NPR

inactionman wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 3:45 pm

Slick wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:37 pm Meh, it’s been like this in Edinburgh for ages and it’s fine, in fact, I like it.

Could do with more enforcement but I don’t really see the issue in a city

It's got to be pretty much essential in a city with narrow roads and many, many tourists.

I do find it a bit irritating when used on roads outside of urban settings - the roads leading up to and past Peebles are 20 miles an hour limits, and I sometimes need to go that way to visit family. I could do without crawling along at 20 past fields when I've got a 9 hour journey. I do note that the 20 is mostly past hamlets, and they can't just chop and change between 60 and 20 every few hundred yards, but it does drag!

Guy Smiley wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 4:27 pm I've been a life time rev head... I loved cars so much I trained as a mechanic when I left school. I'm all over the technical complexity that leads to the sort of glory that is a Ferrari V12 on the over run, a slight over steer on a damp road under engine braking, the little lift and cross you get over a turning crest under more power than is advisable and all the rest....

but fuck cars in built areas. We devote so much space and so many resources to catering to car use and imprison ourselves within a tiny proportion of that space while begrudging any attempt to make it safer or cleaner. We live in our little box houses separated off from our fellow humans, we scuttle from inside that to inside the car where we seal ourselves off from discerning other drivers as fellow humans and reduce them to the status of simple problems that should be eradicated for having the temerity to use the space we desire, we distract ourselves with infotainment and phones while we hurtle about like crazed asteroids and we work hard to avoid any contact with our natural surroundings as much as we possibly can...

and we whinge about crime and social problems because someone else should fix it.

dpedin wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 5:57 pm

inactionman wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 3:45 pm

Slick wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:37 pm Meh, it’s been like this in Edinburgh for ages and it’s fine, in fact, I like it.

Could do with more enforcement but I don’t really see the issue in a city

It's got to be pretty much essential in a city with narrow roads and many, many tourists.

I do find it a bit irritating when used on roads outside of urban settings - the roads leading up to and past Peebles are 20 miles an hour limits, and I sometimes need to go that way to visit family. I could do without crawling along at 20 past fields when I've got a 9 hour journey. I do note that the 20 is mostly past hamlets, and they can't just chop and change between 60 and 20 every few hundred yards, but it does drag!

I have no issue with 20mph speed limits in Embra, it works fine and if it saves a few lives and serious injuries then all the better. It doesnt really impact on travel times at all around town and there is no noticeable difference as far as I am concerned. In reality it probably slows those who would be doing 35mph in a 30 limit to 25-28mph in a 20 limit. It probably adds a minute or two max onto any journey. If you have a car and can afford to run one around town then you are lucky. In Embra I suspect the average speed of a car in town is no better than what a horse drawn carriage achieved 100 years ago! I honestly dont understand what all the moaning is about, it works, it saves lives and serious injury.

Sandstorm wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:37 am

Uncle fester wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:36 am Do you guys not have bypasses?

How will I get to the pub?

Guy Smiley wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 4:27 pm I've been a life time rev head... I loved cars so much I trained as a mechanic when I left school. I'm all over the technical complexity that leads to the sort of glory that is a Ferrari V12 on the over run, a slight over steer on a damp road under engine braking, the little lift and cross you get over a turning crest under more power than is advisable and all the rest....

but fuck cars in built areas. We devote so much space and so many resources to catering to car use and imprison ourselves within a tiny proportion of that space while begrudging any attempt to make it safer or cleaner. We live in our little box houses separated off from our fellow humans, we scuttle from inside that to inside the car where we seal ourselves off from discerning other drivers as fellow humans and reduce them to the status of simple problems that should be eradicated for having the temerity to use the space we desire, we distract ourselves with infotainment and phones while we hurtle about like crazed asteroids and we work hard to avoid any contact with our natural surroundings as much as we possibly can...

and we whinge about crime and social problems because someone else should fix it.

Line6 HXFX wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 4:19 pm Most car journeys are non essential, if it encourages car owners to think it is quicker to get where they are going on a pushbike, great.

Also the difference between hitting someone at 30 and 20, to that person is massive.

