inactionman wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 1:44 pm
I know it sounds weird, but it's Putin's treatment of his own countrymen that I find the most disturbing.
Fighting a war of conquest (for whatever reason - opening up warm weather ports, fossil fuels, food etc) at least has its own rationale and I can at least see why. I hate him for it, mind, and my heart bleeds for the Ukrainians, but I can comprehend it.
Just not giving a shit about people you're supposed to represent, not giving them food and shelter, medical aid, any means of defending themselves, up to the point of needlessly butchering them - it's just so callous, its so far beyond the pale.
I just can't fathom being in that position, but then I thought the same about 'soldiers' at Stalingrad just being sent into slaughter with one rifle between two men. It's such a weird culture. I read Dimbleby's travelogue of Russia and he admits to finding is a bleak, depressing place, there's' just something in the culture that is so sinister.
I read a lot of the Russian classics a few years back and always had a nagging feeling that I wasn't quite getting it. These are white Europeans, we must be quite similar. But even before this war was the realisation that we are incredibly different from them, more so than cultures much further afield. Odd bunch
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 7:06 pm
by Uncle fester
inactionman wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 1:44 pm
I know it sounds weird, but it's Putin's treatment of his own countrymen that I find the most disturbing.
Fighting a war of conquest (for whatever reason - opening up warm weather ports, fossil fuels, food etc) at least has its own rationale and I can at least see why. I hate him for it, mind, and my heart bleeds for the Ukrainians, but I can comprehend it.
Just not giving a shit about people you're supposed to represent, not giving them food and shelter, medical aid, any means of defending themselves, up to the point of needlessly butchering them - it's just so callous, its so far beyond the pale.
I just can't fathom being in that position, but then I thought the same about 'soldiers' at Stalingrad just being sent into slaughter with one rifle between two men. It's such a weird culture. I read Dimbleby's travelogue of Russia and he admits to finding is a bleak, depressing place, there's' just something in the culture that is so sinister.
It's harking back to a feudal attitude of personal glory and attainment being more important than the welfare of the polity that they govern.
Alternatively, they convince themselves that the two are one and the same.
inactionman wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 1:44 pm
I know it sounds weird, but it's Putin's treatment of his own countrymen that I find the most disturbing.
Fighting a war of conquest (for whatever reason - opening up warm weather ports, fossil fuels, food etc) at least has its own rationale and I can at least see why. I hate him for it, mind, and my heart bleeds for the Ukrainians, but I can comprehend it.
Just not giving a shit about people you're supposed to represent, not giving them food and shelter, medical aid, any means of defending themselves, up to the point of needlessly butchering them - it's just so callous, its so far beyond the pale.
I just can't fathom being in that position, but then I thought the same about 'soldiers' at Stalingrad just being sent into slaughter with one rifle between two men. It's such a weird culture. I read Dimbleby's travelogue of Russia and he admits to finding is a bleak, depressing place, there's' just something in the culture that is so sinister.
I read a lot of the Russian classics a few years back and always had a nagging feeling that I wasn't quite getting it. These are white Europeans, we must be quite similar. But even before this war was the realisation that we are incredibly different from them, more so than cultures much further afield. Odd bunch
I'm inclined to agree. I'm perhaps not as well-travelled as others on the board but I've been to many places in Asia, Australasia, Fiji, Japan, Africa, Israel, large parts of North America and most of Europe and I've never felt quite so unsettled and 'other' as I did in St Petersburg. and St Petersburg is probably the most cosmopolitan place in Russia.
There were some really pleasant people in the bars and restaurants, but any touch with officialdom or engagement with workaday people such as shop workers or ticket sellers was just so unpleasant - not exactly hostile, just notably cold, indecipherable and bizarrely work-to-rule even when it was clearly the wrong thing to do.
I haven't ever had that feeling elsewhere - I've struggled to read local customs and etiquette on countless occasions, but I've not sensed such disregard.
It didn't help that there's typically one queue and price set for Russians and one for non-Russians, and guess who gets the short end of the stick if spaces get tight or someone fancies jumping the queue. Not exactly endearing.
Thankfully I didn't note much mafia - my mate worked in Eastern Europe and can spot them a mile off, and advised giving them a very, very wide berth.
inactionman wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 1:44 pm
I know it sounds weird, but it's Putin's treatment of his own countrymen that I find the most disturbing.
Fighting a war of conquest (for whatever reason - opening up warm weather ports, fossil fuels, food etc) at least has its own rationale and I can at least see why. I hate him for it, mind, and my heart bleeds for the Ukrainians, but I can comprehend it.
