Gumboot wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 10:23 pm
Well unlike you Dan, I was extremely disappointed with the result, and very concerned that it was our third loss from our last four tests. Simply not good enough.
Oh I a bit disappointed, just not over the top, I know why we call them tests and it's called sport. I just can't get into it's the end of the world, it isn't going to change my life, my world doesn't rely on teams I supporting always winning is all I mean. I love the game , and a one eyed AB supporter (and Canes etc) same as with club rugby, the joy of the game is in supporting teams, enjoying watching them, but keeping it all in prespective, I enjoy it more that way!
Kiwias wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:44 pm
There is one thing our backline desperately needs: a Conrad Smith to organise them in both attack and defense. The great AB team that won two RWCs had Carter and Smith so never played like headless chicken but neither BB nor Ioane is a backline organiser.
It was painful at times last night watching the players, who are individually all quite skilled, running around in circles with no-one have a fucking clue about what they should be doing as a unit.
There's one man for the job...
Oddly, a Google image search of that image tells me that it is David Havili when it is actually Charlie Ngatai.
This is Havili
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:07 am
by Guy Smiley
Jack Goodhue is the missing organiser...
but the current thinking is to have speed merchants.
Everywhere. Just run fast... something will happen.
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:11 am
by Dan54
Guy Smiley wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:07 am
Jack Goodhue is the missing organiser...
but the current thinking is to have speed merchants.
Everywhere. Just run fast... something will happen.
I would be happy to see Goodhue in at 12 or 13, though he tends to get burnt a bit for speed in defence at 13, but as you say a good organiser.
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:13 am
by Dan54
I looking forward to test in Wellington, with only one drawback, means missing my club team's semi final next week, and as I love my club rugby, it's a shame!
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:46 am
by Kiwias
Guy Smiley wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:07 am
Jack Goodhue is the missing organiser...
but the current thinking is to have speed merchants.
Everywhere. Just run fast... something will happen.
At times yesterday I was looking for DMac out there because it was so much the way he plays when at 10
Guy Smiley wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:07 am
Jack Goodhue is the missing organiser...
but the current thinking is to have speed merchants.
Everywhere. Just run fast... something will happen.
I would be happy to see Goodhue in at 12 or 13, though he tends to get burnt a bit for speed in defence at 13, but as you say a good organiser.
When has Goodhue been burnt for speed in defense?
He got scorched by the Reds a few weeks ago...twice. Both times resulted in tries.
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:28 am
by booji boy
Guy Smiley wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:07 am
Jack Goodhue is the missing organiser...
but the current thinking is to have speed merchants.
Everywhere. Just run fast... something will happen.
I don't think Jack Goodhue would have made much difference last night when we are getting pummeled up front. He started at 13 in that loss to England in 2019 and his 'organisational skills' didn't make a jot of difference. Anyway isn't he out due to covid, not some made up perceived bias about needing speed merchants?
I would be happy to see Goodhue in at 12 or 13, though he tends to get burnt a bit for speed in defence at 13, but as you say a good organiser.
When has Goodhue been burnt for speed in defense?
He got scorched by the Reds a few weeks ago...twice. Both times resulted in tries.
I found a highlights clip on youtube of the 1/4 final game in Chch...
there are two tries there where Goodhue is in the defensive line chasing. The first try, he is about 5m off the man with the ball who makes ground and space outside for the winger to score. The second try, he is tracking the ball as it is passed out along the backline...
it's a stretch to say he was scorched for pace. Position and the flight of the ball beat him there....
perhaps it's a couple of other tries you have in mind showing him being 'burnt for pace'?
Guy Smiley wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:07 am
Jack Goodhue is the missing organiser...
but the current thinking is to have speed merchants.
Everywhere. Just run fast... something will happen.
I don't think Jack Goodhue would have made much difference last night when we are getting pummeled up front. He started at 13 in that loss to England in 2019 and his 'organisational skills' didn't make a jot of difference. Anyway isn't he out due to covid, not some made up perceived bias about needing speed merchants?
Ho Booji,
this bored is run on a much more polite basis than PR, so
please
go fuck yourself.
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:38 am
by Gumboot
Guy Smiley wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:33 amI found a highlights clip on youtube of the 1/4 final game in Chch...
there are two tries there where Goodhue is in the defensive line chasing. The first try, he is about 5m off the man with the ball who makes ground and space outside for the winger to score. The second try, he is tracking the ball as it is passed out along the backline...
it's a stretch to say he was scorched for pace. Position and the flight of the ball beat him there....
perhaps it's a couple of other tries you have in mind showing him being 'burnt for pace'?
Guy Smiley wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:07 am
Jack Goodhue is the missing organiser...
but the current thinking is to have speed merchants.