Wish I was hit at 20mph.
Maybe only one disc would be shot, instead of 3..and the shaking in excruciating pain would be manageable by the use of a couple of paracetamol.

It really irks me that after 13 years of Tory devestation and austerity, and ruin....motorists are outraged when asked to drop their speed by 10mph and drive a bit more safely, to the extent the lot of the motoring lobby in England, GB News (and moaning motorists in Wales) are calling for Mark Drakefords head and the dissolution of the Welsh Assembly.

This fucking country.

Dan54 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:04 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:37 am

Uncle fester wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:36 am Do you guys not have bypasses?

How will I get to the pub?

More importantly how will you get home. By passes are a pain to work out when you pissed aren't they?

Sandstorm wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:54 pm

Dan54 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:04 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:37 am

How will I get to the pub?

More importantly how will you get home. By passes are a pain to work out when you pissed aren't they?

I want my self-driving car. I’ll drive to the pub, have 4 pints and then sit in the back while AI takes the wheel home.

Sandstorm wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:54 pm

Dan54 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:04 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:37 am

How will I get to the pub?

More importantly how will you get home. By passes are a pain to work out when you pissed aren't they?

I want my self-driving car. I’ll drive to the pub, have 4 pints and then sit in the back while AI takes the wheel home.

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 7:41 pm

dpedin wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 5:57 pm

inactionman wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 3:45 pm

It's got to be pretty much essential in a city with narrow roads and many, many tourists.

I do find it a bit irritating when used on roads outside of urban settings - the roads leading up to and past Peebles are 20 miles an hour limits, and I sometimes need to go that way to visit family. I could do without crawling along at 20 past fields when I've got a 9 hour journey. I do note that the 20 is mostly past hamlets, and they can't just chop and change between 60 and 20 every few hundred yards, but it does drag!

I have no issue with 20mph speed limits in Embra, it works fine and if it saves a few lives and serious injuries then all the better. It doesnt really impact on travel times at all around town and there is no noticeable difference as far as I am concerned. In reality it probably slows those who would be doing 35mph in a 30 limit to 25-28mph in a 20 limit. It probably adds a minute or two max onto any journey. If you have a car and can afford to run one around town then you are lucky. In Embra I suspect the average speed of a car in town is no better than what a horse drawn carriage achieved 100 years ago! I honestly dont understand what all the moaning is about, it works, it saves lives and serious injury.

I've lived and worked in major cities and towns all around the SE of England and yes, if your in a major city or town where traffic daily crawls around at a snails pace, 20mph zones make sense. Llanelli is not that, no nose to tail crawling along, ever, it's a rural town. You drive through, no probs, if I want to get to the other side of town, even at peak times, I'll allow 10 mins max..

Biffer wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 8:24 am

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 7:41 pm

dpedin wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 5:57 pm

I have no issue with 20mph speed limits in Embra, it works fine and if it saves a few lives and serious injuries then all the better. It doesnt really impact on travel times at all around town and there is no noticeable difference as far as I am concerned. In reality it probably slows those who would be doing 35mph in a 30 limit to 25-28mph in a 20 limit. It probably adds a minute or two max onto any journey. If you have a car and can afford to run one around town then you are lucky. In Embra I suspect the average speed of a car in town is no better than what a horse drawn carriage achieved 100 years ago! I honestly dont understand what all the moaning is about, it works, it saves lives and serious injury.

I've lived and worked in major cities and towns all around the SE of England and yes, if your in a major city or town where traffic daily crawls around at a snails pace, 20mph zones make sense. Llanelli is not that, no nose to tail crawling along, ever, it's a rural town. You drive through, no probs, if I want to get to the other side of town, even at peak times, I'll allow 10 mins max..

And why is that more important that making a safe environment for pedestrians and other road users?

Biffer wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 8:24 am

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 7:41 pm

dpedin wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 5:57 pm

I have no issue with 20mph speed limits in Embra, it works fine and if it saves a few lives and serious injuries then all the better. It doesnt really impact on travel times at all around town and there is no noticeable difference as far as I am concerned. In reality it probably slows those who would be doing 35mph in a 30 limit to 25-28mph in a 20 limit. It probably adds a minute or two max onto any journey. If you have a car and can afford to run one around town then you are lucky. In Embra I suspect the average speed of a car in town is no better than what a horse drawn carriage achieved 100 years ago! I honestly dont understand what all the moaning is about, it works, it saves lives and serious injury.

