Jones gonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnne

[JM2K6]

I am really pissed off with this sacking! I was more than happy for the poisoned dwarf to remain in place for the 6Ns and continue to pick the Vunipola brothers, 2nd rows in the back row, sloth like or out of form wingers, two no10s to confuse each other and a glacial SH. I loved the bullshit nonsense from the failed hobbit prior to games that pissed off his own country and gave the rest of us a laugh. Picking a new coach, who god forbid might pick a decent squad will screw this all up for us. How dare the SRU deny us this fun!

Poison dwarf. Poisoned dwarf was what we were hoping for.

[Niegs]

A tale of two Telegraphs

This piece by Charlie Morgan - excellent, doesn't mince words https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... s-england/

Can you cut and paste the full thing?

[JM2K6]

A tale of two Telegraphs

This piece by Charlie Morgan - excellent, doesn't mince words https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... s-england/

Can you cut and paste the full thing?

https://archive.ph/33Qmf any good to you?

[Niegs]

Also, where's Toga?

[Niegs]

A tale of two Telegraphs

This piece by Charlie Morgan - excellent, doesn't mince words https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... s-england/

Can you cut and paste the full thing?

https://archive.ph/33Qmf any good to you?

Cheers!

[SaintK]

Also, where's Toga?

He's busy in the other place....has been for most of the day!

[Kawazaki]

Also, where's Toga?

[Torquemada 1420]

Borthwick was a superb forward and has a brilliant technical rugby brain.
I know because David Flatman was on about him on the flats and shanks podcast a few years ago.
Glowing he was about him.

England should be well pleased with him as coach, if David, three words per sentence, Flatman is anything to go by.

[Torquemada 1420]

Let's just say I think the smart money would be on Youngs & Farrell starting the majority of matches under Cockerill, Manu involved when fit, etc.

Surely there is no-one left in the corridors of power at the RFU that is that dumb?

[Torquemada 1420]

So, where next for Eddie then?

Sod's law would dictate to whoever is going to knock us out of the 2023 World Cup.

Bizarrely, the Beeb has mentioned Racing. When Lancaster is already signed there.

[SaintK]

So, where next for Eddie then?

Sod's law would dictate to whoever is going to knock us out of the 2023 World Cup.

Bizarrely, the Beeb has mentioned Racing. When Lancaster is already signed there.

Rugby League back in Sydney?
Still got all his consultantcy work and should imagine there will be a book along fairly soon.

[Lobby]

So, where next for Eddie then?

Sod's law would dictate to whoever is going to knock us out of the 2023 World Cup.

Bizarrely, the Beeb has mentioned Racing. When Lancaster is already signed there.

Rugby League back in Sydney?
Still got all his consultantcy work and should imagine there will be a book along fairly soon.

Saw a rumour a few weeks ago that he was trying to negotiate an 8-year deal with USA for after the World Cup.

[Hal Jordan]

Also, where's Toga?

How many celebratory lemsips are you up to?

[sockwithaticket]

So, where next for Eddie then?

Sod's law would dictate to whoever is going to knock us out of the 2023 World Cup.

Bizarrely, the Beeb has mentioned Racing. When Lancaster is already signed there.

Pretty on brand for their rugby coverage to be garbage.

[JM2K6]

The Times: https://archive.ph/cO35E

But also, the mood in the squad is said to have shifted. There have been consistent concerns about the poor quality of coaching, while senior players felt uncomfortable with the way Jones treated certain fringe players and staff. The RFU found that more difficult to ignore.

Many were alarmed during the Six Nations when Max Malins, the Saracens player, was reduced to tears when eviscerated by Jones. He criticised his body language around training and unceremoniously dropped him in the week of the France match.

Jones’s England environment has always been “physically and mentally uncomfortable”, according to sources, but players this year thought his mind games with them had worn thin.

“It’s been seven years of players being relieved to be out of England camps, going back to their clubs,” a source said. “There are very few who felt comfortable in that environment.”

While Jones’s intense training regime — some players were left “broken” on the eve of Tests — eased during the summer tour to Australia, results no longer papered over the cracks. Having won only once in four autumn internationals, many privately admitted that Jones had to go.

Ditched in large part for being just too much of a cunt

[dpedin]

The Times: https://archive.ph/cO35E

But also, the mood in the squad is said to have shifted. There have been consistent concerns about the poor quality of coaching, while senior players felt uncomfortable with the way Jones treated certain fringe players and staff. The RFU found that more difficult to ignore.

Many were alarmed during the Six Nations when Max Malins, the Saracens player, was reduced to tears when eviscerated by Jones. He criticised his body language around training and unceremoniously dropped him in the week of the France match.

