TheNatalShark wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:27 pm
Gilchrist can shoulder a lot of the blame for giving so much momentum to Ulster at the end.
Would've been slaughtered in the final but it's these moments that would just compound any mentality that they aren't good enough to win when it matters.
Aye for his 150th game he let Edinburgh down big time. Gilchrist shows Edinburgh and Scotland's biggest problem. A lot of guys like him Cockers and Scotland coaches have got to overachieve. He is a good player but not great. And in the bigger matches he's exposed.
Aye right enough that would be why peak Toulon wanted him as a replacement for Paul O'Connell.
I mean, you could point to him making a difference in the big games but if all Gilchrist has is mad mourad being interested years ago I think proves my point.
Funnily enough Toulon were last good when Cockers had a holiday there. Partly because they sign ordinary players. Gilchrist is good, he'll do a great job in the Pro14 regular season but he won't in the knockouts. That's not the level he's at.
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:30 pm
by Yr Alban
FFS. Home semi, against a team who aren’t any great shakes, and Edinburgh manage to fuck it up. How Scottish can you get?
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:37 pm
by Tichtheid
As I was saying elsewhere, there is still something seriously wrong/unprofessional in Scottish rugby. Nasi Manu couldn't believe we didn't have sports psychologists when he rocked up at Edinburgh, Cockerill couldn't believe we didn't have specialist throwing coaches for the lineout when he first arrived.
We are still a ways behind the rest in terms of professionalism.
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:45 pm
by Biffer
We shat the bed in the last twenty minutes. Murphy helped them out big style, but blame lands with Edinburgh.
As I said last night, buggering about with crap kicks in the 22 when they should be belting it down field and making touch. Over and over again
I think the kick to tackle the catcher tactic is better than that. From a lineout the opposition can launch an attack or kick the ball back. Kick to tackle the catcher you have a very difficult ruck because if timed right the tackler is going backwards fast and the supporting Ulster players are back foot entering the ruck whereas the Edinburgh players are charging up with a good chance of a turnover or messy ball anyway. So you either have good territory or real pressure. Edinburgh pulled it off well all season and yesterday it worked okay.
Edinburgh didn't take their chances and were let down by lazy play. McFarland made all the difference the Ulster subs were on at the right time and took the game from Edinburgh. Also whatever he did tactically to take VdM out of the fake the second half worked a charm. Ulster are a good side with a very good pack, good backs and excellent coaching.
Mentality is a real issue but we don't know enough what's done behind the scenes with it. I know Damien Hughes has been involved with Scotland and I think in that Matt Smith article he said Glasgow had a psychologist. I think Edinburgh are a semi final team.
The finalists and winners pass when in the spot Dean was, kick when in the spot Bennett was, and roll away from rucks. I don't think Edinburgh can improve much from where they are now. Being in the fight is key but in big big games you need good players 1-23. As I say it's Scotland key problem too. Some real star quality at some spots and some fine but limited players costing you in the others.
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:47 pm
by Slick
I’m not saying it’s not a valid tactic but in that 1st half Edinburgh were clearly the better team but spent at least 20 minutes defending in their 22, or close. Same in the 2nd half.
That was unsustainable and they needed to change kick tactics and just give themselves a bit of relief
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:13 pm
by Steve
Do you want the wooden spoon now or in March?
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:59 am
by KingBlairhorn
There are a lot of very disappointed posts here, clearly. My own view echoes most of it - they weren't good enough on the day and to lose it from a winning position is galling. One or two key moments in the first half went against them - I think there were two or possibly three clean breaks where all that was missing was the final pass to multiple overlapping players. These are the moments you must execute if you want to be a top team.
I think this is a milestone moment for Edinburgh. They do have the team to be in and around finals or semi-finals every year. The pack is international standard, the backs are very good in most positions (although improvement is required at 9, 10 and possibly 12). What they don't have, as already pointed out by multiple posters, is a winning mentality. This will take time to develop given they have gone from serial underachievers to apparently a handy side over the last few seasons. The reason it is a milestone moment is that they have to approach learning from this in the right way. Their next big match, fortunately only a few weeks away, they have to show something different.
