NPR

I like neeps wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2024 5:36 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2024 3:25 pm

I like neeps wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2024 2:43 pm I don't see how I'm misrepresentating that polling and labour door knockers said the tax attacks had cut through and labour still won a huge majority of both things happened.

Another depressingly predictable episode lying in politics is good actually if it's my side who are lying. Not so different from the Tories afterall.

As mentioned, massive majorities can hide how little of the electorate actually voted for a party. The number of seats Labour has vs. it's proportion of the vote is even more out of whack than Johnson's 2019 win. That Labour won despite the tax lie probably speaks more to just how many people were fed up with the Tories that even such falsehoods appearing to take hold with some people couldn't ultimately prevent Labour claiming the election.

We can never truly know the impact those things had. There's no other world we can monitor where the Tory tax lie didn't enter the electoral arena with all other factors remaining the same in order to calculate whether it did or didn't cost x% of the vote.

I'm a Lib Dem voter because they're the only viable non-Tory option in my constituency. Labour's politics are somewhat close to mine, but they're far from my side. Understanding why, given the state of the UK electorate, politicians shy away from mentioning tax rises during an election is hardly endorsing lying.

Like you I'm a lib dem voter because they were the opposition in my seat which until this election has been a Tory stronghold. I think that you're right the seat numbers is a distortion on voter %s because what they do show is a huge effort to vote out the Tories rather than endorse Labour. The idea that the Tories would be able to motivate people to vote for their own sh*t show because Labour are going to raise taxes is for the birds as they tried it and despite polling suggest people did listen ultimately what happened was a total repudiation of the tories.

The Labour leadership like all of us will have known for a long time you don't turn around failing public services with a demographic time bomb attached without higher taxes. Being deliberately dishonest to win an election is a wholehearted endorsement of lying and the debasing of politics we've had under the Tories.

A lot of us have spent more time than maybe we should have discussing the Tory lies (and other sins) on here. Only for it then to be okay for Labour to lie, doesn't make sense to me.

I like neeps wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 9:39 am A classic of the Tory lying is unacceptable but Labour lying is actually smart genre there dpedin.

I like neeps wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 9:39 am A classic of the Tory lying is unacceptable but Labour lying is actually smart genre there dpedin.

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 5:28 pm Their strategy appears to be more austerity amd appeasing Brexit headbangers if recent announcements about the Budget and the Getman treaty are anything to go by. Fairly gutless stuff.

Sandstorm wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 9:47 am

I like neeps wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 9:39 am A classic of the Tory lying is unacceptable but Labour lying is actually smart genre there dpedin.

Starmer didn't lie about taxes, you sore loser. He said nothing.

robmatic wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 5:52 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 5:28 pm Their strategy appears to be more austerity amd appeasing Brexit headbangers if recent announcements about the Budget and the Getman treaty are anything to go by. Fairly gutless stuff.

More austerity, great. Just what the UK needs after 15 years of being driven into the ground.

fishfoodie wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 6:03 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 9:47 am

I like neeps wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 9:39 am A classic of the Tory lying is unacceptable but Labour lying is actually smart genre there dpedin.

Starmer didn't lie about taxes, you sore loser. He said nothing.

Exactly !, there is no lie; in fact there is a confirmation of a commitment to a policy; a balanced budget !!!

The problem is the massive black hole in committed spending that the Tories left, & waited for the incoming Government to discover & have to deal with.

The Home Office has been accused of submitting “woeful” budget figures under successive Conservative ministers – which officials knew understated the ballooning cost of asylum and illegal immigration spending.

In a report partially vindicating Rachel Reeves’s claim that the new Labour government inherited a far worse financial situation than initially thought, the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) thinktank suggested the Home Office had repeatedly lowballed its budget estimates.

It found ministers knew budgets it had submitted were insufficient and habitually drew on Treasury contingency reserves, a practice which one Labour source described as “like the wild west”.

SaintK wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 7:02 am

fishfoodie wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 6:03 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 9:47 am

Starmer didn't lie about taxes, you sore loser. He said nothing.

