SH rugby down the drain?

[Rhubarb & Custard]

England seem to do pretty well at converting our U20s into Welsh and Scottish internationals...

It's not like we're losing Matfields and Conrad Smiths.

The ones we're losing detract from our pool of players almost good enough to be good at test rugby

I was more trying to get a dig in about Celtic poaching than claim we're missing out tbh.

The good poaching isn't being done unto us. South Africa, NZ and Australia would have bigger shouts

[OomStruisbaai]

CJ Stander was a great Irish poach.

[OomStruisbaai]

This is a weird take (to me anyhoo) for two reasons

NZ dominated (and really dominated) for the first few years only.

Do you really think the 6Ns U20s is driving (rather than reflecting) the development pathways? If the former, I think that’s a kinda crazy take

NZ played in 7 out of 10 finals until France won it in 2018.

Thats quite dominating.

You’re picking arbitrary cut offs that ‘prove your point’

I could equally say that since they stopped winning all the JWCs, NZ have been finalists in 3/8. At age group level, that’s a good return right?

With your age group player numbers and the emphasis on school rugby for your culture (both of which you say are peachy), why do SA go so poorly at age group level? How manybtimes have you made the finals? And, given you think this is a predictor of adult team performance, how do you reconcile Ireland doing so well when they’ve made the finals twice? (One just now)

You do talk some amount of shite.

3/8 isn't a good return right?

NZ win it 6 times until 2016

The All Blacks winning WCs in 2011 & 2015. Co insident?

The 2007 Springbok WC winners was build around Jake Whites JwC winners from 2002

[Simian]

NZ played in 7 out of 10 finals until France won it in 2018.

Thats quite dominating.

You’re picking arbitrary cut offs that ‘prove your point’

I could equally say that since they stopped winning all the JWCs, NZ have been finalists in 3/8. At age group level, that’s a good return right?

With your age group player numbers and the emphasis on school rugby for your culture (both of which you say are peachy), why do SA go so poorly at age group level? How manybtimes have you made the finals? And, given you think this is a predictor of adult team performance, how do you reconcile Ireland doing so well when they’ve made the finals twice? (One just now)

You do talk some amount of shite.

3/8 isn't a good return right?

NZ win it 6 times until 2016

The All Blacks winning WCs in 2011 & 2015. Co insident?

The 2007 Springbok WC winners was build around Jake Whites JwC winners from 2002

You’re cherry picking results to fit your point. Again.

But more importantly, your idea that the 6N u20s competition drives 6N development pathways is proper comedy level rugby analysis. You never replied to that.

[OomStruisbaai]

You’re picking arbitrary cut offs that ‘prove your point’

I could equally say that since they stopped winning all the JWCs, NZ have been finalists in 3/8. At age group level, that’s a good return right?

With your age group player numbers and the emphasis on school rugby for your culture (both of which you say are peachy), why do SA go so poorly at age group level? How manybtimes have you made the finals? And, given you think this is a predictor of adult team performance, how do you reconcile Ireland doing so well when they’ve made the finals twice? (One just now)

You do talk some amount of shite.

3/8 isn't a good return right?

NZ win it 6 times until 2016

The All Blacks winning WCs in 2011 & 2015. Co insident?

The 2007 Springbok WC winners was build around Jake Whites JwC winners from 2002

You’re cherry picking results to fit your point. Again.

But more importantly, your idea that the 6N u20s competition drives 6N development pathways is proper comedy level rugby analysis. You never replied to that.

You ask to many questions. So fuck off.

[Torquemada 1420]

And how many U20s actually kick on as first-choice pros (beyond the first few years when their clubs give them a shot for all that investment), let alone become senior internationals.

Well, in France, a helluva lot and that goes back as far as these age grade RWCs started. This year Bielle-biarrey and Gailleton were pulled from the U20s to play in the national team. What's different in Fra is these guys have often already played club level before being selected at Ux level.

[Guy Smiley]

From what I can tell, the tldr is: Australia in decline, Foster sucks.

That’s really it.

Yup. Australia dropped the ball following the 03 RWC. The public support for the Wallabies building up to that was phenomenal. I was living in Perth, WA which is an AFL mad town. The number of Wallabies jerseys worn on weekends was incredible. They hosted games all over the country, including Tasmania. The public were right into it. Under John O'Neill, the then ARU poured money into Super franchises and huge salaries for rugby league converts like Wendell Sailor, Lote Tuqiri and Mat Rogers following the RWC and ignored any notion of putting development funding into schools or clubs outside of the established NSW and Qld pathways.

