to come back as soon as possible is a demonstration of the worth of being in the EU, particularly if you can then hold it up against the rest of a UK which has slow growth, declining living standards etc while you’re helping Scotland improve all those things inside the EU. That’d be how they may see it in more pragmatic political terms.

This seems a little hypothetical when compared to Macron’s pretty serious attempts to create a stable relationship with the British government and the damage it may do to Britain’s defence role with the Baltics etc. before we get to, say, the implications within Spain of granting separatist nations favours and routes into the EU.

The EU has *already* made the point about the damage caused by leaving and you see that in the changed rhetoric from Eurosceptics within the bloc. Scottish independence is just a headache for them

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:36 pm

Biffer wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:25 pm

Slick wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:14 pm

The catastrophe that would have unfolded ifScotland had gone it alone in 2014 with an English Brexit, Covid and energy crisis (rising rates etc) is fairly unimaginable. Not that we shouldn’t do it for what might happen in the future, but it should give some major pause for thought until we have the first clue about how we are going to set up a post independence country, which we simply don’t have.

A huge amount of the independence narrative hinges on the EU but there isn’t even any clarity on fairly simple questions on that. Only last month we had a back and forth on joining the Euro which led most commentators to observe that the SNP either didn’t understand the EU or were choosing not to - it’s all just so dishonest

The timing on that would have been interesting. Scotland wouldn’t have been independent by the time of the Brexit referendum, so what view would the EU have taken of a Scotland that wanted to be in the EU alongside an RUK that didn’t, it’s very possible they would’ve found a way to roll over the UK membership to Scotland, to stick two fingers up to the UK.

As Pete says, it’s a question of whether the devil you know is better. Many, many people are now saying it’s not.

Think it is possible to wildly overstate the extent to which the people *actually running the EU* would/will seek to exacerbate the political crisis in Britain for any number of reasons. Wouldn’t hold out hope for much more than sassy tweets from Verhofstadt et al

I agree that the EU are not likely to say much before Scotland becomes independent but if that happens the discussion at that point are between Scotland and the EU and the EU will be pragmatic. The UK if it is still governed by the populist party will always try to exacerbate things because it is politically beneficial as it excites their supporters (to the detriment of the union). I should state that I don't want Scotland to become independent from the UK but the stench from Westminster is undeniable and it needs serious reform.

petej wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:01 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:36 pm

Biffer wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:25 pm

The timing on that would have been interesting. Scotland wouldn’t have been independent by the time of the Brexit referendum, so what view would the EU have taken of a Scotland that wanted to be in the EU alongside an RUK that didn’t, it’s very possible they would’ve found a way to roll over the UK membership to Scotland, to stick two fingers up to the UK.

As Pete says, it’s a question of whether the devil you know is better. Many, many people are now saying it’s not.

Think it is possible to wildly overstate the extent to which the people *actually running the EU* would/will seek to exacerbate the political crisis in Britain for any number of reasons. Wouldn’t hold out hope for much more than sassy tweets from Verhofstadt et al

I agree that the EU are not likely to say much before Scotland becomes independent but if that happens the discussion at that point are between Scotland and the EU and the EU will be pragmatic. The UK if it is still governed by the populist party will always try to exacerbate things because it is politically beneficial as it excites their supporters (to the detriment of the union). I should state that I don't want Scotland to become independent from the UK but the stench from Westminster is undeniable and it needs serious reform.

Agreed they’ll be pragmatic but they’ll approach it as a headache not an opportunity and will tread pretty carefully. It is possible to wildly overstate the extent Britain and its internal politics is in the minds of the people running the EU, that runs in both directions

Ymx wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:12 pm Are there any posters with pro-union takes on it?

Everyone here seems to be for independence.

Personally, I’ve not actually met a Scottish person who calls themselves British. Only ever some English people who call themselves British.

Although I expect the Indy majority to stay was not about how they identify, but instead for simple economics.

Do Scots believe the economics still stack up post leave?

This is quite an interesting one to me. I’ve got no links to back it up, but my impression is that this board is not all that representative of the demographics of the split. It seems to me that the large majority of independence supporters are medium to lower income, whilst no is more of the higher earners and wealth creators.

This of course will create huge problems even if a yes vote looks likely with a wealth and brain drain and our historically low immigration not replacing much of it. I was at a lunch today and people were talking about already moving assets out of Scotland and having plans to get out in the event of a yes vote. It’s not something I have to worry about, and actually I think a lot of it is talk, but it could have a crushing impact

Slick wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:16 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:21 pm The economic arguments are important, but they are not the only arguments in this issue.