Jones’s England environment has always been “physically and mentally uncomfortable”, according to sources, but players this year thought his mind games with them had worn thin.

“It’s been seven years of players being relieved to be out of England camps, going back to their clubs,” a source said. “There are very few who felt comfortable in that environment.”

While Jones’s intense training regime — some players were left “broken” on the eve of Tests — eased during the summer tour to Australia, results no longer papered over the cracks. Having won only once in four autumn internationals, many privately admitted that Jones had to go.

Ditched in large part for being just too much of a cunt

Completely unacceptable in this age, the wee shite was a cunt indeed. Small man syndrome.

[JM2K6]

[inactionman]

The Times: https://archive.ph/cO35E

But also, the mood in the squad is said to have shifted. There have been consistent concerns about the poor quality of coaching, while senior players felt uncomfortable with the way Jones treated certain fringe players and staff. The RFU found that more difficult to ignore.

Many were alarmed during the Six Nations when Max Malins, the Saracens player, was reduced to tears when eviscerated by Jones. He criticised his body language around training and unceremoniously dropped him in the week of the France match.

Jones’s England environment has always been “physically and mentally uncomfortable”, according to sources, but players this year thought his mind games with them had worn thin.

“It’s been seven years of players being relieved to be out of England camps, going back to their clubs,” a source said. “There are very few who felt comfortable in that environment.”

While Jones’s intense training regime — some players were left “broken” on the eve of Tests — eased during the summer tour to Australia, results no longer papered over the cracks. Having won only once in four autumn internationals, many privately admitted that Jones had to go.

Ditched in large part for being just too much of a cunt

What on earth he hoped to achieve by reducing a player to tears utterly escapes me.

Echoes of England football with Capello - made England camps such a misery that players dreaded going, resulting in cry-offs and early retirements. It certainly didn't improve performances.

Hoping his exit will revitalise a number of stalled or not-quite-made-it international careers. At least it might make representing your country a happy occasion.

[JM2K6]

None of this is really a surprise. Remember this? https://www.ruck.co.uk/f-off-mate-john- ... die-jones/

On his day off, he was leaving the England rugby camp to watch his Black Cap son Daryl play for Middlesex, when he was confronted by Jones.

The Aussie caught Mitchell as he was leaving camp, The Times reported. Jones asked him where he was going and Mitchell replied: “I’m going to the cricket.”

“No, you’re not,” Jones responded as he had some work for Mitchell to do.

The 57-year-old ignored Jones and went to the cricket anyway. Soon after, his departure as assistant coach was announced.

Kiwi-born England hooker Dylan Hartley recalled Marland Yarde arriving at England’s Pennyhill base, “a bit bruised and battered” after a club game.

“Eddie greeted him with a bright ‘How are you feeling, mate?’ and the conversation quickly went downhill. ‘Oh, a bit tired.’ ‘F… off, mate.’ ‘What?’ ‘If you’re tired, f… off. I don’t want tired players here.’ As you can imagine, their cosy fireside chat echoed around the halls within minutes.”

He never played for England again.

[SaintK]

The Times: https://archive.ph/cO35E

But also, the mood in the squad is said to have shifted. There have been consistent concerns about the poor quality of coaching, while senior players felt uncomfortable with the way Jones treated certain fringe players and staff. The RFU found that more difficult to ignore.

Many were alarmed during the Six Nations when Max Malins, the Saracens player, was reduced to tears when eviscerated by Jones. He criticised his body language around training and unceremoniously dropped him in the week of the France match.

Jones’s England environment has always been “physically and mentally uncomfortable”, according to sources, but players this year thought his mind games with them had worn thin.

“It’s been seven years of players being relieved to be out of England camps, going back to their clubs,” a source said. “There are very few who felt comfortable in that environment.”

While Jones’s intense training regime — some players were left “broken” on the eve of Tests — eased during the summer tour to Australia, results no longer papered over the cracks. Having won only once in four autumn internationals, many privately admitted that Jones had to go.

Ditched in large part for being just too much of a cunt

His treatment of the other staff particulalry the analysts was equally as bad. Mitchell got it right by just walking away from the shitstain

[geordie_6]

The Times: https://archive.ph/cO35E

But also, the mood in the squad is said to have shifted. There have been consistent concerns about the poor quality of coaching, while senior players felt uncomfortable with the way Jones treated certain fringe players and staff. The RFU found that more difficult to ignore.