Everywhere. Just run fast... something will happen.
I don't think Jack Goodhue would have made much difference last night when we are getting pummeled up front. He started at 13 in that loss to England in 2019 and his 'organisational skills' didn't make a jot of difference. Anyway isn't he out due to covid, not some made up perceived bias about needing speed merchants?
Ho Booji,
this bored is run on a much more polite basis than PR, so
please
go fuck yourself.
Can't say I've missed your pompous, know it all, holier than thou sermons over at PR but nice to see you haven't changed a bit.
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:05 am
by Guy Smiley
Well, he's covering a fair spread of the defense in both moves... I don't think he's been burnt so much as some of his team mates there.
I've also seen him run around defenders on attack. He's not blindingly quick but he's no slouch... and his smarts are missing from the backline. I'd prefer to see him at 13 and Rieko at 11... both players in their best positions, something NZ rugby seems to have struggled with historically in an effort to try and squeeze talent into a team.
I don't think Jack Goodhue would have made much difference last night when we are getting pummeled up front. He started at 13 in that loss to England in 2019 and his 'organisational skills' didn't make a jot of difference. Anyway isn't he out due to covid, not some made up perceived bias about needing speed merchants?
Ho Booji,
this bored is run on a much more polite basis than PR, so
please
go fuck yourself.
Can't say I've missed your pompous, know it all, holier than thou sermons over at PR but nice to see you haven't changed a bit.
It was tongue in cheek.
My humour is too dry. Sorry it offended.
As you're no fan, why bother engaging. Clearly, you don't enjoy it.
this bored is run on a much more polite basis than PR, so
please
go fuck yourself.
Can't say I've missed your pompous, know it all, holier than thou sermons over at PR but nice to see you haven't changed a bit.
It was tongue in cheek.
My humour is too dry. Sorry it offended.
As you're no fan, why bother engaging. Clearly, you don't enjoy it.
Mine was an attempt at our usual banter.
Anyway agree we need an organiser in midfield. Reiko does look like a winger playing centre and lacks the organisational and distribution skills needed. Even in super rugby this was lacking. Jack Goodhue is a superb player but as I mentioned above I doubt he would have made much difference last night. We got pumped right across the park in every aspect. Plus being down a man due to the red card doesn't help.
Foster is taking a world class group of players and turning then into a bunch of underachieving journeymen as we all predicted he would.
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:36 am
by Enzedder
Conrad Smith wouldn't have made a difference yesterday. The ball wasn't reaching the centres before the defence got there
Kiwias wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:44 pm
There is one thing our backline desperately needs: a Conrad Smith to organise them in both attack and defense. The great AB team that won two RWCs had Carter and Smith so never played like headless chicken but neither BB nor Ioane is a backline organiser.
It was painful at times last night watching the players, who are individually all quite skilled, running around in circles with no-one have a fucking clue about what they should be doing as a unit.
There's one man for the job...
Oddly, a Google image search of that image tells me that it is David Havili when it is actually Charlie Ngatai.
This is Havili
... I know.
Get on the phone. Call him back from Ireland. Still just 31. Maori Jesus, I think a boredie once called him.
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:43 am
by booji boy
Enzedder wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:36 am
Conrad Smith wouldn't have made a difference yesterday. The ball wasn't reaching the centres before the defence got there
Flockwitt wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 7:02 pm
Regardless of the local angst we've got a cracker of decider set up next week. Won't be looking forward to the reaction if Ireland win will certainly be well deserved though for a work Ireland have put into their set up, they've been building a high level of professionalism for years now and all credit to the IRU also.
They are absolutely the most organised, well drilled team in rugby at the moment: playing to a game plan that maximises their strengths. If you are good enough to derail it, there is no plan B but plan A might be good enough to take them to a RWC final.
I think France will now top the world test rankings, with Ireland 2nd, SA 3rd and NZ a flattering 4th.
Given the evidence of the past couple of years, and assuming Foster's still in charge at the RWC, I'm now convinced the only way we'll make the Semi Finals will be through sheer dumb luck.
France do top the rankings, which I think is misleading. On paper, France has the potential to be a better team than Ireland but is failing to get anywhere near linking back to fwds. Much argument between fans whether that's the tactics or certain players. For me, it's a combo of
- wrong players in backrow, thus failing to secure decent ball or slow down oppo ball. Even against Japan FFS
- wrong tactics. Kick away far too much ball which, when you are the WORST side in the world under the high ball, is just dim
- wrong FH. Ntamack has no tactical brain nor anywhere near good enough a kicking game
France could get this right for RWC and then I'd have genuine hope of them winning. But unless they fix it, I can't see them as favourites at all.
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:02 am
by Torquemada 1420
Just watching the game now having read the NZ press on the game talking down the incidents. How TF is the Faingaanuku one not a straight red?
