NPR

Ymx wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:27 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:27 pm

Ymx wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:25 pm I was quite naive to the tactic of deliberately pulling out of a ruck to then cause the attacking team to go in off their feet.

That's an old one. Refs don't give penalties for that now.

Well they do. Saw one the last week too, much more blatant with pen awarded.

First time I’ve personally seen the ref pull up a player for trying it on, though.

You'll get penalised if you fly off your feet regardless of the back pedaling, but we've had refs tell players no penalty because they backed off for over a year now. It happens all the time..

Longshanks wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:34 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:29 pm

Slick wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:50 pm

I hope we can get some supporters at the games in the 6N. Even the few there today seemed to make a difference and that was Twickenham

Bloke who knows a bloke suggesting the RFU are planning for 15-25,000 for the 6N. Take that with your chosen level of salt

I think that must be BS. All depends on government restrictions and effectiveness of vaccine. Talk of delayed 6N for 2021

The pandemic might get worse after the holidays . They should do it in the summer June/ July instead of the summer tours.

Tend to only get pinged when go completely off feet anyway. So it sounds like the cynical strategy still works.

Celebrating in to the night.

Well, it’s much better than losing.

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:22 pm Well, it’s much better than losing.

You managed both

Ymx wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:07 pm Tend to only get pinged when go completely off feet anyway. So it sounds like the cynical strategy still works.

I don't know what to tell you other than what you're saying is the opposite of what I've seen happening for a while.

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:33 pm

Ymx wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:07 pm Tend to only get pinged when go completely off feet anyway. So it sounds like the cynical strategy still works.

I don't know what to tell you other than what you're saying is the opposite of what I've seen happening for a while.

You don’t need to say anything, I’m just being a tit.

Just zoomed in. Good old smirky.

Then noticed emoji. What is he doing/thinking?

Almost need a caption comp for this one. There’s a lot going on.

Shaun Edwards and Ugo on BT Rugby Tonight moaning about the ref not speaking French to the French team and how top class refs should learn a bit of the language.

I understand what they're saying, but that becomes unfeasible. How much Japanese, Georgian, Italian, Samoan etc are we expecting refs to pick up?

Refs having 3 or more languages under their belt is much harder to manage than getting all international teams to manage a bit of key English.

What could be changed is standardising what English speaking refs say, the phrases they use etc. This would also mitigate accent issues. An Italian, say, trying to decipher Nigel Owens speaking quickly at him with his particular blend of word salad is going to be tough; if he's using key phrases they've heard from other refs it gets a bit easier.

sockwithaticket wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:47 pm Shaun Edwards and Ugo on BT Rugby Tonight moaning about the ref not speaking French to the French team and how top class refs should learn a bit of the language.

I understand what they're saying, but that becomes unfeasible. How much Japanese, Georgian, Italian, Samoan etc are we expecting refs to pick up?

Refs having 3 or more languages under their belt is much harder to manage than getting all international teams to manage a bit of key English.

What could be changed is standardising what English speaking refs say, the phrases they use etc. This would also mitigate accent issues. An Italian, say, trying to decipher Nigel Owens speaking quickly at him with his particular blend of word salad is going to be tough; if he's using key phrases they've heard from other refs it gets a bit easier.

A good start would be refs just communicating the basics and not having running commentary with teams/players. Like you say, a standardised number of phrases in English to ref the game. Players know the fucking laws, there is no need for extra communication, that’s where it becomes unfair.

Hopefully would stop the incessant moaning and appealing which is ruining the game

If refs are going to communicate beyond basic phrases then yes they absolutely should speak French. I get the point with Spanish/Japanese etc however France are legitimate contenders for world champions with a mega pro league, and the others aren’t

Galthie is not amused.

Very strong for him. Para'ing "The match turned on decisions and not actions".

sockwithaticket wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:47 pm Shaun Edwards and Ugo on BT Rugby Tonight moaning about the ref not speaking French to the French team and how top class refs should learn a bit of the language.

I understand what they're saying, but that becomes unfeasible. How much Japanese, Georgian, Italian, Samoan etc are we expecting refs to pick up?

