NPR

Camroc2 wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:14 am

petej wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:47 am The European cups are a bit of a mess and lost a lot of interest. English rugby mostly due to covid and partly Saracens (pushing salary caps up and be able to run at a loss) is in a bad financial place. The RFU decision to destroy English youth pathway system has been disastrous. Trashing domestic rugby further will just lose support. The league is actually entertaining and competitive (unlike the national team).

Bad timing for the English rugby team to be bad as the English cricket team are decent and entertaining and the English football team is the best it has been in my lifetime* and should win 1 of the next 2 major tournaments.

*considerably better than the so called golden generation of
Beckham, Gerrard et al who were massively overrated.

Edit: these things are partly cyclical and we are just at the down point of a cycle.

PRL and McCafferty destroyed the HEC.

Remember they were going to have 5 main sponsors each paying what Heineken at the time were paying ?

Instead they ended up with Heineken as the one main sponsor paying less than half of what it paid previously.

Have the accounts of the Swiss based Spiv Rugby (Europe) Ltd. ever been published ?

My only worry is the pressure CVC will put on the various URC unions in it's attempt to get the £ 230m it invested in English rugby back rather than wave bye-bye to it as it goes down the proverbial Swanee.

As I recall the Heineken cup proceeds were split by union not team competing. So you had it being multiples more valuable to Irish, Welsh and Scottish regions than it was to English and French clubs.

I'm sure camroc would accept being paid a 1/2 of what a colleague was being paid for the same job with good grace.

petej wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:49 am

Camroc2 wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:14 am

petej wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:47 am The European cups are a bit of a mess and lost a lot of interest. English rugby mostly due to covid and partly Saracens (pushing salary caps up and be able to run at a loss) is in a bad financial place. The RFU decision to destroy English youth pathway system has been disastrous. Trashing domestic rugby further will just lose support. The league is actually entertaining and competitive (unlike the national team).

Bad timing for the English rugby team to be bad as the English cricket team are decent and entertaining and the English football team is the best it has been in my lifetime* and should win 1 of the next 2 major tournaments.

*considerably better than the so called golden generation of
Beckham, Gerrard et al who were massively overrated.

Edit: these things are partly cyclical and we are just at the down point of a cycle.

PRL and McCafferty destroyed the HEC.

Remember they were going to have 5 main sponsors each paying what Heineken at the time were paying ?

Instead they ended up with Heineken as the one main sponsor paying less than half of what it paid previously.

Have the accounts of the Swiss based Spiv Rugby (Europe) Ltd. ever been published ?

My only worry is the pressure CVC will put on the various URC unions in it's attempt to get the £ 230m it invested in English rugby back rather than wave bye-bye to it as it goes down the proverbial Swanee.

As I recall the Heineken cup proceeds were split by union not team competing. So you had it being multiples more valuable to Irish, Welsh and Scottish regions than it was to English and French clubs.

I'm sure camroc would accept being paid a 1/2 of what a colleague was being paid for the same job with good grace.

He doesn’t give a shit. If it’s English it’s bad, simple as.

KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:19 am

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:40 am

KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:34 am

Absolutely, they’ve rebuilt the European Cup several times to suit the English clubs, it would be no time at all before they started demanding the same in the league. Scottish teams would inevitably become second class in their own league (there’s only two of you and there’s ten of us, we bring in more money etc etc). That’s before you get to the issue with club teams vs Union run teams; none of the other union run teams have much interest in each other’s players (outside in-union transfers), the English clubs would try to asset strip the best players from other teams almost immediately. We could end in a situation where the Irish for instance have to ban players playing in their own league from playing for their country to stop the exodus. It would be madness.

Hysterical nonsense. There's enough to consider this a bad idea without just making shit up.

You might disagree but that doesn’t make it hysterical. The best English teams will inevitably have more money and will recruit the best welsh, Scottish and probably Irish players. Has it escaped your notice that our best players invariably leave Scotland already? Do you think that will increase or decrease in frequency when our players are directly up against theirs on a regular basis? Do you think it will end up with players moving earlier or later when their quality is seen prior to hitting the international scene? It is literally exactly what happens in football where the bigger market of the EPL cherry picks the best players, coaches, managers etc from Scotland.

It is utterly hysterical, founded on nothing.

Even before the three clubs collapsed last season there were 100 Premiership or academy players being released from contracts with no particular place to go. There is a glut of available English talent out there in the market and will be for quite some time.

The RFU currently offers bonus payments to any club that averages 16 EQP players in their matchday squads over the season. No club is in a financial position to be ignoring that income, they're not suddenly going to be filling their ranks with non EQPs. It's why some of them get a bit annoyed about the Welsh and Scots sniffing around lads who're dual qualified, it can really fuck up their calculations to qualify for the RFU money.

