NPR

handyman wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:08 pm
Well, clearly we have enough players, we are taking part in both competitions and have not forfeited one game. See, I can be pedantic too.

We are using the CC to do our best in the URC. If we take a few losses in the CC, so be it. Is it nice to lose in the CC? No. Does it keep me awake at night? Hell no. I would rather we do better in our premier competition, the URC. Where we are doing ok, nothing more.

Chin up lad, I'm sure you'll win the CC, perhaps that will help with the cattiness.

average joe wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:18 pm

handyman wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:08 pm
Well, clearly we have enough players, we are taking part in both competitions and have not forfeited one game. See, I can be pedantic too.

We are using the CC to do our best in the URC. If we take a few losses in the CC, so be it. Is it nice to lose in the CC? No. Does it keep me awake at night? Hell no. I would rather we do better in our premier competition, the URC. Where we are doing ok, nothing more.

Chin up lad, I'm sure you'll win the CC, perhaps that will help with the cattiness.

Stupid poster gets exposed for his stupidity so turns to petty insults.

Now that I've handed you your arse on a platter I'm done with you. I'm moving on to kicking Sards arse till his nose bleeds, so be a good boy, scary off and go play with your karretjies op die highway.

average joe wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:30 pm O, perhaps I'm judging you to harshly. Attempting to belittle someone older than you by calling him a lad and saying that the genuine facts he is posting are cattiness might not be considered insults where you are from. Understandably when you come from a place where "jou ma se poes" is just a common say thing amongst the locals.

average joe wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:18 pm

handyman wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:08 pm
Well, clearly we have enough players, we are taking part in both competitions and have not forfeited one game. See, I can be pedantic too.

We are using the CC to do our best in the URC. If we take a few losses in the CC, so be it. Is it nice to lose in the CC? No. Does it keep me awake at night? Hell no. I would rather we do better in our premier competition, the URC. Where we are doing ok, nothing more.

Chin up lad, I'm sure you'll win the CC, perhaps that will help with the cattiness.

Stupid poster gets exposed for his stupidity so turns to petty insults.

Now that I've handed you your arse on a platter I'm done with you. I'm moving on to kicking Sards arse till his nose bleeds, so be a good boy, scary off and go play with your karretjies op die highway.

average joe wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:17 am

bok_viking wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:26 am

average joe wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:16 am
Why should they win it with ease? With the resources the Sharks, Bulls, WP and the Lions have the Freestate should not even feature. We should be competing against your 3rds and not even that should be a certain win.

The problem is that even with better resources, the so called B/C sides of these unions are not that great or they are very under developed in skill. For all the depth we have in SA rugby and the amount of players that come through the youth/varsity system each year we lose way to many players to other countries each year. Even though we can put out pretty decent 1st teams with/without Springboks, there is a big quality gap between the first 23 and the 2nd in my opinion. With the CC running at the same time as the URC, the quality in CC has been a lot worse than it should be, it feels more like the old Vodacom Cup at the moment. When you have roughly 400 players all over the world, even if not all are international/top quality players, that's still a lot that our teams cannot choose from. That is unfortunately the reality SA teams have to live with.
And i see the quota system was mentioned again, there were just as many bad performing white players in these teams.

Just looking at the Bulls game last night, the massive difference in quality of play there was once Morne came on and replaced Mossie, same with the scrumhalf. A 38 year old should not be that much better than a 24 year old when it comes to the B team.

Problem with your analysis is that the Freestate is also part of SA and struggle with the same issues as the rest of the teams, only they don't have the huge budgets and don't only lose players abroad but to local teams as well. Stop making excuses for how your teams are preforming in our national comp. You have no foot to stand on with investors like Motsepe, Rupert and the Americans. One of the poorer teams from a backwater province with one great school and one university team is kicking your arses.

average joe wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:03 pm It's not selective quoting. I've left nothing out from your post. I omitted previous posts from a different poster in order to shorten my post and direct it at you, it is easy enough to scroll up if you want to reverence something from older post from another poster. It's not like the post you are referring to are months old, they are literally just a few post above my last. It's similar to what I'm doing now where I'm answering you with out quoting your last post. It's a very simple method that a thirteen year old can understand. I don't need to quote everything you or everyone ells said previously to give you an answer.