I've lived and worked in major cities and towns all around the SE of England and yes, if your in a major city or town where traffic daily crawls around at a snails pace, 20mph zones make sense. Llanelli is not that, no nose to tail crawling along, ever, it's a rural town. You drive through, no probs, if I want to get to the other side of town, even at peak times, I'll allow 10 mins max..

And why is that more important that making a safe environment for pedestrians and other road users?

Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:36 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:37 pm

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:25 am Living in an area where it was trialled, it's been a pain in the arse tbh, though mostly ignored or enforced. Now it's been rolled out it's a fucking nightmare.. More streets added. 40 down to 30 has been snuck in also.. I'm changing between 2nd and 3rd constantly, how the fuck can that reduce pollution?
To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30..

Actually, it possibly increases pollution because
a) There are optimal running temperatures for stuff like catalytic converters and low speeds are less effective.
b) Obviously combustion engines have better mpg at some speeds than others: and 20 is not it.
c) Meantime, the traffic is spending longer in the zone polluting it at these suboptimal levels of a) and b).

It's not about pollution, it's about safety.

TB63 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 9:32 am I should say, 10 mins to cross town is with the 20mph limit in place, it's the needless extension to very low pedestrian areas from 30 to 20, used to be 20 mins to Pembrey, now it's 35...

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 9:29 am

Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:36 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:37 pm

Actually, it possibly increases pollution because
a) There are optimal running temperatures for stuff like catalytic converters and low speeds are less effective.
b) Obviously combustion engines have better mpg at some speeds than others: and 20 is not it.
c) Meantime, the traffic is spending longer in the zone polluting it at these suboptimal levels of a) and b).

It's not about pollution, it's about safety.

Really.

So let's examine that. 35 tonne lorry doing 30 mph has the same momentum as a 1 tonne car doing?

Spoiler

Show

1,050 mph

So artics are allowed the same speed in towns but speed limits are about safety?

Now, I'm not going to bore or confuse with full detail of additional factors such as
- coefficients of friction
- quality of road surface
- incline of road surface
- weather conditions
- temperature
- car safety features: ABS etc
- driver capability

Ultimately, arbitrary speed limits are nonsense but they are there because generally, people are thick and selfish plus the UK hands out driving licences like confetti to anyone who can say the word "car". However, there
are optimums even using speed limits as a blunt tool and 30 mph is not it with the exceptions of high risk areas such as in front of schools (which I will return to**) and pedestrianised areas shared with vehicles.

** Where the biggest breachers of safety (parking on double yellows, speeding, stopping in the middle of the road) are ALWAYS the f**king parents themselves.

Biffer wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:40 pm

TB63 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 9:32 am I should say, 10 mins to cross town is with the 20mph limit in place, it's the needless extension to very low pedestrian areas from 30 to 20, used to be 20 mins to Pembrey, now it's 35...

Lowering the speed limit by 33% in parts of your journey increases the fourney time by 75%?

I smell bullshit.

Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:54 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:51 pm

Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:33 pm

Exactly. It's absolutely fine.

And it demonstrably saves lives.

Yep, I half get any annoyance if it's in place for for wider, non residential stretches.

In most cases though it just seems like another thing to get angry about. I live on a busy residential street that has previously been put down from 30 to 20. With young kids, I'm far happier having the majority of traffic going through at 20 - 25 rather than 30 - 35. Stopping distance of a car halves at 20 compared to 30 iirc.

Yep. Fatality rate at 30mph hitting a pedestrian is one in five. At 20mph it's one in twenty.

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:25 am To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30..

TB63 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 8:21 pm

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:25 am To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30..

Sandstorm wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 10:28 am

TB63 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 8:21 pm

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:25 am To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30..

Which Party donor has the contract to manufacture and put up thousands of new 20 mph signs across Wales?