{EDIT} and the Tungafaasi is a pen try. There is no cover. The cover makes the tackle on Sexton so Ringrose was clear.
Enzedder wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:36 am
Conrad Smith wouldn't have made a difference yesterday. The ball wasn't reaching the centres before the defence got there
Exactly.
The point was made by Kiwias that we are missing organisers like Carter and CSmith… hence the Goodhue reference.
The problem is across the park, of course. The whole philosophy is wrong.
Enzedder wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:36 am
Conrad Smith wouldn't have made a difference yesterday. The ball wasn't reaching the centres before the defence got there
Exactly.
The point was made by Kiwias that we are missing organisers like Carter and CSmith… hence the Goodhue reference.
The problem is across the park, of course. The whole philosophy is wrong.
Oh.. and Booji
Always used to say the real difference between the ABs and the rest (bar old days Aus) was NZ always had maybe 12 or more players who would always make the right decision no matter what the pressure whereas sides like Fra would be lucky to have 2. Rugby, given its complexity, is a game first and foremost of the top 2 inches.
I think what you are saying (and I agree) is that NZ no longer has that edge. It has as many dim players as most other sides.
There is a Catch 22 here. Other sides have bridged the gap by coaching players into fixed patterns. In Ire's and Wal's cases, it has been very successful. In Eng's case, it's over coaching. The danger is the more players are not allowed to think for themselves, the dimmer they become.
Guy Smiley wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:07 am
Jack Goodhue is the missing organiser...
but the current thinking is to have speed merchants.
Everywhere. Just run fast... something will happen.
I would be happy to see Goodhue in at 12 or 13, though he tends to get burnt a bit for speed in defence at 13, but as you say a good organiser.
When has Goodhue been burnt for speed in defense?
Saw it a few times the last time was in super just a few weeks back, I think most saw it, but I can't recall actual games. I always thought he lacked a little pace for 13 and have discussed it here before.
The point was made by Kiwias that we are missing organisers like Carter and CSmith… hence the Goodhue reference.
The problem is across the park, of course. The whole philosophy is wrong.
Oh.. and Booji
Always used to say the real difference between the ABs and the rest (bar old days Aus) was NZ always had maybe 12 or more players who would always make the right decision no matter what the pressure whereas sides like Fra would be lucky to have 2. Rugby, given its complexity, is a game first and foremost of the top 2 inches.
I think what you are saying (and I agree) is that NZ no longer has that edge. It has as many dim players as most other sides.
There is a Catch 22 here. Other sides have bridged the gap by coaching players into fixed patterns. In Ire's and Wal's cases, it has been very successful. In Eng's case, it's over coaching. The danger is the more players are not allowed to think for themselves, the dimmer they become.
NZ has players who can play intelligently. The Chiefs and Crusaders showed that this year and the Blues had it in flashes before losing it come the sharp end of the season.
Our problem lies in the coaching.
Clayton McMillan’s Māori All Blacks had their way with Ireland just a couple of weeks ago and they played with flair, intelligence and cohesion.
A conversation here at work last night centred on whether the Crusaders would beat Ireland. I don’t think that’s a ridiculous concept… and I reckon it would be close.
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:13 am
by Grandpa
Probably best to focus on strategy, tactics and coaching rather than individual players...
We all know what the elephant in the room is.... Until that's fixed, everything else is cosmetic.
And yes, a Razor coached Crusaders side would perform much better..
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:17 am
by Torquemada 1420
Guy Smiley wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:06 am
NZ has players who can play intelligently. The Chiefs and Crusaders showed that this year and the Blues had it in flashes before losing it come the sharp end of the season.
Our problem lies in the coaching.
Clayton McMillan’s Māori All Blacks had their way with Ireland just a couple of weeks ago and they played with flair, intelligence and cohesion.
A conversation here at work last night centred on whether the Crusaders would beat Ireland. I don’t think that’s a ridiculous concept… and I reckon it would be close.
It may be that NZ still has more players (proportionately) at least that can play smart. My contention is that number has dropped in recent years. No-one does dim better than the Canes for example. I don't see so many players like Leon or Conrad now.
I don't see the Saders beating Ireland now. 2 teams that do organisation superbly but physically there is no way the Saders could compete. And that's another issue for the ABs i.e. physically competing. Personally, I don't like the balance of the game where outright power wins outright: witness LaR beating Leinster.
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:25 am
by Guy Smiley
Right… I’ll email NZR and sort out a Saders v Ireland match to resolve the issue
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:30 am
by Torquemada 1420
Guy Smiley wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:25 am
Right… I’ll email NZR and sort out a Saders v Ireland match to resolve the issue
I'd love to see it TBF
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:55 am
by fishfoodie
Grandpa wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:13 am
Probably best to focus on strategy, tactics and coaching rather than individual players...
