Will Smith... yea or nay

[JM2K6]

You think the guy who just won an Oscar won't have a career after this?

[Ymx]

I’d say memories are short, so probably only a couple of years no one will want to touch him.

[Ymx]

The events have left many wondering if the actor will pay lasting consequences for his actions or if it will be a blip following a long career in Hollywood.

The Hollywood Reporter has spoken to some in the industry and so far, many think in the end, the costs to Smith’s career will not last. “It’s not kryptonite yet,” said one executive. Adding later, the exec said that Smith is known for his “accommodating nature” on set and “had never been violent.”

Others believe a comeback is possible, but that agencies and production companies are weary of the optics of taking him on at this time. “I think [studios] would think twice — do they need the aggravation?” said another insider.

What Will Smith projects have been pulled?

To date, “the slap” has put many of the one of Smith’s project on hold.

On Saturday, it was announced that Fast and Loose, a Netflix movie in pre-production was halted. The project in its entirety is up in the air, but it is important to note that there had been challenges before the events at the Oscars, including that the film’s director David Leitch had dropped out of the project.

Similarly, Sony had plans to continue the Bad Boys franchise with a fourth movie and a script had been sent to Smith. Since the events, Sony has chosen to set aside the potential blockbuster.

It’s also unclear what will happen with Emancipation, in which Smith was cast to play a slave-making an escape from Louisiana. The Antoine Fuqua-directed film is currently in post-production and is scheduled to premiere on Apple TV+ in 2022, but no release date has yet been set.

[JM2K6]

I don't think it'll affect his ability to get work at all.

[Ymx]

Did you post that before or after reading about the suspended projects?

Just trying to see where on the hell bent argumentative scale you are today?

[JM2K6]

Did you post that before or after reading about the suspended projects?

Just trying to see where on the hell bent argumentative scale you are today?

Before, but it doesn't change my opinion. One project that looked like it was doomed anyway. One that does seem to be a reaction to what happened, but difficult to know for sure. And one absolute guess that seems to have been chucked in there to pad it out.

Much worse people have done much worse and continued to have good careers. The only question is whether will Smith starring in a movie would continue to bring in money, and I don't believe that him slapping Chris rock "in defence of his wife" is going to turn people off his movies.

I expressed surprise at your opinion and didn't attack you at all, so there's no need to get personal.

[Slick]

Did you post that before or after reading about the suspended projects?

Just trying to see where on the hell bent argumentative scale you are today?

[sockwithaticket]

Similarly, Sony had plans to continue the Bad Boys franchise with a fourth movie and a script had been sent to Smith. Since the events, Sony has chosen to set aside the potential blockbuster.

It’s also unclear what will happen with Emancipation, in which Smith was cast to play a slave-making an escape from Louisiana. The Antoine Fuqua-directed film is currently in post-production and is scheduled to premiere on Apple TV+ in 2022, but no release date has yet been set.

Sequels are never a guarantee and the development process is long and fraught with pitfalls, but Bad Boys For Life made $426 million off a $90 million budget. That's a decent success for non-franchise property resurrected almost 20 years on from the last instalment. Smith's incident might have extended the time until we see the next one, however, I'd fully expect Sony to still be developing one.

The other project is too far in to be scrapped outright. Again, there might be a delay, but it'll come out.

He'll be starring in new things inside a couple of years, people move on quickly.

[Guy Smiley]

people move on quickly.

[Kawazaki]

Just trying to see where on the hell bent argumentative scale you are today?

JM is always turned up to 11 on the Eristic scale.

[JM2K6]

Settle down Alanis

[Openside]

Did you post that before or after reading about the suspended projects?

Just trying to see where on the hell bent argumentative scale you are today?

I will also admit to that comment raising a chuckle

[Glaston]

Polanski is still working in Films and has lots of Hollywood pals who speak up for him.
Mel Gibson still seems on the outer fringes

[Lobby]

Polanski is still working in Films and has lots of Hollywood pals who speak up for him.
Mel Gibson still seems on the outer fringes

Attitudes towards Polanski have changed quite a bit since the me too movement. US and UK distributors refused to even consider his last film, An Officer and a Spy, and there were considerable protests in France when the film was nominated for several Cesar awards. It’s still not been shown here or in the US.

He can work in France and Poland, but not in Hollywood, and I doubt any US film companies will be interested in working with him any time soon.

[eldanielfire]

Polanski is still working in Films and has lots of Hollywood pals who speak up for him.
Mel Gibson still seems on the outer fringes

Attitudes towards Polanski have changed quite a bit since the me too movement. US and UK distributors refused to even consider his last film, An Officer and a Spy, and there were considerable protests in France when the film was nominated for several Cesar awards. It’s still not been shown here or in the US.

He can work in France and Poland, but not in Hollywood, and I doubt any US film companies will be interested in working with him any time soon.

I think that's down to money from the investors of film companies. The Hollywood establishment at the actpors/directors/loovies level have never really spoken out abotu him, begrudgingly in public gave a few criticisms.

Weirdly I learned a while bacl the Polanski rape of a child occured in Jack Nicholson's home with Angelia Houston upstairs at the time of it. Houston has even recently defended Polanski. Which shows what it was almost considered normal in their culture at the time. No surprise so many child actors go of the boil IMO.

[eldanielfire]

Did you post that before or after reading about the suspended projects?

Just trying to see where on the hell bent argumentative scale you are today?

Before, but it doesn't change my opinion. One project that looked like it was doomed anyway. One that does seem to be a reaction to what happened, but difficult to know for sure. And one absolute guess that seems to have been chucked in there to pad it out.

Much worse people have done much worse and continued to have good careers. The only question is whether will Smith starring in a movie would continue to bring in money, and I don't believe that him slapping Chris rock "in defence of his wife" is going to turn people off his movies.

I expressed surprise at your opinion and didn't attack you at all, so there's no need to get personal.