Regarding your other excuse of players leaving you in droves. I've already explained to you that this is not unique to only the WP. It has been happening to the Freestate for ages. Our current CC team is filled with no-names bar two pensioners. You telling me that you cant muster 15 good enough players to beat them is a copout.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:31 pm Sad that the Stormers lost players to the $hark$. They could had better coaching and would be better players. Curwin Bosch could be better then Manie Libbok with better coaching.

handyman wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:21 am

average joe wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:17 am

bok_viking wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:26 am

The problem is that even with better resources, the so called B/C sides of these unions are not that great or they are very under developed in skill. For all the depth we have in SA rugby and the amount of players that come through the youth/varsity system each year we lose way to many players to other countries each year. Even though we can put out pretty decent 1st teams with/without Springboks, there is a big quality gap between the first 23 and the 2nd in my opinion. With the CC running at the same time as the URC, the quality in CC has been a lot worse than it should be, it feels more like the old Vodacom Cup at the moment. When you have roughly 400 players all over the world, even if not all are international/top quality players, that's still a lot that our teams cannot choose from. That is unfortunately the reality SA teams have to live with.
And i see the quota system was mentioned again, there were just as many bad performing white players in these teams.

Just looking at the Bulls game last night, the massive difference in quality of play there was once Morne came on and replaced Mossie, same with the scrumhalf. A 38 year old should not be that much better than a 24 year old when it comes to the B team.

Problem with your analysis is that the Freestate is also part of SA and struggle with the same issues as the rest of the teams, only they don't have the huge budgets and don't only lose players abroad but to local teams as well. Stop making excuses for how your teams are preforming in our national comp. You have no foot to stand on with investors like Motsepe, Rupert and the Americans. One of the poorer teams from a backwater province with one great school and one university team is kicking your arses.

Not at all, it's about dividing resources between 2 teams.

average joe wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:36 am

handyman wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:21 am
Not at all, it's about dividing resources between 2 teams.

The oldest team with the greatest rugby school system on the planet cannot produce enough players for two teams?

Please spin me another excuse, this one falls way short.

Blake wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:20 pm Not sure what happened to handyman. He used to be such a level-headed poster. Then a couple of years ago he turned into this insufferable WP / Stormers zealot.

Quite sad really.

FalseBayFC wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:29 pm

average joe wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:03 pm It's not selective quoting. I've left nothing out from your post. I omitted previous posts from a different poster in order to shorten my post and direct it at you, it is easy enough to scroll up if you want to reverence something from older post from another poster. It's not like the post you are referring to are months old, they are literally just a few post above my last. It's similar to what I'm doing now where I'm answering you with out quoting your last post. It's a very simple method that a thirteen year old can understand. I don't need to quote everything you or everyone ells said previously to give you an answer.

Regarding your other excuse of players leaving you in droves. I've already explained to you that this is not unique to only the WP. It has been happening to the Freestate for ages. Our current CC team is filled with no-names bar two pensioners. You telling me that you cant muster 15 good enough players to beat them is a copout.

Free State are nothing without their ex-Sharks like Ruan Pienaar and Frans Steyn. Poachers!

bok_viking wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:11 pm
Well I was not trying to make excuses for one team over another. I was talking about SA rugby in general, including Free state. As long as our currency exchange rate stays where it is now, there will always be a drain to other countries no matter how much money some provinces might have. Getting an average salary in Europe tend to completely outweigh a good salary in SA due to the exchange rate. So it is tough for even the biggest unions to have 2 squads that are both very good quality. The Bulls already look like they will lose a few more players in the off season to Europe. like Tambwe, Papier, etc. So all i am saying is that the lack of quality in the Currie Cup is understandable. And yes, unfortunately the smaller/poorer unions will lose their players to the richer ones, who try to replace the players leaving them. Just look how many of the Stomers players are moving to the Sharks now because the Sharks have a lot more money. In 2 years time the Sharks will most likely be 2/3s former Stormers players.

I think the last time the majority of our best players played in SA was when the Exchange rate was around 8/1 against the dollar.

FalseBayFC wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:29 pm
Free State are nothing without their ex-Sharks like Ruan Pienaar and Frans Steyn. Poachers!

FalseBayFC wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:29 pm

average joe wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:03 pm It's not selective quoting. I've left nothing out from your post. I omitted previous posts from a different poster in order to shorten my post and direct it at you, it is easy enough to scroll up if you want to reverence something from older post from another poster. It's not like the post you are referring to are months old, they are literally just a few post above my last. It's similar to what I'm doing now where I'm answering you with out quoting your last post. It's a very simple method that a thirteen year old can understand. I don't need to quote everything you or everyone ells said previously to give you an answer.

Regarding your other excuse of players leaving you in droves. I've already explained to you that this is not unique to only the WP. It has been happening to the Freestate for ages. Our current CC team is filled with no-names bar two pensioners. You telling me that you cant muster 15 good enough players to beat them is a copout.

