European Rugby Thread

[Torquemada 1420]

Huge hit, albeit one an inch away from a red card. Ref doesn't care at all about the Castres loosehead standing up at every scrum

You better not f**k this up. I have Quins to win by a narrow margin against a partially interested CO. Trouble is CO are always cussed at home.

[JM2K6]

Great line by Dombrandt off yet another scrappy lineout.

[Biffer]

Good to know we have 55m rugby players to pick from

Do you think Ireland have 7 million?

No. It's almost like it's an utterly meaningless stat. Look at the population of Russia!

…to highlight the meaningless pish sockwithaticket was coming out with.

[Biffer]

Carney just given one of the most ridiculous decisions this season. Glasgow already down to 14 for pulling a rolling maul down in front of the line: from which Sinzelle scored but Carney failed to apply the advantage.

Then on next foray a Glasgow back bats the ball forward with both hands to prevent an overlap. Clear yellow. Carney's rationale is he went for it with both hands. Completely disregarding that the ball was deliberately knocked fwds and there was no chance of recovering it.

So you missed Carney saying he got both hands to it again on the way down after he’d popped it up into the air, so that meant he thought it was a genuine attempt to catch the ball?

No. I heard Carney's excuse clearly. If you launch yourself with your arms like Tom Daley, then whether you almost miraculously reached the ball thereafter is irrelevant. The Law is clear

It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.

Otherwise players could simply throw the ball fwds a la gridiron and recover it. The Fre commentary team covered this clearly. Further, in such situations I cannot recall a ref not penalising where the ball was NOT regathered and it was not. Carney's basis of argument was that 2 arms were used and not 1 was irrelevant to the Law.

You don’t watch much rugby if you’ve not seen that before

[Torquemada 1420]

Lol just said Castres' backline has an average age of 35... true or an exaggeration?!

Utter bollox. Larregain and Laveau are both under 25 so you'd need some serious fiddling to get the average up to 35.

{EDIT} Just checked and Kockott and Udrapilleta are both 35 but no-one exceeds that age.

[Torquemada 1420]

You don’t watch much rugby if you’ve not seen that before

I'm talking in that situation i.e. where the "intercept" prevents a try. The closest I can recall was a few years back when Willemse's tackle prevented a try in the 6N but that was nothing like this.

[JM2K6]

Massive lock pulls Marler over in the maul. Ref penalises Marler.

[Kawazaki]

And ?

They have much more concentrated quality of players. The best players in Ireland are dsitributed across 4 teams (well, 3. Sorry Connacht...). The best of England are spread across 13.

Population of Ireland 7 million. Population of England 55 million.

Population of China 1.4bn. They must be brilliant at rugby?

[Niegs]

Lol just said Castres' backline has an average age of 35... true or an exaggeration?!

Utter bollox. Larregain and Laveau are both under 25 so you'd need some serious fiddling to get the average up to 35.

{EDIT} Just checked and Kockott and Udrapilleta are both 35 but no-one exceeds that age.

I thought it'd be unlikely. Knew that a couple were up there, but wiki also doesn't have full bios on all the backs.

It shouldn't surprise me, though, as Dallaglio's such a poor commentator that he couldn't even make the tone of his voice sound sarcastic. Came across as stating a fact.

[JM2K6]

Ugh. So many errors.

[Biffer]

They have much more concentrated quality of players. The best players in Ireland are dsitributed across 4 teams (well, 3. Sorry Connacht...). The best of England are spread across 13.

Population of Ireland 7 million. Population of England 55 million.

Population of China 1.4bn. They must be brilliant at rugby?

Just highlighting the pish sockwithaticket is coming out with, as earlier on the page

[JM2K6]

Population of Ireland 7 million. Population of England 55 million.

Population of China 1.4bn. They must be brilliant at rugby?

Just highlighting the pish sockwithaticket is coming out with, as earlier on the page

It's irrelevant though - we do spread our players more thinly. Yes, we have more players than Ireland, but it's not 13 top quality teams worth.

[sockwithaticket]

Population of Ireland 7 million. Population of England 55 million.

Population of China 1.4bn. They must be brilliant at rugby?