Just not giving a shit about people you're supposed to represent, not giving them food and shelter, medical aid, any means of defending themselves, up to the point of needlessly butchering them - it's just so callous, its so far beyond the pale.
I just can't fathom being in that position, but then I thought the same about 'soldiers' at Stalingrad just being sent into slaughter with one rifle between two men. It's such a weird culture. I read Dimbleby's travelogue of Russia and he admits to finding is a bleak, depressing place, there's' just something in the culture that is so sinister.
I read a lot of the Russian classics a few years back and always had a nagging feeling that I wasn't quite getting it. These are white Europeans, we must be quite similar. But even before this war was the realisation that we are incredibly different from them, more so than cultures much further afield. Odd bunch
This gives a decent overview of why Russians are what they are.
inactionman wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 1:44 pm
I know it sounds weird, but it's Putin's treatment of his own countrymen that I find the most disturbing.
Fighting a war of conquest (for whatever reason - opening up warm weather ports, fossil fuels, food etc) at least has its own rationale and I can at least see why. I hate him for it, mind, and my heart bleeds for the Ukrainians, but I can comprehend it.
Just not giving a shit about people you're supposed to represent, not giving them food and shelter, medical aid, any means of defending themselves, up to the point of needlessly butchering them - it's just so callous, its so far beyond the pale.
I just can't fathom being in that position, but then I thought the same about 'soldiers' at Stalingrad just being sent into slaughter with one rifle between two men. It's such a weird culture. I read Dimbleby's travelogue of Russia and he admits to finding is a bleak, depressing place, there's' just something in the culture that is so sinister.
It's harking back to a feudal attitude of personal glory and attainment being more important than the welfare of the polity that they govern.
Alternatively, they convince themselves that the two are one and the same.
It's actually not feudal at all. At the core of feudalism was the concept of social contract; rights and obligations, checks and balances. Russian political and social constructs are based around despotism; you are a slave and exist solely to serve the whim of the tyrant, whether Tsarist, Communist, or Fascist.
inactionman wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 1:44 pm
I know it sounds weird, but it's Putin's treatment of his own countrymen that I find the most disturbing.
Fighting a war of conquest (for whatever reason - opening up warm weather ports, fossil fuels, food etc) at least has its own rationale and I can at least see why. I hate him for it, mind, and my heart bleeds for the Ukrainians, but I can comprehend it.
Just not giving a shit about people you're supposed to represent, not giving them food and shelter, medical aid, any means of defending themselves, up to the point of needlessly butchering them - it's just so callous, its so far beyond the pale.
I just can't fathom being in that position, but then I thought the same about 'soldiers' at Stalingrad just being sent into slaughter with one rifle between two men. It's such a weird culture. I read Dimbleby's travelogue of Russia and he admits to finding is a bleak, depressing place, there's' just something in the culture that is so sinister.
I read a lot of the Russian classics a few years back and always had a nagging feeling that I wasn't quite getting it. These are white Europeans, we must be quite similar. But even before this war was the realisation that we are incredibly different from them, more so than cultures much further afield. Odd bunch
I'm inclined to agree. I'm perhaps not as well-travelled as others on the board but I've been to many places in Asia, Australasia, Fiji, Japan, Africa, Israel, large parts of North America and most of Europe and I've never felt quite so unsettled and 'other' as I did in St Petersburg. and St Petersburg is probably the most cosmopolitan place in Russia.
There were some really pleasant people in the bars and restaurants, but any touch with officialdom or engagement with workaday people such as shop workers or ticket sellers was just so unpleasant - not exactly hostile, just notably cold, indecipherable and bizarrely work-to-rule even when it was clearly the wrong thing to do.
I haven't ever had that feeling elsewhere - I've struggled to read local customs and etiquette on countless occasions, but I've not sensed such disregard.
It didn't help that there's typically one queue and price set for Russians and one for non-Russians, and guess who gets the short end of the stick if spaces get tight or someone fancies jumping the queue. Not exactly endearing.
Thankfully I didn't note much mafia - my mate worked in Eastern Europe and can spot them a mile off, and advised giving them a very, very wide berth.
It's fairly straightforward. Russians do not trust other Russians, and they trust foreigners even less.
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:14 pm
by Hellraiser
The journo fúcks up the armour strength bit. Think he was mixing up the Leo 1 and Leo 2.
I read a lot of the Russian classics a few years back and always had a nagging feeling that I wasn't quite getting it. These are white Europeans, we must be quite similar. But even before this war was the realisation that we are incredibly different from them, more so than cultures much further afield. Odd bunch
I'm inclined to agree. I'm perhaps not as well-travelled as others on the board but I've been to many places in Asia, Australasia, Fiji, Japan, Africa, Israel, large parts of North America and most of Europe and I've never felt quite so unsettled and 'other' as I did in St Petersburg. and St Petersburg is probably the most cosmopolitan place in Russia.