Refs having 3 or more languages under their belt is much harder to manage than getting all international teams to manage a bit of key English.

What could be changed is standardising what English speaking refs say, the phrases they use etc. This would also mitigate accent issues. An Italian, say, trying to decipher Nigel Owens speaking quickly at him with his particular blend of word salad is going to be tough; if he's using key phrases they've heard from other refs it gets a bit easier.

Hear all that and France has lived with that forever. Maybe it's worse now too with so much "coaching" going on from the refs: when there is none in any other sport. So France will always suffer at least microseconds of delay in comprehension.

But that is not what we are talking about here which is incompetent/homer reffing which is the same in any tongue.

Midi Olympique has highlighted all 3 of my complaints

1) Vunipola's knock on before the England try.
2) Villiere being penalised when Daley(?) was isolated on the kick through.
3) The fact that Macalou never touched the ball on the restart and so it was immediate pen against England for holding on and game over.

Just watched the lineout again. French hooker standing one side of the 22, throws the ball, French lock on the 22 line has to stretch and try to reach it with his outside arm but it's too far away, Curry knocks it on about 2ft past the 22m line. Hilariously squint throw.

I guess Midi just missed it.

I lack the skills to add the Benny Hill tune to this but yes, it's a shocker of a miss by the ref

https://giphy.com/gifs/72BUVN1pX2hPtzzS5s

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:53 pm Just watched the lineout again. French hooker standing one side of the 22, throws the ball, French lock on the 22 line has to stretch and try to reach it with his outside arm but it's too far away, Curry knocks it on about 2ft past the 22m line. Hilariously squint throw.

I guess Midi just missed it.

Woohoo. 1 bad call versus how many against France? And how many Eng lineouts were not straight?

The simple truth is that save for France’s indiscipline (and a bizarre call by Andrew Brace when he adjudged Sekou Macalou had knocked on) England would have lost.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/robbed-v ... gland-try/

The England lineouts were fine, you're flailing. That lineout led straight to France's try. It was a huge decision, but you're desperate to call the ref a cheat and pretend he only benefited England.

At least you've moved on from quoting Jake to back you up!

First offence in that penalised ruck is the French tackler not getting out of the channel, even worsehe rolls north south not east west.

Looked like it was a knock on live, and tmo can't interfere for that if it's not asked for i believe. Very unlucky but equally not a guaranteed kick over.

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:14 pm The England lineouts were fine, you're flailing. That lineout led straight to France's try. It was a huge decision, but you're desperate to call the ref a cheat and pretend he only benefited England.

At least you've moved on from quoting Jake to back you up!

I'll keep it simple for you since it seems all those drugs have taken their toll on your mental faculties.

Lineouts and scrum feeds are routinely ignored every game now. I know what the laws say but that is not how they are applied in NORMAL use. Maybe refs are trying to reduce stoppages. Maybe WR has secretly instructed them to go easy in a sport that is getting less watchable by the minute. But NORMAL is what it is.

What is not normal is playing on from knock ons or blatant pens. In the matter of a few moments, the same player (Vunipola)
- knocked on twice (I'll help you out here: that's 2 offences)
- pulled the ball back in on the 2nd one: that's a pen to France
- and France looked legitimately to have turned the ball over and were away only to be pinged and the pen awarded to England

So: 3 offences. Same player. In moments. And all 3 officials missed all of them but everyone else (except you did)? Beggars belief. At this level, they should be stood down.

Plenty of media coverage on the Macalou one. Jake or otherwise. With your current comprehension skillz, it seemed appropriate.

In summary , multiple f**k ups by the officials for things that are always pinged (when seen or not wantonly ignored) versus a single incident, which you were the only one to pick up on and which is consistently ignored by all refs, all the time. With your persistently distorted perspectives on every subject, you should volunteer for Trump's support team.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:59 am

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:14 pm The England lineouts were fine, you're flailing. That lineout led straight to France's try. It was a huge decision, but you're desperate to call the ref a cheat and pretend he only benefited England.