Just highlighting the pish sockwithaticket is coming out with, as earlier on the page

Someone was questioning why the Irish teams are so good and I pointed out that their good players are concentrated into fewer teams, what exactly is pish about that?

[JM2K6]

Our ball handling is so bad at the moment.

[Paddington Bear]

Play the whistle…

[Biffer]

Population of China 1.4bn. They must be brilliant at rugby?

Just highlighting the pish sockwithaticket is coming out with, as earlier on the page

Someone was questioning why the Irish teams are so good and I pointed out that their good players are concentrated into fewer teams, what exactly is pish about that?

Would you expect a smaller playing pool to produce the same number of good players as a pool three or four times the size? Ireland’s player pathways are better organised and developed, so they produce more good players from smaller playing numbers. It’s not to do with concentrating talent, it’s that they produce proportionately more.

[JM2K6]

Surprised he pinged that, given they sealed off several times earlier. Still, I'll take it. Musk hits his man at the lineout, Quins win while playing pretty poorly.

[Paddington Bear]

There’s no doubt Ireland got marginal gains from having a concentration of experienced internationals. AWJ in Wales another example of what hundreds of caps can do even to a declining player with a bit about them.
The flipside is there is only so low England can stoop given the depth. Swings and roundabouts

[Torquemada 1420]

Huge hit, albeit one an inch away from a red card. Ref doesn't care at all about the Castres loosehead standing up at every scrum

You better not f**k this up. I have Quins to win by a narrow margin against a partially interested CO. Trouble is CO are always cussed at home.

Will take that.

[sockwithaticket]

Just highlighting the pish sockwithaticket is coming out with, as earlier on the page

Someone was questioning why the Irish teams are so good and I pointed out that their good players are concentrated into fewer teams, what exactly is pish about that?

Would you expect a smaller playing pool to produce the same number of good players as a pool three or four times the size? Ireland’s player pathways are better organised and developed, so they produce more good players from smaller playing numbers. It’s not to do with concentrating talent, it’s that they produce proportionately more.

It's obviously not the only factor, but it's not nothing either.

[Torquemada 1420]

Would you expect a smaller playing pool to produce the same number of good players as a pool three or four times the size? Ireland’s player pathways are better organised and developed, so they produce more good players from smaller playing numbers. It’s not to do with concentrating talent, it’s that they produce proportionately more.

A lot easier to organise pathways towards a collective goal with smaller nos. of centres than the reverse. The way you paint it is as if the regions are totally disconnected from development and simply pick the players like a supermarket picks veg after the farms have grown them!

[Biffer]

This little moment from Hogg is brilliant

[Ovals]

Decent weekend for English clubs - the ones that lost weren't really contenders and we had 3 good away wins - a better start than we've had over the last few years.

However, with the dire warnings about the spread of the Omicron variant, I wonder how long the clubs will be able to put teams on the field.

[fishfoodie]

Decent weekend for English clubs - the ones that lost weren't really contenders and we had 3 good away wins - a better start than we've had over the last few years.

However, with the dire warnings about the spread of the Omicron variant, I wonder how long the clubs will be able to put teams on the field.

Yeah; there are real concerns about the disruption that may happen to the competition; but look at the games that were effected. Cardiff V Toulouse; Cardiff gave a really good account of themselves. Munster & Wasps; ditto; & if not for the Red card would have been a nail bitter. Only Scarlets V Bristol was written off, & that was a great shame.

I think they should loosen up the availability rules; & maybe look to reschedule games; if both sides agree.

Everyone is happy to see crowds back inside the stadia; & everyone is suffering financially; so I don't think anyone really wants to see covid ruin the competition.

[Niegs]

This little moment from Hogg is brilliant

[Torquemada 1420]

Decent weekend for English clubs - the ones that lost weren't really contenders and we had 3 good away wins - a better start than we've had over the last few years.

However, with the dire warnings about the spread of the Omicron variant, I wonder how long the clubs will be able to put teams on the field.