In contrast, the AFL started pushing huge money into areas outside their traditional heartland zones and established new franchise clubs in Western Sydney and the Gold Coast. They complemented that with massive development programs aimed at the schools, particularly in those areas. They took a long view and backed it. The NRL followed suit, albeit on a smaller scale... but their development funding into schools is still streets ahead of RA.

My take on Australia's situation is that until they blow up the heavy influence of their elite inner band of clubs based in Sydney and genuinely open the running of the game up to look at serious grass roots development at school and club level they are fucked. They have blindly followed an elitist philosophy that sees people from the same small circle run the show, money poured into flagship models like the Super franchises and the men's game while they charge exorbitant fees for participation at lower levels and neglect any form of national club level competition. They console themselves by hating NZ rugby and unite behind that common enemy... hence the 'failures' of coaches like Deans and Rennie who both looked like developing players while results lagged behind hyped expectations.

NZ will be rid of Foster and there are noises being made about Board level performance, which has fallen under the broad view of a comprehensive review of the game recently completed. Our issues are less concerning than those of Australia but we are threatened by any serious falling away of Australia's performance as, until recently, we've relied too heavily in annual fixtures with them in our revenue stream. We've reduced the number of Bledisloe games and we're slowly developing stronger links with Japan, both at club and national level. Our next expansion move in my view should be into the Americas. I've said that for 20 years though.

[Niegs]

And how many U20s actually kick on as first-choice pros (beyond the first few years when their clubs give them a shot for all that investment), let alone become senior internationals.

Well, in France, a helluva lot and that goes back as far as these age grade RWCs started. This year Bielle-biarrey and Gailleton were pulled from the U20s to play in the national team. What's different in Fra is these guys have often already played club level before being selected at Ux level.

Now that'd be an interesting factor to look at. How many successful 'graduates' of a U20 team played at senior men's club level before and/or how much game time if most have? How many, by comparison, were only in age grade / academy / school sides and maybe a little 'isolated' from a higher level of play? I imagine the former happens more in France because of the greater number of clubs? (Also factoring in ProD2)

[Dogbert]

Nobody from the Borders is coming up to watch Edinburgh, and nobody from the North is going to watch Glasgow, believe me. In one case parochialism (people from Melrose wouldn't watch a Borders side if it played in Gala, so the idea of them coming to Edinburgh is heresy) and the other just distance. Borders and Caledonia ceased to exist more than 15 years ago, so improvement over the last ten is a realistic viewpoint.

I'm a Glasgow season ticket holder living in Aberdeen , I think I've missed less than half a dozen home games in the last ten years

That's not very usual though. Is it? No idea I guess, but I'd be very, very surprised.

More to the point, it was only 5 years ago that Edinburgh were getting 500ish to Myreside on a Friday night, it's now regularly at least 10x that.

I certainly know other season ticket holders from Aberdeen, Stonehaven, Dundee , Stirling , Perth, Crieff Ayr , Kilmarnock, even some from the East coast capital.

Of course the vast majority come from Glasgow & surroundings. but Glasgow have a reasonably sized fan base outside of Glasgow who attend games , probably due the the Caley Reds association ,and the fact that in the past Glasgow have played games on Stirling , Inverness , Perth and even at Rubislaw in Aberdeen - as well as being shunted around Glasgow in the past

[Fonz]

I didn't specifically comment on that but surely that's a rob Peter to pay Paul scenario after the winding Reivers and Reds eventually into those 2 i.e. shoehorning 4 teams into 2 would increase the gates of the 2 but in toto, still represents a reduction from the numbers when there were 4? Anyway, it was all such a mess, I can't remember what happened: Borders resurrected and then culled again and then one private team and one run by the union?

Nobody from the Borders is coming up to watch Edinburgh, and nobody from the North is going to watch Glasgow, believe me. In one case parochialism (people from Melrose wouldn't watch a Borders side if it played in Gala, so the idea of them coming to Edinburgh is heresy) and the other just distance. Borders and Caledonia ceased to exist more than 15 years ago, so improvement over the last ten is a realistic viewpoint.

I'm a Glasgow season ticket holder living in Aberdeen , I think I've missed less than half a dozen home games in the last ten years

Is Google telling me the truth when it says that’s a five hour round trip?

If so, hats off to you sir

[Line6 HXFX]

The price of the Varjo VR headset (the best VR headset on the planet, hitherto used and designed for specialist scientific and engineering applications), has dropped by half, making it very competitive for gaming and simulation and making it a strong competitor of the previously much more affordable Pimax Crystal.

You can also now buy a simulation rig that will move you around in any direction for 1200 quid. These two together, in the simulation space are utterrly amazing. Utterrly mind blowing.
Just saying, rugby everywhere is going to be screwed shortly.

Watching people Kicking a ball up in the air, chasing said ball and jumping to try to catch the ball, in a sport invented 100 years before the advent of TV, and when people only had religion and passages of the bible as entertainment isn't what will get young people off in the future.