Let's not forget that this Edinburgh side failed to make the playoffs last season after finishing 5th, and this season have topped their pool. Let's also not forget that excluding their playoff appearance two years ago, the next best season was 2009/10 when they finished 6th. Ulster have either been in the playoffs or narrowly missed out every year that I can remember, even though the last few years pre-McFarland have been poor by their own standards. I'm sure they have the luxury of believing they belong at this level, Edinburgh have to get to the same place.
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:09 am
by Slick
KingBlairhorn wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:59 am
There are a lot of very disappointed posts here, clearly. My own view echoes most of it - they weren't good enough on the day and to lose it from a winning position is galling. One or two key moments in the first half went against them - I think there were two or possibly three clean breaks where all that was missing was the final pass to multiple overlapping players. These are the moments you must execute if you want to be a top team.
I think this is a milestone moment for Edinburgh. They do have the team to be in and around finals or semi-finals every year. The pack is international standard, the backs are very good in most positions (although improvement is required at 9, 10 and possibly 12). What they don't have, as already pointed out by multiple posters, is a winning mentality. This will take time to develop given they have gone from serial underachievers to apparently a handy side over the last few seasons. The reason it is a milestone moment is that they have to approach learning from this in the right way. Their next big match, fortunately only a few weeks away, they have to show something different.
Let's not forget that this Edinburgh side failed to make the playoffs last season after finishing 5th, and this season have topped their pool. Let's also not forget that excluding their playoff appearance two years ago, the next best season was 2009/10 when they finished 6th. Ulster have either been in the playoffs or narrowly missed out every year that I can remember, even though the last few years pre-McFarland have been poor by their own standards. I'm sure they have the luxury of believing they belong at this level, Edinburgh have to get to the same place.
Good post.
I have to say it's got me motivated to go and support a bit more often. Having watched a fair bit of English Premiership the last few weeks the style of play in the Pro14 is a lot more exciting.
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:16 pm
by Begbie
Steve wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:13 pm
Do you want the wooden spoon now or in March?
You pop in to a national thread to troll and that's the best you can come up with up? Razor sharp
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:17 pm
by Chrysoprase
Don't feed the troll
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:54 pm
by Jock42
KingBlairhorn wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:59 am
There are a lot of very disappointed posts here, clearly. My own view echoes most of it - they weren't good enough on the day and to lose it from a winning position is galling. One or two key moments in the first half went against them - I think there were two or possibly three clean breaks where all that was missing was the final pass to multiple overlapping players. These are the moments you must execute if you want to be a top team.
I think this is a milestone moment for Edinburgh. They do have the team to be in and around finals or semi-finals every year. The pack is international standard, the backs are very good in most positions (although improvement is required at 9, 10 and possibly 12). What they don't have, as already pointed out by multiple posters, is a winning mentality. This will take time to develop given they have gone from serial underachievers to apparently a handy side over the last few seasons. The reason it is a milestone moment is that they have to approach learning from this in the right way. Their next big match, fortunately only a few weeks away, they have to show something different.
Let's not forget that this Edinburgh side failed to make the playoffs last season after finishing 5th, and this season have topped their pool. Let's also not forget that excluding their playoff appearance two years ago, the next best season was 2009/10 when they finished 6th. Ulster have either been in the playoffs or narrowly missed out every year that I can remember, even though the last few years pre-McFarland have been poor by their own standards. I'm sure they have the luxury of believing they belong at this level, Edinburgh have to get to the same place.
Good post mate and you're right we can't expect to go from what they were a couple of season ago to champions. Cockers has come out with the right messages post match and I'm sure the players are feeling it more than us.
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:08 pm
by S/Lt_Phillips
The BBC are now suggesting that Fiji will be in the group with Scotland, France & Italy in the autumn tournament (not Georgia or SA). Georgia will replace Fiji in the other group, apparently.
It'll probably all change again before it kicks off, but I'm sure Townsend would prefer if he knew who we're playing against!