There were some really pleasant people in the bars and restaurants, but any touch with officialdom or engagement with workaday people such as shop workers or ticket sellers was just so unpleasant - not exactly hostile, just notably cold, indecipherable and bizarrely work-to-rule even when it was clearly the wrong thing to do.
I haven't ever had that feeling elsewhere - I've struggled to read local customs and etiquette on countless occasions, but I've not sensed such disregard.
It didn't help that there's typically one queue and price set for Russians and one for non-Russians, and guess who gets the short end of the stick if spaces get tight or someone fancies jumping the queue. Not exactly endearing.
Thankfully I didn't note much mafia - my mate worked in Eastern Europe and can spot them a mile off, and advised giving them a very, very wide berth.
It's fairly straightforward. Russians do not trust other Russians, and they trust foreigners even less.
I'm sure they are deeply suspicious, with historically good reason, but that can't be the extent of it.
You don't need to trust someone to function normally. I'd say many in Israel have more reason to be distrustful of outsiders, and they're nothing like Russians (noting the significant Russian Jewish population)
I'm inclined to agree. I'm perhaps not as well-travelled as others on the board but I've been to many places in Asia, Australasia, Fiji, Japan, Africa, Israel, large parts of North America and most of Europe and I've never felt quite so unsettled and 'other' as I did in St Petersburg. and St Petersburg is probably the most cosmopolitan place in Russia.
There were some really pleasant people in the bars and restaurants, but any touch with officialdom or engagement with workaday people such as shop workers or ticket sellers was just so unpleasant - not exactly hostile, just notably cold, indecipherable and bizarrely work-to-rule even when it was clearly the wrong thing to do.
I haven't ever had that feeling elsewhere - I've struggled to read local customs and etiquette on countless occasions, but I've not sensed such disregard.
It didn't help that there's typically one queue and price set for Russians and one for non-Russians, and guess who gets the short end of the stick if spaces get tight or someone fancies jumping the queue. Not exactly endearing.
Thankfully I didn't note much mafia - my mate worked in Eastern Europe and can spot them a mile off, and advised giving them a very, very wide berth.
It's fairly straightforward. Russians do not trust other Russians, and they trust foreigners even less.
I'm sure they are deeply suspicious, with historically good reason, but that can't be the extent of it.
You don't need to trust someone to function normally. I'd say many in Israel have more reason to be distrustful of outsiders, and they're nothing like Russians (noting the significant Russian Jewish population)
That's a very Western mindset. It fails to understand just how corrupt and degraded Russian society is. In Russia there is only fucker and fuckee; everything is zero sum, even the most basic social interactions.
It's fairly straightforward. Russians do not trust other Russians, and they trust foreigners even less.
I'm sure they are deeply suspicious, with historically good reason, but that can't be the extent of it.
You don't need to trust someone to function normally. I'd say many in Israel have more reason to be distrustful of outsiders, and they're nothing like Russians (noting the significant Russian Jewish population)
That's a very Western mindset. It fails to understand just how corrupt and degraded Russian society is. In Russia there is only fucker and fuckee; everything is zero sum, even the most basic social interactions.
It's not much to do with a Western mindset, I get the Muscovy/Muscovite mindset as a phenomenon, I just don't really get why it's almost exclusive to Russia (name notwithstanding).
I'm inclined to agree. I'm perhaps not as well-travelled as others on the board but I've been to many places in Asia, Australasia, Fiji, Japan, Africa, Israel, large parts of North America and most of Europe and I've never felt quite so unsettled and 'other' as I did in St Petersburg. and St Petersburg is probably the most cosmopolitan place in Russia.
There were some really pleasant people in the bars and restaurants, but any touch with officialdom or engagement with workaday people such as shop workers or ticket sellers was just so unpleasant - not exactly hostile, just notably cold, indecipherable and bizarrely work-to-rule even when it was clearly the wrong thing to do.
I haven't ever had that feeling elsewhere - I've struggled to read local customs and etiquette on countless occasions, but I've not sensed such disregard.
It didn't help that there's typically one queue and price set for Russians and one for non-Russians, and guess who gets the short end of the stick if spaces get tight or someone fancies jumping the queue. Not exactly endearing.
Thankfully I didn't note much mafia - my mate worked in Eastern Europe and can spot them a mile off, and advised giving them a very, very wide berth.
It's fairly straightforward. Russians do not trust other Russians, and they trust foreigners even less.
I'm sure they are deeply suspicious, with historically good reason, but that can't be the extent of it.