Can you blame them?

[Grandpa]

And how many U20s actually kick on as first-choice pros (beyond the first few years when their clubs give them a shot for all that investment), let alone become senior internationals.

Quite a few current All Blacks were in the NZ under 20s...

I see they are going to now have an Under 20s Rugby Championship for NZ, Australia, SA and Argentina... which should help those 4 teams a lot.. as previously they hardly played outside the World Championship.

[Grandpa]

From what I can tell, the tldr is: Australia in decline, Foster sucks.

That’s really it.

Yup. Australia dropped the ball following the 03 RWC. The public support for the Wallabies building up to that was phenomenal. I was living in Perth, WA which is an AFL mad town. The number of Wallabies jerseys worn on weekends was incredible. They hosted games all over the country, including Tasmania. The public were right into it. Under John O'Neill, the then ARU poured money into Super franchises and huge salaries for rugby league converts like Wendell Sailor, Lote Tuqiri and Mat Rogers following the RWC and ignored any notion of putting development funding into schools or clubs outside of the established NSW and Qld pathways.

In contrast, the AFL started pushing huge money into areas outside their traditional heartland zones and established new franchise clubs in Western Sydney and the Gold Coast. They complemented that with massive development programs aimed at the schools, particularly in those areas. They took a long view and backed it. The NRL followed suit, albeit on a smaller scale... but their development funding into schools is still streets ahead of RA.

My take on Australia's situation is that until they blow up the heavy influence of their elite inner band of clubs based in Sydney and genuinely open the running of the game up to look at serious grass roots development at school and club level they are fucked. They have blindly followed an elitist philosophy that sees people from the same small circle run the show, money poured into flagship models like the Super franchises and the men's game while they charge exorbitant fees for participation at lower levels and neglect any form of national club level competition. They console themselves by hating NZ rugby and unite behind that common enemy... hence the 'failures' of coaches like Deans and Rennie who both looked like developing players while results lagged behind hyped expectations.

NZ will be rid of Foster and there are noises being made about Board level performance, which has fallen under the broad view of a comprehensive review of the game recently completed. Our issues are less concerning than those of Australia but we are threatened by any serious falling away of Australia's performance as, until recently, we've relied too heavily in annual fixtures with them in our revenue stream. We've reduced the number of Bledisloe games and we're slowly developing stronger links with Japan, both at club and national level. Our next expansion move in my view should be into the Americas. I've said that for 20 years though.

Ben Darwin take on the demise of Australian Rugby...

[Guy Smiley]

Yeah.. nah. Ben Darwin has a personal interest in advancing his business that focusses on cohesion and he's doing well marketing the concept, but that vid is an annoying simplification of the myriad issues facing Australian rugby that serves only to promote his business. It's not an analytical piece.

Fuck Bin Darwun.

https://www.afr.com/rear-window/hamish- ... 925-p5e7ee

The Wallabies’ descent into national embarrassment territory on Monday morning means the knives are out for coach Eddie Jones, the moody gremlin of global sport.

Australia had their arses handed to them by Wales, inflicting the country’s largest loss in World Cup history. Or in the traditional Welsh: “ffwrch!”

Jones rightly remains the focal point of ire. But scrutiny must show up at the doorstop of Rugby Australia and its cast of administrators.


What, then, of the performance of Rugby Australia chairman Hamish McLennan? The Hammer’s blue-sky idea was to pilfer Jones. McLennan can’t be blamed for the veteran coach’s baffling selection decisions. He can cop it for signing a clearly past-it coach to a five-year contract on the eve of a World Cup.

You can imagine how it went down. Eddie comes around for dinner at the new Darling Point digs. A few chablis in, Hammer says he should come home. Save the Wallabies. He accepts on one condition, scanning around the $30 million trophy home: “Five years.”

Hammer has his guy! Lock it in, Eddie.

McLennan is a product of corporate Australia’s fail-up culture. After being part of the calamity at Channel Ten on behalf of Lachlan Murdoch, McLennan’s stunning career has soared. He now chairs not only Rugby Australia but occupies the top board seat at News Corp’s REA, media company ARN Media, and serves as deputy chairman at the little shop of horrors, Magellan Financial.

Three chairmanships. The Hammer is the east coast Richard Goyder. The very existence of the McLennans and Goyders – spread obviously too thin to actually provide adequate scrutiny for shareholders – proves the professional director class is taking the piss.

Set aside the Eddie shambles, McLennan’s rugby turnaround narrative hinges on Project Aurora, which proposes hawking off a slice of the sport to investors and private equity. That was supposed to raise $250 million. Jefferies star banker Michael Stock was tasked with finding investors to buy in.