I'm not sure amny Will Smith films in recent yeras ahve made much money. His oscar winning role only made 15 million. Now he's won an oscar, I don't think banning him matters much really. He's achieved the actors dream. If Will SMith is in a godo film people wnat to see, then they will see it. Most people view the slap as a comedy incident rather than a disgusting one.

[Lobby]

Polanski is still working in Films and has lots of Hollywood pals who speak up for him.
Mel Gibson still seems on the outer fringes

Attitudes towards Polanski have changed quite a bit since the me too movement. US and UK distributors refused to even consider his last film, An Officer and a Spy, and there were considerable protests in France when the film was nominated for several Cesar awards. It’s still not been shown here or in the US.

He can work in France and Poland, but not in Hollywood, and I doubt any US film companies will be interested in working with him any time soon.

I think that's down to money from the investors of film companies. The Hollywood establishment at the actpors/directors/loovies level have never really spoken out abotu him, begrudgingly in public gave a few criticisms.

Weirdly I learned a while bacl the Polanski rape of a child occured in Jack Nicholson's home with Angelia Houston upstairs at the time of it. Houston has even recently defended Polanski. Which shows what it was almost considered normal in their culture at the time. No surprise so many child actors go of the boil IMO.

Actually, the Hollywood establishment has in the past expressed considerable support for Polanski

In 2009 more than 100 people in the film industry signed a petition calling for the charges against him to be dropped. The signatories included Woody Allen, Martin Scorsese, Darren Aronofsky, David Lynch, Wes Anderson, Harrison Ford, Harmony Korine, Michael Mann, Jonathan Demme, as well as many others. Emma Thompson, Natalie Portman, Xavier Dolan and Asia Argento had originally signed the petition, but later asked for their names to be removed, or expressed regret about signing it.

As I said, attitudes have changes since the Me Too movement. It wasn't until 2018 that Polanski was expelled from the Academy. I doubt you'd get as many people willing to sign a petition supporting him now.

[troglodiet]

Most people view the slap....

So I would assume it's now okay to say it's not only his wife who's a slapper?

[sockwithaticket]

Which shows what it was almost considered normal in their culture at the time. No surprise so many child actors go of the boil IMO.

Not just their culture, but culture more broadly. There's lots of accounts of famous musicians or DJs from the 60s and 70s on both sides of the pond being involved with 14 and 15 year olds. And I doubt that's because they were uniquely depraved. It's still not uncommon for blokes well into their 20s, sometimes older, to have 16 year old girlfriends in the UK. While legal, it's not morally much far removed from them being a year or two younger. It's changing, slowly, but still plenty who don't see anything wrong with it.

[sockwithaticket]

Attitudes towards Polanski have changed quite a bit since the me too movement. US and UK distributors refused to even consider his last film, An Officer and a Spy, and there were considerable protests in France when the film was nominated for several Cesar awards. It’s still not been shown here or in the US.

He can work in France and Poland, but not in Hollywood, and I doubt any US film companies will be interested in working with him any time soon.

I think that's down to money from the investors of film companies. The Hollywood establishment at the actpors/directors/loovies level have never really spoken out abotu him, begrudgingly in public gave a few criticisms.

Weirdly I learned a while bacl the Polanski rape of a child occured in Jack Nicholson's home with Angelia Houston upstairs at the time of it. Houston has even recently defended Polanski. Which shows what it was almost considered normal in their culture at the time. No surprise so many child actors go of the boil IMO.

Actually, the Hollywood establishment has in the past expressed considerable support for Polanski

In 2009 more than 100 people in the film industry signed a petition calling for the charges against him to be dropped. The signatories included Woody Allen, Martin Scorsese, Darren Aronofsky, David Lynch, Wes Anderson, Harrison Ford, Harmony Korine, Michael Mann, Jonathan Demme, as well as many others. Emma Thompson, Natalie Portman, Xavier Dolan and Asia Argento had originally signed the petition, but later asked for their names to be removed, or expressed regret about signing it.

As I said, attitudes have changes since the Me Too movement. It wasn't until 2018 that Polanski was expelled from the Academy. I doubt you'd get as many people willing to sign a petition supporting him now.

For fear of backlash rather than actually changing their mind on the issue, you'd suspect.

[JM2K6]

Did you post that before or after reading about the suspended projects?

Just trying to see where on the hell bent argumentative scale you are today?

Before, but it doesn't change my opinion. One project that looked like it was doomed anyway. One that does seem to be a reaction to what happened, but difficult to know for sure. And one absolute guess that seems to have been chucked in there to pad it out.

Much worse people have done much worse and continued to have good careers. The only question is whether will Smith starring in a movie would continue to bring in money, and I don't believe that him slapping Chris rock "in defence of his wife" is going to turn people off his movies.

I expressed surprise at your opinion and didn't attack you at all, so there's no need to get personal.

I'm not sure amny Will Smith films in recent yeras ahve made much money. His oscar winning role only made 15 million. Now he's won an oscar, I don't think banning him matters much really. He's achieved the actors dream. If Will SMith is in a godo film people wnat to see, then they will see it. Most people view the slap as a comedy incident rather than a disgusting one.

Ahh, movie finances are always fun. It wasn't a blockbuster, it was released during a pandemic, and crucially it was also on HBO Max. Even Marvel movies (which have basically pushed everything else to the margins) struggled with that - notoriously, Black Widow only made ~$360m at the box office off a budget of $200m, largely because of being available for streaming at the same time. Compare and contrast with the latest (cinemas only) Spiderman movie which has taken over $1.8Bn(!!).

Smith does appear in a lot of shit to be fair, but Bad Boys For Life - the Will Smith film immediately preceding King Richard - made a killing. He's the poster boy for "if we don't get a big name for this film, we'll make no money at all" with a lot of his films.

Agreed that the slap divided opinion. Even if you're one of those "it was assault" people, you probably wouldn't put it in the same bracket as sexual assault for example, and plenty of people did not give a shit or defended it as the right thing to do or just found it funny. It doesn't strike me as being a career killer.