Many were alarmed during the Six Nations when Max Malins, the Saracens player, was reduced to tears when eviscerated by Jones. He criticised his body language around training and unceremoniously dropped him in the week of the France match.

Jones’s England environment has always been “physically and mentally uncomfortable”, according to sources, but players this year thought his mind games with them had worn thin.

“It’s been seven years of players being relieved to be out of England camps, going back to their clubs,” a source said. “There are very few who felt comfortable in that environment.”

While Jones’s intense training regime — some players were left “broken” on the eve of Tests — eased during the summer tour to Australia, results no longer papered over the cracks. Having won only once in four autumn internationals, many privately admitted that Jones had to go.

Ditched in large part for being just too much of a cunt

And now we have Cockhead, well known for creating a happy, positive training environment

[SaintK]

The Times: https://archive.ph/cO35E

But also, the mood in the squad is said to have shifted. There have been consistent concerns about the poor quality of coaching, while senior players felt uncomfortable with the way Jones treated certain fringe players and staff. The RFU found that more difficult to ignore.

Many were alarmed during the Six Nations when Max Malins, the Saracens player, was reduced to tears when eviscerated by Jones. He criticised his body language around training and unceremoniously dropped him in the week of the France match.

Jones’s England environment has always been “physically and mentally uncomfortable”, according to sources, but players this year thought his mind games with them had worn thin.

“It’s been seven years of players being relieved to be out of England camps, going back to their clubs,” a source said. “There are very few who felt comfortable in that environment.”

While Jones’s intense training regime — some players were left “broken” on the eve of Tests — eased during the summer tour to Australia, results no longer papered over the cracks. Having won only once in four autumn internationals, many privately admitted that Jones had to go.

Ditched in large part for being just too much of a cunt

And now we have Cockhead, well known for creating a happy, positive training environment

Evidently the RFU want Borthwick in place early January and Tigers are already actively seeking his replacement. Will be interesting to see how many Tigers backroom he takes with him. My mate spoke to Cockerell yesterday and he has no idea how long he's going to be involved or even if he will still have a job when Jones's replacement comes in

[Chilli]

Now that Jones is gone.

Who are the "deadwood" players who should be leaving the England squad? And who are their replacements?

Obviously you will be hoping to play a style more suited to Smith at 10.

[Margin__Walker]

Now that Jones is gone.

Who are the "deadwood" players who should be leaving the England squad? And who are their replacements?

Obviously you will be hoping to play a style more suited to Smith at 10.

It's probably more likely that Smith drops out of the 15 with Borthwick in charge. Either way we'll likely see an end to Smith/Farrell at 10/12, with someone like Kelly straight in to 12.

I don't see huge personnel changes likely. Perhaps a revamped back row and back three, with an end to Itoje at 6.

[inactionman]

Now that Jones is gone.

Who are the "deadwood" players who should be leaving the England squad? And who are their replacements?

Obviously you will be hoping to play a style more suited to Smith at 10.

Where to start.

I had great hopes for Zach Mercer, but there's a few tidy 8s such as Dombrandt who may become more prominent. Might be nearing end for Billy, and scrum woes might mean someone like Rapava-Ruskin in for his brother - although Cockers was forwards coach previously so might not be huge changes in immediate term.

Also hoping we pick blindsides at 6, although Lawes' performances warrant a continued run (assuming recovery from concussions).

Interested to see how 10-smith 12-Farrell is seen by new coach - at 12, Dan Smith (edit - sorry, Dan Kelly) at Leicester looks good, Ollie Lawrence in good form and gets us away from reliance on Tuilagi at 13 for crashball.

Many pacey back 3 in the club sides who are worthy of a look.

Depends how revolutionary new coach wants to be. You can't just throw 15 players together, although choosing the best available in their positions is usually a good start....

[geordie_6]

The Times: https://archive.ph/cO35E



Ditched in large part for being just too much of a cunt

And now we have Cockhead, well known for creating a happy, positive training environment

Evidently the RFU want Borthwick in place early January and Tigers are already actively seeking his replacement. Will be interesting to see how many Tigers backroom he takes with him. My mate spoke to Cockerell yesterday and he has no idea how long he's going to be involved or even if he will still have a job when Jones's replacement comes in

I was hoping the RFU had moved away from their "next coach is English" stance, so we could go for Razor.

Hopefully we'll be looking at a clean sweep of the coaching staff, with Borthwick ideally bringing Sinfield with him as a start.

[Paddington Bear]

Now that Jones is gone.

Who are the "deadwood" players who should be leaving the England squad? And who are their replacements?

Obviously you will be hoping to play a style more suited to Smith at 10.

