NPR

I am also flummoxed why anyone would say that in this space. Knowing full well politicians live and die by their words.

Ymx wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:08 pm I am also flummoxed why anyone would say that in this space. Knowing full well politicians live and die by their words.

Largely the words they use in public, not in private.

Although there's plenty of pretty gross Tories who've survived (and thrived) despite saying some pretty odious things.



Like the Prime Minister, for example.

Slick wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:16 pm I have to say, there is something not quite right about this to me.

However shit they all are I just can’t imagine anyone saying anything like that. Just doesn’t make sense

When you consider Fabricant was just on the radio saying "she is hardly someone who’s obviously Muslim” and because of this "seems a lame excuse she was sacked because of that”

Well.

One of the more lamentable parts of recent revelations is that Michael Fabricant is being given large amounts of time in front of a microphone.

Hal Jordan wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:05 pm One of the more lamentable parts of recent revelations is that Michael Fabricant is being given large amounts of time in front of a microphone.

With that dead ferret on his head "he is hardly someone who’s obviously a legitimate user of oxygen”

Statement in response to Boris and that slimy peiceof shit Raab.




Clearly they must now investigate.Raab should stfu an apologise as shoulda few others.
The battle lines are drawn now it's civil war Javid and Zahawi and Mordant openly supporting Ghani.

The Tory Party is clearlty a racist organisation and decent MPs need to resign and split from it and show some conviction.
Surely the Police need to be involved

C69 wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:33 pm Statement in response to Boris and that slimy peiceof shit Raab.




Clearly they must now investigate.Raab should stfu an apologise as shoulda few others.
The battle lines are drawn now it's civil war Javid and Zahawi and Mordant openly supporting Ghani.

The Tory Party is clearlty a racist organisation and decent MPs need to resign and split from it and show some conviction.
Surely the Police need to be involved

Raab is funny as he gets wound up when being sent out to be humiliated on behalf of his master. An important Johnson bootlicker.

Instead of a simple conciliatory statement with a view to investigating (even if just empty words), the immediate response has been all about individuals falling over themselves covering their collective asses. This Government really is setting an extreme example of how not to do good PR.

The Fabricant stuff is just bizarre. I have semi regular dealings with the local council for Cricket Club stuff. Tory dominated council, a few chancers and self-aggrandisers but largely pretty sensible people, often run reasonably successful businesses, strong sense of civic duty. Fascinated that people like that get overlooked to be Parliamentary candidates for the clowns that do.

tabascoboy wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:24 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:05 pm One of the more lamentable parts of recent revelations is that Michael Fabricant is being given large amounts of time in front of a microphone.

With that dead ferret on his head "he is hardly someone who’s obviously a legitimate user of oxygen”

Whenever Frabric head posts anything on twitter the wig based jokes on reply are a joy to follow.

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:44 pm The Fabricant stuff is just bizarre. I have semi regular dealings with the local council for Cricket Club stuff. Tory dominated council, a few chancers and self-aggrandisers but largely pretty sensible people, often run reasonably successful businesses, strong sense of civic duty. Fascinated that people like that get overlooked to be Parliamentary candidates for the clowns that do.

Do those people actively want to be MPs though?

Saw a snippet of the old dirty dossier on Tory MPs earlier. Almost looks like some people are selected because there is dirt on them.

At least one name in the media lately supposedly has a piss video circulating.

tabascoboy wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:26 pm

How the feck can Fabric cunt nothave the whip removed forthat comment.
Tbh how can anyone who is Muslim remain in a party that allows such racism?

To return to an interesting discussion from the summer about the GLP and procedurally abusive JRs, I see that Jolyon lost another one last week.

Top work Mr Maugham, and all with your funders’ money!

So, forcing the government into lengthy and wasteful litigation that could have made no difference to anyone whatever the outcome - about an action that was always lawful anyway…not politically motivated and pointless then?

C69 wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:33 pm Statement in response to Boris and that slimy peiceof shit Raab.




Clearly they must now investigate.Raab should stfu an apologise as shoulda few others.
The battle lines are drawn now it's civil war Javid and Zahawi and Mordant openly supporting Ghani.

The Tory Party is clearlty a racist organisation and decent MPs need to resign and split from it and show some conviction.
Surely the Police need to be involved

Historically the Whips Office wasn't a one way street to berate the lowly backbenchers. It was also used to feedback to No.10 what the backbenchers were thinking, in general and on specific topics. These days, and it's not just a BoJo thing the Whips office is increasingly seen by the executive as just their operation to control the underlings, and in the Tory party that's come around at the same time as a bunch of typically younger and newer MPs in the Red Wall who're more prone to wanting to think for themselves, and then owing to the pandemic they've spent less time in and around parliament building personal relationships

That said not all Labour MPs left the Labour Party when they've had a few issues at times, still do. And on this latest it's a bit he said/she said so far, although form for No. 10 right now is to deny and then sit back and panic as the evidence starts flowing

Rishi Sunak now referring to 'the Prime Minister's tax'.