[inactionman]

Before, but it doesn't change my opinion. One project that looked like it was doomed anyway. One that does seem to be a reaction to what happened, but difficult to know for sure. And one absolute guess that seems to have been chucked in there to pad it out.

Much worse people have done much worse and continued to have good careers. The only question is whether will Smith starring in a movie would continue to bring in money, and I don't believe that him slapping Chris rock "in defence of his wife" is going to turn people off his movies.

I expressed surprise at your opinion and didn't attack you at all, so there's no need to get personal.

I'm not sure amny Will Smith films in recent yeras ahve made much money. His oscar winning role only made 15 million. Now he's won an oscar, I don't think banning him matters much really. He's achieved the actors dream. If Will SMith is in a godo film people wnat to see, then they will see it. Most people view the slap as a comedy incident rather than a disgusting one.

Ahh, movie finances are always fun. It wasn't a blockbuster, it was released during a pandemic, and crucially it was also on HBO Max. Even Marvel movies (which have basically pushed everything else to the margins) struggled with that - notoriously, Black Widow only made ~$360m at the box office off a budget of $200m, largely because of being available for streaming at the same time. Compare and contrast with the latest (cinemas only) Spiderman movie which has taken over $1.8Bn(!!).

Smith does appear in a lot of shit to be fair, but Bad Boys For Life - the Will Smith film immediately preceding King Richard - made a killing. He's the poster boy for "if we don't get a big name for this film, we'll make no money at all" with a lot of his films.

Agreed that the slap divided opinion. Even if you're one of those "it was assault" people, you probably wouldn't put it in the same bracket as sexual assault for example, and plenty of people did not give a shit or defended it as the right thing to do or just found it funny. It doesn't strike me as being a career killer.

The most notable aspect was that the slap was so out of character (both literal and make-believe) which might make casting him a bit more interesting - I was surprised to learn that the likes of Statham have clauses in contracts to say whether his character ca be 'defeated' as it will have an impact on his pulling power and his next role. It's ridiculous but it is what it is. If someone like Sean Penn had slapped someone it wouldn't have had anything like the same column inches dedicated to it.

[sockwithaticket]

Before, but it doesn't change my opinion. One project that looked like it was doomed anyway. One that does seem to be a reaction to what happened, but difficult to know for sure. And one absolute guess that seems to have been chucked in there to pad it out.

Much worse people have done much worse and continued to have good careers. The only question is whether will Smith starring in a movie would continue to bring in money, and I don't believe that him slapping Chris rock "in defence of his wife" is going to turn people off his movies.

I expressed surprise at your opinion and didn't attack you at all, so there's no need to get personal.

I'm not sure amny Will Smith films in recent yeras ahve made much money. His oscar winning role only made 15 million. Now he's won an oscar, I don't think banning him matters much really. He's achieved the actors dream. If Will SMith is in a godo film people wnat to see, then they will see it. Most people view the slap as a comedy incident rather than a disgusting one.

Ahh, movie finances are always fun. It wasn't a blockbuster, it was released during a pandemic, and crucially it was also on HBO Max. Even Marvel movies (which have basically pushed everything else to the margins) struggled with that - notoriously, Black Widow only made ~$360m at the box office off a budget of $200m, largely because of being available for streaming at the same time. Compare and contrast with the latest (cinemas only) Spiderman movie which has taken over $1.8Bn(!!).

Smith does appear in a lot of shit to be fair, but Bad Boys For Life - the Will Smith film immediately preceding King Richard - made a killing. He's the poster boy for "if we don't get a big name for this film, we'll make no money at all" with a lot of his films.

Agreed that the slap divided opinion. Even if you're one of those "it was assault" people, you probably wouldn't put it in the same bracket as sexual assault for example, and plenty of people did not give a shit or defended it as the right thing to do or just found it funny. It doesn't strike me as being a career killer.

In fairness, that's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. Black Widow has had a few limited series down the years, but the character has never held down a solo title, let alone multiple ones and huge numbers of spin off titles in the way Spidey has. Then there's all the people who grew up watching spider-man cartoons on telly and the Raimi film versions. The potential audience for the two was vastly different. Even with a generally expected MCU boost, spending as much as they did on Black Widow was mental and that it generated as much as it did actually somewhat impressive given the circustances of its release.

Even with the greater popularity of Spider-man I think that most recent film is going to stand alone as being one of those lightning in a bottle moments from a box office perspective, much like The Force Awakens or Avatar. Films that owe their huge box office to more than just what was on screen. With another wave of covid and people preparing to hunker down over Christmas, plus uncertainty about whether we might be going into more lockdowns, I can see how it attracted so many to go see it. I'd be surprised if another Spider-man movie makes quite that much again.

[JM2K6]

I'm not sure amny Will Smith films in recent yeras ahve made much money. His oscar winning role only made 15 million. Now he's won an oscar, I don't think banning him matters much really. He's achieved the actors dream. If Will SMith is in a godo film people wnat to see, then they will see it. Most people view the slap as a comedy incident rather than a disgusting one.

Ahh, movie finances are always fun. It wasn't a blockbuster, it was released during a pandemic, and crucially it was also on HBO Max. Even Marvel movies (which have basically pushed everything else to the margins) struggled with that - notoriously, Black Widow only made ~$360m at the box office off a budget of $200m, largely because of being available for streaming at the same time. Compare and contrast with the latest (cinemas only) Spiderman movie which has taken over $1.8Bn(!!).

Smith does appear in a lot of shit to be fair, but Bad Boys For Life - the Will Smith film immediately preceding King Richard - made a killing. He's the poster boy for "if we don't get a big name for this film, we'll make no money at all" with a lot of his films.

Agreed that the slap divided opinion. Even if you're one of those "it was assault" people, you probably wouldn't put it in the same bracket as sexual assault for example, and plenty of people did not give a shit or defended it as the right thing to do or just found it funny. It doesn't strike me as being a career killer.