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:26 pm
by Begbie
S/Lt_Phillips wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:08 pm
The BBC are now suggesting that Fiji will be in the group with Scotland, France & Italy in the autumn tournament (not Georgia or SA). Georgia will replace Fiji in the other group, apparently.
It'll probably all change again before it kicks off, but I'm sure Townsend would prefer if he knew who we're playing against!
Will be interesting to see how Georgia go, I thought they were disappointing against us before the WC.
Can't wait for the hot takes if Fiji beat us. fIjI sHoUlD rEpLaCe sCoTlAnD iN tHe 6 nAtIoNs
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:08 pm
by KingBlairhorn
In all honesty I expect Georgia to be roundly thrashed in each game they play.
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:21 pm
by Jock42
I really hope so. Not because I think they'd challenge Scotland any time soon but because I'm bored to fuck hearing about changing the 6N.
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:59 pm
by Biffer
Jock42 wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:21 pm
I really hope so. Not because I think they'd challenge Scotland any time soon but because I'm bored to fuck hearing about changing the 6N.
Same here. They peaked about the time they pushed Ireland hard in the World Cup and for maybe three or four years after that but they’re nowhere near as good now.
Recent results vs decent teams are (most recent first) gubbed by Australia, gubbed by fiji, gubbed by Wales, gubbed by Scotland twice, Gubbed by Italy, gubbed by Japan, gubbed by fiji, narrow loss v Wales, gubbed by Argentina.
In their history they’ve beaten Fiji once, Japan once and Samoa three times and that’s it.
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:47 pm
by Yr Alban
Finlay Christie not in the latest AB squad. Toony really needs to get in there. Embra need a good SH, offer the lad a contract.
The irony, of course, is that we always get pelters for picking players not born in Scotland, and as Christie was authentically born in Peebles, he’d make our side look more Scottish. :)
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:51 pm
by KingBlairhorn
Yr Alban wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:47 pm
Finlay Christie not in the latest AB squad. Toony really needs to get in there. Embra need a good SH, offer the lad a contract.
The irony, of course, is that we always get pelters for picking players not born in Scotland, and as Christie was authentically born in Peebles, he’d make our side look more Scottish. :)
Is he one of their best 3 scrum-halfs? I think the top two pick themselves (Perenara and Smith) which leaves one slot to fill. They have at least 3 or 4 international class 9s at the 25-30 age bracket with guys like Drummond or Weber over 100 Super Rugby appearances and also a few All Black caps. Christie is 25 and has maybe 25-30 Super Rugby appearances, almost all as a sub. Honestly, I think he's nowhere near an All Black cap and he probably knows it.
The big question is, is he better than what we have? I'm not sure he is. Playing for a NZ franchise doesn't automatically make you a world class player as them picking guys like Simon Hickey shows.
Yr Alban wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:47 pm
Finlay Christie not in the latest AB squad. Toony really needs to get in there. Embra need a good SH, offer the lad a contract.
The irony, of course, is that we always get pelters for picking players not born in Scotland, and as Christie was authentically born in Peebles, he’d make our side look more Scottish. :)
Is he one of their best 3 scrum-halfs? I think the top two pick themselves (Perenara and Smith) which leaves one slot to fill. They have at least 3 or 4 international class 9s at the 25-30 age bracket with guys like Drummond or Weber over 100 Super Rugby appearances and also a few All Black caps. Christie is 25 and has maybe 25-30 Super Rugby appearances, almost all as a sub. Honestly, I think he's nowhere near an All Black cap and he probably knows it.
The big question is, is he better than what we have? I'm not sure he is. Playing for a NZ franchise doesn't automatically make you a world class player as them picking guys like Simon Hickey shows.
He absolutely is better than what we have. Edinburgh's 9s aren't getting an all black trial. I don't really think Price or Horne would either.
Yr Alban wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:47 pm
Finlay Christie not in the latest AB squad. Toony really needs to get in there. Embra need a good SH, offer the lad a contract.