At least you've moved on from quoting Jake to back you up!

I'll keep it simple for you since it seems all those drugs have taken their toll on your mental faculties.

Lineouts and scrum feeds are routinely ignored every game now. I know what the laws say but that is not how they are applied in NORMAL use. Maybe refs are trying to reduce stoppages. Maybe WR has secretly instructed them to go easy in a sport that is getting less watchable by the minute. But NORMAL is what it is.

What is not normal is playing on from knock ons or blatant pens. In the matter of a few moments, the same player (Vunipola)
- knocked on twice (I'll help you out here: that's 2 offences)
- pulled the ball back in on the 2nd one: that's a pen to France
- and France looked legitimately to have turned the ball over and were away only to be pinged and the pen awarded to England

So: 3 offences. Same player. In moments. And all 3 officials missed all of them but everyone else (except you did)? Beggars belief. At this level, they should be stood down.

Plenty of media coverage on the Macalou one. Jake or otherwise. With your current comprehension skillz, it seemed appropriate.

In summary , multiple f**k ups by the officials for things that are always pinged (when seen or not wantonly ignored) versus a single incident, which you were the only one to pick up on and which is consistently ignored by all refs, all the time. With your persistently distorted perspectives on every subject, you should volunteer for Trump's support team.

Blimey, you don't half go on.

More from the not-Jake media:

Former England flyhalf Andy Goode has given a rather unique take on the performance of the TMO in England’s win over France in the finale of the Autumn Nations Cup, and why he may have missed a crucial knock-on late in the game.

“I think the TMO Ben Whitehouse had gone for a dump when Billy knocked this on in the lead up to the England try today to level it at the death. Either that or he was head down in the biscuit tin!

Longshanks wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:02 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:59 am

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:14 pm The England lineouts were fine, you're flailing. That lineout led straight to France's try. It was a huge decision, but you're desperate to call the ref a cheat and pretend he only benefited England.

At least you've moved on from quoting Jake to back you up!

I'll keep it simple for you since it seems all those drugs have taken their toll on your mental faculties.

Lineouts and scrum feeds are routinely ignored every game now. I know what the laws say but that is not how they are applied in NORMAL use. Maybe refs are trying to reduce stoppages. Maybe WR has secretly instructed them to go easy in a sport that is getting less watchable by the minute. But NORMAL is what it is.

What is not normal is playing on from knock ons or blatant pens. In the matter of a few moments, the same player (Vunipola)
- knocked on twice (I'll help you out here: that's 2 offences)
- pulled the ball back in on the 2nd one: that's a pen to France
- and France looked legitimately to have turned the ball over and were away only to be pinged and the pen awarded to England

So: 3 offences. Same player. In moments. And all 3 officials missed all of them but everyone else (except you did)? Beggars belief. At this level, they should be stood down.

Plenty of media coverage on the Macalou one. Jake or otherwise. With your current comprehension skillz, it seemed appropriate.

In summary , multiple f**k ups by the officials for things that are always pinged (when seen or not wantonly ignored) versus a single incident, which you were the only one to pick up on and which is consistently ignored by all refs, all the time. With your persistently distorted perspectives on every subject, you should volunteer for Trump's support team.

Blimey, you don't half go on.

Then put me on ignore and f**k off.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:07 am More from the not-Jake media:

Former England flyhalf Andy Goode has given a rather unique take on the performance of the TMO in England’s win over France in the finale of the Autumn Nations Cup, and why he may have missed a crucial knock-on late in the game.

“I think the TMO Ben Whitehouse had gone for a dump when Billy knocked this on in the lead up to the England try today to level it at the death. Either that or he was head down in the biscuit tin!

France got a few bad decisions against them. It happens. You expressed your view on that, you have a point.
Clearly the French try should have been disallowed too if we go by video reviews, but we can't. I wouldn't have begrudge France winning one bit. It was great to have a proper final than the one we all thought we'd see. Personally I thought England finished the stronger team and edged it. Thanks France it was great. WR will review the officiating.
Now let it go please.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:59 am

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:14 pm The England lineouts were fine, you're flailing. That lineout led straight to France's try. It was a huge decision, but you're desperate to call the ref a cheat and pretend he only benefited England.