Exactly !, there is no lie; in fact there is a confirmation of a commitment to a policy; a balanced budget !!!

The problem is the massive black hole in committed spending that the Tories left, & waited for the incoming Government to discover & have to deal with.

Quite

The Home Office has been accused of submitting “woeful” budget figures under successive Conservative ministers – which officials knew understated the ballooning cost of asylum and illegal immigration spending.

In a report partially vindicating Rachel Reeves’s claim that the new Labour government inherited a far worse financial situation than initially thought, the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) thinktank suggested the Home Office had repeatedly lowballed its budget estimates.

It found ministers knew budgets it had submitted were insufficient and habitually drew on Treasury contingency reserves, a practice which one Labour source described as “like the wild west”.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ ... m-budgets

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 5:28 pm Their strategy appears to be more austerity amd appeasing Brexit headbangers if recent announcements about the Budget and the Getman treaty are anything to go by. Fairly gutless stuff.

Slick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 7:29 am

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 5:28 pm Their strategy appears to be more austerity amd appeasing Brexit headbangers if recent announcements about the Budget and the Getman treaty are anything to go by. Fairly gutless stuff.

The Brexit stuff he has been spouting makes me wretch

Slick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 7:28 am

SaintK wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 7:02 am

fishfoodie wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 6:03 pm

Exactly !, there is no lie; in fact there is a confirmation of a commitment to a policy; a balanced budget !!!

The problem is the massive black hole in committed spending that the Tories left, & waited for the incoming Government to discover & have to deal with.

Quite

The Home Office has been accused of submitting “woeful” budget figures under successive Conservative ministers – which officials knew understated the ballooning cost of asylum and illegal immigration spending.

In a report partially vindicating Rachel Reeves’s claim that the new Labour government inherited a far worse financial situation than initially thought, the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) thinktank suggested the Home Office had repeatedly lowballed its budget estimates.

It found ministers knew budgets it had submitted were insufficient and habitually drew on Treasury contingency reserves, a practice which one Labour source described as “like the wild west”.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ ... m-budgets

I read that this morning in utter disbelief. How can you possibly supply a budget estimate of £320m and then spend £7.2 billion. If it’s not, it should be criminal

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 9:43 am

Slick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 7:28 am

SaintK wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 7:02 am
Quite

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ ... m-budgets

I read that this morning in utter disbelief. How can you possibly supply a budget estimate of £320m and then spend £7.2 billion. If it’s not, it should be criminal

I have a feeling that revelations like this are going to be a regular feature for the rest of the year, as Ministry by Ministry the various follies & frauds are uncovered.

We've heard nothing yet from Health or Defense, but I think we can be sure there's going to be massive bills to be paid for Hospitals to re-built, & submarines that leak, or whatever; & that's before the imminent nationalisation of water.

inactionman wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 9:57 am Does anyone know what a party in opposition are actually entitled to know about budget and finances within government? Or what they know in practice?

I'm not sure what is required to be publicly disclosed and what additional detail parliament get that won't be generally disclosed.

I assume there's some parliamentary scrutiny, but that the opposition would have only a very basic view of what went on in government departments. As others have mentioned , I'm expecting to see other financial disasters emerging over the coming months.

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 12:34 pm

inactionman wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 9:57 am Does anyone know what a party in opposition are actually entitled to know about budget and finances within government? Or what they know in practice?

I'm not sure what is required to be publicly disclosed and what additional detail parliament get that won't be generally disclosed.

I assume there's some parliamentary scrutiny, but that the opposition would have only a very basic view of what went on in government departments. As others have mentioned , I'm expecting to see other financial disasters emerging over the coming months.

Presumably the OBR is intended to provide an independent view of finances, but as they admitted, the Tories didn't fully disclose data to them, so they're pretty much useless when Politicians can just ignore them, & not be breaking the law. Is there a Public Accounts Committee ?