A handful of Scotland's best players leave the Scottish teams for the Premiership. Currently there's Russell (who came over from France), Adam Hastings and Jonny Grey. Matt Scott and Sean Maitland aren't really in the Scottish frame anymore.Cam Redpath and Chris Harris didn't leave a Scottish teams to join the Prem.

South Africa is the only URC nation with a significant number of players in the Premiership and I see no reason why that would change. Italian and Welsh players haven't suddenly become more attractive propositions, English clubs won't be able to outspend the Irish for players it'd be worth trying to poach.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:53 am

petej wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:49 am

Camroc2 wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:14 am

PRL and McCafferty destroyed the HEC.

Remember they were going to have 5 main sponsors each paying what Heineken at the time were paying ?

Instead they ended up with Heineken as the one main sponsor paying less than half of what it paid previously.

Have the accounts of the Swiss based Spiv Rugby (Europe) Ltd. ever been published ?

My only worry is the pressure CVC will put on the various URC unions in it's attempt to get the £ 230m it invested in English rugby back rather than wave bye-bye to it as it goes down the proverbial Swanee.

As I recall the Heineken cup proceeds were split by union not team competing. So you had it being multiples more valuable to Irish, Welsh and Scottish regions than it was to English and French clubs.

I'm sure camroc would accept being paid a 1/2 of what a colleague was being paid for the same job with good grace.

He doesn’t give a shit. If it’s English it’s bad, simple as.

It was more of an explanation post for readers of the thread than a response to Camroc2. Camroc2 was always very tiresome about clubs being bad and unions being good based mostly on the irfu being competent while totally ignoring that the rfu was massively incompetent.

petej wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:49 am

Camroc2 wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:14 am

petej wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:47 am The European cups are a bit of a mess and lost a lot of interest. English rugby mostly due to covid and partly Saracens (pushing salary caps up and be able to run at a loss) is in a bad financial place. The RFU decision to destroy English youth pathway system has been disastrous. Trashing domestic rugby further will just lose support. The league is actually entertaining and competitive (unlike the national team).

Bad timing for the English rugby team to be bad as the English cricket team are decent and entertaining and the English football team is the best it has been in my lifetime* and should win 1 of the next 2 major tournaments.

*considerably better than the so called golden generation of
Beckham, Gerrard et al who were massively overrated.

Edit: these things are partly cyclical and we are just at the down point of a cycle.

PRL and McCafferty destroyed the HEC.

Remember they were going to have 5 main sponsors each paying what Heineken at the time were paying ?

Instead they ended up with Heineken as the one main sponsor paying less than half of what it paid previously.

Have the accounts of the Swiss based Spiv Rugby (Europe) Ltd. ever been published ?

My only worry is the pressure CVC will put on the various URC unions in it's attempt to get the £ 230m it invested in English rugby back rather than wave bye-bye to it as it goes down the proverbial Swanee.

As I recall the Heineken cup proceeds were split by union not team competing. So you had it being multiples more valuable to Irish, Welsh and Scottish regions than it was to English and French clubs.

I'm sure camroc would accept being paid a 1/2 of what a colleague was being paid for the same job with good grace.

I remember the HEC being set up by the unions with each country having the right to nominate a set number of teams. This pre-dated the setting up of the first Celtic League by 5 or 6 years. When the Celtic League was set up by the various unions this persisted until the English and French, but particularly the English, started complaining about, in particular, Irish teams qualifying for the HEC without ending up in the first 3 or 4 places in the league. This English whinge persisted for a time and at the next renegotiation the laws pertaining to a union competition were changed to something like the first 6 in the Celtic league automatically qualifying, but every country having at least one qualifier.

And that's what happened, so a new English whinge arose saying it wasn't fair that the Magners (as it had now became) had 7 qualifiers whilst the English league only had 3/4; despite the HEC being originally set up based on country qualification.. And this whine continued to the extent that the English spivs set up a rival organisation, with a rival competition for which they sold rights that they didn't hold. The outcome of this was the RFU/Scots/Welsh blinking and so Spiv Rugby (Europe) ltd based out of Switzerland set up, an essentially new competition set up, with half the English league qualifying for it automatically. And, guess what, it turned out that the English clubs, beyond 2 or 3 turned out to be crap and became whipping boys in the competition. And another whinge arose to change the format, because the format, obviously, favoured the Irish, and that's what happened.

And the net result of all that English whinging is that we now have a competition that no one is interested in until it gets to quarter-final stage, with lower sponsorship than it had a decade ago, a format no one likes, and the finals held as early as possible so as not to interfere with the run in of a crap English league.