In fairness, that's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. Black Widow has had a few limited series down the years, but the character has never held down a solo title, let alone multiple ones and huge numbers of spin off titles in the way Spidey has. Then there's all the people who grew up watching spider-man cartoons on telly and the Raimi film versions. The potential audience for the two was vastly different. Even with a generally expected MCU boost, spending as much as they did on Black Widow was mental and that it generated as much as it did actually somewhat impressive given the circustances of its release.

Even with the greater popularity of Spider-man I think that most recent film is going to stand alone as being one of those lightning in a bottle moments from a box office perspective, much like The Force Awakens or Avatar. Films that owe their huge box office to more than just what was on screen. With another wave of covid and people preparing to hunker down over Christmas, plus uncertainty about whether we might be going into more lockdowns, I can see how it attracted so many to go see it. I'd be surprised if another Spider-man movie makes quite that much again.

Black Widow is still a Marvel movie with all that entails, and Black Widow the MCU character is *very* popular. Plus people love David Harbour, and Florence Pugh is hugely popular with her Black Widow character becoming a real fan favourite. Yes, Spider-Man's popularity is huge but that discrepancy is astonishing.

To use another couple of examples of pandemic Marvel movies: Eternals, a Marvel movie featuring characters that pretty much no-one knew beyond hardcore Marvel comicbook fans, and was complete shit and absolute bore-fest that got killed by the critics, made more than Black Widow. Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, a fun film which was not marketed heavily and was another "who? what?" release also made quite a bit more than Black Widow. The only real explanation for the difference is the concurrent streaming release.

Fair enough on Spider-Man being an outlier though, happy to concede if that's what you think. I just picked it as another big release recently! I enjoyed it but I didn't think it was that great and really fuck Marvel for essentially infantilising a generation of movie-watchers

[eldanielfire]

Before, but it doesn't change my opinion. One project that looked like it was doomed anyway. One that does seem to be a reaction to what happened, but difficult to know for sure. And one absolute guess that seems to have been chucked in there to pad it out.

Much worse people have done much worse and continued to have good careers. The only question is whether will Smith starring in a movie would continue to bring in money, and I don't believe that him slapping Chris rock "in defence of his wife" is going to turn people off his movies.

I expressed surprise at your opinion and didn't attack you at all, so there's no need to get personal.

I'm not sure amny Will Smith films in recent yeras ahve made much money. His oscar winning role only made 15 million. Now he's won an oscar, I don't think banning him matters much really. He's achieved the actors dream. If Will SMith is in a godo film people wnat to see, then they will see it. Most people view the slap as a comedy incident rather than a disgusting one.

Ahh, movie finances are always fun. It wasn't a blockbuster, it was released during a pandemic, and crucially it was also on HBO Max. Even Marvel movies (which have basically pushed everything else to the margins) struggled with that - notoriously, Black Widow only made ~$360m at the box office off a budget of $200m, largely because of being available for streaming at the same time. Compare and contrast with the latest (cinemas only) Spiderman movie which has taken over $1.8Bn(!!).

Yes but Will Smith lackluster boxoffice returns have been going on for a while. Also His King Richard film has was released just before Spider-man. Black Widow (which was weird, as it was a film released after they killed her off, set between previous films) was released mid-pandemic which did kill a lot of films.

Smith does appear in a lot of shit to be fair, but Bad Boys For Life - the Will Smith film immediately preceding King Richard - made a killing. He's the poster boy for "if we don't get a big name for this film, we'll make no money at all" with a lot of his films.

Agreed that the slap divided opinion. Even if you're one of those "it was assault" people, you probably wouldn't put it in the same bracket as sexual assault for example, and plenty of people did not give a shit or defended it as the right thing to do or just found it funny. It doesn't strike me as being a career killer.

One film of a popular franchaise doesn't dispel the oevrall trend. I think it's largely because Will Smith has stared in some poor choices mostly. As for the view of the slap, I don't those going on about assault are over egging it. I see it a bit like John Prescott's hot of that guy who egged him. No one was seriosuly angry about it bar Johna dn the guy he hit I think.

[eldanielfire]

I'm not sure amny Will Smith films in recent yeras ahve made much money. His oscar winning role only made 15 million. Now he's won an oscar, I don't think banning him matters much really. He's achieved the actors dream. If Will SMith is in a godo film people wnat to see, then they will see it. Most people view the slap as a comedy incident rather than a disgusting one.

Ahh, movie finances are always fun. It wasn't a blockbuster, it was released during a pandemic, and crucially it was also on HBO Max. Even Marvel movies (which have basically pushed everything else to the margins) struggled with that - notoriously, Black Widow only made ~$360m at the box office off a budget of $200m, largely because of being available for streaming at the same time. Compare and contrast with the latest (cinemas only) Spiderman movie which has taken over $1.8Bn(!!).

Smith does appear in a lot of shit to be fair, but Bad Boys For Life - the Will Smith film immediately preceding King Richard - made a killing. He's the poster boy for "if we don't get a big name for this film, we'll make no money at all" with a lot of his films.

Agreed that the slap divided opinion. Even if you're one of those "it was assault" people, you probably wouldn't put it in the same bracket as sexual assault for example, and plenty of people did not give a shit or defended it as the right thing to do or just found it funny. It doesn't strike me as being a career killer.

In fairness, that's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. Black Widow has had a few limited series down the years, but the character has never held down a solo title, let alone multiple ones and huge numbers of spin off titles in the way Spidey has. Then there's all the people who grew up watching spider-man cartoons on telly and the Raimi film versions. The potential audience for the two was vastly different. Even with a generally expected MCU boost, spending as much as they did on Black Widow was mental and that it generated as much as it did actually somewhat impressive given the circustances of its release.

Even with the greater popularity of Spider-man I think that most recent film is going to stand alone as being one of those lightning in a bottle moments from a box office perspective, much like The Force Awakens or Avatar. Films that owe their huge box office to more than just what was on screen. With another wave of covid and people preparing to hunker down over Christmas, plus uncertainty about whether we might be going into more lockdowns, I can see how it attracted so many to go see it. I'd be surprised if another Spider-man movie makes quite that much again.