The new rail minister threatened in a previous role to withhold public contracts from one of the UK’s largest engineering groups until it disciplined a senior engineer for raising concerns about safety at one of London’s busiest train stations.

inactionman wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 1:32 pm This is not a good look

The new rail minister threatened in a previous role to withhold public contracts from one of the UK’s largest engineering groups until it disciplined a senior engineer for raising concerns about safety at one of London’s busiest train stations.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ar ... -criticism

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 12:37 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 12:34 pm

inactionman wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 9:57 am Does anyone know what a party in opposition are actually entitled to know about budget and finances within government? Or what they know in practice?

I'm not sure what is required to be publicly disclosed and what additional detail parliament get that won't be generally disclosed.

I assume there's some parliamentary scrutiny, but that the opposition would have only a very basic view of what went on in government departments. As others have mentioned , I'm expecting to see other financial disasters emerging over the coming months.

Presumably the OBR is intended to provide an independent view of finances, but as they admitted, the Tories didn't fully disclose data to them, so they're pretty much useless when Politicians can just ignore them, & not be breaking the law. Is there a Public Accounts Committee ?

You are being unduly credulous towards the Labour party. They knew exactly what was going on and said so pre-election. They’re going through the same routine a tradie does when they sense a job can be upsold

dpedin wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 9:59 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 12:37 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 12:34 pm

Presumably the OBR is intended to provide an independent view of finances, but as they admitted, the Tories didn't fully disclose data to them, so they're pretty much useless when Politicians can just ignore them, & not be breaking the law. Is there a Public Accounts Committee ?

You are being unduly credulous towards the Labour party. They knew exactly what was going on and said so pre-election. They’re going through the same routine a tradie does when they sense a job can be upsold

Exactly this! Its a bit like the new Manager taking over the football/rugby team languishing at the bottom of the league despite having spent loads of dosh on new players.

I've done the same myself when getting into a new job - get all the crap you have inherited onto the table asap, make it clear that it will take time and pain for you to sort it out and then, once done, set out what you would like to do thereafter. Of course before getting the job you do your homework and find out what has been going on and why the job is on offer - usually because the previous incumbent has fecked up.

I'm amazed folk are surprised about Labour using this tactic, the Tories did exactly the same in 2010 with the 'there is no money' note in the Treasury. This time the Tories have left a huge financial black hole in public finances, a shithouse of public services, loss of public confidence in politics and an economy suffering badly from the impact of Brexit. Starmer et al would be mad not to blame them for the shit they have inherited and for not using this as air cover for making some difficult and painful decisions ie increasing some taxes etc. What is their alternative?

Biffer wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 10:02 am

dpedin wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 9:59 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 12:37 pm

You are being unduly credulous towards the Labour party. They knew exactly what was going on and said so pre-election. They’re going through the same routine a tradie does when they sense a job can be upsold

Exactly this! Its a bit like the new Manager taking over the football/rugby team languishing at the bottom of the league despite having spent loads of dosh on new players.

I've done the same myself when getting into a new job - get all the crap you have inherited onto the table asap, make it clear that it will take time and pain for you to sort it out and then, once done, set out what you would like to do thereafter. Of course before getting the job you do your homework and find out what has been going on and why the job is on offer - usually because the previous incumbent has fecked up.

I'm amazed folk are surprised about Labour using this tactic, the Tories did exactly the same in 2010 with the 'there is no money' note in the Treasury. This time the Tories have left a huge financial black hole in public finances, a shithouse of public services, loss of public confidence in politics and an economy suffering badly from the impact of Brexit. Starmer et al would be mad not to blame them for the shit they have inherited and for not using this as air cover for making some difficult and painful decisions ie increasing some taxes etc. What is their alternative?

Let's face it, the Tories played that game for 14 years. Criticising Labour for it after 4 weeks is pretty dumb. And suggests where peoples sympathies actually lie.

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 10:09 am

Biffer wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 10:02 am

dpedin wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 9:59 am

Exactly this! Its a bit like the new Manager taking over the football/rugby team languishing at the bottom of the league despite having spent loads of dosh on new players.