Plim wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:19 pm To return to an interesting discussion from the summer about the GLP and procedurally abusive JRs, I see that Jolyon lost another one last week.

Top work Mr Maugham, and all with your funders’ money!

So, forcing the government into lengthy and wasteful litigation that could have made no difference to anyone whatever the outcome - about an action that was always lawful anyway…not politically motivated and pointless then?

The Gove thing? Do you not think that it having to be overturned on appeal suggests that there was plenty of merit to it to begin with? Does them losing a case - despite all their successes - suddenly damage their credibility?

Any comment about their successful case about the VIP lane being unlawful? Or are you more interested in bitching about the GLP than, you know, this government pissing away billions of pounds of public money to their mates in extremely dubious circumstances? I know which one I think is more important.

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:16 pm

Plim wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:19 pm To return to an interesting discussion from the summer about the GLP and procedurally abusive JRs, I see that Jolyon lost another one last week.

Top work Mr Maugham, and all with your funders’ money!

So, forcing the government into lengthy and wasteful litigation that could have made no difference to anyone whatever the outcome - about an action that was always lawful anyway…not politically motivated and pointless then?

The Gove thing? Do you not think that it having to be overturned on appeal suggests that there was plenty of merit to it to begin with? Does them losing a case - despite all their successes - suddenly damage their credibility?

Any comment about their successful case about the VIP lane being unlawful? Or are you more interested in bitching about the GLP than, you know, this government pissing away billions of pounds of public money to their mates in extremely dubious circumstances? I know which one I think is more important.

How dare citizens question their leaders. Fucking Plebs !

So the Cabinet Office will now investigate racism towards a former Goverment Minister.
Ironically she was racially abused for not seemingly supporting the Government when they were being looked at for racial abuse in the Party

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:16 pm

Plim wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:19 pm To return to an interesting discussion from the summer about the GLP and procedurally abusive JRs, I see that Jolyon lost another one last week.

Top work Mr Maugham, and all with your funders’ money!

So, forcing the government into lengthy and wasteful litigation that could have made no difference to anyone whatever the outcome - about an action that was always lawful anyway…not politically motivated and pointless then?

The Gove thing? Do you not think that it having to be overturned on appeal suggests that there was plenty of merit to it to begin with? Does them losing a case - despite all their successes - suddenly damage their credibility?

Any comment about their successful case about the VIP lane being unlawful? Or are you more interested in bitching about the GLP than, you know, this government pissing away billions of pounds of public money to their mates in extremely dubious circumstances? I know which one I think is more important.

Oh right, so successful appeals don’t really reverse anything. Better tell that to everyone whose criminal conviction has ever been quashed.

Have you actually read the VIP lane judgment? GLP didn’t win in any sense other than a very limited, technical and pointless one. The judge refused them declaratory relief altogether. That judgment isn’t what the GLP has spun. Thoroughgoing waste of time and money.

fishfoodie wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:48 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:16 pm

Plim wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:19 pm To return to an interesting discussion from the summer about the GLP and procedurally abusive JRs, I see that Jolyon lost another one last week.

Top work Mr Maugham, and all with your funders’ money!

So, forcing the government into lengthy and wasteful litigation that could have made no difference to anyone whatever the outcome - about an action that was always lawful anyway…not politically motivated and pointless then?

The Gove thing? Do you not think that it having to be overturned on appeal suggests that there was plenty of merit to it to begin with? Does them losing a case - despite all their successes - suddenly damage their credibility?

Any comment about their successful case about the VIP lane being unlawful? Or are you more interested in bitching about the GLP than, you know, this government pissing away billions of pounds of public money to their mates in extremely dubious circumstances? I know which one I think is more important.

How dare citizens question their leaders. Fucking Plebs !

How dare people vote in a government that Jolyon Maugham QC disapproves of! Fucking plebs!

fishfoodie wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:48 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:16 pm

Plim wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:19 pm To return to an interesting discussion from the summer about the GLP and procedurally abusive JRs, I see that Jolyon lost another one last week.

Top work Mr Maugham, and all with your funders’ money!

So, forcing the government into lengthy and wasteful litigation that could have made no difference to anyone whatever the outcome - about an action that was always lawful anyway…not politically motivated and pointless then?