Not sure what else you should have been expecting given
a) the fixtures
b) I'd pointed out how bad the Fre clubs were generally playing
c) Fre clubs don't give a sh*t about the 2nd tier comp

The only surprises involving Eng sides were
i) Leicester winning at Bordeaux but that was always going to be a tight game and once Jalibert was out injured for Tin-Duck, it was going afford Leicester a great chance which they took with Ford running the show.
ii) A pretty strong Sarries losing to Ed.

[Ovals]

Decent weekend for English clubs - the ones that lost weren't really contenders and we had 3 good away wins - a better start than we've had over the last few years.

However, with the dire warnings about the spread of the Omicron variant, I wonder how long the clubs will be able to put teams on the field.

Not sure what else you should have been expecting given
a) the fixtures
b) I'd pointed out how bad the Fre clubs were generally playing
c) Fre clubs don't give a sh*t about the 2nd tier comp

The only surprises involving Eng sides were
i) Leicester winning at Bordeaux but that was always going to be a tight game and once Jalibert was out injured for Tin-Duck, it was going afford Leicester a great chance which they took with Ford running the show.
ii) A pretty strong Sarries losing to Ed.

I was only referring to the Champions Cup - I don't think anyone really gives a toss about the 2nd tier comp.

[SaintK]

Decent weekend for English clubs - the ones that lost weren't really contenders and we had 3 good away wins - a better start than we've had over the last few years.

However, with the dire warnings about the spread of the Omicron variant, I wonder how long the clubs will be able to put teams on the field.

Not sure what else you should have been expecting given
a) the fixtures
b) I'd pointed out how bad the Fre clubs were generally playing
c) Fre clubs don't give a sh*t about the 2nd tier comp

The only surprises involving Eng sides were
i) Leicester winning at Bordeaux but that was always going to be a tight game and once Jalibert was out injured for Tin-Duck, it was going afford Leicester a great chance which they took with Ford running the show.
ii) A pretty strong Sarries losing to Ed.

I was only referring to the Champions Cup - I don't think anyone really gives a toss about the 2nd tier comp.

Should imagine our Scottish friends here do!!

[sockwithaticket]

Other than the trophy, what do you even get for winning the Challenge Cup these days? It used to be automatic qualification for next year's big boy tournament.

The format section of the EPCR site doesn't mention anything and that seemed the most obvious place to look.

[Torquemada 1420]

Other than the trophy, what do you even get for winning the Challenge Cup these days? It used to be automatic qualification for next year's big boy tournament.

The format section of the EPCR site doesn't mention anything and that seemed the most obvious place to look.

Good question. EPCR site is awful.

[Tichtheid]

Not sure what else you should have been expecting given
a) the fixtures
b) I'd pointed out how bad the Fre clubs were generally playing
c) Fre clubs don't give a sh*t about the 2nd tier comp

The only surprises involving Eng sides were
i) Leicester winning at Bordeaux but that was always going to be a tight game and once Jalibert was out injured for Tin-Duck, it was going afford Leicester a great chance which they took with Ford running the show.
ii) A pretty strong Sarries losing to Ed.

I was only referring to the Champions Cup - I don't think anyone really gives a toss about the 2nd tier comp.

Should imagine our Scottish friends here do!!

Nah, it only really becomes important in the knock outs and even then only once you get to the semis. I was hoping Edinburgh would use the games to blood some young players, and if fact we did have a callow fly half and winger playing plus a lock who is fairly inexperienced, but otherwise it was more established heads that took to the field. Having said that we had about a dozen players on the injury list for Saturday, including five definite first XV starters and one or two more probables.

We're building a new team with a new coach and a totally different style to that which Cockerill had us playing, so things will take time to bed in, but I have to say, that was a terrific result for Edinburgh.
Beating a team of Saracens' pedigree on their own turf is not something Embra fans have been used to, far from it.

[Happyhooker]

Other than the trophy, what do you even get for winning the Challenge Cup these days? It used to be automatic qualification for next year's big boy tournament.

The format section of the EPCR site doesn't mention anything and that seemed the most obvious place to look.

If you haven't qualified through your league you get automatic qualification

[Slick]

Other than the trophy, what do you even get for winning the Challenge Cup these days? It used to be automatic qualification for next year's big boy tournament.