What exactly is Stock offering up? We give you a claim to several years worth of ticket receipts and broadcast revenue to losing games, played in front of half-full stadiums. The Wallabies are going to get spanked 3-0 by the British Lions on home soil in 2025. But you and the lads can get a box on the halfway line.

Earlier this year, McLennan tapped former Wallabies flanker Phil Waugh to lead the turnaround. McLennan, graduate of the exclusive Sydney Church of England Grammar School, needed a CEO to execute the game’s vision and settled on ... another Shore boy.

Waugh was then given ample space in this newspaper to explain his “plan to save Australian rugby”. Along with trying to get PE interest and growing the game in western Sydney to fend off competition from competing codes, he had a neat idea.

“I love the concept of an old boys’ day at Allianz Stadium ... three back-to-back GPS [Great Public Schools] games at Allianz Stadium from 11am to 5pm, and you just make it a festival,” Waugh said.

The “save rugby” plan involves a “festival” of Riverview, King’s and Joeys? Phil, that’s not a plan, that’s a Betoota Advocate headline.

After the 2019 World Cup exit, no fewer than 11 former Wallabies captains wrote a letter expressing no confidence in then-CEO Raelene Castle. The group included Nick Farr-Jones, George Gregan, Michael Lynagh, and successfully agitated for Castle to fall on her sword.

The Wallabies are for the first time all but guaranteed to exit a World Cup without making it out of the group stage, strapped to a checked-out coach, with a tied-up chairman. Time to get out the stationery again, boys.

[clydecloggie]

Scotland's age-grade pathways are terrible, as evidenced by the U18 and U20 results in the last few years - e.g. U20 relegating from U20WC and failing to promote back up after losing to Uruguay in the pool stage of the Trophy. It's because of the focus in the younger age grades on a few elite schools while mostly ignoring the grassroots club scene. E.g., a few years back players were banned from playing for both their schools and clubs on the same weekend to prevent overload - guess what most players chose.

For players with the ambition to go pro, the pathway is actually decent, with the FOSROC Academies tied to the pro Glasgow and Edinburgh teams, but at the moment far too few players are emerging every year to sustain the quality of the senior national side over the next decade. I'm expecting Scotland to be a fair bit weaker over the next 5-10 years. It makes the current RWC draw all the more galling.

[sockwithaticket]

From what I can tell, the tldr is: Australia in decline, Foster sucks.

That’s really it.

Kiwi decline/NH catching up set in under Hansen. They lost twice to the Irish under his tenure, twice beat England by a single point and the margins against Scotland started slipping (went from 25+ points to a max of 9). Obviously that's still a lot of winning, but the signs were there before Foster took over.

[Guy Smiley]

From what I can tell, the tldr is: Australia in decline, Foster sucks.

That’s really it.

Kiwi decline/NH catching up set in under Hansen. They lost twice to the Irish under his tenure, twice beat England by a single point and the margins against Scotland started slipping (went from 25+ points to a max of 9). Obviously that's still a lot of winning, but the signs were there before Foster took over.

Precisely and a very small group of us on PR that commented on the systemic problems in the ABs play were shouted down…. Ted was one of the few who spotted it. Worth bearing in mind that Foster was assistant to Hansen… we hear echoes of the same bullshit from him as the evolution of rot continues under his hand.

Both of them have talked about wanting to ‘play the ball’… what they mean is getting it wide and using numbers to run it. The aim was to achieve that by not committing numbers at the breakdown… and the general pattern of AB defeat over the last few years has been getting blasted off the ball.

Other patterns include the hype over ‘dual playmakers’… trying to fit Beauden Barrett and Damian MacKenzie into one team. Neither of them is a genuine pivot type who can marshall and unleash a backline, they are individualistic players who look for their own breaks. The resistance to playing Mo’unga who IS a genuine pivot type was stubborn and arrogant, and it is still apparent with BB too often cramping Mo’unga onfield… insisting on players out of position, consistently inconsistent selections and resolutely selecting out of form players in what can only be favouritism.

People laid Hansen as maybe our greatest coach. I think he inherited a golden generation of talent that almost couldn’t lose a game if they tried, fucked up the succession process as they moved on and rode a wave of hubris right up until his last stunning defeat at the hands of England in 2017. I don’t rate him as highly as others. Foster is an abomination and a terrible reflection of board processes.

[OomStruisbaai]

And how many U20s actually kick on as first-choice pros (beyond the first few years when their clubs give them a shot for all that investment), let alone become senior internationals.

Quite a few current All Blacks were in the NZ under 20s...

I see they are going to now have an Under 20s Rugby Championship for NZ, Australia, SA and Argentina... which should help those 4 teams a lot.. as previously they hardly played outside the World Championship.