I've done the same myself when getting into a new job - get all the crap you have inherited onto the table asap, make it clear that it will take time and pain for you to sort it out and then, once done, set out what you would like to do thereafter. Of course before getting the job you do your homework and find out what has been going on and why the job is on offer - usually because the previous incumbent has fecked up.

I'm amazed folk are surprised about Labour using this tactic, the Tories did exactly the same in 2010 with the 'there is no money' note in the Treasury. This time the Tories have left a huge financial black hole in public finances, a shithouse of public services, loss of public confidence in politics and an economy suffering badly from the impact of Brexit. Starmer et al would be mad not to blame them for the shit they have inherited and for not using this as air cover for making some difficult and painful decisions ie increasing some taxes etc. What is their alternative?

Let's face it, the Tories played that game for 14 years. Criticising Labour for it after 4 weeks is pretty dumb. And suggests where peoples sympathies actually lie.

My sympathies are no secret. I dislike the Labour party and despair that the Tories offered such a poor account of themselves that we are left with *this*. I did not vote Tory at the last election.

If you’ve whined for years about sleaze and lying in public office as a denigration of democratic norms and the decline of the nation, but are willing to wave it away now the gRoWn UpS are in charge, that is also instructive.

Biffer wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 10:15 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 10:09 am

Biffer wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 10:02 am

Let's face it, the Tories played that game for 14 years. Criticising Labour for it after 4 weeks is pretty dumb. And suggests where peoples sympathies actually lie.

My sympathies are no secret. I dislike the Labour party and despair that the Tories offered such a poor account of themselves that we are left with *this*. I did not vote Tory at the last election.

If you’ve whined for years about sleaze and lying in public office as a denigration of democratic norms and the decline of the nation, but are willing to wave it away now the gRoWn UpS are in charge, that is also instructive.

To pretend that after a couple of months none of the problems that exist are the fault of the previous government is, frankly, childish. They pretty much all are, given that policy, macroeconomics, and international relations all move relatively slowly.

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 6:46 pm

robmatic wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 5:52 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 5:28 pm Their strategy appears to be more austerity amd appeasing Brexit headbangers if recent announcements about the Budget and the Getman treaty are anything to go by. Fairly gutless stuff.

More austerity, great. Just what the UK needs after 15 years of being driven into the ground.

The Melchett Doctrine.

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 10:40 am I’m saying that they’re lying when they do the ‘shocked, SHOCKED to find out that public finances are tight/prisons are full etc) routine, and people are waving it away because they’re the good guys. It’s tedious to watch.

Sandstorm wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 10:55 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 10:40 am I’m saying that they’re lying when they do the ‘shocked, SHOCKED to find out that public finances are tight/prisons are full etc) routine, and people are waving it away because they’re the good guys. It’s tedious to watch.

They're setting the country up for a brutal (and necessary) new Budget. You say you dislike Labour - as a Tory-voting pensioner with a bit of money behind you, you're going to fucking hate them in October.

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 11:12 am

Sandstorm wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 10:55 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 10:40 am I’m saying that they’re lying when they do the ‘shocked, SHOCKED to find out that public finances are tight/prisons are full etc) routine, and people are waving it away because they’re the good guys. It’s tedious to watch.

They're setting the country up for a brutal (and necessary) new Budget. You say you dislike Labour - as a Tory-voting pensioner with a bit of money behind you, you're going to fucking hate them in October.

Yes, I understand what they are doing, I’m pointing out that it is dishonest. And ha - I am far enough away from retirement age to accept I am unlikely to receive a state pension.

SaintK wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 11:43 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 11:12 am

Sandstorm wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 10:55 am

They're setting the country up for a brutal (and necessary) new Budget. You say you dislike Labour - as a Tory-voting pensioner with a bit of money behind you, you're going to fucking hate them in October.

Yes, I understand what they are doing, I’m pointing out that it is dishonest. And ha - I am far enough away from retirement age to accept I am unlikely to receive a state pension.

Surely tou're used to it by now.
Going to be a long 5 years (or more) for you!!!

