NPR

epwc wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 9:54 pm You know that’s not from the Koran don’t you?

It’s in the Hadith then, same principle.

https://hadeethenc.com/en/browse/hadith/65023

It's nothing like the same principle, it's hearsay "it was narrated that Abu Hurairah said", Islamic scholars disagree sometimes quite forcefully about not just the validity of individual hadith AND their interpretation but also whole volumes of hadith and what weight (if any) should be given to hadith.

The thing to remember is that Islam (with some exceptions) is not a monolithic faith, we don't have a Pope or any other formal hierarchical structures, at the mosque I'm involved with we don't try and direct anyone in the expression of their faith we just provide a space to pray without judging. People are generally left to their own devices, what's missing is the open dialogue on scripture and practice that was common place in previous times.

I was certainly never taught to hate Jews or seek their destruction by religious teachers or my parents, I've never seen this hadith before you brought it to my intention. I'm sure I could find many Christian texts that talk about Jews in a similar way, this is the first result I found when googling "Papal decree on jews":

https://www.eiu.edu/historia/Olson2015.pdf

There were clearly openly anti semitic churches and individuals that at the very least enabled the holocaust

epwc wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:10 am It's nothing like the same principle, it's hearsay "it was narrated that Abu Hurairah said", Islamic scholars disagree sometimes quite forcefully about not just the validity of individual hadith AND their interpretation but also whole volumes of hadith and what weight (if any) should be given to hadith.

The thing to remember is that Islam (with some exceptions) is not a monolithic faith, we don't have a Pope or any other formal hierarchical structures, at the mosque I'm involved with we don't try and direct anyone in the expression of their faith we just provide a space to pray without judging. People are generally left to their own devices, what's missing is the open dialogue on scripture and practice that was common place in previous times.

I was certainly never taught to hate Jews or seek their destruction by religious teachers or my parents, I've never seen this hadith before you brought it to my intention. I'm sure I could find many Christian texts that talk about Jews in a similar way, this is the first result I found when googling "Papal decree on jews":

https://www.eiu.edu/historia/Olson2015.pdf

There were clearly openly anti semitic churches and individuals that at the very least enabled the holocaust

I’m sure your mosque is fine. But as you know there are many that are not fine in the UK, where there are some very toxic teachings happening.

More so overseas eg Gaza, Iran, North Africa.

These texts give power to and are abused in order to get people to carry out some pretty horrific things, with a clear conscience.

Eg Sydney part 2

What purpose is served by posting the video of the stabbing?

People do all sorts of shit in "clear conscience", Rwanda springs to mind; they didn't need any religious text to justify slaughtering each other.

I was reading a New Scientist special on the origins of man a few weeks ago, there is evidence that human species have been eradicated human species, and that genocides have been happening since pretty much the start of our existence as Homo sapiens, there's something deeply rooted in our psyche that drives this, we find justification wherever we conveniently can.

My mum and dad grew up in mixed villages on the (now) Indian side of the border, my dad was 14 years old when his family had to leave because the Sikh leader of the village could no longer guarantee their safety. As with near enough every survivor of these events nobody afterwards understood why it had happened, but on the other hand people that survived it just couldn't bear to talk about it. My dad only spoke in detail about the horrors that he saw the year before he died, I know I was lucky to have that chat because most people whose parents survived Partition never managed it.

I guess the difference between Partition and the Holocaust was that in one everyone was to blame, in the other there was a very definite perpetrator.

epwc wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:03 pm People do all sorts of shit in "clear conscience", Rwanda springs to mind; they didn't need any religious text to justify slaughtering each other.

I was reading a New Scientist special on the origins of man a few weeks ago, there is evidence that human species have been eradicated human species, and that genocides have been happening since pretty much the start of our existence as Homo sapiens, there's something deeply rooted in our psyche that drives this, we find justification wherever we conveniently can.

Earlier I was trying to articulate something that was spurred by Kiwias' post

Kiwias wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:14 am Being a good human is a basic tenet of living in any society and should not really depend on a belief in any specific religion.

I still haven't quite got there, but the gist of it is that we can turn this on its head and say that all religions have at their centre the basic tenet that we be good human beings. However, being a human construct, religions don't stop humans from acting in a barbaric way, and can indeed be the method by which we "other" a group in order to justify violence against them.