South Africa have huge system of developing from schoolboy to senior structure. We have our Craven Weeks (provincial rugby) on u13 and u18 level. Some provinces even do a Inland and coastal u12 tournament going.

We have our SA Schools (U18) teams playing in a International tournament after Craven Week against the likes of England, France and sometimes Italy and Argentinia u19s. England , France use this (in Aug/Sept) to prepare for their u20 6 Nations.

That new U20 RC will be our next step for JWC.

[OomStruisbaai]

The importance of rugby developing in SA is to take rugby to our previous disadvantage areas. PoCs is being forced on provincial youth rugby to accomplish this. It open a whole new market for rugby.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Yeah.. nah. Ben Darwin has a personal interest in advancing his business that focusses on cohesion and he's doing well marketing the concept

if Razor goes well Darwin could really start to rake it in

[Grandpa]

And how many U20s actually kick on as first-choice pros (beyond the first few years when their clubs give them a shot for all that investment), let alone become senior internationals.

Quite a few current All Blacks were in the NZ under 20s...

I see they are going to now have an Under 20s Rugby Championship for NZ, Australia, SA and Argentina... which should help those 4 teams a lot.. as previously they hardly played outside the World Championship.

South Africa have huge system of developing from schoolboy to senior structure. We have our Craven Weeks (provincial rugby) on u13 and u18 level. Some provinces even do a Inland and coastal u12 tournament going.

We have our SA Schools (U18) teams playing in a International tournament after Craven Week against the likes of England, France and sometimes Italy and Argentinia u19s. England , France use this (in Aug/Sept) to prepare for their u20 6 Nations.

That new U20 RC will be our next step for JWC.

I'm hoping Razor helps restructure NZ Rugby from grassroots to board level... it's an antiquated dinosaur trying to survive on fumes... SA'n pathways... actually sound better organised...

[Grandpa]

Yeah.. nah. Ben Darwin has a personal interest in advancing his business that focusses on cohesion and he's doing well marketing the concept, but that vid is an annoying simplification of the myriad issues facing Australian rugby that serves only to promote his business. It's not an analytical piece.

Fuck Bin Darwun.

https://www.afr.com/rear-window/hamish- ... 925-p5e7ee

The Wallabies’ descent into national embarrassment territory on Monday morning means the knives are out for coach Eddie Jones, the moody gremlin of global sport.

Australia had their arses handed to them by Wales, inflicting the country’s largest loss in World Cup history. Or in the traditional Welsh: “ffwrch!”

Jones rightly remains the focal point of ire. But scrutiny must show up at the doorstop of Rugby Australia and its cast of administrators.


What, then, of the performance of Rugby Australia chairman Hamish McLennan? The Hammer’s blue-sky idea was to pilfer Jones. McLennan can’t be blamed for the veteran coach’s baffling selection decisions. He can cop it for signing a clearly past-it coach to a five-year contract on the eve of a World Cup.

You can imagine how it went down. Eddie comes around for dinner at the new Darling Point digs. A few chablis in, Hammer says he should come home. Save the Wallabies. He accepts on one condition, scanning around the $30 million trophy home: “Five years.”

Hammer has his guy! Lock it in, Eddie.

McLennan is a product of corporate Australia’s fail-up culture. After being part of the calamity at Channel Ten on behalf of Lachlan Murdoch, McLennan’s stunning career has soared. He now chairs not only Rugby Australia but occupies the top board seat at News Corp’s REA, media company ARN Media, and serves as deputy chairman at the little shop of horrors, Magellan Financial.

Three chairmanships. The Hammer is the east coast Richard Goyder. The very existence of the McLennans and Goyders – spread obviously too thin to actually provide adequate scrutiny for shareholders – proves the professional director class is taking the piss.

Set aside the Eddie shambles, McLennan’s rugby turnaround narrative hinges on Project Aurora, which proposes hawking off a slice of the sport to investors and private equity. That was supposed to raise $250 million. Jefferies star banker Michael Stock was tasked with finding investors to buy in.

What exactly is Stock offering up? We give you a claim to several years worth of ticket receipts and broadcast revenue to losing games, played in front of half-full stadiums. The Wallabies are going to get spanked 3-0 by the British Lions on home soil in 2025. But you and the lads can get a box on the halfway line.

Earlier this year, McLennan tapped former Wallabies flanker Phil Waugh to lead the turnaround. McLennan, graduate of the exclusive Sydney Church of England Grammar School, needed a CEO to execute the game’s vision and settled on ... another Shore boy.

Waugh was then given ample space in this newspaper to explain his “plan to save Australian rugby”. Along with trying to get PE interest and growing the game in western Sydney to fend off competition from competing codes, he had a neat idea.