The irony, of course, is that we always get pelters for picking players not born in Scotland, and as Christie was authentically born in Peebles, he’d make our side look more Scottish. :)
Is he one of their best 3 scrum-halfs? I think the top two pick themselves (Perenara and Smith) which leaves one slot to fill. They have at least 3 or 4 international class 9s at the 25-30 age bracket with guys like Drummond or Weber over 100 Super Rugby appearances and also a few All Black caps. Christie is 25 and has maybe 25-30 Super Rugby appearances, almost all as a sub. Honestly, I think he's nowhere near an All Black cap and he probably knows it.
The big question is, is he better than what we have? I'm not sure he is. Playing for a NZ franchise doesn't automatically make you a world class player as them picking guys like Simon Hickey shows.
He absolutely is better than what we have. Edinburgh's 9s aren't getting an all black trial. I don't really think Price or Horne would either.
Genuinely, on what basis is he better than Horne or Price? I agree he is probably better than what Edinburgh have, but not Scotland. He has had a brief purple patch where he has looked excellent, but he hasn’t done anything like enough to show he is better than an established international like Price. Even Sam HC has produced performances like Christie’s over similar lengths of time.
I’d love him to be a worldie and to choose to play for us, but the reality is if he was that good he would already be an All Black. He isn’t, which is why he might play for us.
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:40 pm
by I like neeps
Super Rugby NZ was played at a standard I have not seen in club rugby. It was fast, it was ferocious, it was the reason you watch the sport. SHC hasn't played at that level or close to it. SHC wouldn't start for the second best NZ club team. Christie's pass is much better, his speed to the ruck is excellent, his support lines were great too.
Price and Horne have so far been good internationally, so they've played at a higher than Christie, you do wonder if they start for the Blues and get in North vs South though. We'll never know but if Edinburgh can sign him they should.
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:15 am
by KingBlairhorn
I like neeps wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:40 pm
Super Rugby NZ was played at a standard I have not seen in club rugby. It was fast, it was ferocious, it was the reason you watch the sport. SHC hasn't played at that level or close to it. SHC wouldn't start for the second best NZ club team. Christie's pass is much better, his speed to the ruck is excellent, his support lines were great too.
Price and Horne have so far been good internationally, so they've played at a higher than Christie, you do wonder if they start for the Blues and get in North vs South though. We'll never know but if Edinburgh can sign him they should.
I agree Aotearoa was a totally different brand of rugby, a type of rugby you will only get if both teams are committed to playing an open and fast game. That doesn't necessarily mean Top14 rugby or English Premiership rugby is 'easier' per se, just different (although I would agree worse to watch). When the best players from France or England (or indeed the Pro14) come up against the best players from NZ they are not notably worse man for man. My point is this, if you are saying Perenara and Smith are much better than anything we have I would definitely agree but you aren't. You are saying that a guy who played what 4(?) games of Aotearoa with the rest from the bench behind Sam Nock and who in 4 or 5 years of being in and around Super Rugby squads and at the age of 25 (turning 26 next week) has played fewer than 30 games is better than Price and Horne because he plays in a particular competition. Not every player in Aotearoa is a world beater and, unfortunately, I think Christie falls into that camp despite his current form. I would love to be wrong, and very possibly I am, but I just don't see this guy being the messiah that he is being made out as across Scottish rugby social media. A solid signing for Edinburgh? Probably. A starting scrum half for Scotland? For me, probably not.
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:25 am
by JM2K6
Christie needs a bit more development but he's seriously rapid, decisive, and a decent passer too. Surely he'd be worth a shout?
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:31 am
by dkm57
To me 9 is one of Edinburgh's weaknesses and has been for at least a season, so they should definitely sign Christie if they can while the very promising SQ youngsters develop. Not entirely convinced by the centres at the moment either.
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:34 am
by Tichtheid
To be honest I think Shiel has the potential to make it as a top quality scrum half, our (Edinburgh’s) need is more pressing at 10 and probably at 12 as well - we let a very good player go to a team who have very fortunate regarding Sarries’ indiscretions, it’s the only thing keeping them up this year.