Even Buddhist groups have committed atrocities in the likes of Myanmar, Sri Lanka and Thailand. I think what I'm trying to say is that it's not religions that are the problem per se.

Tichtheid wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:14 pmI think what I'm trying to say is that it's not religions that are the problem per se.

Exactly

Ymx wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:33 am

epwc wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:10 am It's nothing like the same principle, it's hearsay "it was narrated that Abu Hurairah said", Islamic scholars disagree sometimes quite forcefully about not just the validity of individual hadith AND their interpretation but also whole volumes of hadith and what weight (if any) should be given to hadith.

The thing to remember is that Islam (with some exceptions) is not a monolithic faith, we don't have a Pope or any other formal hierarchical structures, at the mosque I'm involved with we don't try and direct anyone in the expression of their faith we just provide a space to pray without judging. People are generally left to their own devices, what's missing is the open dialogue on scripture and practice that was common place in previous times.

I was certainly never taught to hate Jews or seek their destruction by religious teachers or my parents, I've never seen this hadith before you brought it to my intention. I'm sure I could find many Christian texts that talk about Jews in a similar way, this is the first result I found when googling "Papal decree on jews":

https://www.eiu.edu/historia/Olson2015.pdf

There were clearly openly anti semitic churches and individuals that at the very least enabled the holocaust

I’m sure your mosque is fine. But as you know there are many that are not fine in the UK, where there are some very toxic teachings happening.

More so overseas eg Gaza, Iran, North Africa.

These texts give power to and are abused in order to get people to carry out some pretty horrific things, with a clear conscience.

So labelling the entire faith for the actions of a subset of that faith is ok? I'm sure there's a name for that.

They offered him Australian citizenship.

Biffer wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:20 pm

Ymx wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:33 am

epwc wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:10 am It's nothing like the same principle, it's hearsay "it was narrated that Abu Hurairah said", Islamic scholars disagree sometimes quite forcefully about not just the validity of individual hadith AND their interpretation but also whole volumes of hadith and what weight (if any) should be given to hadith.

The thing to remember is that Islam (with some exceptions) is not a monolithic faith, we don't have a Pope or any other formal hierarchical structures, at the mosque I'm involved with we don't try and direct anyone in the expression of their faith we just provide a space to pray without judging. People are generally left to their own devices, what's missing is the open dialogue on scripture and practice that was common place in previous times.

I was certainly never taught to hate Jews or seek their destruction by religious teachers or my parents, I've never seen this hadith before you brought it to my intention. I'm sure I could find many Christian texts that talk about Jews in a similar way, this is the first result I found when googling "Papal decree on jews":

https://www.eiu.edu/historia/Olson2015.pdf

There were clearly openly anti semitic churches and individuals that at the very least enabled the holocaust

I’m sure your mosque is fine. But as you know there are many that are not fine in the UK, where there are some very toxic teachings happening.

More so overseas eg Gaza, Iran, North Africa.

These texts give power to and are abused in order to get people to carry out some pretty horrific things, with a clear conscience.

So labelling the entire faith for the actions of a subset of that faith is ok? I'm sure there's a name for that.

Who said all. What a pathetic cheap trick !

Tichtheid wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:14 pmI still haven't quite got there, but the gist of it is that we can turn this on its head and say that all religions have at their centre the basic tenet that we be good human beings. However, being a human construct, religions don't stop humans from acting in a barbaric way, and can indeed be the method by which we "other" a group in order to justify violence against them.

Othering is a really good word, I only learnt it through my daughter when she was at Uni studying history, it describes exactly what happens in every kind of intolerance

epwc wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:03 pm People do all sorts of shit in "clear conscience", Rwanda springs to mind; they didn't need any religious text to justify slaughtering each other.

I was reading a New Scientist special on the origins of man a few weeks ago, there is evidence that human species have been eradicated human species, and that genocides have been happening since pretty much the start of our existence as Homo sapiens, there's something deeply rooted in our psyche that drives this, we find justification wherever we conveniently can.