So as I said, please fúck off from interfering with the URC.

petej wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:08 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:53 am

petej wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:49 am
As I recall the Heineken cup proceeds were split by union not team competing. So you had it being multiples more valuable to Irish, Welsh and Scottish regions than it was to English and French clubs.

I'm sure camroc would accept being paid a 1/2 of what a colleague was being paid for the same job with good grace.

He doesn’t give a shit. If it’s English it’s bad, simple as.

It was more of an explanation post for readers of the thread than a response to Camroc2. Camroc2 was always very tiresome about clubs being bad and unions being good based mostly on the irfu being competent while totally ignoring that the rfu was massively incompetent.

Well in that vein it should be noted that while funds were distributed along national/union lines, that split was not even. France and England got about 60% of the funds between them (and tbf many argued even at that it was not equitable - there were certainly some legitimate arguments by the English clubs). So saying English clubs were only getting half what others were is not exactly a fair presentation of the facts either.

Cammy is going to Cammy, and while the RFU may well be a bunch of incompetents, the PRL crowd have clearly demonstrated to be a match for them, all while simultaneously setting fire to their relationships with their external partners.

His accusation that PRL destroyed the HEC is factually correct, both technically and proven over the course of time in its loss of prestige and earnings (we have to presume on that last point as the transparent financial reporting has disappeared and we've had zero info since the change - but it is a very safe presumption). Though the French now stealing a weekend and not giving it back is what will prevent it from ever recovering to its former glory (and sure, the Saffas entry as well).

It takes two to tango, but it's certainly not helping the situation when your dance partner is wearing clown shoes.

This thread

I think it's a great idea.

I have a feeling the TNT situation is more of a driver for this, than CVC.

This is the last year of BT/TNTs contract with Premiership Rugby, & TNT is already looking for some of their money back, now that the league has been reduced to 10 teams.

Premiership Rugby clubs are facing further financial problems with their main broadcast partner BT Sport demanding a multi-million pound rebate following confirmation that the competition will shrink to 10 teams next season.

Mail Sport has learned that preliminary discussions over BT's compensation demands began after Wasps and Worcester were kicked out of the Gallagher Premiership earlier in the season and negotiations are now expected to intensify after London Irish's demise was confirmed on Tuesday.

BT have one season remaining on a three-year deal worth £110million with Premiership Rugby, but have lost almost one-quarter of the clubs who were due to compete, which they are arguing has significantly reduced the value of the TV contract.

The broadcaster's frustration is compounded by the fact that they will be rebranded as TNT Sports this summer after being bought by Warner Brothers Discovery, so are conscious about having compelling products to attract and retain customers.

Premiership Rugby are sympathetic to BT's position, but will fight hard to limit the size of the rebate, as many of their remaining 10 clubs are beset by financial problems.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... nsion.html

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:38 pm I have a feeling the TNT situation is more of a driver for this, than CVC.

This is the last year of BT/TNTs contract with Premiership Rugby, & TNT is already looking for some of their money back, now that the league has been reduced to 10 teams.

Premiership Rugby clubs are facing further financial problems with their main broadcast partner BT Sport demanding a multi-million pound rebate following confirmation that the competition will shrink to 10 teams next season.

Mail Sport has learned that preliminary discussions over BT's compensation demands began after Wasps and Worcester were kicked out of the Gallagher Premiership earlier in the season and negotiations are now expected to intensify after London Irish's demise was confirmed on Tuesday.

BT have one season remaining on a three-year deal worth £110million with Premiership Rugby, but have lost almost one-quarter of the clubs who were due to compete, which they are arguing has significantly reduced the value of the TV contract.

The broadcaster's frustration is compounded by the fact that they will be rebranded as TNT Sports this summer after being bought by Warner Brothers Discovery, so are conscious about having compelling products to attract and retain customers.

Premiership Rugby are sympathetic to BT's position, but will fight hard to limit the size of the rebate, as many of their remaining 10 clubs are beset by financial problems.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... nsion.html

I'd have more sympathy with the TNT position if they'd actually showed all the games, but with their current broadcst schedule losing three clubs won't actually impact the number of games they broadcast over the season.

If they wanted to attract or retain customers showing all thev available matches would be a start. Ridiculous than an American or Australian customer gets the option and domestic don't.

Still, PRL have zero leverage. Last time they tried to shop themselves around no one bit and they had to slink back to BT for no increase on the existing deal.

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:38 pm I have a feeling the TNT situation is more of a driver for this, than CVC.

This is the last year of BT/TNTs contract with Premiership Rugby, & TNT is already looking for some of their money back, now that the league has been reduced to 10 teams.