I’d like to hear a convincing reason why Scotland shouldn’t be independent

I’d say that’s nonsense, for the vast majority of those that would vote no, it’s the only issue.

As I’ve said many times before, I just don’t believe that many people are completely ideological opposed to independence and I don’t think there are that many people that are committed unionists, I’m certainly not. There are even fewer people who would choose to be governed from Westminster, all things being equal. For most problem it’s an economic argument and there are pretty much zero answers coming to pretty basic questions about that.

I swing fairly wildly from definite no to maybe yes, but until there is serious discussion and debate about the economics of it all I’ll probably vote no.

What's nonsense is the idea that it's a transactional issue, that people are shallow enough to think only in terms of what's in it for them.

There are centuries of shared history, for good and for ill, the idea of being part of something bigger than themselves, that it's time we were looking to break down barriers instead of setting them up.
The first people to suffer at the hands of the rich and powerful of England was actually the English, the 99% of Scottish people have far more in common with the 99% of English and rest of UK people than they do with those who make the laws and the rich in any parts of the UK.

Every country has its bigoted fuckwits, you only have to look at an Orange Walk to see some of ours in all their pageantry. These are some of ideologically entrenched Unionists for whom there will never be a reason for Indy. There are their equivalents on the other side of the argument too.

I guess I wanted to hear arguments about what we, as citizens of the UK, can point to and say, "We did that", from the NHS to vaccinations to breakthroughs in art, music, education, sport, engineering.

I wanted to her arguments about how we are moving away from being a progressive Northern European social democracy, but that it's only a blip in the hundreds of years that we have shared

wealth creators.

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:03 pm

petej wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:01 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:36 pm

Think it is possible to wildly overstate the extent to which the people *actually running the EU* would/will seek to exacerbate the political crisis in Britain for any number of reasons. Wouldn’t hold out hope for much more than sassy tweets from Verhofstadt et al

I agree that the EU are not likely to say much before Scotland becomes independent but if that happens the discussion at that point are between Scotland and the EU and the EU will be pragmatic. The UK if it is still governed by the populist party will always try to exacerbate things because it is politically beneficial as it excites their supporters (to the detriment of the union). I should state that I don't want Scotland to become independent from the UK but the stench from Westminster is undeniable and it needs serious reform.

Agreed they’ll be pragmatic but they’ll approach it as a headache not an opportunity and will tread pretty carefully. It is possible to wildly overstate the extent Britain and its internal politics is in the minds of the people running the EU, that runs in both directions

A reformed UK back in the EU would be better from the EU's prospective for now they probably would like a UK government that is less prone to verbal diarrhea and more stable and sensible. I suspect they are pretty bored of our gobshites and outside of verhoftstadt they've tended not to respond and have more important business to get on with. The EU was a dull pragmatic negotiating partner during brexit mostly just repeating the same positions over and over while our interchangeable negotiators/idiots gormlessly flailed about before resigning via the telegraph.

petej wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:28 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:03 pm

petej wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:01 pm
I agree that the EU are not likely to say much before Scotland becomes independent but if that happens the discussion at that point are between Scotland and the EU and the EU will be pragmatic. The UK if it is still governed by the populist party will always try to exacerbate things because it is politically beneficial as it excites their supporters (to the detriment of the union). I should state that I don't want Scotland to become independent from the UK but the stench from Westminster is undeniable and it needs serious reform.

Agreed they’ll be pragmatic but they’ll approach it as a headache not an opportunity and will tread pretty carefully. It is possible to wildly overstate the extent Britain and its internal politics is in the minds of the people running the EU, that runs in both directions

A reformed UK back in the EU would be better from the EU's prospective for now they probably would like a UK government that is less prone to verbal diarrhea and more stable and sensible. I suspect they are pretty bored of our gobshites and outside of verhoftstadt they've tended not to respond and have more important business to get on with. The EU was a dull pragmatic negotiating partner during brexit mostly just repeating the same positions over and over while our interchangeable negotiators/idiots gormlessly flailed about before resigning via the telegraph.

Fully agree, which is my point. Ideally for the EU we have some competence in Westminster and everyone moves on with their lives. Anything that gets in the way of that is a nuisance they could live without

petej wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:16 pm . The request on the SNP to have a serious back and forth considering the level of the Westminster idiots is unfair. The whole of the UK government and their media pals are fundamentally dishonest and represent pretty much the very worst of UK society.