The Gove thing? Do you not think that it having to be overturned on appeal suggests that there was plenty of merit to it to begin with? Does them losing a case - despite all their successes - suddenly damage their credibility?

Any comment about their successful case about the VIP lane being unlawful? Or are you more interested in bitching about the GLP than, you know, this government pissing away billions of pounds of public money to their mates in extremely dubious circumstances? I know which one I think is more important.

How dare citizens question their leaders. Fucking Plebs !

On which point the decision the GLP lacked standing presents something of a problem

So Sue Gray is going to speak to number 10 met police about what they know.

We're really in a place where the government is questioning the police and the police refuse to question the government. Banana monarchy.

That's the speculation, the Met and Dom Cum

Iain(bobbity) wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:50 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:44 pm The Fabricant stuff is just bizarre. I have semi regular dealings with the local council for Cricket Club stuff. Tory dominated council, a few chancers and self-aggrandisers but largely pretty sensible people, often run reasonably successful businesses, strong sense of civic duty. Fascinated that people like that get overlooked to be Parliamentary candidates for the clowns that do.

Do those people actively want to be MPs though?

Saw a snippet of the old dirty dossier on Tory MPs earlier. Almost looks like some people are selected because there is dirt on them.

At least one name in the media lately supposedly has a piss video circulating.

Yeah I guess this is a major factor. Dispiriting, someone like Fabricant will always sneak into politics but shouldn't be rising higher than sorting benches for a parish council.

Plim wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:30 am

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:16 pm

Plim wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:19 pm To return to an interesting discussion from the summer about the GLP and procedurally abusive JRs, I see that Jolyon lost another one last week.

Top work Mr Maugham, and all with your funders’ money!

So, forcing the government into lengthy and wasteful litigation that could have made no difference to anyone whatever the outcome - about an action that was always lawful anyway…not politically motivated and pointless then?

The Gove thing? Do you not think that it having to be overturned on appeal suggests that there was plenty of merit to it to begin with? Does them losing a case - despite all their successes - suddenly damage their credibility?

Any comment about their successful case about the VIP lane being unlawful? Or are you more interested in bitching about the GLP than, you know, this government pissing away billions of pounds of public money to their mates in extremely dubious circumstances? I know which one I think is more important.

Oh right, so successful appeals don’t really reverse anything. Better tell that to everyone whose criminal conviction has ever been quashed.

Have you actually read the VIP lane judgment? GLP didn’t win in any sense other than a very limited, technical and pointless one. The judge refused them declaratory relief altogether. That judgment isn’t what the GLP has spun. Thoroughgoing waste of time and money.

Pretty disingenuous of you there. Losing on appeal = proof that the case never had any merit (lol). Winning on the basis of the "limited, technical, and pointless" fact that the Tories acted illegally by giving companies preferential treatment = irrelevant, waste of time and money. Just like when Hancock was found to have acted unlawfully by not publishing details of the contracts the government signed in a reasonable length of time (another GLP case).

I'm sure the GLP look dreadful if any of their losses are to be taken as evidence of incompetence and their victories handwaved away.

Something quite odd about watching a smart person react to the unlawful behaviour of a government mired in corruption, acting ever more ludicrously, and being credibly accused of more and more illegal behaviour on a weekly basis - and choosing to go to bat for them in cases regarding laws that there to prevent corruption, and attacking the crowd funded lawyers with the irritatingly good success rate. Interesting angle, for sure.

Your concern for the people putting their money in is quite sweet, albeit not exactly convincingly genuine. However, I'm pretty sure this isn't kickstarter and none of them will be expecting a successful outcome in every single case.

My feeling on the GLP is:
* Whatever they are costing the government is relatively tiny. Anyone having conniptions about the cost to the public purse could find much worse to get upset about (particularly after the last couple of years).
* Vexatious litigation only works against people for whom the cost in time and / or money of defending themselves is a problem. Obviously this doesn't apply to the government, who can just pay lawyers to do it.
* Lawfare by definition can only be successful if the government are acting illegally. And if they are, I'd like them to stop doing so. So lawfare == good.
* As for their private sponsors - I'm enough of a capitalist / libertarian to think it's their business how they spend their money

So if they lose - meh, whatever, law & constitution working correctly. Good.

If they win - government brought to account by the law. Good.