My mum and dad grew up in mixed villages on the (now) Indian side of the border, my dad was 14 years old when his family had to leave because the Sikh leader of the village could no longer guarantee their safety. As with near enough every survivor of these events nobody afterwards understood why it had happened, but on the other hand people that survived it just couldn't bear to talk about it. My dad only spoke in detail about the horrors that he saw the year before he died, I know I was lucky to have that chat because most people whose parents survived Partition never managed it.

I guess the difference between Partition and the Holocaust was that in one everyone was to blame, in the other there was a very definite perpetrator.

That’s plain whataboutery.

Boko Haram is one such horrific Islamic murderous group.

As are the Islamist teachings those in Gaza are getting.

Which bit is "whataboutery"? Rwanda happened, Partition happened, the Holocaust happened, the extermination (pretty much) of Native North Americans happened, what about Australia? These are all real historical events, Muslims participated in only one of them. There's evidence of genocides going back many thousands of years.

So a bogon league supporter murders a bunch of people but the thread's still manages to get dominated by Muslim rhetoric

Apologies for the total derailing of this thread.

Insane_Homer wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:41 pm So a bogon league supporter murders a bunch of people but the thread's still manages to get dominated by Muslim rhetoric

Are you saying it should be full of anti League rhetoric?

Biffer wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:20 pm

So labelling the entire faith for the actions of a subset of that faith is ok? I'm sure there's a name for that.

If it's around having a belief in a sky wizard it doesn't seem unreasonable, as opposed to a belief in a sky wizard (or indeed sky fairy if that's your thing) which seems odd and then some.

Not sure what it's got to do with someone killing women on the back of some serious mental health issues. I'd expect more a conversation around how one treats such people, how one tries to avoid such instances, and the problems of holding people before they've acted when they may never act and/or possibly forcing treatment on people.

epwc wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:45 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:41 pm So a bogon league supporter murders a bunch of people but the thread's still manages to get dominated by Muslim rhetoric

Are you saying it should be full of anti League rhetoric?

It could be an opportunity for people to come together, and do both

I don't know what it's like in Oz but in the UK there is nowhere near enough support available for, or diagnosis of people with mental health issues

Tichtheid wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:14 pm

epwc wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:03 pm People do all sorts of shit in "clear conscience", Rwanda springs to mind; they didn't need any religious text to justify slaughtering each other.

I was reading a New Scientist special on the origins of man a few weeks ago, there is evidence that human species have been eradicated human species, and that genocides have been happening since pretty much the start of our existence as Homo sapiens, there's something deeply rooted in our psyche that drives this, we find justification wherever we conveniently can.

Earlier I was trying to articulate something that was spurred by Kiwias' post

Kiwias wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:14 am Being a good human is a basic tenet of living in any society and should not really depend on a belief in any specific religion.

I still haven't quite got there, but the gist of it is that we can turn this on its head and say that all religions have at their centre the basic tenet that we be good human beings. However, being a human construct, religions don't stop humans from acting in a barbaric way, and can indeed be the method by which we "other" a group in order to justify violence against them.

Even Buddhist groups have committed atrocities in the likes of Myanmar, Sri Lanka and Thailand. I think what I'm trying to say is that it's not religions that are the problem per se.

A good point and for clarity, I did not intend to say that religions are the problem.

epwc wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 1:09 pm I don't know what it's like in Oz but in the UK there is nowhere near enough support available for, or diagnosis of people with mental health issues

A similar theme of steadily reducing funding for health services, particularly mental health support over the last 20 years or so. Australia has also been struggling with a shameful epidemic of women being murdered, whether within a primary relationship or through some sort of random attack. I believe the young mother killed at Bondi junction among the other victims propelled this year's tally to 27 women killed so far. Last year I believe the number was higher than one per week.

Substance abuse and mental health are also closely linked. Most of our soup kitchen punters have mental health/substance abuse issues

Yeah... there's a sort of appeal in self medicating for many, along with simple escapism.