At least you've moved on from quoting Jake to back you up!

I'll keep it simple for you since it seems all those drugs have taken their toll on your mental faculties.

Lineouts and scrum feeds are routinely ignored every game now. I know what the laws say but that is not how they are applied in NORMAL use. Maybe refs are trying to reduce stoppages. Maybe WR has secretly instructed them to go easy in a sport that is getting less watchable by the minute. But NORMAL is what it is.

What is not normal is playing on from knock ons or blatant pens. In the matter of a few moments, the same player (Vunipola)
- knocked on twice (I'll help you out here: that's 2 offences)
- pulled the ball back in on the 2nd one: that's a pen to France
- and France looked legitimately to have turned the ball over and were away only to be pinged and the pen awarded to England

So: 3 offences. Same player. In moments. And all 3 officials missed all of them but everyone else (except you did)? Beggars belief. At this level, they should be stood down.

Plenty of media coverage on the Macalou one. Jake or otherwise. With your current comprehension skillz, it seemed appropriate.

In summary , multiple f**k ups by the officials for things that are always pinged (when seen or not wantonly ignored) versus a single incident, which you were the only one to pick up on and which is consistently ignored by all refs, all the time. With your persistently distorted perspectives on every subject, you should volunteer for Trump's support team.

Lineouts like that are NOT consistently ignored by all refs all the time. It was ridiculous. Just because you're so one-eyed you didn't see it and the commentators didn't pick up on it - which let's face it is how the majority of the media and fans get their information - doesn't mean it didn't happen or that it wasn't a bad mistake.

Refs make mistakes. I don't think they had a good game at all. Some of the mistakes favoured England. Fewer favoured France (though one of them directly led to 7 points). God knows I've been annoyed at refereeing mistakes in the past.

But screaming abuse, hysterically crying about "cheating", repeatedly wishing death on a referee, and claiming conspiracy? That's pathetic behaviour. You don't have the intellectual honesty to admit that actually yes, that lineout was a big miss by the ref - it's not hard, but you can't bring yourself to do it - and accusing me of Trump-like behaviour given your frankly embarrasing meltdown on this thread is really quite special.

p.s. "all those drugs"? What on earth are you talking about?

It was a poor performance from the officials and France definately got the worst of it. I'd be pretty annoyed if it was my team on the end of it.

But to accuse them of cheating and deliberately favouring England should be below anyone who supports rugby.

Man, you never knew which French side will turn up. Will they send out the excellent established side or will they send out their 2x U20 World Championship side?

In the "crooked lineout camp" we have self pronounced arbiter on all matters moral, JMK.

Meantime, in the real world, some pretty strong stuff from rugby pros:



He might have been better at it than Farrell.

And there has been a severe backlash on the likes of Twatter by people more p*ssed off than I(again: why would someone in a high profile position like a rugby ref expose himself to social meejuh?)
Referee Andrew Brace has been subject to an appalling tirade of abuse online following his officiating of the Autumn Nations Cup final.

A very normal post by a very normal person having an entirely normal one, I see. No fucking clue what morality has to do with the obviously squint lineout, mind.

It'll absolutely amaze you to discover that no-one's arguing the referee didn't screw those decisions up, I'm sure. But hey, you seem happy to include yourself in the group of people giving him "an appalling tirade of abuse online" - hopefully you'll remember that the next time you try to sneer at football fans for their behaviour.

nO-oNe ApArT fRoM mEaNiE Jm2k6 sPoTtEd ThE lInEoUt

Well, if we're using twitter:

https://twitter.com/search?q=lineout%20 ... ery&f=live

7 out of the most recent 10 tweets for "lineout france" all talking about how squint that lineout was

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:17 pm A very normal post by a very normal person having an entirely normal one, I see. No fucking clue what morality has to do with the obviously squint lineout, mind.