The format section of the EPCR site doesn't mention anything and that seemed the most obvious place to look.

Good question. EPCR site is awful.

It is really, really bad.

[weegie01]

It's irrelevant though - we do spread our players more thinly. Yes, we have more players than Ireland, but it's not 13 top quality teams worth.

I don't understand why this would be so. Partly because I don't think it is unreasonable that the much larger pool of players in England should generate enough players of the requisite quality. The relationship may not be linear, but a larger pool of players should result in more players of a defined standard, other things being equal. Partly because I remember a time it was virtually axiomatic that the average level in the Prem was higher than in Scotland, Wales and Ireland individually or combined.

When the Celtic League was launched, it had 4 teams from each of Scotland, Wales and Ireland. It was generally accepted that the teams at the top were comparable to the top of the Prem, in the middle the English teams were stronger, and at the bottom the English teams were much stronger with the Prem teams stronger on average. There was a persuasive argument that there were teams in the Championship that were better than some of those in the Celtic League.

The Scottish teams consolidated to two, the Welsh to three and Irish stayed at 4. Ireland did consider dropping to three as the IRFU felt they lacked the resources for 4, but Connacht survived as an underfunded development side.

If the concentration of resources were the reason for Ireland's success, then Ireland would have had more success earlier, and Scotland, and especially Wales given their relative success at international level, would have seen better results.

I don't think much has changed in England, Scotland or Wales. What has changed is that Ireland has found a way to improve the quality of all its teams relative not just to the Prem, but relative to everyone else with Connacht improving just as much as Leinster, just from a lower base. I don't know how they did it, but I am envious they did.

[sockwithaticket]

Other than the trophy, what do you even get for winning the Challenge Cup these days? It used to be automatic qualification for next year's big boy tournament.

The format section of the EPCR site doesn't mention anything and that seemed the most obvious place to look.

If you haven't qualified through your league you get automatic qualification

Ah ok, cheers. Hadn't heard it mentioned since the new format of top 8 qualification and round of 16 came in.

[Biffer]

Really don't like the new format. Would prefer to go back to groups of four.

[JM2K6]

It's irrelevant though - we do spread our players more thinly. Yes, we have more players than Ireland, but it's not 13 top quality teams worth.

I don't understand why this would be so. Partly because I don't think it is unreasonable that the much larger pool of players in England should generate enough players of the requisite quality. The relationship may not be linear, but a larger pool of players should result in more players of a defined standard, other things being equal. Partly because I remember a time it was virtually axiomatic that the average level in the Prem was higher than in Scotland, Wales and Ireland individually or combined.

When the Celtic League was launched, it had 4 teams from each of Scotland, Wales and Ireland. It was generally accepted that the teams at the top were comparable to the top of the Prem, in the middle the English teams were stronger, and at the bottom the English teams were much stronger with the Prem teams stronger on average. There was a persuasive argument that there were teams in the Championship that were better than some of those in the Celtic League.

The Scottish teams consolidated to two, the Welsh to three and Irish stayed at 4. Ireland did consider dropping to three as the IRFU felt they lacked the resources for 4, but Connacht survived as an underfunded development side.

If the concentration of resources were the reason for Ireland's success, then Ireland would have had more success earlier, and Scotland, and especially Wales given their relative success at international level, would have seen better results.

I don't think much has changed in England, Scotland or Wales. What has changed is that Ireland has found a way to improve the quality of all its teams relative not just to the Prem, but relative to everyone else with Connacht improving just as much as Leinster, just from a lower base. I don't know how they did it, but I am envious they did.

It's largely because our larger pool of players is mostly a larger pool of amateurs. It's not a 1 to 1 translation into a directly proportionate number of top professionals (or good academy players). I don't think it's coincidental that you're talking about the launch of the Celtic league, in the early days of professionalism, where the difference between amateur and professional was much smaller. Now, the Championship is made up teams who are miles off Premiership standard, with lots of semi-pro players, and every now and then some moneybags pushes for promotion with a bunch of mercenaries only to come a cropper in the big league.