No it isn't. For years we've been told "it's Westminsters fault" (Yousaf blaming Westminster for not being able to deal with the horrific drugs problem as recently as last month) and an independent Scotland would be a better place.

If we're holding them to the same low bar then we aren't aiming for anything better, we are simply having liars with different coloured rosettes.

Tichtheid wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:23 pm

wealth creators.

Individuals aside, there are some very large insurance companies whose books are English clients and had clearly stated they would need to move South. Standard Life was certainly one of them, prior to the merger.

I definitely think economic viability has to work before the people would vote for it. Surely. Along with projected stress testing for the next bat fvcker disease.

But I do have some sympathies, as NZ pulled away from Aus early on in the game (was originally governed from NSW). Fortunately that bandaid was ripped off !

If there was another one, would you be allowed to vote in the referendum? Or wouldn’t they allow you to as you live here I thought?? As in only those who actually get hugely impacted should be able to vote.

Ymx wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:37 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:23 pm

wealth creators.

Individuals aside, there are some very large insurance companies whose books are English clients and had clearly stated they would need to move South. Standard Life was certainly one of them, prior to the merger.

I definitely think economic viability has to work before the people would vote for it. Surely. Along with projected stress testing for the next bat fvcker disease.

But I do have some sympathies, as NZ pulled away from Aus early on in the game (was originally governed from NSW). Fortunately that bandaid was ripped off !

If there was another one, would you be allowed to vote in the referendum? Or wouldn’t they allow you to as you live here I thought?? As in only those who actually get hugely impacted should be able to vote.

I laughed at the term wealth creator as it’s tied in with the myth of trickle down.


No I wouldn’t be allowed to vote in a referendum, the vote is for anyone who lives in Scotland, regardless of where they were born.

The issue does have an impact on everyone in the UK, though

Ymx wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:37 pm
Individuals aside, there are some very large insurance companies whose books are English clients and had clearly stated they would need to move South. Standard Life was certainly one of them, prior to the merger.

I definitely think economic viability has to work before the people would vote for it. Surely. Along with projected stress testing for the next bat fvcker disease.

But I do have some sympathies, as NZ pulled away from Aus early on in the game (was originally governed from NSW). Fortunately that bandaid was ripped off !

If there was another one, would you be allowed to vote in the referendum? Or wouldn’t they allow you to as you live here I thought?? As in only those who actually get hugely impacted should be able to vote.

Yeah, but the head fella at standard life is a Tory backer, and he said he’d move Standard Life south 25 years ago if we voted to have our own parliament. He said something similar if the Scottish government introduced different tax rates. Both of those things happened and he didn’t follow through. The guys is a serial bullshitter on this topic.

And wrt to the voting, the Scottish government have always been very clear this is about the people of Scotland, i.e. people who live here, not about nationality.

I’m not sure they could legally operate as life and pension providers to English citizens. Perhaps they might on the life side, but most certainly not on the pension products.

Obviously this would apply to Scottish Widows and many others as well.

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:58 pm

Biffer wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:50 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:36 pm

Think it is possible to wildly overstate the extent to which the people *actually running the EU* would/will seek to exacerbate the political crisis in Britain for any number of reasons. Wouldn’t hold out hope for much more than sassy tweets from Verhofstadt et al

Well, there’s also the prospect of demonstrating the benefit of the ‘European project’ that they talk about. Being able to demonstrate to anyone else who thinks about leaving that an area that did leave chose to come back as soon as possible is a demonstration of the worth of being in the EU, particularly if you can then hold it up against the rest of a UK which has slow growth, declining living standards etc while you’re helping Scotland improve all those things inside the EU. That’d be how they may see it in more pragmatic political terms.

This seems a little hypothetical when compared to Macron’s pretty serious attempts to create a stable relationship with the British government and the damage it may do to Britain’s defence role with the Baltics etc. before we get to, say, the implications within Spain of granting separatist nations favours and routes into the EU.

The EU has *already* made the point about the damage caused by leaving and you see that in the changed rhetoric from Eurosceptics within the bloc. Scottish independence is just a headache for them

Not sure Spain would worry too much. They're not a union, Scotland are already recognised as a country of their own, etc. Very far from Spain's situation with the Catalans

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:48 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:58 pm

Biffer wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:50 pm

Well, there’s also the prospect of demonstrating the benefit of the ‘European project’ that they talk about. Being able to demonstrate to anyone else who thinks about leaving that an area that did leave chose to come back as soon as possible is a demonstration of the worth of being in the EU, particularly if you can then hold it up against the rest of a UK which has slow growth, declining living standards etc while you’re helping Scotland improve all those things inside the EU. That’d be how they may see it in more pragmatic political terms.