It'll absolutely amaze you to discover that no-one's arguing the referee didn't screw those decisions up, I'm sure. But hey, you seem happy to include yourself in the group of people giving him "an appalling tirade of abuse online" - hopefully you'll remember that the next time you try to sneer at football fans for their behaviour.

There's a difference to abusing someone on a backwater forum (PR or NPR. Sorry ASMO ) and taking the same direct to the guy's door. Sure even your addled, moral arbitration can work that one out.

Re wendyball fans. Pretty sure rugby hasn't come close to this yet:

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/s ... ake-a-knee

but you are kinda right. I'm sure we'll get there.

"addled, moral arbitration"

"self pronounced arbiter on all matters moral"

"it seems all those drugs have taken their toll on your mental faculties"

"With your current comprehension skillz, it seemed appropriate"

"With your persistently distorted perspectives on every subject, you should volunteer for Trump's support team"

Imagine taking a defeat for your 3rd XV in the final of a phony tournament during a pandemic this personally!

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:31 pm nO-oNe ApArT fRoM mEaNiE Jm2k6 sPoTtEd ThE lInEoUt

Well, if we're using twitter:

https://twitter.com/search?q=lineout%20 ... ery&f=live

7 out of the most recent 10 tweets for "lineout france" all talking about how squint that lineout was

You searched for "lineout france" and got a 70% result. I'm shocked. Hey. You're the Twitter surfer. I have no idea how many posts that medium has (milions?) but would wager enough to find what you were looking for even if it were a quote from Lord Lucan on the game.
Changes nothing in terms of
- quantity: either the no of comments or the number of errors in the game
- or quality. None of those Twits are from rugby pros, national coaches or recognised journal outlets

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:51 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:31 pm nO-oNe ApArT fRoM mEaNiE Jm2k6 sPoTtEd ThE lInEoUt

Well, if we're using twitter:

https://twitter.com/search?q=lineout%20 ... ery&f=live

7 out of the most recent 10 tweets for "lineout france" all talking about how squint that lineout was

You searched for "lineout france" and got a 70% result. I'm shocked. Hey. You're the Twitter surfer. I have no idea how many post that medium has but would wager enough to find what you were looking for.

Literally just the most recent tweets. If it wasn't an issue you'd expect them all to be something along the lines of "france score off a lineout" rather than complaining about the illegality of the lineout. I didn't put in anything to make it skew towards discussing the decision / complaining about it.

Changes nothing in terms of
- quantity: either the no of comments or the number of errors in the game
- or quality. None of those Twits are from rugby pros, national coaches or recognised journal outlets

So what? You seem insistent that I'm the only person that spotted it. That's not my problem, and it's not true anyway. Regardless of who found it, it happened and the replay shows how egregious it was. It's absolutely no surprise to anyone that the stuff the broadcasting team picked up on is the stuff that gets more traction on social & traditional media, forums, etc.

No-one should wish death upon a referee or accuse him of being an outright cheat when he misses some obvious stuff. Especially not someone who spent most of the latter half of the game complaining about actually good decisions!

France were unfortunate and no-one is excusing the referee's mistakes. It's very strange that adding another big mistake to the list has sent you into such a spin and made you attack me repeatedly. It's almost like you're more interested in building a conspiracy theory and building up your grievances to make out the ref mistakes only benefited England than actually engaging in any kind of objectivity. Surely the fact that he fucked up so badly for France's try adds more grist to the mill about his overall quality and suitability for internationals?

It's really easy for me to say that France were unlucky at the end there, and with England's try as well. It's also really easy for me to say that France benefited hugely at the start with that try that should never have stood. Not sure why trying to add some perspective has led to a torrent of abuse, but, well, you do you I guess.

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:59 pm So what? You seem insistent that I'm the only person that spotted it. That's not my problem, and it's not true anyway. Regardless of who found it, it happened and the replay shows how egregious it was. It's absolutely no surprise to anyone that the stuff the broadcasting team picked up on is the stuff that gets more traction on social & traditional media, forums, etc.

No-one should wish death upon a referee or accuse him of being an outright cheat when he misses some obvious stuff. Especially not someone who spent most of the latter half of the game complaining about actually good decisions!