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:16 pm
by Tichtheid
Cockers and Duhan McMerwe get "Coach of the Season" and "Player of the Season", as voted for by their peers in the Pro 14
Tichtheid wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:34 am
To be honest I think Shiel has the potential to make it as a top quality scrum half, our (Edinburgh’s) need is more pressing at 10 and probably at 12 as well - we let a very good player go to a team who have very fortunate regarding Sarries’ indiscretions, it’s the only thing keeping them up this year.
Shiel's biggest problem is Cockers will never see him as anything other than an impact sub as he doesn't boot the leather off it and pass to a 10 stood in North Berwick.
Tichtheid wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:34 am
To be honest I think Shiel has the potential to make it as a top quality scrum half, our (Edinburgh’s) need is more pressing at 10 and probably at 12 as well - we let a very good player go to a team who have very fortunate regarding Sarries’ indiscretions, it’s the only thing keeping them up this year.
Shiel's biggest problem is Cockers will never see him as anything other than an impact sub as he doesn't boot the leather off it and pass to a 10 stood in North Berwick.
I have some degree of agreement with that point of view but the noises RC has been making more recently is that Shiel will start when he is ready, a modern scrum half does have to do the box kicking accurately, that goes for Faf dK and Aaron Smith as much as it does for the Edinburgh nine, and that is where perhaps Shiel has a bit of ground to make up. His breaking game is excellent.
It's a bit of a catch 22, how does he get the experience without the game-time? He and Chamberlain would both benefit from a couple of dead rubbers in next season's ERC competition, and definitely more time in the league.
Tichtheid wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:34 am
To be honest I think Shiel has the potential to make it as a top quality scrum half, our (Edinburgh’s) need is more pressing at 10 and probably at 12 as well - we let a very good player go to a team who have very fortunate regarding Sarries’ indiscretions, it’s the only thing keeping them up this year.
Shiel's biggest problem is Cockers will never see him as anything other than an impact sub as he doesn't boot the leather off it and pass to a 10 stood in North Berwick.
I have some degree of agreement with that point of view but the noises RC has been making more recently is that Shiel will start when he is ready, a modern scrum half does have to do the box kicking accurately, that goes for Faf dK and Aaron Smith as much as it does for the Edinburgh nine, and that is where perhaps Shiel has a bit of ground to make up. His breaking game is excellent.
It's a bit of a catch 22, how does he get the experience without the game-time? He and Chamberlain would both benefit from a couple of dead rubbers in next season's ERC competition, and definitely more time in the league.
The old bee in the bonnet was that Taylor was a waste of time as a defence coach, my new one is Hodge is a poor backs coach.
Cockers dictating a game plan is one thing, although the fact Hodge seeming compliantly nods along is worrying, but the skills of the backs aren't really improving.
Cockers needs a good backs/skills coach who can challenge him more, Hodge isn't it.
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:34 am
by Begbie
Russell doing Russell things last night
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:49 am
by Slick
He was an utter arse last year but by god am I looking forward to having him back!
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:52 am
by Begbie
Slick wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:49 am
He was an utter arse last year but by god am I looking forward to having him back!
Watching that has actually got me a bit excited about the Autumn games. Been feeling really flat about rugby lately.
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:02 am
by Biffer
Slick wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:49 am
He was an utter arse last year but by god am I looking forward to having him back!
Seems all our best players go through this phase! Hogg seems to have sorted himself out when he was in danger of turning into an arse, hopefully Russell will doing great things for us for years.
Re: The Official Scottish Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:02 pm
by world class phil
Begbie wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:34 am
Russell doing Russell things last night
Finn 'The Muscle' Russell showing off the lockdown rig. A joyous sight.
Slick wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:49 am
He was an utter arse last year but by god am I looking forward to having him back!
Seems all our best players go through this phase! Hogg seems to have sorted himself out when he was in danger of turning into an arse, hopefully Russell will doing great things for us for years.
I guess it must be tough for these guys, coming from a small community that won’t allow you to be a twat to suddenly being on the world stage. I think Hogg has done a remarkable job turning round his attitude and what folk thought about him