“I love the concept of an old boys’ day at Allianz Stadium ... three back-to-back GPS [Great Public Schools] games at Allianz Stadium from 11am to 5pm, and you just make it a festival,” Waugh said.

The “save rugby” plan involves a “festival” of Riverview, King’s and Joeys? Phil, that’s not a plan, that’s a Betoota Advocate headline.

After the 2019 World Cup exit, no fewer than 11 former Wallabies captains wrote a letter expressing no confidence in then-CEO Raelene Castle. The group included Nick Farr-Jones, George Gregan, Michael Lynagh, and successfully agitated for Castle to fall on her sword.

The Wallabies are for the first time all but guaranteed to exit a World Cup without making it out of the group stage, strapped to a checked-out coach, with a tied-up chairman. Time to get out the stationery again, boys.

Matt Giteau, Matt Burke and Adam Ashley Cooper discuss what Australia needs to do... for once it's less humour and more serious talk...

set at 19.39 onwards...

[Sards]

Everyone needs to understand.....

The Stormers were the Kiwis plaything.....regular 60 pointers against them from most of the Kiwi teams......

The Stormers finally found a format that suited them....the first year.
Then they lost the second year....kicker
And we don't know where they are going to place the 3rd year......especially with no Ginger.


So take this with a pinch of salt. Ouboet doesn't miss having to lube his ass everytime the Stormers played a Kiwi team.

He is bragging because the Stormers won the competition once.

[OomStruisbaai]

Everyone needs to understand.....

The Stormers were the Kiwis plaything.....regular 60 pointers against them from most of the Kiwi teams......

The Stormers finally found a format that suited them....the first year.
Then they lost the second year....kicker
And we don't know where they are going to place the 3rd year......especially with no Ginger.


So take this with a pinch of salt. Ouboet doesn't miss having to lube his ass everytime the Stormers played a Kiwi team.

He is bragging because the Stormers won the competition once.

Sards stats has gone down the drain. The Stormers never lost by 60. Only in your dreams.

[Niegs]

Matt Giteau, Matt Burke and Adam Ashley Cooper discuss what Australia needs to do... for once it's less humour and more serious talk...

set at 19.39 onwards...

Sounded like Burke was onto something, which was even a bit contradictory to what AAC and Gits said, regarding the 'threat' from RL. The other two wanted to scale back to three teams to focus only on quality, giving the best a more concentrated environment. But Burke said that promising youngsters will get poached / opt for RL before they even get a look. Being a very late development sport, you'd want to keep more, wouldn't you? Not take the gamble on someone who looks good as a teen turning out to be a great (more likely not). There's also the old vets hanging on, for better or because they're on a contract, keeping the newbies out. So isn't five teams pretty good for that? Even more if SR is scrapped and there's, as someone said either here or on PR, a bigger pacific league focused more on the best state/provincial teams and PI/Japanese friends?

On that thread, I wondered what coaching is like. Why can't Australia, with its AIS and historically smart approaches to sport development, work out the why, why, and how of improving a national team that's been faltering steadily in the pro era. Or if they're not really, what are the Irelands and Frances doing that they can learn from?

[Slick]

Matt Giteau, Matt Burke and Adam Ashley Cooper discuss what Australia needs to do... for once it's less humour and more serious talk...

set at 19.39 onwards...

Sounded like Burke was onto something, which was even a bit contradictory to what AAC and Gits said, regarding the 'threat' from RL. The other two wanted to scale back to three teams to focus only on quality, giving the best a more concentrated environment. But Burke said that promising youngsters will get poached / opt for RL before they even get a look. Being a very late development sport, you'd want to keep more, wouldn't you? Not take the gamble on someone who looks good as a teen turning out to be a great (more likely not). There's also the old vets hanging on, for better or because they're on a contract, keeping the newbies out. So isn't five teams pretty good for that? Even more if SR is scrapped and there's, as someone said either here or on PR, a bigger pacific league focused more on the best state/provincial teams and PI/Japanese friends?

On that thread, I wondered what coaching is like. Why can't Australia, with its AIS and historically smart approaches to sport development, work out the why, why, and how of improving a national team that's been faltering steadily in the pro era. Or if they're not really, what are the Irelands and Frances doing that they can learn from?

Yeah, I agree. It was a pretty crap discussion to be honest, didn't seem like a great deal of thought had gone into it. At the end of the day it's going to come down to money and size. Kids can either set their sights on a decent career at one of 22 clubs or risk it on 1 of 3/5 clubs - as a young lad that's probably an easy choice. Maybe the ARU have to swallow a bit of pride and have a programme integrating the 20/21/22 years old that haven't made it into the league clubs onto Union. Maybe they already do? Whatever it is it has to be innovative because they just can't compete

[OomStruisbaai]

Its actually easy for the Wallabies. Get rid of their stupid overseas policy.