David in Gwent wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 7:28 pm

Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:54 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:51 pm

Yep, I half get any annoyance if it's in place for for wider, non residential stretches.

In most cases though it just seems like another thing to get angry about. I live on a busy residential street that has previously been put down from 30 to 20. With young kids, I'm far happier having the majority of traffic going through at 20 - 25 rather than 30 - 35. Stopping distance of a car halves at 20 compared to 30 iirc.

Yep. Fatality rate at 30mph hitting a pedestrian is one in five. At 20mph it's one in twenty.

When not stop there? surely if we cared about deaths on the road we should be driving at 10mph?

Sandstorm wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 10:28 am

TB63 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 8:21 pm

TB63 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:25 am To show the madness, Llanelli to Pembrey used to be 30-40-30.. Now it's 30-20-30-20-30-40-30-20-30-20-30..

Which Party donor has the contract to manufacture and put up thousands of new 20 mph signs across Wales?

dpedin wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 5:57 pm I have no issue with 20mph speed limits in Embra, it works fine and if it saves a few lives and serious injuries then all the better. It doesnt really impact on travel times at all around town and there is no noticeable difference as far as I am concerned.

Slick wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 1:43 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 1:21 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 1:02 pm
Militant cyclists are also twats. "You should cycle to work" Like fuck am I riding 13 miles to work on a bike on a dual carriageway in the pissing rain and then doing the return journey in the dark, and both ways arriving lathered in sweat and road grime.

A pet hate of mine.

In Milton Keynes, the one decent bit of design in the place was a network or "redways". These are tarmac (coloured red.........) routes which cover the entire place and mean that mostly cyclists never need to cross a road (bridges and underpasses), let alone cycle along a road. Instead, vast numbers of them insist on using the roads. "It's my legal right"........... "to endanger myself and maybe die". The MAMILs are the uber c**ts of the lot. They are ecstatic now they are allowed to ride 20 abreast down local country lanes in convoys. Even the farmers hate the c**ts now.

Streets closed off for half the day for footie, rugby, cricket, running etc. OK

A few people cycling on a country lane delaying you by 2 minutes, absolute cunts

inactionman wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:04 pm I was brought up in a New Town where the designer (Frederick Gibberd) also put a fair bit of thought into this - he kept the old roads/lanes as fully closed off cycle networks and superimposed a grid-based road system. I could ride a bike from my old house in the original village all the way to the new town centre (about 3 miles) by riding down cycle tracks, most of them surrounded by woods and with underpasses to avoid going on the main roads

It was excellent - for a kid just riding his bike to a mate's house or to school.

The issue is, the paths are shared, so if you want to blast along you can't really use them in that way unless you want to maim a child or get clotheslined by a dog's lead. That's why many cyclists will use a road despite there being a cycle track. They are allowed to do this, and it's ultimately safer if they're going 20mph+

I do agree there are dickhead cyclists - funnily enough, some people are just dickheads regardless of their mode of transport.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:43 pm

dpedin wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 5:57 pm I have no issue with 20mph speed limits in Embra, it works fine and if it saves a few lives and serious injuries then all the better. It doesnt really impact on travel times at all around town and there is no noticeable difference as far as I am concerned.

No. And I was about to point out that would be the case in Ed because during much of the time, the traffic in the centre means that is so. Was even worse for the years of the tram construction debacle.

However, on the bit in bold, then why not save a few more and ban all transport in the city?

Margin__Walker wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:52 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:43 pm

dpedin wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 5:57 pm I have no issue with 20mph speed limits in Embra, it works fine and if it saves a few lives and serious injuries then all the better. It doesnt really impact on travel times at all around town and there is no noticeable difference as far as I am concerned.

No. And I was about to point out that would be the case in Ed because during much of the time, the traffic in the centre means that is so. Was even worse for the years of the tram construction debacle.

However, on the bit in bold, then why not save a few more and ban all transport in the city?

Because that would be stupid, as you well know so it's a pretty immature line of argument.

Life's about risk management and striking a good balance. Commerce and quality of life isn't going to grind to a halt with 20mph limits in built up areas and there will likely be a demonstrable reduction of death and serious injury on roads.