Mahoney wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:56 am My feeling on the GLP is:
* Whatever they are costing the government is relatively tiny. Anyone having conniptions about the cost to the public purse could find much worse to get upset about (particularly after the last couple of years).
* Vexatious litigation only works against people for whom the cost in time and / or money of defending themselves is a problem. Obviously this doesn't apply to the government, who can just pay lawyers to do it.
* Lawfare by definition can only be successful if the government are acting illegally. And if they are, I'd like them to stop doing so. So lawfare == good.
* As for their private sponsors - I'm enough of a capitalist / libertarian to think it's their business how they spend their money

So if they lose - meh, whatever, law & constitution working correctly. Good.

If they win - government brought to account by the law. Good.

Just me that see's the met police behaviour with the parties, and wonders if the judicial system is much better?

Raggs wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:16 am

Mahoney wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:56 am My feeling on the GLP is:
* Whatever they are costing the government is relatively tiny. Anyone having conniptions about the cost to the public purse could find much worse to get upset about (particularly after the last couple of years).
* Vexatious litigation only works against people for whom the cost in time and / or money of defending themselves is a problem. Obviously this doesn't apply to the government, who can just pay lawyers to do it.
* Lawfare by definition can only be successful if the government are acting illegally. And if they are, I'd like them to stop doing so. So lawfare == good.
* As for their private sponsors - I'm enough of a capitalist / libertarian to think it's their business how they spend their money

So if they lose - meh, whatever, law & constitution working correctly. Good.

If they win - government brought to account by the law. Good.

Just me that see's the met police behaviour with the parties, and wonders if the judicial system is much better?

Appropriately enough, one of the GLP cases is regarding the Met's refusal to investigate...

I think it's fair to separate police from the judiciary, though that's not to say the latter are problem-free.

For now this item not behind a paywall

Police officers who guard Downing Street have been interviewed by Sue Gray for the “partygate” investigation, The Telegraph can disclose.

Members of the Metropolitan Police’s Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Command who were on duty when a string of lockdown-breaking gatherings are alleged to have taken place have provided detailed testimonies about what they witnessed.

The statements, described by one source as “extremely damning”, are expected to form a key part of Ms Gray’s report, which is due to be published within days.

The senior civil servant has also spoken to the Prime Minister, civil servants and political advisers, and accessed security pass logs and even Boris Johnson’s official diary.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... t-parties/

If that key part of her report isn't in the conclusions it's possible we'll never know. At least it's perfectly normal to only publish the conclusions. Though this time around they'll be significant pressure to release the whole thing in unredacted fashion, and it'd surprise no one if there was a leak absent that happening.

A line they had on the News Quiz on Friday night is this has ruined the rest of Sue Gray's life, in that any social event she now attends will have people coming up to ask if this is a party

The worry with the GLP is that the more the judiciary is asking to involve itself in politics the more political it will become. There are good and bad British judges but we don't have a system like the Americans where everyone in politics knows the political views of all judges above a certain level and they are appointed on that basis.

Even with what's currently going on, public opinion is going to be a far more effective remedy for what Boris is up to than anything an inquiry or the courts can come up with IMHO.

It's only happening because of an unprecedented amount of legally dubious activity from the government. We've never needed the involvement of the judiciary to this extent in my lifetime.

We can return back to the norm once this sorry shower are sent packing at the next election (I live in hope).

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:04 pm It's only happening because of an unprecedented amount of legally dubious activity from the government. We've never needed the involvement of the judiciary to this extent in my lifetime.

We can return back to the norm once this sorry shower are sent packing at the next election (I live in hope).

If that's the case I think it's fair enough, my worry is putting the genie back in the bottle. Any multi millionaire could hamstring any government doing the same in reverse if they wished as it stands. Ultimately politicians need to be judged by voters, appreciate there are deficiencies in this but I think it's better than the alternatives.

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:04 pm It's only happening because of an unprecedented amount of legally dubious activity from the government. We've never needed the involvement of the judiciary to this extent in my lifetime.

We can return back to the norm once this sorry shower are sent packing at the next election (I live in hope).

One of the potential problems with GLP's actions is that is is feeding into the narrative being promulgated by the Tories and right wing papers and websites that 'leftie lawyers' are using these legal actions to frustrate 'the will of the people' (for which read whatever actions the Government is taking). The Tories have already done great damage to the UK's justice system since 2010, effectively removing access to justice for large swathes of the population. They are now turning their attention to the Judicial Review process, and seem intent on reducing its impact on ministerial decisions, and are using the multiple GLP actions as justification. There is a clear danger that, by the time this shower are voted out, the Justice system will be in such tatters, that it will take an age to repair.

I'm not suggesting that GLP shouldn't proceed to try and hold the Government to account, but I would prefer it if they concentrated more on cases that will have a material impact on the Government's policies and actions, rather than obtaining technical judgements that have little or no impact on how the Government behaves.