Obviously England should have more professional players in terms of pure numbers, and you'd expect more players at the top end of quality, too - but there's a lot of factors that contribute here (the season, the schedule, the catchment areas, football, etc).

I think a more interesting line of debate is a) would 4 teams worth of English players from across the 13 clubs thrive more in an Irish-style environment? and b) would consolidating the clubs lead to higher quality or just more players missing out, along with c) would it even be financially viable to do so.

But it's all spitballing anyway, the reality is we're making do with what we've got in terms of the ownership and management of the sport in this country.

[Slick]

I suppose another way of looking at is the 1XV squad of E, I, S and W are broadly competitive.

The 2nd XV’s would be similar with Scotland and Wales maybe struggling a bit

3rd XV and Scotland are ringing round Friday night to see if they can raise a team and Wales also drop off a fair bit

Scotland don’t have a 4th XV, Wales don’t either, England and Ireland probably still fairy level

[inactionman]

It's irrelevant though - we do spread our players more thinly. Yes, we have more players than Ireland, but it's not 13 top quality teams worth.

I don't understand why this would be so. Partly because I don't think it is unreasonable that the much larger pool of players in England should generate enough players of the requisite quality. The relationship may not be linear, but a larger pool of players should result in more players of a defined standard, other things being equal. Partly because I remember a time it was virtually axiomatic that the average level in the Prem was higher than in Scotland, Wales and Ireland individually or combined.

When the Celtic League was launched, it had 4 teams from each of Scotland, Wales and Ireland. It was generally accepted that the teams at the top were comparable to the top of the Prem, in the middle the English teams were stronger, and at the bottom the English teams were much stronger with the Prem teams stronger on average. There was a persuasive argument that there were teams in the Championship that were better than some of those in the Celtic League.

The Scottish teams consolidated to two, the Welsh to three and Irish stayed at 4. Ireland did consider dropping to three as the IRFU felt they lacked the resources for 4, but Connacht survived as an underfunded development side.

If the concentration of resources were the reason for Ireland's success, then Ireland would have had more success earlier, and Scotland, and especially Wales given their relative success at international level, would have seen better results.

I don't think much has changed in England, Scotland or Wales. What has changed is that Ireland has found a way to improve the quality of all its teams relative not just to the Prem, but relative to everyone else with Connacht improving just as much as Leinster, just from a lower base. I don't know how they did it, but I am envious they did.

I think part of Ireland's success has been in developing and then retaining internationals in their regional teams - through various means including a very attractive tax breaks etc but also in terms of a more joined up approach to player development between club and country (I'm really contrasting with England here, where it's probably better now than it was at early stages of professionalism but is still not ideal, especially given Eddie picking players in random positions and breaking what feels like at least half of them in every camp).

I appreciate it's just my gut intuition but I think retention is overlooked a fair bit in these arguments, which benefits both club and national team - especially if you can get national team players playing in their club positions alongside their club teammates, e.g. Leinster backs and Munster forwards. Wales for example have had to introduce rules to stop the exodus of their better players (eta: I know all countries have had to this, but it seemed to introduce more soulsearching and contention in Wales than elsewhere, presumably as it hit so many in the squad). England - even noting that the national team players aren't evenly distributed amongst the clubs - have a quite diffuse team representation, e.g. post-Vunipola there are only really 2/3 Sarries in the pack and although Bath provide a good handful in the squad these are at best a couple of front row, a lock, a back row and a wing or two. There's very few club pairings/groupings being blooded and developed in international competition, which is surely the most intense development environment in professional rugby, and a development which would be hugely beneficial to the club sides themselves.

I've always been intrigued by the argument that larger player numbers necessarily drives up quality, mostly as I view being included in international competition as a development pathway in itself and is limited to a selected few for all teams - everyone has a squad of 23 on matchday, and the same number of caps to build up experience and to develop the players. On this topic, I'm also not convinced England have done the clubs - or a number of players - many favours in recent years.

Just my two pence worth, but as a completely unscientific observation Ireland do seem to retain their better players in Ireland more effectively than their peers.

[Raggs]

I always did wonder how, as a useless tighthead playing in division 13, I improve how well players at the top level perform.

Playing numbers are relatively meaningless.