It's probably more likely that Smith drops out of the 15 with Borthwick in charge. Either way we'll likely see an end to Smith/Farrell at 10/12, with someone like Kelly straight in to 12.

I don't see huge personnel changes likely. Perhaps a revamped back row and back three, with an end to Itoje at 6.

If Borthwick is in charge a Ford recall is surely a strong possibility.

[inactionman]

Now that Jones is gone.

Who are the "deadwood" players who should be leaving the England squad? And who are their replacements?

Obviously you will be hoping to play a style more suited to Smith at 10.

It's probably more likely that Smith drops out of the 15 with Borthwick in charge. Either way we'll likely see an end to Smith/Farrell at 10/12, with someone like Kelly straight in to 12.

I don't see huge personnel changes likely. Perhaps a revamped back row and back three, with an end to Itoje at 6.

If Borthwick is in charge a Ford recall is surely a strong possibility.

I'd not be against that in and of itself, as Ford is a superb 10, but not sure where that would leave Smith.

[Margin__Walker]

I'd be fine with Ford at 10. Based on last year's form anyway

[sockwithaticket]

Now that Jones is gone.

Who are the "deadwood" players who should be leaving the England squad? And who are their replacements?

Obviously you will be hoping to play a style more suited to Smith at 10.

I think fan consenus would be that the Vunipolas and Nowell haven't justified spots to the extent that a coach other than Jones might consider getting rid of them despite their experience.

We can probably make cases for a few others like Youngs, May, Hill (mainly for his shocking discipline) and Ewels, but I suspect they'll get passes.

[sockwithaticket]

It's probably more likely that Smith drops out of the 15 with Borthwick in charge. Either way we'll likely see an end to Smith/Farrell at 10/12, with someone like Kelly straight in to 12.

I don't see huge personnel changes likely. Perhaps a revamped back row and back three, with an end to Itoje at 6.

If Borthwick is in charge a Ford recall is surely a strong possibility.

I'd not be against that in and of itself, as Ford is a superb 10, but not sure where that would leave Smith.

Doing his apprenticeship from the bench as should've been the case.

[inactionman]

If Borthwick is in charge a Ford recall is surely a strong possibility.

I'd not be against that in and of itself, as Ford is a superb 10, but not sure where that would leave Smith.

Doing his apprenticeship from the bench as should've been the case.

He's now 13 caps in, almost feels like he's passed the apprentice stage.

[SaintK]

Now that Jones is gone.

Who are the "deadwood" players who should be leaving the England squad? And who are their replacements?

Obviously you will be hoping to play a style more suited to Smith at 10.

It's probably more likely that Smith drops out of the 15 with Borthwick in charge. Either way we'll likely see an end to Smith/Farrell at 10/12, with someone like Kelly straight in to 12.

I don't see huge personnel changes likely. Perhaps a revamped back row and back three, with an end to Itoje at 6.

If Borthwick is in charge a Ford recall is surely a strong possibility.

Ford hasn't played a minutes rugby yet this season and I've no idea when he'll get a start for Sale?
Will he bring back Dank Hole who seems to have found a new lease of life under Borthwick?

[SaintK]

Now that Jones is gone.

Who are the "deadwood" players who should be leaving the England squad? And who are their replacements?

Obviously you will be hoping to play a style more suited to Smith at 10.

I think fan consenus would be that the Vunipolas and Nowell haven't justified spots to the extent that a coach other than Jones might consider getting rid of them despite their experience.

We can probably make cases for a few others like Youngs, May, Hill (mainly for his shocking discipline) and Ewels, but I suspect they'll get passes.

Whilst I agree with those names, bearing in mind how few matches there are before 2023 world cup I'm not sure just how much of a clearout of experienced players will happen

[inactionman]

Lewis Ludlam (I always want to type 'Ludlow') is apparently a fan of Eddie Jones.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63887014

The back row described Jones' manner as "extremely abrasive".

But he continued: "I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. People want to be comfortable, people want an easy environment, but the beauty of the England camp, even though it was tough at times, was that it brought the best out of you.

"Some people survive in that environment, some people don't. He was really good at understanding what character I was and what he needed to say to get the best out of me."

The issue really is that it isn't up to the player to have to survive an environment, it's for the coach to make the environment a success for the player.

Anyway, it's all been done to death. Onwards and upwards.

[JM2K6]

Lewis Ludlam (I always want to type 'Ludlow') is apparently a fan of Eddie Jones.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63887014

The back row described Jones' manner as "extremely abrasive".

But he continued: "I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. People want to be comfortable, people want an easy environment, but the beauty of the England camp, even though it was tough at times, was that it brought the best out of you.