France were unfortunate and no-one is excusing the referee's mistakes. It's very strange that adding another big mistake to the list has sent you into such a spin and made you attack me repeatedly. It's almost like you're more interested in building a conspiracy theory and building up your grievances to make out the ref mistakes only benefited England than actually engaging in any kind of objectivity. Surely the fact that he fucked up so badly for France's try adds more grist to the mill about his overall quality and suitability for internationals?

It's really easy for me to say that France were unlucky at the end there, and with England's try as well. It's also really easy for me to say that France benefited hugely at the start with that try that should never have stood. Not sure why trying to add some perspective has led to a torrent of abuse, but, well, you do you I guess.

You've taken this pointless tournament far too seriously. Go take a nap.

You insist on this false equivalence. Again: no-one bothers any more on not straight lineouts or crooked scrum feeds (except BCM) because they are so routinely ignored. And it was one incident in which a try followed which would have been a try had the lineout been straight and France won it. Whereas the errors favouring England were multiple, cumulative and not from offences that no officials ignore except by incompetence or if their name is Joubert. Even if 2 wrongs made a right, which one of the ones in Eng's favour would you like to chalk off?

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:14 pmYou insist on this false equivalence. Again: no-one bothers any more on not straight lineouts or crooked scrum feeds (except BCM) because they are so routinely ignored. And it was one incident in which a try followed which would have been a try had the lineout been straight and France won it. Whereas the errors favouring England were multiple, cumulative and not from offences that no officials ignore except by incompetence or if their name is Joubert. Even if 2 wrongs made a right, which one of the ones in Eng's favour would you like to chalk off?

Two things Torq. Firstly, referees repeatedly call not straight lineouts. It's an absolute lie to pretend they're treated the same as scrum feeds, particularly in cases as obvious as that one. It's just absolutely dishonest: we see these called every game!

Secondly, why on earth do you think it "would have been a try had the lineout been straight and France won it"? It would have been a completely different scenario - the confusion caused by the wonky throw, the knock on, and the resulting scramble is one of the reasons why France scored.

I don't want you to "chalk off" anything. I want you to accept that the ref made mistakes that affected England too, including for 7 points of France's 19. It's not a conspiracy against the French. I literally said that England benefited more from his mistakes than France, but it's absurd to ignore the glaring mistake that led to France's opening try.

If my memory serves me correctly, I think there was a call for lineout in this very match that was called for not being straight? I could check, but can't really be bothered.

Longshanks wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:56 pm If my memory serves me correctly, I think there was a call for lineout in this very match that was called for not being straight? I could check, but can't really be bothered.

There was I believe.

Another point could be the French pullin youngs into the ruck when we were 2m out.

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:37 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:14 pmYou insist on this false equivalence. Again: no-one bothers any more on not straight lineouts or crooked scrum feeds (except BCM) because they are so routinely ignored. And it was one incident in which a try followed which would have been a try had the lineout been straight and France won it. Whereas the errors favouring England were multiple, cumulative and not from offences that no officials ignore except by incompetence or if their name is Joubert. Even if 2 wrongs made a right, which one of the ones in Eng's favour would you like to chalk off?

Two things Torq. Firstly, referees repeatedly call not straight lineouts. It's an absolute lie to pretend they're treated the same as scrum feeds, particularly in cases as obvious as that one. It's just absolutely dishonest: we see these called every game!

Secondly, why on earth do you think it "would have been a try had the lineout been straight and France won it"? It would have been a completely different scenario - the confusion caused by the wonky throw, the knock on, and the resulting scramble is one of the reasons why France scored.

I don't want you to "chalk off" anything. I want you to accept that the ref made mistakes that affected England too, including for 7 points of France's 19. It's not a conspiracy against the French. I literally said that England benefited more from his mistakes than France, but it's absurd to ignore the glaring mistake that led to France's opening try.

I’ve been one of many and often the first to tell Torque to stfu, as we have different views of the game/players, like at the beginning of this thread, but he’s completely right for being all pissy about this ref, it was a shame.

Quote from the Sun