This seems a little hypothetical when compared to Macron’s pretty serious attempts to create a stable relationship with the British government and the damage it may do to Britain’s defence role with the Baltics etc. before we get to, say, the implications within Spain of granting separatist nations favours and routes into the EU.

The EU has *already* made the point about the damage caused by leaving and you see that in the changed rhetoric from Eurosceptics within the bloc. Scottish independence is just a headache for them

Not sure Spain would worry too much. They're not a union, Scotland are already recognised as a country of their own, etc. Very far from Spain's situation with the Catalans

Hmm this is basically the opposite of what the Spanish government have done and said at most points on this issue. I suppose much like it would in reverse it depends a little on who is in power in Madrid, but still my point stands from the start that this is all just a headache rather than an opportunity for the EU. They’re not sat in Brussels thinking about how to screw the English, they’re not thinking about us at all unless they can’t help it.

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:55 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:48 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:58 pm

This seems a little hypothetical when compared to Macron’s pretty serious attempts to create a stable relationship with the British government and the damage it may do to Britain’s defence role with the Baltics etc. before we get to, say, the implications within Spain of granting separatist nations favours and routes into the EU.

The EU has *already* made the point about the damage caused by leaving and you see that in the changed rhetoric from Eurosceptics within the bloc. Scottish independence is just a headache for them

Not sure Spain would worry too much. They're not a union, Scotland are already recognised as a country of their own, etc. Very far from Spain's situation with the Catalans

Hmm this is basically the opposite of what the Spanish government have done and said at most points on this issue. I suppose much like it would in reverse it depends a little on who is in power in Madrid, but still my point stands from the start that this is all just a headache rather than an opportunity for the EU. They’re not sat in Brussels thinking about how to screw the English, they’re not thinking about us at all unless they can’t help it.

It’s not though. There are multiple instances of Spanish ministers or former ministers saying the exact opposite of what you’re saying.

Biffer wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:39 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:55 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:48 pm

Not sure Spain would worry too much. They're not a union, Scotland are already recognised as a country of their own, etc. Very far from Spain's situation with the Catalans

Hmm this is basically the opposite of what the Spanish government have done and said at most points on this issue. I suppose much like it would in reverse it depends a little on who is in power in Madrid, but still my point stands from the start that this is all just a headache rather than an opportunity for the EU. They’re not sat in Brussels thinking about how to screw the English, they’re not thinking about us at all unless they can’t help it.

It’s not though. There are multiple instances of Spanish ministers or former ministers saying the exact opposite of what you’re saying.

I'd suggest you've misinterpreted what I'm saying. I'm not saying 'Spain would never let Scotland join the EU'.

So long as it is done in a constitutionally legal manner (i.e. you must go cap in hand to Westminster to let you have a vote), then Spain would have zero issue with it.

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:48 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:58 pm

Biffer wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:50 pm

Well, there’s also the prospect of demonstrating the benefit of the ‘European project’ that they talk about. Being able to demonstrate to anyone else who thinks about leaving that an area that did leave chose to come back as soon as possible is a demonstration of the worth of being in the EU, particularly if you can then hold it up against the rest of a UK which has slow growth, declining living standards etc while you’re helping Scotland improve all those things inside the EU. That’d be how they may see it in more pragmatic political terms.

This seems a little hypothetical when compared to Macron’s pretty serious attempts to create a stable relationship with the British government and the damage it may do to Britain’s defence role with the Baltics etc. before we get to, say, the implications within Spain of granting separatist nations favours and routes into the EU.

The EU has *already* made the point about the damage caused by leaving and you see that in the changed rhetoric from Eurosceptics within the bloc. Scottish independence is just a headache for them

Not sure Spain would worry too much. They're not a union, Scotland are already recognised as a country of their own, etc. Very far from Spain's situation with the Catalans

Wonder in what sense you think the UK is different from Spain? Apart from the UK having 'Union' it is in every other legal and diplomatic sense a single country with its own internal sub national state arrangements (just like Spain).

Catalonia has its own legal system, history, devolved government and even a different language. In what sense does it have a lesser claim to be a 'nation' than Scotland?

tc27 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:47 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:48 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:58 pm

This seems a little hypothetical when compared to Macron’s pretty serious attempts to create a stable relationship with the British government and the damage it may do to Britain’s defence role with the Baltics etc. before we get to, say, the implications within Spain of granting separatist nations favours and routes into the EU.