Premiership Rugby clubs are facing further financial problems with their main broadcast partner BT Sport demanding a multi-million pound rebate following confirmation that the competition will shrink to 10 teams next season.

Mail Sport has learned that preliminary discussions over BT's compensation demands began after Wasps and Worcester were kicked out of the Gallagher Premiership earlier in the season and negotiations are now expected to intensify after London Irish's demise was confirmed on Tuesday.

BT have one season remaining on a three-year deal worth £110million with Premiership Rugby, but have lost almost one-quarter of the clubs who were due to compete, which they are arguing has significantly reduced the value of the TV contract.

The broadcaster's frustration is compounded by the fact that they will be rebranded as TNT Sports this summer after being bought by Warner Brothers Discovery, so are conscious about having compelling products to attract and retain customers.

Premiership Rugby are sympathetic to BT's position, but will fight hard to limit the size of the rebate, as many of their remaining 10 clubs are beset by financial problems.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... nsion.html

The driver of this is CVC with tv money in mind. Both leagues took their money and now take their chances. No one has any moral high ground and we’ll get the format CVC think is going to give them the best ROI. I know where I’d put my money

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:46 pm
Still, PRL have zero leverage. Last time they tried to shop themselves around no one bit and they had to slink back to BT for no increase on the existing deal.

Wasn't that around the time of the Sarries salary debacle and the league wasn't looking so rosy in any boardrooms?

Sandstorm wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:05 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:46 pm
Still, PRL have zero leverage. Last time they tried to shop themselves around no one bit and they had to slink back to BT for no increase on the existing deal.

Wasn't that around the time of the Sarries salary debacle and the league wasn't looking so rosy in any boardrooms?

I can't really remember, but it would certainly be a very PRL thing to do to bullishly turn down BT re-upping their deal with a minor increase while all that was going on.

Some back of a cigarette packet numbers on CVC.

They bought a 27% stake for £230m in Premiership Rugby in 2018.
They bought a 28% stake for £120m in the URC in 2020.
When CVC made its purchases Premiership Rugby was valued at £852m and the URC was valued at £429m. A combined valuation of £1.281bn.

Premiership TV rights were sold for £110m over three years (£36.6m per year) in 2021, this was a downgrade from the previous £40m per year deal.
URC TV rights were sold for £55m per year in 2021 (the first year of URC), up from £25m per year when it was the Pro14.
The current combined income from TV rights is around £90m per year.

There's other income to consider, gates/hospitality/merchandise/sponsorship, but this is back of a cigarette packet and how much of that value is in the club rather than the competitions is difficult to separate (does CVC get part of the gate money?).

The URC numbers look more healthy because they paid less and the TV revenue has more than doubled.

Having a stab at valuing both competitions combined, using TV money as the basis for a times-revenue valuation and doubling it to account for other revenue that goes to the competition owner (sponsorship etc) we're looking at x7, which would be high if it were the earnings but it's revenue.

The only way I can see for CVC numbers to stack up is if TV revenue grows like it has with the URC, for obvious reasons this is unlikely (URC growth came from adding a new market). Top 14 TV rights were sold for €113.6m (£99m) per year in 2021, that's a comp with a simple structure that's a 26 match regular season for each team and knockouts for the qualifiers. £99m per season should be seen as the ceiling, and that's where the Prem and URC basically already are. If SA teams are removed, that creates a £30m hole in the TV rights (maybe more the Cheetahs and Kings were in Pro14).

On these numbers without adding new markets to get explosive growth, it just looks like CVC overpaid. They made billions from F1, but the short version of how they did it is creating bidding wars for hosting rights and sponsorship rights, the demand for rugby isn't anywhere near as much.

Were the CVC deals not time limited as well?

The £55 for Urc is spilt between 16 teams, the £36 million for prem across twelve. So broadly per team it's about the same.

But what the spivs are eyeing up is they think that the relative value of some teams is more than others, both in Urc and their own league. So they reckon they can eventually cut out the chaff and increase the per team revenue by destroying most of Scots, Welsh and Italian rugby.

Biffer wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:07 pm Were the CVC deals not time limited as well?

The £55 for Urc is spilt between 16 teams, the £36 million for prem across twelve. So broadly per team it's about the same.

But what the spivs are eyeing up is they think that the relative value of some teams is more than others, both in Urc and their own league. So they reckon they can eventually cut out the chaff and increase the per team revenue by destroying most of Scots, Welsh and Italian rugby.

I think the 6N deal was for 5 years, not sure about the rest as they bought an actual stake

Biffer wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:07 pm So they reckon they can eventually cut out the chaff and increase the per team revenue by destroying most of Scots, Welsh and Italian rugby.