"Some people survive in that environment, some people don't. He was really good at understanding what character I was and what he needed to say to get the best out of me."

The issue really is that it isn't up to the player to have to survive an environment, it's for the coach to make the environment a success for the player.

Anyway, it's all been done to death. Onwards and upwards.

"Average player who thrives on being treated in a particular way is happy with coach who elevated him above better players and treated him that way" shocker

[sockwithaticket]

I'd not be against that in and of itself, as Ford is a superb 10, but not sure where that would leave Smith.

Doing his apprenticeship from the bench as should've been the case.

He's now 13 caps in, almost feels like he's passed the apprentice stage.

True, although I daresay there's still quite a bit he could learn from Ford.

Not the least of which is how to manage being sandwiched between Youngs and Farrell...

[JM2K6]

Now that Jones is gone.

Who are the "deadwood" players who should be leaving the England squad? And who are their replacements?

Obviously you will be hoping to play a style more suited to Smith at 10.

I think fan consenus would be that the Vunipolas and Nowell haven't justified spots to the extent that a coach other than Jones might consider getting rid of them despite their experience.

We can probably make cases for a few others like Youngs, May, Hill (mainly for his shocking discipline) and Ewels, but I suspect they'll get passes.

Right, it'd be:

Mako Vunipola (just dreadful in the scrum, not what he used to be in the loose) -> Rodd
BIlly Vunipola (reverts to being a dull bosher for England, has repeatedly failed in tournaments, several superb options waiting in the wings) -> Dombrandt, Mercer
Youngs (it's Youngs.) -> anyone with a pulse and given the freedom to not box kick all day
May (pace isn't what it used to be, can't stay fit, low impact player now) + Nowell (slower than my mother, can't stay fit, low impact player now) -> Murley, Radwan, Hassell-Collins, Malins, Potter, etc etc
Ewels (never actually good for England) -> Ribbans, Tizard
Tuilagi (can't stay fit, was pretty low impact this autumn even when fit) -> Marchant, Lawrence

and you'd also want more of an opportunity given to players like Jack Willis.

and I'd argue that someone like Porter is a batshit selection in the first place ahead of Marchant, who is absolute class, or Lawrence, who was drummed out having been asked to play a dumb-arse crash ball role under Eddie. Porter managed to score a couple in the autumn and only shit the bed a few times, nowhere near the horror show he had in Australia, but he's still not currently international class.


Borthwick's team is likely to be a conservative one. Which means either continuing the Smith/Farrell axis, or having it be Ford & Farrell, or just Farrell at 10. Tuilagi will be nailed on. I would expect to see same-old, same-old, playing tired mid-2000s style rugby in large part. I hope I am completely wrong and doing Borthwick a huge disservice.

[JM2K6]

Doing his apprenticeship from the bench as should've been the case.

He's now 13 caps in, almost feels like he's passed the apprentice stage.

True, although I daresay there's still quite a bit he could learn from Ford.

Not the least of which is how to manage being sandwiched between Youngs and Farrell...

Absolutely. Ford is a world class tactical kicker. Smith's kicking from hand for cross kicks and territory still need work. And perhaps Smith's style of rugby would remind Ford that he used to be a brilliant gainline player himself.

[Slick]

Now that Jones is gone.

Who are the "deadwood" players who should be leaving the England squad? And who are their replacements?

Obviously you will be hoping to play a style more suited to Smith at 10.

I think fan consenus would be that the Vunipolas and Nowell haven't justified spots to the extent that a coach other than Jones might consider getting rid of them despite their experience.

We can probably make cases for a few others like Youngs, May, Hill (mainly for his shocking discipline) and Ewels, but I suspect they'll get passes.

Right, it'd be:

Mako Vunipola (just dreadful in the scrum, not what he used to be in the loose) -> Rodd
BIlly Vunipola (reverts to being a dull bosher for England, has repeatedly failed in tournaments, several superb options waiting in the wings) -> Dombrandt, Mercer
Youngs (it's Youngs.) -> anyone with a pulse and given the freedom to not box kick all day
May (pace isn't what it used to be, can't stay fit, low impact player now) + Nowell (slower than my mother, can't stay fit, low impact player now) -> Murley, Radwan, Hassell-Collins, Malins, Potter, etc etc
Ewels (never actually good for England) -> Ribbans, Tizard
Tuilagi (can't stay fit, was pretty low impact this autumn even when fit) -> Marchant, Lawrence

and you'd also want more of an opportunity given to players like Jack Willis.

From an outsiders view, all those are spot on