[Dogbert]

Nobody from the Borders is coming up to watch Edinburgh, and nobody from the North is going to watch Glasgow, believe me. In one case parochialism (people from Melrose wouldn't watch a Borders side if it played in Gala, so the idea of them coming to Edinburgh is heresy) and the other just distance. Borders and Caledonia ceased to exist more than 15 years ago, so improvement over the last ten is a realistic viewpoint.

I'm a Glasgow season ticket holder living in Aberdeen , I think I've missed less than half a dozen home games in the last ten years

Is Google telling me the truth when it says that’s a five hour round trip?

If so, hats off to you sir

Helps to have your son ( also a season ticket holder ) living and working in Glasgow who has a spare bedroom - so I rarely go down and back up the same day

[Grandpa]

Matt Giteau, Matt Burke and Adam Ashley Cooper discuss what Australia needs to do... for once it's less humour and more serious talk...

set at 19.39 onwards...

Sounded like Burke was onto something, which was even a bit contradictory to what AAC and Gits said, regarding the 'threat' from RL. The other two wanted to scale back to three teams to focus only on quality, giving the best a more concentrated environment. But Burke said that promising youngsters will get poached / opt for RL before they even get a look. Being a very late development sport, you'd want to keep more, wouldn't you? Not take the gamble on someone who looks good as a teen turning out to be a great (more likely not). There's also the old vets hanging on, for better or because they're on a contract, keeping the newbies out. So isn't five teams pretty good for that? Even more if SR is scrapped and there's, as someone said either here or on PR, a bigger pacific league focused more on the best state/provincial teams and PI/Japanese friends?

On that thread, I wondered what coaching is like. Why can't Australia, with its AIS and historically smart approaches to sport development, work out the why, why, and how of improving a national team that's been faltering steadily in the pro era. Or if they're not really, what are the Irelands and Frances doing that they can learn from?

Yeah, I agree. It was a pretty crap discussion to be honest, didn't seem like a great deal of thought had gone into it. At the end of the day it's going to come down to money and size. Kids can either set their sights on a decent career at one of 22 clubs or risk it on 1 of 3/5 clubs - as a young lad that's probably an easy choice. Maybe the ARU have to swallow a bit of pride and have a programme integrating the 20/21/22 years old that haven't made it into the league clubs onto Union. Maybe they already do? Whatever it is it has to be innovative because they just can't compete

Who runs the NRL in Australia? Or at least markets it? Maybe Rugby Australia should break the bank to entice them to Union... to help make them a more viable entity?

This idea doesn't sound too silly either...

Maybe the ARU have to swallow a bit of pride and have a programme integrating the 20/21/22 years old that haven't made it into the league clubs onto Union.

[Guy Smiley]

One of the many problems facing Australian rugby, and this has always been the case, is the sheer volume of outside voices clamouring to tell everyone what's going wrong. Most of those voices are ex players or coaches no longer part of the inner circle, all with their own loyalties and agendas informing their comments. There are entrenched vested interests at play and most of it is centred on the lucrative Sydney club scene... so may ex players and other firgures, for instance, came through the Randwick club.

These clowns see themselves as a sort of landed gentry within the game and work hard to keep themselves calling the shots. It was that sort of blundering that saw the Western Force frozen out through difficult funding and recruiting arrangements and ultimately sacrificed for the Melbourne Rebels... propped up heavily to hold a presence in AFL town while thousands of genuine rugby fans in Perth were cast aside and disenfranchised.

Australian rugby is crippled by parochialism and cronyism. Until or unless that is rooted out they've no hope of recovering... it's what got them into this mess.

[Line6 HXFX]

If rugby in Australia is just a posh boy elitist sport and for the privately educated, elitist snobs, ...why would most of the country be remotely interested?

"I know Chad lets go and cheer the overtly priviledged wankers who hate us, call us bludgers....and want to starve us and keep us in utter penury, so they can have a taxcut and to cut their inheritance taxes".


I often think all the working classes on the planet should support Wales, and we should wave and sing the red flag at matches.

[Slick]

If rugby in Australia is just a posh boy elitist sport and for the privately educated, elitist snobs, ...why would most of the country be remotely interested?

"I know Chad lets go and cheer the overtly priviledged wankers who hate us, call us bludgers....and want to starve us and keep us in utter penury, so they can have a taxcut and to cut their inheritance taxes".


I often think all the working classes on the planet should support Wales, and we should wave and sing the red flag at matches.