The problem with any combined league idea, where every team plays against each other home/away on the same log (Top 14 format), is they all involve cutting teams to make it possible and because of the amount of teams England has that means English teams too. But CVC paid double for the Prem compared to the URC, cutting any Prem sides means writing off more value than cutting URC sides. But they would have to do that to have the most valuable format, home/away with knockouts. A 16 team competition using that format would have 33 rounds of matches without counting the byes, obviously to shorten the length of the competition (how many supporters would make it through 33 rounds?) more teams would have to be cut.

If the plan was to axe Scots/Welsh/Italians to create such a format which included SA sides, it wouldn't work because SA sides would be touring the UK/Ireland for over 2 months. Our players always said one of the downsides of Super Rugby was the hit to family life of being away for a 5 week period. That format could work if the Italian and SA sides were cut, but 4 to 6 sides additional sides from the remaining pool of 10 Celtic and 10 English sides would also need to be cut after that. Without SA sides it'll also start on day 1 by losing a third of the TV revenue, but on the other hand surviving URC sides would get a bump in home matches (up from 9 to 13?).

If a single league isn't happening, then various conference formats end up much like what exists already, just worse if they get it wrong. Can't see any of those boosting TV revenue.

From an SA point of view we could just play an expanded Currie Cup on our own, but it wouldn't expose us to foreign teams and would probably need foreign guest teams to stop it getting boring. Losing teams from Wales/Scotland/Italy erodes a lot of the point in the URC for us.

_Os_ wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:57 pm Some back of a cigarette packet numbers on CVC.

They bought a 27% stake for £230m in Premiership Rugby in 2018.
They bought a 28% stake for £120m in the URC in 2020.
When CVC made its purchases Premiership Rugby was valued at £852m and the URC was valued at £429m. A combined valuation of £1.281bn.

Premiership TV rights were sold for £110m over three years (£36.6m per year) in 2021, this was a downgrade from the previous £40m per year deal.
URC TV rights were sold for £55m per year in 2021 (the first year of URC), up from £25m per year when it was the Pro14.
The current combined income from TV rights is around £90m per year.

There's other income to consider, gates/hospitality/merchandise/sponsorship, but this is back of a cigarette packet and how much of that value is in the club rather than the competitions is difficult to separate (does CVC get part of the gate money?).

The URC numbers look more healthy because they paid less and the TV revenue has more than doubled.

Having a stab at valuing both competitions combined, using TV money as the basis for a times-revenue valuation and doubling it to account for other revenue that goes to the competition owner (sponsorship etc) we're looking at x7, which would be high if it were the earnings but it's revenue.

The only way I can see for CVC numbers to stack up is if TV revenue grows like it has with the URC, for obvious reasons this is unlikely (URC growth came from adding a new market). Top 14 TV rights were sold for €113.6m (£99m) per year in 2021, that's a comp with a simple structure that's a 26 match regular season for each team and knockouts for the qualifiers. £99m per season should be seen as the ceiling, and that's where the Prem and URC basically already are. If SA teams are removed, that creates a £30m hole in the TV rights (maybe more the Cheetahs and Kings were in Pro14).

On these numbers without adding new markets to get explosive growth, it just looks like CVC overpaid. They made billions from F1, but the short version of how they did it is creating bidding wars for hosting rights and sponsorship rights, the demand for rugby isn't anywhere near as much.

CVC get a proportion of any profits made by Celtic Rugby DAC (URC) and Premier Rugby Holdings LLP (Premiership). Essentially TV monies and sponsorship at the league level. They don't own a share of any of the teams playing in these leagues so don't get a share of anything generated directly by these entities.

If CVC have overpaid and can't improve the commercial performance then everyone is in trouble. The constituent clubs / unions have had a short term cash boost but if the money generated by the league doesn't increase then the clubs' / unions' income from this source is down 27% each season in perpetuity.

Slick wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:27 pm

Biffer wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:07 pm Were the CVC deals not time limited as well?

The £55 for Urc is spilt between 16 teams, the £36 million for prem across twelve. So broadly per team it's about the same.

But what the spivs are eyeing up is they think that the relative value of some teams is more than others, both in Urc and their own league. So they reckon they can eventually cut out the chaff and increase the per team revenue by destroying most of Scots, Welsh and Italian rugby.

I think the 6N deal was for 5 years, not sure about the rest as they bought an actual stake

Payment was over 5 years with some performance related elements but the share they've acquired permanently belongs to CVC until they decide to sell - albeit the other owners (the unions) reportedly have some say on who it can be sold to.

Biffer wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:07 pm Were the CVC deals not time limited as well?