Sandstorm wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 10:55 am They're setting the country up for a brutal (and necessary) new Budget. You say you dislike Labour - as a Tory-voting pensioner with a bit of money behind you, you're going to fucking hate them in October.

'Ants are everywhere': Labour MP's tenants reveal condition of flats

A Labour MP rents out flats with black mould and ant infestations, the BBC has discovered. Jas Athwal, the newly-elected MP for Ilford South, owns 15 rental flats, making him the biggest landlord in the House of Commons. In one block of seven flats owned by Mr Athwal nearly half the tenants said they had to regularly clean their bathroom ceilings to remove mould.

The BBC also saw evidence of ant infestations in a number of the seven properties.

"The ants are everywhere," one resident said, pointing to insects climbing up a door frame. "They are on my kid’s body and on their clothes."

Another resident said they had been threatened with eviction by the letting agent if they complained about problems in their flat or started claiming benefits. Mr Athwal said the properties were managed by an agency, he had not been aware of these problems, and denied any tenant had been threatened with eviction.

He said he did not take on tenants on housing benefit to avoid conflicts of interest with his role as the local council leader.

He described himself as a "renters’ champion".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyg1j0lv1go

vball wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 2:50 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 10:55 am They're setting the country up for a brutal (and necessary) new Budget. You say you dislike Labour - as a Tory-voting pensioner with a bit of money behind you, you're going to fucking hate them in October.

The wife and I were talking about this earlier today. She is 60, taking on part-time work so she can get her NI stamps so she can get a full pension as she did not work due to kids, etc . I have all mine. I am about to retire (being made redundant actually but have no plans to work after - or at least salaried work). 3 years until I (currently entitled to) get my state pension. We had factored in the state pension to our financial plans. So if we will no longer get some/all of our state pension (as is being discussed), I either have to start thinking about working or we need to reduce our expectations for the future. OK this is middle class issues and there are lots of people struggling, but feeling a bit miffed by it all.

tabascoboy wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 3:26 pm

'Ants are everywhere': Labour MP's tenants reveal condition of flats

A Labour MP rents out flats with black mould and ant infestations, the BBC has discovered. Jas Athwal, the newly-elected MP for Ilford South, owns 15 rental flats, making him the biggest landlord in the House of Commons. In one block of seven flats owned by Mr Athwal nearly half the tenants said they had to regularly clean their bathroom ceilings to remove mould.

The BBC also saw evidence of ant infestations in a number of the seven properties.

"The ants are everywhere," one resident said, pointing to insects climbing up a door frame. "They are on my kid’s body and on their clothes."

Another resident said they had been threatened with eviction by the letting agent if they complained about problems in their flat or started claiming benefits. Mr Athwal said the properties were managed by an agency, he had not been aware of these problems, and denied any tenant had been threatened with eviction.

He said he did not take on tenants on housing benefit to avoid conflicts of interest with his role as the local council leader.

He described himself as a "renters’ champion".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyg1j0lv1go

I like neeps wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 10:12 am You'll find a lot of that here Paddington. The same behaviours that the Tories were castigated for are waved away as a cost of business for a serious government.

At least Labour aren't so nakedly corrupt and unlikely to be so. But lying, authoritatian, pro-austerity, jobs for the boys and gals... You'll find for excuses for that come readily.

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 12:09 pm

SaintK wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 11:43 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 11:12 am

Yes, I understand what they are doing, I’m pointing out that it is dishonest. And ha - I am far enough away from retirement age to accept I am unlikely to receive a state pension.

Surely tou're used to it by now.
Going to be a long 5 years (or more) for you!!!

Exactly the response I’m talking about

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 12:09 pm

SaintK wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 11:43 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 11:12 am

Yes, I understand what they are doing, I’m pointing out that it is dishonest. And ha - I am far enough away from retirement age to accept I am unlikely to receive a state pension.

Surely tou're used to it by now.
Going to be a long 5 years (or more) for you!!!

Exactly the response I’m talking about