You don't need to trust someone to function normally. I'd say many in Israel have more reason to be distrustful of outsiders, and they're nothing like Russians (noting the significant Russian Jewish population)
That's an interesting case study; because one of the things I noticed there was I was working with Jews from different Republics, & while the ones from Georgia were enthusiastically Israeli, the Russians were still Russian, & lived in Ghettos, & were less integrated than pretty much any other group, in a Country that is composed of hundreds of nationalities, who have as a National imperative that they integrate, or be destroyed.
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 9:55 pm
by Raggs
A lot of the Russians that come over to Israel aren't/weren't Jewish. They're Christian and they'd get a dodgy rabbi to sign a piece of paper etc so they could emigrate, get money, housing and generally set for a new and likely better life. Or they were already well off and connected, and spreading the family businesses etc.
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 10:48 pm
by fishfoodie
Raggs wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 9:55 pmA lot of the Russians that come over to Israel aren't/weren't Jewish. They're Christian and they'd get a dodgy rabbi to sign a piece of paper etc so they could emigrate, get money, housing and generally set for a new and likely better life. Or they were already well off and connected, and spreading the family businesses etc.
Or if one were being generous, one might say that they might meet the, "right of return", requirements, but they sure as shit weren't meeting the zionist ideals.
Yeah, It always struck me as distinctly racist that the Beta Israel Jews from Ethiopia have always been treated like crap, despite being able to meet every test the rabbinical councils set them, & who are very visible in the IDF, but some bum from buttfuck Idontknowhereistan could slide right on in to public housing with no questions asked.
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 9:12 am
by Hellraiser
Marders and Strykers have been seen past the second line west of Verbove.
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 9:31 am
by PornDog
I think the fact that they were subjugated by the Mongol Horde for a couple of centuries played a very big role in the formation of the type of society we see today in Russia.
Martin Sixmith did a great radio series on the history of Russia about 10-15 years ago. I think it was 2 series of 25 episodes, each about 30 mins long. Very enlightening. I think he also then turned it into a tv series as well, but haven't seen that.
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 10:17 am
by tabascoboy
Certainly seem to be preparations for a new round of mobilization albeit rather covert at the moment
1/ In another indication that a fresh wave of mobilisation may be coming, companies in Moscow are seeking to recruit an unprecedented number of specialists in managing military and mobilisation records – twice the peak number recorded during the last mobilisation.
Hellraiser wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 7:59 pm
This gives a decent overview of why Russians are what they are.
This is a great video.
It's really good.
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:04 pm
by tabascoboy
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And "sanctions don't work" #1476345
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 4:27 pm
by tabascoboy
No thread unroll for this yet, long series of tweets - I'll just paste in the first and last but worth checking out for the details
1/ A new analysis has found that mobilised Russians who have been sent to Ukraine have only survived, on average, for 4.5 months before being killed. One in five of the mobilised has not survived longer than eight weeks.
17/ Some regions, such as Buryatia, have been suffering disproportionate number of casualties. The CIT attributes this to an excessive level of mobilisation in such places; some researchers have pointed to systemic discrimination against the regions. /end
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 4:42 pm
by Flockwitt
Good article from the BBC on Ukraine aid: types and sources. Interestingly it's Norway that's spent the most by % of GDP.
There is no official confirmation from Russian authorities but it is reported that commander of the Black Sea Fleet, Admiral Viktor Nikolayevich Sokolov, died during today's missile strike in Sevastopol.
This would be a pretty big fish. The coming days will provide clarity as to whether this news is true.
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 9:19 pm
by fishfoodie
tabascoboy wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 4:27 pm
No thread unroll for this yet, long series of tweets - I'll just paste in the first and last but worth checking out for the details
1/ A new analysis has found that mobilised Russians who have been sent to Ukraine have only survived, on average, for 4.5 months before being killed. One in five of the mobilised has not survived longer than eight weeks.
17/ Some regions, such as Buryatia, have been suffering disproportionate number of casualties. The CIT attributes this to an excessive level of mobilisation in such places; some researchers have pointed to systemic discrimination against the regions. /end
No surprise. The Orc sausage machine is designed to enrich the recruiters, & keep senior officers in post, the life expectancy, & combat efficiency of the recruits doesn't figure in the top 20 requirements of the system !
I imagine the Ukrainians really grok this, but they still know they'll have to pay a price of blood to break them.