The 2nd one (in the To Holland films) made over a billion. The Rami films were hg in their time and would be billion plus. I mean Spider-man 2 made 800 million, 20 years ago when tickets were half the price. I read somewhere that Spider-man merchandise sells twice as much as any other comic hero, including Batman and Superman. It's only natural his films make big money in an era of Super-Hero's dominating blockbusters.

[JM2K6]

I'm not saying that Will Smith doesn't star in bad movies. I'm saying that non-superhero stuff has really struggled to make any money recently and being released on streaming at the same time has a big impact. Nomadland was brilliant and that made $38m, pre-pandemic. Promising Young Woman made $17m. Sometimes a studio tries to do something really big - like Once Upon a Time In Hollywood (DiCaprio, Pitt, Pacino, Robbie, Tarantino) and it only just manages to make as much money pre-pandemic as a 2nd-tier Marvel movie does during a pandemic. Imagine how much less they'd have made releasing that one during Covid!

Basically, if Will Smith is part of a popular franchise or in a hotly anticipated movie, it's likely to make an absolute killing assuming no external issues. Suicide Squad (2016) is a good example. Dogshit movie, but superheroes and made $750m, and part of that was the star power he brought in - same as for Bad Boys For Life.

Otherwise, he's just the guy they bring in to make sure that a film makes some money (and, frequently, it's the only way these films get greenlit). There's a lot of bad movies that popular actors are picked for just to ensure the money comes in. Chris Pratt does this a lot. So does Hemsworth. Many actors are able to curate their appearances a bit more so try to avoid this sort of rubbish but yeah, films like Hancock or I, Robot or Gemini Man or Bright or whatever would never get made without a Big Name like Will Smith anyway - they're not aiming to make a huge amount of money, they basically know it's trash. Importantly, these are not commercial failures; they may not make Marvel money, but it's pretty much guaranteed they'll turn a decent profit for the guys who put their money into it.

If Will Smith gets a good script and a good director and isn't completely niche, the film will likely make a lot of money. Otherwise, he'll carry on making trash films that still turn a profit, which is what studios want a lot of the time.


Having a great time checking box office stats for non-Marvel movies. Fuck me, it's such a big difference.

[Ymx]

Sock above posted this

Bad Boys For Life made $426 million off a $90 million budget. That's a decent success for non-franchise property resurrected almost 20 years on from the last instalment

[JM2K6]

Would also add that King Richard is not exactly a broad appeal movie. Quite a chunk of regular movie goers in the USA would be very much turned off by the idea of watching a biopic about the father of the Williams sisters...

[sockwithaticket]

Ahh, movie finances are always fun. It wasn't a blockbuster, it was released during a pandemic, and crucially it was also on HBO Max. Even Marvel movies (which have basically pushed everything else to the margins) struggled with that - notoriously, Black Widow only made ~$360m at the box office off a budget of $200m, largely because of being available for streaming at the same time. Compare and contrast with the latest (cinemas only) Spiderman movie which has taken over $1.8Bn(!!).

Smith does appear in a lot of shit to be fair, but Bad Boys For Life - the Will Smith film immediately preceding King Richard - made a killing. He's the poster boy for "if we don't get a big name for this film, we'll make no money at all" with a lot of his films.

Agreed that the slap divided opinion. Even if you're one of those "it was assault" people, you probably wouldn't put it in the same bracket as sexual assault for example, and plenty of people did not give a shit or defended it as the right thing to do or just found it funny. It doesn't strike me as being a career killer.

In fairness, that's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. Black Widow has had a few limited series down the years, but the character has never held down a solo title, let alone multiple ones and huge numbers of spin off titles in the way Spidey has. Then there's all the people who grew up watching spider-man cartoons on telly and the Raimi film versions. The potential audience for the two was vastly different. Even with a generally expected MCU boost, spending as much as they did on Black Widow was mental and that it generated as much as it did actually somewhat impressive given the circustances of its release.

Even with the greater popularity of Spider-man I think that most recent film is going to stand alone as being one of those lightning in a bottle moments from a box office perspective, much like The Force Awakens or Avatar. Films that owe their huge box office to more than just what was on screen. With another wave of covid and people preparing to hunker down over Christmas, plus uncertainty about whether we might be going into more lockdowns, I can see how it attracted so many to go see it. I'd be surprised if another Spider-man movie makes quite that much again.

Black Widow is still a Marvel movie with all that entails, and Black Widow the MCU character is *very* popular. Plus people love David Harbour, and Florence Pugh is hugely popular with her Black Widow character becoming a real fan favourite. Yes, Spider-Man's popularity is huge but that discrepancy is astonishing.

To use another couple of examples of pandemic Marvel movies: Eternals, a Marvel movie featuring characters that pretty much no-one knew beyond hardcore Marvel comicbook fans, and was complete shit and absolute bore-fest that got killed by the critics, made more than Black Widow. Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, a fun film which was not marketed heavily and was another "who? what?" release also made quite a bit more than Black Widow. The only real explanation for the difference is the concurrent streaming release.

Fair enough on Spider-Man being an outlier though, happy to concede if that's what you think. I just picked it as another big release recently! I enjoyed it but I didn't think it was that great and really fuck Marvel for essentially infantilising a generation of movie-watchers

True enough, although Florence Pugh's Yelena has become popular following the film, so I don't know if that can be factored into why people went, though she likely has fans she drew in off the back of high profile work in the likes of Midsommar.

There's other stuff at play with Shang Chi and Eternals both came out a bit later in the year than Black Widow which released in the height of a Summer when covid restrictions had eased for most major markets. I can imagine some people who would ordinarily go probably stayed out of the cinema as a result, but by September and November were willing to go back. The other two were also heavily billed as the start of phase 4 whereas Black Widow was closing the book on a character whose on screen death had already been seen by those likely to watch a stand alone and the film wouldn't be vital to understanding the MCU going forward (I remain convinced the second Ant-Man film only made as much as it did due to being talked up as important for Endgame). I seem to recall audiences hating Eternals more than critics, but I'm not convinced critics matter much for blockbusters these days.