The £55 for Urc is spilt between 16 teams, the £36 million for prem across twelve. So broadly per team it's about the same.

But what the spivs are eyeing up is they think that the relative value of some teams is more than others, both in Urc and their own league. So they reckon they can eventually cut out the chaff and increase the per team revenue by destroying most of Scots, Welsh and Italian rugby.

Even if they'd like to get games like Leinster v Leicester on TV more regularly, cutting sides adrift doesn't really make sense in terms of generating revenuefor CVC. There's no way going from 2 separate comps to a single comp with 2 tiers is going to generate the same level of income, particularly if it hammers specific markets - even if they are the smaller ones.

If something was to come of the latest rumours then the Welsh linking up with the remaining Premiership teams would seem to make most sense, whether that's moving into a new competition or absorbing the English into another URC conference on the other side of Ireland + Italy + Scotland + South Africa.

topofthemoon wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:39 pm

Biffer wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:07 pm Were the CVC deals not time limited as well?

The £55 for Urc is spilt between 16 teams, the £36 million for prem across twelve. So broadly per team it's about the same.

But what the spivs are eyeing up is they think that the relative value of some teams is more than others, both in Urc and their own league. So they reckon they can eventually cut out the chaff and increase the per team revenue by destroying most of Scots, Welsh and Italian rugby.

Even if they'd like to get games like Leinster v Leicester on TV more regularly, cutting sides adrift doesn't really make sense in terms of generating revenuefor CVC. There's no way going from 2 separate comps to a single comp with 2 tiers is going to generate the same level of income, particularly if it hammers specific markets - even if they are the smaller ones.

If something was to come of the latest rumours then the Welsh linking up with the remaining Premiership teams would seem to make most sense, whether that's moving into a new competition or absorbing the English into another URC conference on the other side of Ireland + Italy + Scotland + South Africa.

I know that and you know that. The spivs don't.

South Africa have to buy their participation in the NH competitions.
R365

Those participation costs – plus the responsibility of bearing the international travel and accommodation costs of the SA teams – amounted to R330m in 2022.

“The continued investment in the URC and EPCR competitions is essential as we carve our way to full membership and shareholding, even though the financial aspect of this pathway is hurting us in the short term,” said Mark Alexander, president of SA Rugby.

“The long-term goal and returns that will come will validate this position, both from financial and high-performance points of view.

“Our participation in the URC and EPCR happened in quick succession and came at a significant cost to SA Rugby, but the commercial opportunities to be realised within the next two to three years will render the competitions profitable and strengthen the financial sustainability of South African rugby.”

Pretty sure we are well on our way in the URC.

The prerequisite for any discussions involving PRL is Nigel Wray, Bruce Craig, and Mark McCafferty being tarred and feathered, then horsewhipped through the streets before being put in stocks and pelted with rotten fruit until they publicly admitted they ruined the Heineken Cup through their own ignorance, arrogance, and greed. Then we can sit down, listen to what PRL have to say, and politely tell them to go fuck themselves.

Biffer wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:35 am

topofthemoon wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:39 pm

Biffer wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:07 pm Were the CVC deals not time limited as well?

The £55 for Urc is spilt between 16 teams, the £36 million for prem across twelve. So broadly per team it's about the same.

But what the spivs are eyeing up is they think that the relative value of some teams is more than others, both in Urc and their own league. So they reckon they can eventually cut out the chaff and increase the per team revenue by destroying most of Scots, Welsh and Italian rugby.

Even if they'd like to get games like Leinster v Leicester on TV more regularly, cutting sides adrift doesn't really make sense in terms of generating revenuefor CVC. There's no way going from 2 separate comps to a single comp with 2 tiers is going to generate the same level of income, particularly if it hammers specific markets - even if they are the smaller ones.

If something was to come of the latest rumours then the Welsh linking up with the remaining Premiership teams would seem to make most sense, whether that's moving into a new competition or absorbing the English into another URC conference on the other side of Ireland + Italy + Scotland + South Africa.

I know that and you know that. The spivs don't.

Just imagining stuff and using the word spiv doesn't make it true, you know

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:32 am

KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:19 am

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:40 am

Hysterical nonsense. There's enough to consider this a bad idea without just making shit up.

You might disagree but that doesn’t make it hysterical. The best English teams will inevitably have more money and will recruit the best welsh, Scottish and probably Irish players. Has it escaped your notice that our best players invariably leave Scotland already? Do you think that will increase or decrease in frequency when our players are directly up against theirs on a regular basis? Do you think it will end up with players moving earlier or later when their quality is seen prior to hitting the international scene? It is literally exactly what happens in football where the bigger market of the EPL cherry picks the best players, coaches, managers etc from Scotland.