You joke, but maybe that is the only route available to them to get kids playing - targeting those middle class Aussie parents who baulk at the shit that goes on in league? Like football here. They are never going to grow it to be bigger than league or AFL so don't try,

[Torquemada 1420]

And how many U20s actually kick on as first-choice pros (beyond the first few years when their clubs give them a shot for all that investment), let alone become senior internationals.

Well, in France, a helluva lot and that goes back as far as these age grade RWCs started. This year Bielle-biarrey and Gailleton were pulled from the U20s to play in the national team. What's different in Fra is these guys have often already played club level before being selected at Ux level.

Now that'd be an interesting factor to look at. How many successful 'graduates' of a U20 team played at senior men's club level before and/or how much game time if most have? How many, by comparison, were only in age grade / academy / school sides and maybe a little 'isolated' from a higher level of play? I imagine the former happens more in France because of the greater number of clubs? (Also factoring in ProD2)

I'd say that was spot on. A good example would be the 2003 U21 RWC held in England. OTTOMH, from that Fre team, these guys made intl
- Nyanga
- Szarzewski
- Durand
- Fritz
- Grandclaude
and most of the others had pro careers.

[Tichtheid]

Bielle-Biarrey age 20 and a few months, 17 appearances for Bordeaux Begles, 3 France U20 caps and 5 full caps

Émilien Gailleton is a month younger, 15 appearances for Agen, 24 for Pau, 16 U20 caps and 1 full cap

Baptiste Jauneau, age 19, my standout player in the U20 RWC - 24 appearances for Clermont 16 U 20 caps

There are a good few others in the French U20s with lots of senior experience, it's little wonder they are so strong.

[OomStruisbaai]

Well that prove my point. France winning the last three JWC's.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

One of the many problems facing Australian rugby, and this has always been the case, is the sheer volume of outside voices clamouring to tell everyone what's going wrong. Most of those voices are ex players or coaches no longer part of the inner circle, all with their own loyalties and agendas informing their comments. There are entrenched vested interests at play and most of it is centred on the lucrative Sydney club scene... so may ex players and other firgures, for instance, came through the Randwick club.

These clowns see themselves as a sort of landed gentry within the game and work hard to keep themselves calling the shots. It was that sort of blundering that saw the Western Force frozen out through difficult funding and recruiting arrangements and ultimately sacrificed for the Melbourne Rebels... propped up heavily to hold a presence in AFL town while thousands of genuine rugby fans in Perth were cast aside and disenfranchised.

Australian rugby is crippled by parochialism and cronyism. Until or unless that is rooted out they've no hope of recovering... it's what got them into this mess.

Even then their domestic clubs have access to some fine training facilities and playing stadia, the national side plays pretty much exclusively against their 1 nations, and both club and country play in what on a global scale would be very attractive tournaments, and they've a Lions tour on the way to screw over England and some other nations to help boost the Aussies, and then some home world cups

As messes go it's not the worst.

[Jethro]

From what I can tell, the tldr is: Australia in decline, Foster sucks.

That’s really it.

Yup. Australia dropped the ball following the 03 RWC. The public support for the Wallabies building up to that was phenomenal. I was living in Perth, WA which is an AFL mad town. The number of Wallabies jerseys worn on weekends was incredible. They hosted games all over the country, including Tasmania. The public were right into it. Under John O'Neill, the then ARU poured money into Super franchises and huge salaries for rugby league converts like Wendell Sailor, Lote Tuqiri and Mat Rogers following the RWC and ignored any notion of putting development funding into schools or clubs outside of the established NSW and Qld pathways.

I was saying as soon as Rugby Australia, ARU back then, started creating additional Supe teams it wasn't going to end well. And as day follows night the usual call from a former Wallaby great, this time Tim Horan.

Australian rugby is in a constant battle with the NRL and the AFL, and the Wallabies’ failure will make it harder to attract fans and backers to the code.

Rugby Australia is also struggling financially, and Horan said that combination of factors meant that New Zealand had to come to the rescue of their “Anzac brothers” in the next four years.

Source: stuff.co.nz

This has been the constant refrain for well over a decade now, anyone remember the one off test played a couple of decades ago to pump finance into ARU coffers.

Naturally Tim Horan doesn't believe that RA should live within its means, or reduce the artificial supe teams. Next decision by Rugby Australia of course will be calls to expansion to such rugby heartlands as Adelaide, Newcastle, or Broken Hill.

Rugby Australia lost a lot of support in the regions when the original ARC franchise announcements basically kept the status quo in place rather than hearing from the grass roots.

I'm in the Newcastle region, rugby exists, but not so you would ever hear about it in the face of overwhelming NRL support.

[Ymx]

[OomStruisbaai]

[Fonz]

Interesting (albeit depressing) posts on this thread regarding Aussie rugby, gents