Spider-man will generally make a fuck ton and would have sold way better than any of the other three regardless, but 1.8 billion is stupid huge, hence seeing it as an outlier. I'm reminded of Force Awakens making 2 billion and then The Last Jedi being a 'disapppointment' for Disney because it only made 1.3. Around the billion mark seems to be a new standard for a big, popular franchise film, going markedly beyond that has been an outlier up to this point. I could be wrong, Spider-man may have set a new standard in eye-watering box office figures for those types of movies!

I actually agree with you that I'm annoyed with how overwhelmingly successful the MCU has become, even as a bit of a Marvel comics nerd. Even though not that many come out year to year, it dominates the industry conversation. Between it and a few other big franchises, other films struggle for oxygen.

[sockwithaticket]

Ahh, movie finances are always fun. It wasn't a blockbuster, it was released during a pandemic, and crucially it was also on HBO Max. Even Marvel movies (which have basically pushed everything else to the margins) struggled with that - notoriously, Black Widow only made ~$360m at the box office off a budget of $200m, largely because of being available for streaming at the same time. Compare and contrast with the latest (cinemas only) Spiderman movie which has taken over $1.8Bn(!!).

Smith does appear in a lot of shit to be fair, but Bad Boys For Life - the Will Smith film immediately preceding King Richard - made a killing. He's the poster boy for "if we don't get a big name for this film, we'll make no money at all" with a lot of his films.

Agreed that the slap divided opinion. Even if you're one of those "it was assault" people, you probably wouldn't put it in the same bracket as sexual assault for example, and plenty of people did not give a shit or defended it as the right thing to do or just found it funny. It doesn't strike me as being a career killer.

In fairness, that's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. Black Widow has had a few limited series down the years, but the character has never held down a solo title, let alone multiple ones and huge numbers of spin off titles in the way Spidey has. Then there's all the people who grew up watching spider-man cartoons on telly and the Raimi film versions. The potential audience for the two was vastly different. Even with a generally expected MCU boost, spending as much as they did on Black Widow was mental and that it generated as much as it did actually somewhat impressive given the circustances of its release.

Even with the greater popularity of Spider-man I think that most recent film is going to stand alone as being one of those lightning in a bottle moments from a box office perspective, much like The Force Awakens or Avatar. Films that owe their huge box office to more than just what was on screen. With another wave of covid and people preparing to hunker down over Christmas, plus uncertainty about whether we might be going into more lockdowns, I can see how it attracted so many to go see it. I'd be surprised if another Spider-man movie makes quite that much again.

The 2nd one (in the To Holland films) made over a billion. The Rami films were hg in their time and would be billion plus. I mean Spider-man 2 made 800 million, 20 years ago when tickets were half the price. I read somewhere that Spider-man merchandise sells twice as much as any other comic hero, including Batman and Superman. It's only natural his films make big money in an era of Super-Hero's dominating blockbusters.

Yes, but it's so much over a billion. That's what puts it into outlier territory. For now, at least.

[Lobby]

Ahh, movie finances are always fun. It wasn't a blockbuster, it was released during a pandemic, and crucially it was also on HBO Max. Even Marvel movies (which have basically pushed everything else to the margins) struggled with that - notoriously, Black Widow only made ~$360m at the box office off a budget of $200m, largely because of being available for streaming at the same time. Compare and contrast with the latest (cinemas only) Spiderman movie which has taken over $1.8Bn(!!).

Smith does appear in a lot of shit to be fair, but Bad Boys For Life - the Will Smith film immediately preceding King Richard - made a killing. He's the poster boy for "if we don't get a big name for this film, we'll make no money at all" with a lot of his films.

Agreed that the slap divided opinion. Even if you're one of those "it was assault" people, you probably wouldn't put it in the same bracket as sexual assault for example, and plenty of people did not give a shit or defended it as the right thing to do or just found it funny. It doesn't strike me as being a career killer.

In fairness, that's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. Black Widow has had a few limited series down the years, but the character has never held down a solo title, let alone multiple ones and huge numbers of spin off titles in the way Spidey has. Then there's all the people who grew up watching spider-man cartoons on telly and the Raimi film versions. The potential audience for the two was vastly different. Even with a generally expected MCU boost, spending as much as they did on Black Widow was mental and that it generated as much as it did actually somewhat impressive given the circustances of its release.

Even with the greater popularity of Spider-man I think that most recent film is going to stand alone as being one of those lightning in a bottle moments from a box office perspective, much like The Force Awakens or Avatar. Films that owe their huge box office to more than just what was on screen. With another wave of covid and people preparing to hunker down over Christmas, plus uncertainty about whether we might be going into more lockdowns, I can see how it attracted so many to go see it. I'd be surprised if another Spider-man movie makes quite that much again.

Black Widow is still a Marvel movie with all that entails, and Black Widow the MCU character is *very* popular. Plus people love David Harbour, and Florence Pugh is hugely popular with her Black Widow character becoming a real fan favourite. Yes, Spider-Man's popularity is huge but that discrepancy is astonishing.

To use another couple of examples of pandemic Marvel movies: Eternals, a Marvel movie featuring characters that pretty much no-one knew beyond hardcore Marvel comicbook fans, and was complete shit and absolute bore-fest that got killed by the critics, made more than Black Widow. Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, a fun film which was not marketed heavily and was another "who? what?" release also made quite a bit more than Black Widow. The only real explanation for the difference is the concurrent streaming release.

Fair enough on Spider-Man being an outlier though, happy to concede if that's what you think. I just picked it as another big release recently! I enjoyed it but I didn't think it was that great and really fuck Marvel for essentially infantilising a generation of movie-watchers

Just to add to the ‘streaming killed Black Widow’s profits’ point, Scarlett Johansson sued Disney for lost earnings because they streamed it at the same time as its theatrical release.

[sockwithaticket]

Having a great time checking box office stats for non-Marvel movies. Fuck me, it's such a big difference.