SPL is surely a poor example as it is a separate league. There’s a decent chance the old firm + Aberdeen + Hearts and Hibs would be much more attractive investment opportunities if they were in the English set up a la Wrexham, Cardiff etc

It’s possible they would be, but the price would be a total loss of identity. Thanks, I’ve got no interest in watching Hearts play against League One English teams, and that’s probably where we would get dumped, at least at first. The club is bigger than that, and in order to avail yourself of the riches further up the English tree you first have to get there. And I’d probably never see us play in Europe again.

And that’s before we even get onto the fact that a unified league would almost certainly lead to renewed calls for a unified UK football team, which would be the actual end of the world.

topofthemoon wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:21 pm

_Os_ wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:57 pm Some back of a cigarette packet numbers on CVC.

They bought a 27% stake for £230m in Premiership Rugby in 2018.
They bought a 28% stake for £120m in the URC in 2020.
When CVC made its purchases Premiership Rugby was valued at £852m and the URC was valued at £429m. A combined valuation of £1.281bn.

Premiership TV rights were sold for £110m over three years (£36.6m per year) in 2021, this was a downgrade from the previous £40m per year deal.
URC TV rights were sold for £55m per year in 2021 (the first year of URC), up from £25m per year when it was the Pro14.
The current combined income from TV rights is around £90m per year.

There's other income to consider, gates/hospitality/merchandise/sponsorship, but this is back of a cigarette packet and how much of that value is in the club rather than the competitions is difficult to separate (does CVC get part of the gate money?).

The URC numbers look more healthy because they paid less and the TV revenue has more than doubled.

Having a stab at valuing both competitions combined, using TV money as the basis for a times-revenue valuation and doubling it to account for other revenue that goes to the competition owner (sponsorship etc) we're looking at x7, which would be high if it were the earnings but it's revenue.

The only way I can see for CVC numbers to stack up is if TV revenue grows like it has with the URC, for obvious reasons this is unlikely (URC growth came from adding a new market). Top 14 TV rights were sold for €113.6m (£99m) per year in 2021, that's a comp with a simple structure that's a 26 match regular season for each team and knockouts for the qualifiers. £99m per season should be seen as the ceiling, and that's where the Prem and URC basically already are. If SA teams are removed, that creates a £30m hole in the TV rights (maybe more the Cheetahs and Kings were in Pro14).

On these numbers without adding new markets to get explosive growth, it just looks like CVC overpaid. They made billions from F1, but the short version of how they did it is creating bidding wars for hosting rights and sponsorship rights, the demand for rugby isn't anywhere near as much.

CVC get a proportion of any profits made by Celtic Rugby DAC (URC) and Premier Rugby Holdings LLP (Premiership). Essentially TV monies and sponsorship at the league level. They don't own a share of any of the teams playing in these leagues so don't get a share of anything generated directly by these entities.

If CVC have overpaid and can't improve the commercial performance then everyone is in trouble. The constituent clubs / unions have had a short term cash boost but if the money generated by the league doesn't increase then the clubs' / unions' income from this source is down 27% each season in perpetuity.

I'd forgotten about that 27%, it's a killer

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:07 am

Biffer wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:35 am

topofthemoon wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:39 pm
Even if they'd like to get games like Leinster v Leicester on TV more regularly, cutting sides adrift doesn't really make sense in terms of generating revenuefor CVC. There's no way going from 2 separate comps to a single comp with 2 tiers is going to generate the same level of income, particularly if it hammers specific markets - even if they are the smaller ones.

If something was to come of the latest rumours then the Welsh linking up with the remaining Premiership teams would seem to make most sense, whether that's moving into a new competition or absorbing the English into another URC conference on the other side of Ireland + Italy + Scotland + South Africa.

I know that and you know that. The spivs don't.

Just imagining stuff and using the word spiv doesn't make it true, you know

Who is this spivs? The Irish use that word a lot.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:49 am

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:07 am

Biffer wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:35 am

I know that and you know that. The spivs don't.

Just imagining stuff and using the word spiv doesn't make it true, you know

Who is this spivs? The Irish use that word a lot.

Spiv: a man, typically a flashy dresser, who makes a living by disreputable dealings.

They think it's edgy and amusing!

OomStruisbaai wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:49 am

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:07 am

Biffer wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:35 am

I know that and you know that. The spivs don't.

Just imagining stuff and using the word spiv doesn't make it true, you know

Who is this spivs? The Irish use that word a lot.

They use it to describe the owners of the Premiership clubs and leadership of PRL. Spiv essentially means a flashy, but dodgy businessman.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:49 am

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:07 am

Biffer wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:35 am

I know that and you know that. The spivs don't.