Lobby wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:26 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:04 pm It's only happening because of an unprecedented amount of legally dubious activity from the government. We've never needed the involvement of the judiciary to this extent in my lifetime.

We can return back to the norm once this sorry shower are sent packing at the next election (I live in hope).

One of the potential problems with GLP's actions is that is is feeding into the narrative being promulgated by the Tories and right wing papers and websites that 'leftie lawyers' are using these legal actions to frustrate 'the will of the people' (for which read whatever actions the Government is taking). The Tories have already done great damage to the UK's justice system since 2010, effectively removing access to justice for large swathes of the population. They are now turning their attention to the Judicial Review process, and seem intent on reducing its impact on ministerial decisions, and are using the multiple GLP actions as justification. There is a clear danger that, by the time this shower are voted out, the Justice system will be in such tatters, that it will take an age to repair.

I'm not suggesting that GLP shouldn't proceed to try and hold the Government to account, but I would prefer it if they concentrated more on cases that will have a material impact on the Government's policies and actions, rather than obtaining technical judgements that have little or no impact on how the Government behaves.

But a large part of the problem is that decisions & laws are being enacted, without any scrutiny from the MPs, that are supposed to be representing the citizens !

This Government has been given enormous powers, & has abused them repeatedly; & it's only now that MPs, (and the Speaker), are starting to stand up on the hind legs; to call the Government to account; & it's still pretty pathetic.

fishfoodie wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:35 pm

Lobby wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:26 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:04 pm It's only happening because of an unprecedented amount of legally dubious activity from the government. We've never needed the involvement of the judiciary to this extent in my lifetime.

We can return back to the norm once this sorry shower are sent packing at the next election (I live in hope).

One of the potential problems with GLP's actions is that is is feeding into the narrative being promulgated by the Tories and right wing papers and websites that 'leftie lawyers' are using these legal actions to frustrate 'the will of the people' (for which read whatever actions the Government is taking). The Tories have already done great damage to the UK's justice system since 2010, effectively removing access to justice for large swathes of the population. They are now turning their attention to the Judicial Review process, and seem intent on reducing its impact on ministerial decisions, and are using the multiple GLP actions as justification. There is a clear danger that, by the time this shower are voted out, the Justice system will be in such tatters, that it will take an age to repair.

I'm not suggesting that GLP shouldn't proceed to try and hold the Government to account, but I would prefer it if they concentrated more on cases that will have a material impact on the Government's policies and actions, rather than obtaining technical judgements that have little or no impact on how the Government behaves.

But a large part of the problem is that decisions & laws are being enacted, without any scrutiny from the MPs, that are supposed to be representing the citizens !

This Government has been given enormous powers, & has abused them repeatedly; & it's only now that MPs, (and the Speaker), are starting to stand up on the hind legs; to call the Government to account; & it's still pretty pathetic.

The Speaker is making no stand, other than on ties and sometimes asking people to shush a little, for now he's much more concerned he doesn't miss out on a peerage. More broadly the argument such problems are political is not without merit, and that is a concern if you're far from enamoured with the political system itself and the prospects therein for change

Lobby wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:26 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:04 pm It's only happening because of an unprecedented amount of legally dubious activity from the government. We've never needed the involvement of the judiciary to this extent in my lifetime.

We can return back to the norm once this sorry shower are sent packing at the next election (I live in hope).

One of the potential problems with GLP's actions is that is is feeding into the narrative being promulgated by the Tories and right wing papers and websites that 'leftie lawyers' are using these legal actions to frustrate 'the will of the people' (for which read whatever actions the Government is taking). The Tories have already done great damage to the UK's justice system since 2010, effectively removing access to justice for large swathes of the population. They are now turning their attention to the Judicial Review process, and seem intent on reducing its impact on ministerial decisions, and are using the multiple GLP actions as justification. There is a clear danger that, by the time this shower are voted out, the Justice system will be in such tatters, that it will take an age to repair.

I'm not suggesting that GLP shouldn't proceed to try and hold the Government to account, but I would prefer it if they concentrated more on cases that will have a material impact on the Government's policies and actions, rather than obtaining technical judgements that have little or no impact on how the Government behaves.

If it wasn't GLP, it would be some other person or organisation, e.g. Gina Miller. They just want accountability gone, so they can cream off the public purse, enact shitheel legislation and put out bullshit populist dogwhistles to ensure reelection.

Yeah, my problem is no-one else has the ability to hold them to account. In an ideal world the GLP would have nothing to do.