I lived in Australia for over 30 years. I have a theory that the pysche of the place is still very much informed by a sort of deep fear of the unknown that manifests in the physical reality of a brutally harsh landscape and the eerie ability of the indigenous folk to thrive within it, often seeming to disappear at will. The early settlers, many of whom were transported convicts, found themselves thrust into interaction with this uncompromising environment and many withered in the face of it. Others survived and thrived through a sort of wild anger at their place in life... there are countless stories of the horrors inflicted on the native peoples which basically boil down to a genocide. I think that primal anger, fuelled by fear, still holds sway in Australian culture today... scratch the surface and all the misogyny, racism and unbridled intolerance is revealed and is only held together by a veneer of decency.

Look at the shameful manner with which the country at large treated their first female Prime Minister just 10 years ago for an insight into the true place of women in Australia. It's not a safe place, despite it's repeated assurances. The next few years will be interesting for the country as it grapples with the rise of the Hard Right and deals with the cosy relationship the Murdoch media empire enjoys with that element.

Very interesting post Guy. Thanks.

I’m pretty sure that brutalised people find it easier to brutalise others

Hugo wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:22 pm Very interesting post Guy. Thanks.

Only my opinion Hugo... entirely subjective. I did a bit of study in psychology and therapy at one stage, nowhere near degree level but I was passionate and interested and that interest still propels a lot of my thinking.

epwc wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:25 pm I’m pretty sure that brutalised people find it easier to brutalise others

Absolutely.. I think it's pretty normal to see that dynamic play out time after time, sadly.

Guy Smiley wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:18 pm Yeah... there's a sort of appeal in self medicating for many, along with simple escapism.

I lived in Australia for over 30 years. I have a theory that the pysche of the place is still very much informed by a sort of deep fear of the unknown that manifests in the physical reality of a brutally harsh landscape and the eerie ability of the indigenous folk to thrive within it, often seeming to disappear at will. The early settlers, many of whom were transported convicts, found themselves thrust into interaction with this uncompromising environment and many withered in the face of it. Others survived and thrived through a sort of wild anger at their place in life... there are countless stories of the horrors inflicted on the native peoples which basically boil down to a genocide. I think that primal anger, fuelled by fear, still holds sway in Australian culture today... scratch the surface and all the misogyny, racism and unbridled intolerance is revealed and is only held together by a veneer of decency.

Look at the shameful manner with which the country at large treated their first female Prime Minister just 10 years ago for an insight into the true place of women in Australia. It's not a safe place, despite it's repeated assurances. The next few years will be interesting for the country as it grapples with the rise of the Hard Right and deals with the cosy relationship the Murdoch media empire enjoys with that element.

A damned fine post, guy. Reading the bolded bit, I’m reminded of how badly former-PM Ardern was treated by Kiwis and wonder if we are that different at heart to Aussies.

Parallels with the US also? Thought I’d read somewhere a theory that much of the American psyche is down to its history being a “frontier” country.

Sinkers wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 12:10 am Parallels with the US also? Thought I’d read somewhere a theory that much of the American psyche is down to its history being a “frontier” country.

Bizarre twist in the plot... I was cruising around the other night at work rolling this stuff around in my head (as you do, of course) and I was thinking pretty much this precise line of thought. There's an innate fragility inside the big blustering ego type, perhaps you could label it as a sort of over compensating behaviour. There's also a pop psychology line about anger being a mask for fear... go behind the anger and you'll find the source sort of thing.

Guy Smiley wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:43 pm

epwc wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 1:09 pm I don't know what it's like in Oz but in the UK there is nowhere near enough support available for, or diagnosis of people with mental health issues

A similar theme of steadily reducing funding for health services, particularly mental health support over the last 20 years or so. Australia has also been struggling with a shameful epidemic of women being murdered, whether within a primary relationship or through some sort of random attack. I believe the young mother killed at Bondi junction among the other victims propelled this year's tally to 27 women killed so far. Last year I believe the number was higher than one per week.

The official Australian homicide stats for 2023 aren't released as yet, but the Australian Institute of Criminology website shows 56 women (i.e. females >18 were victims of homicide in calendar year 2022. Higher than one a week, as you said.

Blackmac wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 12:39 pm Blimey. A mate has just sent me the press interview from the NSW Police Commissioner. She clearly skipped media training throughout her career. Never heard such rambling rubbish from any senior officer in such circumstances.

She's absolutely useless in the Media and reportedly on her way out