At the end of it all, the Russians are probably going to be left with the same demographic horror show they had at the end of WWII; with a huge gap in the number of young men of reproductive age, & a serious disparity in percentage of men & women in these age groups.
tabascoboy wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 4:27 pm
No thread unroll for this yet, long series of tweets - I'll just paste in the first and last but worth checking out for the details
1/ A new analysis has found that mobilised Russians who have been sent to Ukraine have only survived, on average, for 4.5 months before being killed. One in five of the mobilised has not survived longer than eight weeks.
17/ Some regions, such as Buryatia, have been suffering disproportionate number of casualties. The CIT attributes this to an excessive level of mobilisation in such places; some researchers have pointed to systemic discrimination against the regions. /end
No surprise. The Orc sausage machine is designed to enrich the recruiters, & keep senior officers in post, the life expectancy, & combat efficiency of the recruits doesn't figure in the top 20 requirements of the system !
I imagine the Ukrainians really grok this, but they still know they'll have to pay a price of blood to break them.
At the end of it all, the Russians are probably going to be left with the same demographic horror show they had at the end of WWII; with a huge gap in the number of young men of reproductive age, & a serious disparity in percentage of men & women in these age groups.
I've seen one analysis of Russian military budget figures that suggests from official payments to next of kin that they've suffered at least 350k KIA and over 800k wounded. That is well in excess of what even the Ukrainians are claiming, so probably represents a massive amount of fraud. At the same time there is only so much fraud that can be committed without unignorable red flags going up in Moscow. The long and short being that the Ukrainian figures are starting to look more and more realistic as time goes by.
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2023 1:12 pm
by tabascoboy
Maybe this isn't a "maybe" this time...
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:10 pm
by Flockwitt
I much prefer the French method where all such transfers are considered military secrets and not public knowledge. Unfortunately politicians have to play politics, and there is a certain need for transparency in some countries.
Flockwitt wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:10 pm
I much prefer the French method where all such transfers are considered military secrets and not public knowledge. Unfortunately politicians have to play politics, and there is a certain need for transparency in some countries.
'Look Ukraine have just used our weapons to kill loads of Dussians. Aren't we great'.
I don't see the upside in advertising this constantly
It is a single line in an article. The importance of supply weapons with a greater range is significant. The UK despite being shit in many ways has actually been very good in this area with Ukraine and being willing to be public made it easier for others to supply similar weapons.
I am delighted our weapons (many of which would obsolete in the near future) are blowing the shit out Russians considering they have infected our politics and media and done significant damage to the UK.
Flockwitt wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:10 pm
I much prefer the French method where all such transfers are considered military secrets and not public knowledge. Unfortunately politicians have to play politics, and there is a certain need for transparency in some countries.
Flockwitt wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:10 pm
I much prefer the French method where all such transfers are considered military secrets and not public knowledge. Unfortunately politicians have to play politics, and there is a certain need for transparency in some countries.
More commonly known as a surrender...
rancid bait. not biting .
Spoiler
Show
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:49 pm
by TB63
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 1:53 pm
by tabascoboy
In the latest "Let's all facepalm at Russia" entry...
The russian Ministry of Internal Affairs has put the leadership of the International Criminal Court on the wanted list, – according to the russian media, citing the database of the russian Ministry of Internal Affairs.
The wanted list includes ICC President Piotr Hofmanski, First Vice President Luz Del Carmen Ibáñez Carranza and Judge Bertram Schmitt. The cards indicate that they are wanted under an article of the russian Criminal Code, but it is not specified under which article.
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:16 am
by TB63
More information about yesterday’s Khalino military airfield incident. As per Main Directorate of Intelligence of Ukraine:
At the airfield "Khalino" in the Kursk region, a Ukrainian drone was landed by Russian electronic warfare systems on the runway. When the leadership of the aviation regiment and FSB officers arrived for closer inspection drone exploded. As claimed, the following were killed or injured during the explosion:
→ commander of the 14th aviation regiment;
→ one of his deputies;
→ a group of aviator officers;
→ a representative of the FSB military counterintelligence;
→ airport employees.
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 11:03 am
by tabascoboy
Some reports that Russia is seeking to rejoin the UN Human Rights Council - presumably a cynical attempt to derail the ongoing investigation and say "But it was all faked by the Ukraine Nazis!"
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 11:15 am
by TB63
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 11:33 am
by tabascoboy
Edited to add a 'user' comment
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 2:26 pm
by Hellraiser
Re: What's going on in Ukraine?
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:08 am
by tabascoboy
RU still trying to present that Sokolov is alive through videos, but one commentator believes this is from at least a few days before the attack. Neither of the recent videos explicitly has Sokolov saying anything about the attack itself or how he survived...
The russian Ministry of Internal Affairs has put the leadership of the International Criminal Court on the wanted list, – according to the russian media, citing the database of the russian Ministry of Internal Affairs.