It's a fun rabbit hole. I remember the first time I went looking and being amazed at how little the sorts of films that tend to do well at the Oscars make given the amount of fanfare there often is around them.

[sockwithaticket]

In fairness, that's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. Black Widow has had a few limited series down the years, but the character has never held down a solo title, let alone multiple ones and huge numbers of spin off titles in the way Spidey has. Then there's all the people who grew up watching spider-man cartoons on telly and the Raimi film versions. The potential audience for the two was vastly different. Even with a generally expected MCU boost, spending as much as they did on Black Widow was mental and that it generated as much as it did actually somewhat impressive given the circustances of its release.

Even with the greater popularity of Spider-man I think that most recent film is going to stand alone as being one of those lightning in a bottle moments from a box office perspective, much like The Force Awakens or Avatar. Films that owe their huge box office to more than just what was on screen. With another wave of covid and people preparing to hunker down over Christmas, plus uncertainty about whether we might be going into more lockdowns, I can see how it attracted so many to go see it. I'd be surprised if another Spider-man movie makes quite that much again.

Black Widow is still a Marvel movie with all that entails, and Black Widow the MCU character is *very* popular. Plus people love David Harbour, and Florence Pugh is hugely popular with her Black Widow character becoming a real fan favourite. Yes, Spider-Man's popularity is huge but that discrepancy is astonishing.

To use another couple of examples of pandemic Marvel movies: Eternals, a Marvel movie featuring characters that pretty much no-one knew beyond hardcore Marvel comicbook fans, and was complete shit and absolute bore-fest that got killed by the critics, made more than Black Widow. Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, a fun film which was not marketed heavily and was another "who? what?" release also made quite a bit more than Black Widow. The only real explanation for the difference is the concurrent streaming release.

Fair enough on Spider-Man being an outlier though, happy to concede if that's what you think. I just picked it as another big release recently! I enjoyed it but I didn't think it was that great and really fuck Marvel for essentially infantilising a generation of movie-watchers

Just to add to the ‘streaming killed Black Widow’s profits’ point, Scarlett Johansson sued Disney for lost earnings because they streamed it at the same time as its theatrical release.

it was also for breach of contract. She'd had it written in that it would get a cinema only release and negotiated for gross points or something. Releasing it on streaming would certainly have an effect, I've no idea how one would go about calculating it.

[Ymx]

I'm not sure amny Will Smith films in recent yeras ahve made much money. His oscar winning role only made 15 million. Now he's won an oscar, I don't think banning him matters much really. He's achieved the actors dream. If Will SMith is in a godo film people wnat to see, then they will see it. Most people view the slap as a comedy incident rather than a disgusting one.

Ahh, movie finances are always fun. It wasn't a blockbuster, it was released during a pandemic, and crucially it was also on HBO Max. Even Marvel movies (which have basically pushed everything else to the margins) struggled with that - notoriously, Black Widow only made ~$360m at the box office off a budget of $200m, largely because of being available for streaming at the same time. Compare and contrast with the latest (cinemas only) Spiderman movie which has taken over $1.8Bn(!!).

Smith does appear in a lot of shit to be fair, but Bad Boys For Life - the Will Smith film immediately preceding King Richard - made a killing. He's the poster boy for "if we don't get a big name for this film, we'll make no money at all" with a lot of his films.

Agreed that the slap divided opinion. Even if you're one of those "it was assault" people, you probably wouldn't put it in the same bracket as sexual assault for example, and plenty of people did not give a shit or defended it as the right thing to do or just found it funny. It doesn't strike me as being a career killer.

The most notable aspect was that the slap was so out of character (both literal and make-believe) which might make casting him a bit more interesting - I was surprised to learn that the likes of Statham have clauses in contracts to say whether his character ca be 'defeated' as it will have an impact on his pulling power and his next role. It's ridiculous but it is what it is. If someone like Sean Penn had slapped someone it wouldn't have had anything like the same column inches dedicated to it.

Obviously struggling to follow your train of thought on this, it’s slightly hard to follow how your points lead on to one another.

However skipping to the end. Do you seriously not think Sean Penn completely losing it and whacking someone on stage, then continuing to swear at the person, would not get huge attention?

[inactionman]

Ahh, movie finances are always fun. It wasn't a blockbuster, it was released during a pandemic, and crucially it was also on HBO Max. Even Marvel movies (which have basically pushed everything else to the margins) struggled with that - notoriously, Black Widow only made ~$360m at the box office off a budget of $200m, largely because of being available for streaming at the same time. Compare and contrast with the latest (cinemas only) Spiderman movie which has taken over $1.8Bn(!!).

Smith does appear in a lot of shit to be fair, but Bad Boys For Life - the Will Smith film immediately preceding King Richard - made a killing. He's the poster boy for "if we don't get a big name for this film, we'll make no money at all" with a lot of his films.

Agreed that the slap divided opinion. Even if you're one of those "it was assault" people, you probably wouldn't put it in the same bracket as sexual assault for example, and plenty of people did not give a shit or defended it as the right thing to do or just found it funny. It doesn't strike me as being a career killer.

The most notable aspect was that the slap was so out of character (both literal and make-believe) which might make casting him a bit more interesting - I was surprised to learn that the likes of Statham have clauses in contracts to say whether his character ca be 'defeated' as it will have an impact on his pulling power and his next role. It's ridiculous but it is what it is. If someone like Sean Penn had slapped someone it wouldn't have had anything like the same column inches dedicated to it.

Obviously struggling to follow your train of thought on this, it’s slightly hard to follow how your points lead on to one another.

However skipping to the end. Do you seriously not think Sean Penn completely losing it and whacking someone on stage, then continuing to swear at the person, would not get huge attention?

The public perception of Smith. Someone like Penn is argumentative and, frankly, appears to enjoy causing a scene - he was banged up for punching a film extra for taking his picture. Of course, if he did this at the Oscars it would be noted, to put it mildly, but not to the same extent. Will Smith is a different character.

My main point is that Will Smith hitting someone out of anger is pretty out of character, which may impact the general public's perception of him, and that casting decisions take public perceptions into account.