Biffer wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:41 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 9:29 am

Biffer wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:36 pm

It's not about pollution, it's about safety.

Really.

So let's examine that. 35 tonne lorry doing 30 mph has the same momentum as a 1 tonne car doing?

Spoiler

Show

1,050 mph

So artics are allowed the same speed in towns but speed limits are about safety?

Now, I'm not going to bore or confuse with full detail of additional factors such as
- coefficients of friction
- quality of road surface
- incline of road surface
- weather conditions
- temperature
- car safety features: ABS etc
- driver capability

Ultimately, arbitrary speed limits are nonsense but they are there because generally, people are thick and selfish plus the UK hands out driving licences like confetti to anyone who can say the word "car". However, there
are optimums even using speed limits as a blunt tool and 30 mph is not it with the exceptions of high risk areas such as in front of schools (which I will return to**) and pedestrianised areas shared with vehicles.

** Where the biggest breachers of safety (parking on double yellows, speeding, stopping in the middle of the road) are ALWAYS the f**king parents themselves.

Pointless whataboutery.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:52 pm

inactionman wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:04 pm I was brought up in a New Town where the designer (Frederick Gibberd) also put a fair bit of thought into this - he kept the old roads/lanes as fully closed off cycle networks and superimposed a grid-based road system. I could ride a bike from my old house in the original village all the way to the new town centre (about 3 miles) by riding down cycle tracks, most of them surrounded by woods and with underpasses to avoid going on the main roads

It was excellent - for a kid just riding his bike to a mate's house or to school.

The issue is, the paths are shared, so if you want to blast along you can't really use them in that way unless you want to maim a child or get clotheslined by a dog's lead. That's why many cyclists will use a road despite there being a cycle track. They are allowed to do this, and it's ultimately safer if they're going 20mph+

I do agree there are dickhead cyclists - funnily enough, some people are just dickheads regardless of their mode of transport.

On the face of it, this is an entirely plausible and reasonable argument (and one you won't be surprised to hear that we hear a lot here (hear, hear, here) too).

However, I can't help feeling it really reads as
- we create a safe environment for cyclists and pedestrians which sometimes would require the cyclists to moderate their behaviour in the interests of wider safety
BUT
- cyclists aren't prepared to accept that and instead want to take to the roads and then expect motorists to afford them exactly the same moderation in behaviour they, themselves are not prepared to give to pedestrians?

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:46 pm

Slick wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 1:43 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 1:21 pm
A pet hate of mine.

In Milton Keynes, the one decent bit of design in the place was a network or "redways". These are tarmac (coloured red.........) routes which cover the entire place and mean that mostly cyclists never need to cross a road (bridges and underpasses), let alone cycle along a road. Instead, vast numbers of them insist on using the roads. "It's my legal right"........... "to endanger myself and maybe die". The MAMILs are the uber c**ts of the lot. They are ecstatic now they are allowed to ride 20 abreast down local country lanes in convoys. Even the farmers hate the c**ts now.

Streets closed off for half the day for footie, rugby, cricket, running etc. OK

A few people cycling on a country lane delaying you by 2 minutes, absolute cunts

You are the Obi Wan of false equivalences.

In the examples you cite, those are decisions taken by authorities (with whom you can contest or represent your dissent to in whatever democratic manner you desire) ostensibly in the public's interest i.e. the greater overall good. Further, they are occasional.

Further, they are occasional

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:52 pm

inactionman wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:04 pm I was brought up in a New Town where the designer (Frederick Gibberd) also put a fair bit of thought into this - he kept the old roads/lanes as fully closed off cycle networks and superimposed a grid-based road system. I could ride a bike from my old house in the original village all the way to the new town centre (about 3 miles) by riding down cycle tracks, most of them surrounded by woods and with underpasses to avoid going on the main roads

It was excellent - for a kid just riding his bike to a mate's house or to school.

The issue is, the paths are shared, so if you want to blast along you can't really use them in that way unless you want to maim a child or get clotheslined by a dog's lead. That's why many cyclists will use a road despite there being a cycle track. They are allowed to do this, and it's ultimately safer if they're going 20mph+

I do agree there are dickhead cyclists - funnily enough, some people are just dickheads regardless of their mode of transport.