Just imagining stuff and using the word spiv doesn't make it true, you know

Who is this spivs? The Irish use that word a lot.

It's in reference to the businessmen who own the English premiership rugby teams, some of the teams have gone on to a consortium type model, where no one person owns the whole club, but it's essentially still a private ownership model as opposed to the RFU owning and controlling the clubs.

There has been a lot of bad blood over the years, it's perceived outside of England that these clubs have ridden roughshod over the rest of Europe to suit their own objectives, they have tried various ways to change the European competitions to make it more suited to their purpose.

What it looks like from outside of England is that now the clubs are starting to go under these "spivs" are looking to be bailed out by the other countries' clubs, the same ones they demanded accept their changes to the Euro comps.

A spiv is someone like a dodgy used car salesman.


edit, I'm a slow typist, sock beat me to it.

Tichtheid wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 10:04 am A spiv is someone like a dodgy used car salesman.

SaintK wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:52 am

OomStruisbaai wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:49 am

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:07 am

Just imagining stuff and using the word spiv doesn't make it true, you know

Who is this spivs? The Irish use that word a lot.

Spiv: a man, typically a flashy dresser, who makes a living by disreputable dealings.

They think it's edgy and amusing!

Just accurate shorthand and more polite than wankers

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:07 am

Biffer wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:35 am

topofthemoon wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:39 pm
Even if they'd like to get games like Leinster v Leicester on TV more regularly, cutting sides adrift doesn't really make sense in terms of generating revenuefor CVC. There's no way going from 2 separate comps to a single comp with 2 tiers is going to generate the same level of income, particularly if it hammers specific markets - even if they are the smaller ones.

If something was to come of the latest rumours then the Welsh linking up with the remaining Premiership teams would seem to make most sense, whether that's moving into a new competition or absorbing the English into another URC conference on the other side of Ireland + Italy + Scotland + South Africa.

I know that and you know that. The spivs don't.

Just imagining stuff and using the word spiv doesn't make it true, you know

So in what way would this grow overall revenue across top level rugby then?

Biffer wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 11:05 am

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:07 am

Biffer wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:35 am

I know that and you know that. The spivs don't.

Just imagining stuff and using the word spiv doesn't make it true, you know

So in what way would this grow overall revenue across top level rugby then?

I'm saying the accusation that the "spivs" are trying to get rid of other nations clubs is ludicrous, and on top of that the idea that an English and Welsh league brings any material benefits is also nuts.

I don't want to have to point out the obvious but you seem to have misunderstood that it's representatives of these leagues discussing things. It's not PRL making demands. It's especially not some sort of hostile takeover where the perfidious English are attempting to destroy foreign clubs. Enough with the bizarre fever dreams already.

I'm totally on board with the opinion that the whole idea is shit, but coming up with shit ideas is not a specifically English problem. The Saffers being in the URC is shit, them being in European competition is even more shit, and that was nothing to do with us. Pretending your blazers and bean counters are somehow morally superior and better rugby men is just plain daft, and it makes actual discussion of this stuff almost impossible - you start to sound like camroc and that's a death knell for reason.

Yr Alban wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:28 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:32 am

KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:19 am

You might disagree but that doesn’t make it hysterical. The best English teams will inevitably have more money and will recruit the best welsh, Scottish and probably Irish players. Has it escaped your notice that our best players invariably leave Scotland already? Do you think that will increase or decrease in frequency when our players are directly up against theirs on a regular basis? Do you think it will end up with players moving earlier or later when their quality is seen prior to hitting the international scene? It is literally exactly what happens in football where the bigger market of the EPL cherry picks the best players, coaches, managers etc from Scotland.

SPL is surely a poor example as it is a separate league. There’s a decent chance the old firm + Aberdeen + Hearts and Hibs would be much more attractive investment opportunities if they were in the English set up a la Wrexham, Cardiff etc

It’s possible they would be, but the price would be a total loss of identity. Thanks, I’ve got no interest in watching Hearts play against League One English teams, and that’s probably where we would get dumped, at least at first. The club is bigger than that, and in order to avail yourself of the riches further up the English tree you first have to get there. And I’d probably never see us play in Europe again.

And that’s before we even get onto the fact that a unified league would almost certainly lead to renewed calls for a unified UK football team, which would be the actual end of the world.

I’m not suggesting it from where we are now (I also don’t care), but seems undeniable that Scottish football would be more investable and have a better chance of keeping its better players if it were part of the Football League structure, given we know Welsh clubs are.

Did'nt the english journalists say that the URC is a poor competition a few seasons back, now they want to join it

Can't believe the English journalists are demanding we join the URC