[JM2K6]

In fairness, that's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. Black Widow has had a few limited series down the years, but the character has never held down a solo title, let alone multiple ones and huge numbers of spin off titles in the way Spidey has. Then there's all the people who grew up watching spider-man cartoons on telly and the Raimi film versions. The potential audience for the two was vastly different. Even with a generally expected MCU boost, spending as much as they did on Black Widow was mental and that it generated as much as it did actually somewhat impressive given the circustances of its release.

Even with the greater popularity of Spider-man I think that most recent film is going to stand alone as being one of those lightning in a bottle moments from a box office perspective, much like The Force Awakens or Avatar. Films that owe their huge box office to more than just what was on screen. With another wave of covid and people preparing to hunker down over Christmas, plus uncertainty about whether we might be going into more lockdowns, I can see how it attracted so many to go see it. I'd be surprised if another Spider-man movie makes quite that much again.

Black Widow is still a Marvel movie with all that entails, and Black Widow the MCU character is *very* popular. Plus people love David Harbour, and Florence Pugh is hugely popular with her Black Widow character becoming a real fan favourite. Yes, Spider-Man's popularity is huge but that discrepancy is astonishing.

To use another couple of examples of pandemic Marvel movies: Eternals, a Marvel movie featuring characters that pretty much no-one knew beyond hardcore Marvel comicbook fans, and was complete shit and absolute bore-fest that got killed by the critics, made more than Black Widow. Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, a fun film which was not marketed heavily and was another "who? what?" release also made quite a bit more than Black Widow. The only real explanation for the difference is the concurrent streaming release.

Fair enough on Spider-Man being an outlier though, happy to concede if that's what you think. I just picked it as another big release recently! I enjoyed it but I didn't think it was that great and really fuck Marvel for essentially infantilising a generation of movie-watchers

Just to add to the ‘streaming killed Black Widow’s profits’ point, Scarlett Johansson sued Disney for lost earnings because they streamed it at the same time as its theatrical release.

Yes - hence, notoriously...

[JM2K6]

Having a great time checking box office stats for non-Marvel movies. Fuck me, it's such a big difference.

It's a fun rabbit hole. I remember the first time I went looking and being amazed at how little the sorts of films that tend to do well at the Oscars make given the amount of fanfare there often is around them.

Yeah. I dislike the Oscars in general but the fact that Marvel tends not to trouble them too much in the acting / writing / directing categories seems spot on to me. Lots of people complained that Spider-Man didn't get a nomination. Right, okay. Go watch Parasite and then tell me that Spider-Man is in the same category. Not that I hate all the films or anything, I'll watch them all and I really enjoyed a number of them, but none of them are Oscar worthy. Logan is the closest thing a superhero movie of recent times has come to a film worth nominating, and even that's a stretch. Black Panther did get nominated but for cultural impact rather than quality given the last third of that movie.

Sticking on the King Richard theme - it made like $40m. Another sports biopic - I, Tonya, which was fucking brilliant - made $54m pre-pandemic. 12 Years A Slave, which I haven't seen but am reliably informed is brilliant and a real cultural touchstone, was a bit of an outlier at $180m - which is a little more than Will Smith's bad movies make.

Hollywood, eh.

(Meanwhile, the Netflix Marvel shows won awards and rightly so, because they largely took the risks that the movies utterly refuse to do)

[sockwithaticket]

Having a great time checking box office stats for non-Marvel movies. Fuck me, it's such a big difference.

It's a fun rabbit hole. I remember the first time I went looking and being amazed at how little the sorts of films that tend to do well at the Oscars make given the amount of fanfare there often is around them.

Yeah. I dislike the Oscars in general but the fact that Marvel tends not to trouble them too much in the acting / writing / directing categories seems spot on to me. Lots of people complained that Spider-Man didn't get a nomination. Right, okay. Go watch Parasite and then tell me that Spider-Man is in the same category. Not that I hate all the films or anything, I'll watch them all and I really enjoyed a number of them, but none of them are Oscar worthy. Logan is the closest thing a superhero movie of recent times has come to a film worth nominating, and even that's a stretch. Black Panther did get nominated but for cultural impact rather than quality given the last third of that movie.

Sticking on the King Richard theme - it made like $40m. Another sports biopic - I, Tonya, which was fucking brilliant - made $54m pre-pandemic. 12 Years A Slave, which I haven't seen but am reliably informed is brilliant and a real cultural touchstone, was a bit of an outlier at $180m - which is a little more than Will Smith's bad movies make.

Hollywood, eh.

(Meanwhile, the Netflix Marvel shows won awards and rightly so, because they largely took the risks that the movies utterly refuse to do)

Yeah, I remember hearing a bit around that and it floored me.I understand people wanting what they like to be rewarded, but Spider-man is just a decent enough flick and nothing more. Disposable and without any particularly notable work individually a la Cumberbatch in the second of the most recent Star Trek's or Fassbender in Prometheus. If we run with the idea that awards, be they Oscars, Baftas or whatever, should go to the best rather than the most popular work then it shouldn't be in the conversation. The various awarding bodies are fraught with issues when it comes to actually rewarding the best work or even compiling short lists comprised of it, but they do generally do a job of discerning between art and commerce.

As an aside, I-Tonya is a cracking film. Not generally a biopics fan or fictionalisation of real events in general, but it got around that usual concern by openly establishing the unreliability of the narrative voice.

Without having checked all of them, I think the King's Speech has comfortably the largest box office of a best picture winner since Lord of the Rings at over $400m, then it's Argo with about $230m. Quite a few of the more recent ones are over the $100m mark to varying degrees, but I've yet to really find figures that break down the overall total into pre- and post- an award win. That obviously gives them a boost which is part of why there's so much lobbying.

[JM2K6]

I somehow missed Argo being an Oscar winner entirely - literally didn't know of its existence and had never heard of it - until I watched it on a whim a couple of years ago. Talk about a surprise, went into it thinking it'd be a dumb kind of spy film and had an absolute blast.