The EU has *already* made the point about the damage caused by leaving and you see that in the changed rhetoric from Eurosceptics within the bloc. Scottish independence is just a headache for them

Not sure Spain would worry too much. They're not a union, Scotland are already recognised as a country of their own, etc. Very far from Spain's situation with the Catalans

Wonder in what sense you think the UK is different from Spain? Apart from the UK having 'Union' it is in every other legal and diplomatic sense a single country with its own internal sub national state arrangements (just like Spain).

Catalonia has its own legal system, history, devolved government and even a different language. In what sense does it have a lesser claim to be a 'nation' than Scotland?

Well, the fact that Scotland is already recognised as a separate country is quite a big difference. The UK is four individual countries in a political union; whatever the strength of Catalonia's claims, they're currently just an autonomous community with some devolved government. Spain is not a political union like the UK. It's a single country.

The question in Scotland is about leaving a political union and gaining full sovereignty. The Catalans are somewhat further behind. Perhaps you don't see any difference and I agree the differences are slight, but a lot of what Catalonia is fighting for, Scotland already has.

Interestingly they've never managed to get even 50% of a vote in favour of independence... I always thought it was more popular that that

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:09 pm

tc27 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:47 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:48 pm

Not sure Spain would worry too much. They're not a union, Scotland are already recognised as a country of their own, etc. Very far from Spain's situation with the Catalans

Wonder in what sense you think the UK is different from Spain? Apart from the UK having 'Union' it is in every other legal and diplomatic sense a single country with its own internal sub national state arrangements (just like Spain).

Catalonia has its own legal system, history, devolved government and even a different language. In what sense does it have a lesser claim to be a 'nation' than Scotland?

Well, the fact that Scotland is already recognised as a separate country is quite a big difference. The UK is four individual countries in a political union; whatever the strength of Catalonia's claims, they're currently just an autonomous community with some devolved government. Spain is not a political union like the UK. It's a single country.

The question in Scotland is about leaving a political union and gaining full sovereignty. The Catalans are somewhat further behind. Perhaps you don't see any difference and I agree the differences are slight, but a lot of what Catalonia is fighting for, Scotland already has.

Interestingly they've never managed to get even 50% of a vote in favour of independence... I always thought it was more popular that that

I think in the UK the union refers specifically to the Union of Crowns and Parliaments. In the acts of Union there is no reference to it being a political union of the nature you suggest and nor does this exist in practice.

To me it's very obvious there are huge differences between a union like the EU and the one created by the union of Parliaments in 1701. A union in the manner I think you are talking about would involve separate and equally sovereign governments bound together in treaties with some shared institutions.

Essentially - despite having 'Union' in the full name the UK is a nation and state like Germany, Spain, Belgium and the USA (I choose all these because there were formed of previously sovereign kingdoms/republics).

tc27 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:38 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:09 pm

tc27 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:47 pm

Wonder in what sense you think the UK is different from Spain? Apart from the UK having 'Union' it is in every other legal and diplomatic sense a single country with its own internal sub national state arrangements (just like Spain).

Catalonia has its own legal system, history, devolved government and even a different language. In what sense does it have a lesser claim to be a 'nation' than Scotland?

Well, the fact that Scotland is already recognised as a separate country is quite a big difference. The UK is four individual countries in a political union; whatever the strength of Catalonia's claims, they're currently just an autonomous community with some devolved government. Spain is not a political union like the UK. It's a single country.

The question in Scotland is about leaving a political union and gaining full sovereignty. The Catalans are somewhat further behind. Perhaps you don't see any difference and I agree the differences are slight, but a lot of what Catalonia is fighting for, Scotland already has.

Interestingly they've never managed to get even 50% of a vote in favour of independence... I always thought it was more popular that that

I think in the UK the union refers specifically to the Union of Crowns and Parliaments. In the acts of Union there is no reference to it being a political union of the nature you suggest and nor does this exist in practice.

To me it's very obvious there are huge differences between a union like the EU and the one created by the union of Parliaments in 1701. A union in the manner I think you are talking about would involve separate and equally sovereign governments bound together in treaties with some shared institutions.

Essentially - despite having 'Union' in the full name the UK is a nation and state like Germany, Spain, Belgium and the USA (I choose all these because there were formed of previously sovereign kingdoms/republics).

And yet all the constituent countries are indeed recognised as countries. Even Wales.

I read this a few days ago - interesting stuff: https://www.thenational.scot/politics/2 ... land-part/