On the face of it, this is an entirely plausible and reasonable argument (and one you won't be surprised to hear that we hear a lot here (hear, hear, here) too).

However, I can't help feeling it really reads as
- we create a safe environment for cyclists and pedestrians which sometimes would require the cyclists to moderate their behaviour in the interests of wider safety
BUT
- cyclists aren't prepared to accept that and instead want to take to the roads and then expect motorists to afford them exactly the same moderation in behaviour they, themselves are not prepared to give to pedestrians?

Sandstorm wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 3:00 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:52 pm

inactionman wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:04 pm I was brought up in a New Town where the designer (Frederick Gibberd) also put a fair bit of thought into this - he kept the old roads/lanes as fully closed off cycle networks and superimposed a grid-based road system. I could ride a bike from my old house in the original village all the way to the new town centre (about 3 miles) by riding down cycle tracks, most of them surrounded by woods and with underpasses to avoid going on the main roads

It was excellent - for a kid just riding his bike to a mate's house or to school.

The issue is, the paths are shared, so if you want to blast along you can't really use them in that way unless you want to maim a child or get clotheslined by a dog's lead. That's why many cyclists will use a road despite there being a cycle track. They are allowed to do this, and it's ultimately safer if they're going 20mph+

I do agree there are dickhead cyclists - funnily enough, some people are just dickheads regardless of their mode of transport.

On the face of it, this is an entirely plausible and reasonable argument (and one you won't be surprised to hear that we hear a lot here (hear, hear, here) too).

However, I can't help feeling it really reads as
- we create a safe environment for cyclists and pedestrians which sometimes would require the cyclists to moderate their behaviour in the interests of wider safety
BUT
- cyclists aren't prepared to accept that and instead want to take to the roads and then expect motorists to afford them exactly the same moderation in behaviour they, themselves are not prepared to give to pedestrians?

Yup. Happens where cyclists run red lights because they don't want to be held up, then angrily tell car drivers to slow down to pass them 2 abreast in the countryside.
"Being held up in your car for 30 secs is a big deal....?"


Everyone hates everyone else.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:55 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:52 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:43 pm

No. And I was about to point out that would be the case in Ed because during much of the time, the traffic in the centre means that is so. Was even worse for the years of the tram construction debacle.

However, on the bit in bold, then why not save a few more and ban all transport in the city?

Because that would be stupid, as you well know so it's a pretty immature line of argument.

Life's about risk management and striking a good balance. Commerce and quality of life isn't going to grind to a halt with 20mph limits in built up areas and there will likely be a demonstrable reduction of death and serious injury on roads.

Why?

This whole reduction in speed is reductio ad absurdum and you've shown no data to indicate that lives saved in going from 20mph to 10mph aren't greater than 30mph to 20mph.

Margin__Walker wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 3:04 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:55 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:52 pm

Because that would be stupid, as you well know so it's a pretty immature line of argument.

Life's about risk management and striking a good balance. Commerce and quality of life isn't going to grind to a halt with 20mph limits in built up areas and there will likely be a demonstrable reduction of death and serious injury on roads.

Why?

This whole reduction in speed is reductio ad absurdum and you've shown no data to indicate that lives saved in going from 20mph to 10mph aren't greater than 30mph to 20mph.

Highlighted the relevant section for you Torq. 10mph would be safer still, but renders cars borderline pointless in towns. 20mph doesn't.

Slick wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 3:00 pm My son would love that description

I don't think it's that false. Sporting events cause massive amounts of disruption. Every weekend there are hundreds of road closures for footie up and down the country, but a few cyclists out enjoying themselves are demonised for holding folk up for a few seconds.

I just find the anger towards cyclists so unhinged and disproportionate. Every single time I go out in the car I come across motorists doing really stupid shit that could literally kill someone. But some motorists get held up by seconds and go full tonto about a person on a bike who won't harm anyone but themselves and are often just doing what they are allowed to do.

Further, they are occasional

Well, quite. How often do you get held up on a country road by cyclists and how much longer does it make your journey?