Free State are nothing without their ex-Sharks like Ruan Pienaar and Frans Steyn. Poachers!

average joe wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:54 am

bok_viking wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:11 pm
Well I was not trying to make excuses for one team over another. I was talking about SA rugby in general, including Free state. As long as our currency exchange rate stays where it is now, there will always be a drain to other countries no matter how much money some provinces might have. Getting an average salary in Europe tend to completely outweigh a good salary in SA due to the exchange rate. So it is tough for even the biggest unions to have 2 squads that are both very good quality. The Bulls already look like they will lose a few more players in the off season to Europe. like Tambwe, Papier, etc. So all i am saying is that the lack of quality in the Currie Cup is understandable. And yes, unfortunately the smaller/poorer unions will lose their players to the richer ones, who try to replace the players leaving them. Just look how many of the Stomers players are moving to the Sharks now because the Sharks have a lot more money. In 2 years time the Sharks will most likely be 2/3s former Stormers players.

I think the last time the majority of our best players played in SA was when the Exchange rate was around 8/1 against the dollar.

It wasn't my intention to troll on this matter, only to point out the complete farce of the Freestate not being in the URC and that it only becomes an even bigger farce if they win the CC. But there's always at least one "drol in die drinkwater" that one has to deal with first before you can have a serous discussion with genuine posters.

The matter of players moving abroad came up when I mentioned that it should not be a given that the Freestate should walk the CC just because they don't compete in both comps. It seems that we agree on the fact that the Freestate suffer the player drain as well, I insist that they suffer more than most though. The Cheetahs are a team in a constant state of flux. Year after year they have to start from scratch, it's a permanent rebuilding phase. And they don't really have the funding to buy their way out of it like other teams.

People site the player drain as this huge issue, it is a problem but how big of a problem is it really. How many SA players are playing OS and how many of those would be considered better than what we have at home? Rugby is a very popular sport in SA, the academies pump out players like very few other countries do. If there is an issue with the quality of players then I'd suggest we start looking at coaching.

Also, blaming the exchange rate seems odd when you consider that most of these OS players return to SA after a year or two. Why would they come back to earn less money if money is all they cared about. Rugby players in SA earn good money, better than many other forms of employment. Money is a huge motivator but there are other reasons besides money that can convince them to go and, also convince them to return.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:37 am Despite the quality, the CC have many positives for the URC franchises. Jake White use it to keep his players match sharp. The franchises give their bench players CC time and some use their benches for both competitions. The CC also is very good for developing players. I,d like to see the URC franchise can borrow players from all CC teams. Frans Steyn and Pienaar being use by the Lions in the URC as an example.

Sards wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:08 am The CC is also a competition where players are contracted . The Cheetahs are not impacted by the URC and what you see is the best they have. Look how far down the log WP are....Sharks lying 3rd because the Bulls loaded their URC players into a CC side , which the Sharks did not and the Cheetahs were full strength. Fair play to them. Griquas and Pumas are also strong.
This is a skewed indication of the various unions depth....with only the Sharks and WP sticking to 2 seperate teams. The Sharks however have shown much greater depth between the 2

assfly wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:37 am I wonder what the financials of the Cheetahs are like. Between dropping out of the Pro16 and the effects of Covid, it's amazing they've survived this long.

bok_viking wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:31 pm Just watching the North South School Tournement on youtube. Good to see school rugby going again

Blake wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:31 pm

assfly wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:37 am I wonder what the financials of the Cheetahs are like. Between dropping out of the Pro16 and the effects of Covid, it's amazing they've survived this long.

It's amazing that they are still afloat and haven't gone the EP, SWD, Border route. Even WP with all its loyal fanbase couldn't stay financially viable, so the Cheetahs have actually done remarkably well.

And this isn't a new thing. The Cheetahs have been cash strapped since forever, it's the reason Jaques Nienaber (who was the team physio) had to learn some defense coaching as they couldn't afford a dedicated defensive coach when Rassie was head coach in the early 2000s. All the support staff had to "double up" on duties and gain some expertise as attack, defense or conditioning coaches.

And a lot of this stems from the abomination that was "The Cats" where the Cheetahs union and the Lions union had to share their Super 12 earnings and gates between 2 major unions, while the Sharks, WP and Bulls pretty much took their whole gate into their war chests. I don't think it can be understated how much it cripples a union when they get excluded from such a premier tournament. When the Lions got booted to make space for the Cheetahs and Kings in the Super 14 they almost went bankrupt waiting on the sidelines, and then when they were promoted back and the Kings were relegated, the Kings went into administration almost immediately.

The 14 Union amateur structure that SARU has has been our Achilles' Heel since the advent of professionalism. We should have done a proper structural reform in 1996 with 6 Professional franchises and carving up the remaining territory into semi-pro feeder areas, but there was just too much legacy and history and tradition and ego and pride to make that hard call.

So here we are 25 years later with 4 major teams, 2 relatively cash flush, 2 struggling financially and the the remainder relegated to second tiered competitions struggling to scrape by, get sponsors and stay out of administration.