We all know what the elephant in the room is.... Until that's fixed, everything else is cosmetic.
And yes, a Razor coached Crusaders side would perform much better..
If it was France touring NZ this year, they'd have pummeled you in both tests, & there wouldn't even be a discussion over Foster. France have boxed clever by sending a B Team to Japan.
Grandpa wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:13 am
Probably best to focus on strategy, tactics and coaching rather than individual players...
We all know what the elephant in the room is.... Until that's fixed, everything else is cosmetic.
And yes, a Razor coached Crusaders side would perform much better..
If it was France touring NZ this year, they'd have pummeled you in both tests, & there wouldn't even be a discussion over Foster. France have boxed clever by sending a B Team to Japan.
SA should pummel us in SA... But unless it's 50-0. Twice! It still may not be enough to remove him.
Enzedder wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:36 am
Conrad Smith wouldn't have made a difference yesterday. The ball wasn't reaching the centres before the defence got there
Exactly.
The point was made by Kiwias that we are missing organisers like Carter and CSmith… hence the Goodhue reference.
The problem is across the park, of course. The whole philosophy is wrong.
Oh.. and Booji
I was not saying that if we had a CSmith out there yesterday that we would have won but at least the backs would not have been a discombobulated shambles on attack that we saw.
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:08 pm
by Ymx
I’d pick the saders. But I might be a little biased
The point was made by Kiwias that we are missing organisers like Carter and CSmith… hence the Goodhue reference.
The problem is across the park, of course. The whole philosophy is wrong.
Oh.. and Booji
I was not saying that if we had a CSmith out there yesterday that we would have won but at least the backs would not have been a discombobulated shambles on attack that we saw.
Your point was clear… you said we need players like those two.
That immediately becomes an argument over the value of one player and whether they’d have made a difference… which is not what you or I have said.
Whaddya do. People want to argue over things that aren’t there.
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:00 pm
by PCPhil
Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:02 am
Just watching the game now having read the NZ press on the game talking down the incidents. How TF is the Faingaanuku one not a straight red?
{EDIT} and the Tungafaasi is a pen try. There is no cover. The cover makes the tackle on Sexton so Ringrose was clear.
You be careful on the Faingaanuko ‘incident’. I got a fearful tongue lashing from a poster for daring to suggest it was anything more than a gentle tip tackle…….
Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:02 am
Just watching the game now having read the NZ press on the game talking down the incidents. How TF is the Faingaanuku one not a straight red?
{EDIT} and the Tungafaasi is a pen try. There is no cover. The cover makes the tackle on Sexton so Ringrose was clear.
You be careful on the Faingaanuko ‘incident’. I got a fearful tongue lashing from a poster for daring to suggest it was anything more than a gentle tip tackle…….
Is that the one where Leicester was taken out in the air?
Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:02 am
Just watching the game now having read the NZ press on the game talking down the incidents. How TF is the Faingaanuku one not a straight red?
{EDIT} and the Tungafaasi is a pen try. There is no cover. The cover makes the tackle on Sexton so Ringrose was clear.
You be careful on the Faingaanuko ‘incident’. I got a fearful tongue lashing from a poster for daring to suggest it was anything more than a gentle tip tackle…….
Is that the one where Leicester was taken out in the air?
Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:02 am
Just watching the game now having read the NZ press on the game talking down the incidents. How TF is the Faingaanuku one not a straight red?
{EDIT} and the Tungafaasi is a pen try. There is no cover. The cover makes the tackle on Sexton so Ringrose was clear.
You be careful on the Faingaanuko ‘incident’. I got a fearful tongue lashing from a poster for daring to suggest it was anything more than a gentle tip tackle…….
It was a total cop out, wasn't it?
Is the incident a high tackle or a shoulder charge?
A high tackle is an illegal tackle causing head contact, where head contact is identified by clear, direct contact to (the ball-carrier’s) head/ neck OR the head visibly moves backwards from the contact point OR the ball carrier requires a HIA.
YES
What was the degree of danger – high or low?
HIGH. How is smashing into someone's head with zero prospect of a tackle or gathering a ball anything else?
Are there clear and obvious mitigating factors?
NO. The ball was long gone.
Instead Peyper and the TMO talked it around by saying the contact was with the shoulder first, which was debatable but totally irrelevant.
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:17 pm
by Ymx
Are you fannies actually going on about those bad bad all blacks.
Re: Ireland in NZ
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:25 pm
by Ymx
Always getting away with it …
One rule for them …
All blacks are the best cheats …
Blah blah … broken record !!
Fark offfff !!!!
And we certainly are not light in receiving cards by refs.
... I know. 
