NPR

Biffer wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:53 pm

weegie01 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:18 pm

Biffer wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:44 am Can never understand the people who back Scotland the Brave as an anthem. It's the worst kind of heuchter teuchter shortbread tin Walter Scott wanking off a westie bollocks.

You are dead to me - speaking as a teuchter.

I'm a highlander too

Wait, was it that or are you a fan of wanking off westies?

average joe wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:00 am Wait, I'm gonna be is not the Scottish Anthem?

dpedin wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:43 am Not a Hibee but this makes my hair stand on end!

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:42 am Torq: I have a lot of time for the Haka, honestly, but there's something to be said for scarcity. And the broadcast media don't help. I guess I feel a bit jaded about what used to be a genuinely superb and unique spectacle, but now it feels very forced and sometimes the commentators are almost hectoring people to enjoy it. It used to speak for itself.

Maybe I'm just old and grumpy and have seen the same thing too often. Too much rugby causes a lot of ills.

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:51 am FoS is so good (IMO) that it essentially created the test for what makes a great anthem: If you can stop the band and the singer and let the crowd get on with it and for it to be a hair-raising experience.

For all that La Marseillaise is a great tune and a riot of a song, FoS and Land Of My Fathers are unbeatable under that metric.

I think we can all agree that both Aussie songs are risible, the NZ anthem is as dull as you'd expect, the other Latin ones are far too long, and the less said about the Irish the better.

edit: The joys of working from home: I am now playing Youtube videos for the Scottish and Welsh anthems

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:33 pm
1) It became hijacked as a commercial spectacle and so as tedious as seeing ITV's adverts between the anthems and the KO.

Yep - production values took over.

2) The Keewees undermined its value with the totally sh*t, self absorbent, Plastic Haka which has zero cultural roots.

Ka Mate is the one and only true AB's haka. Kapa O Pango - while I understand why it was introduced - is terrible - long and underwhelming.

3) The Keewees undermined everyone else's respect for the real Haka because of their ludicrous preciousness over it all.

What is the preciousness that you are talking about? Genuinely I don't know what the AB's and NZ have done that makes folk lose respect for them....unless you are talking about the all round embarrassment of Wales 2006?

Niegs wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:17 am After all this, I was thinking Big Country - In a Big Country would be fun, but it's too fast.

Alive and Kicking by Simple Minds has a great sing-along-able part...

What you gonna do when things go wrong?
What you gonna do when it all cracks up?
What you gonna do when Murrayfield burns down?
What you gonna do when the flames go up?
Who is gonna come and turn the tide?
What's it gonna take to make a dream survive?
Who's got the touch to calm the storm inside?
Don't say goodbye
Don't say goodbye
In the final seconds who's gonna save you?

Oh, Alive and Kicking

Thor Sedan wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:50 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:33 pm
1) It became hijacked as a commercial spectacle and so as tedious as seeing ITV's adverts between the anthems and the KO.

Yep - production values took over.

2) The Keewees undermined its value with the totally sh*t, self absorbent, Plastic Haka which has zero cultural roots.

Ka Mate is the one and only true AB's haka. Kapa O Pango - while I understand why it was introduced - is terrible - long and underwhelming.

3) The Keewees undermined everyone else's respect for the real Haka because of their ludicrous preciousness over it all.

What is the preciousness that you are talking about? Genuinely I don't know what the AB's and NZ have done that makes folk lose respect for them....unless you are talking about the all round embarrassment of Wales 2006?

sockwithaticket wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:17 pm

Thor Sedan wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:50 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:33 pm
1) It became hijacked as a commercial spectacle and so as tedious as seeing ITV's adverts between the anthems and the KO.

Yep - production values took over.

2) The Keewees undermined its value with the totally sh*t, self absorbent, Plastic Haka which has zero cultural roots.

Ka Mate is the one and only true AB's haka. Kapa O Pango - while I understand why it was introduced - is terrible - long and underwhelming.

3) The Keewees undermined everyone else's respect for the real Haka because of their ludicrous preciousness over it all.

What is the preciousness that you are talking about? Genuinely I don't know what the AB's and NZ have done that makes folk lose respect for them....unless you are talking about the all round embarrassment of Wales 2006?

I think some interpret the regulations around what opposing teams can do in response to the haka as being at the behest of New Zealand.

Lobby wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:14 pm Its not just the 2006 toilet haka, but World Rugby now mandating how teams are and are not allowed to react to the Haka.

In 2011 France were fined for not respecting the Haka and breaching World Rugby's "cultural ritual protocol".

Similarly, after the 2019 RWC game, England were fined for breaking World Rugby's rules "relating to cultural challenges".

JM2K6 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:52 am Was 2006 the famous Toilet Haka?

Thor Sedan wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:41 pm

Lobby wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:14 pm Its not just the 2006 toilet haka, but World Rugby now mandating how teams are and are not allowed to react to the Haka.

In 2011 France were fined for not respecting the Haka and breaching World Rugby's "cultural ritual protocol".

Similarly, after the 2019 RWC game, England were fined for breaking World Rugby's rules "relating to cultural challenges".

Yeah....it's rubbish and I thoroughly disagree with the rulings.

But I don't think you can level this at Kewee preciousness. It seems like the RFU are just trying to hard to be seen to be respectful of a cultural 'ritual'.

I would be incredibly surprised if any Kiwi felt threatened if another team encroached on the Haka.....I would suggest that most of us would absolutely love it and respect the challenge.

It's just weird to suggest Kiwi preciousness is the root of all the issue around the Haka.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:54 pm
It's a pantomime anachronism at best made all the more so since few ABs are actually Maoris these days (cultural appropriation personified?). Time to get rid.

Lobby wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:00 pm

Thor Sedan wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:41 pm

Lobby wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:14 pm Its not just the 2006 toilet haka, but World Rugby now mandating how teams are and are not allowed to react to the Haka.

In 2011 France were fined for not respecting the Haka and breaching World Rugby's "cultural ritual protocol".

Similarly, after the 2019 RWC game, England were fined for breaking World Rugby's rules "relating to cultural challenges".

Yeah....it's rubbish and I thoroughly disagree with the rulings.

But I don't think you can level this at Kewee preciousness. It seems like the RFU are just trying to hard to be seen to be respectful of a cultural 'ritual'.

I would be incredibly surprised if any Kiwi felt threatened if another team encroached on the Haka.....I would suggest that most of us would absolutely love it and respect the challenge.

It's just weird to suggest Kiwi preciousness is the root of all the issue around the Haka.

I agree that it’s World Rugby (not RFU) who have decided that they need to set ‘cultural ritual’ rules, rather than the NZRU. However, there’s no doubt that the All Blacks are the major beneficiaries of this attempt to police how other teams are allowed to respond to their increasingly overblown and commercialised ‘ritual’.

Thor Sedan wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:19 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:54 pm
It's a pantomime anachronism at best made all the more so since few ABs are actually Maoris these days (cultural appropriation personified?). Time to get rid.

If you want to get started on the 'average' AB fan.....they think pretty much like you. We love the Haka - but we hate all the rubbish that surrounds it. We hate the fact that it has turned into a stage production. But by all means feel free to hate it. Just adds to the spice of the game we love.

I would just say - be a little careful of throwing cultural appropriation accusations around. NZ has worked incredibly hard to create an encompassing and appreciated culture in its society.

On my recent trip back to NZ it was actually pretty inspiring how Maori culture is now celebrated in NZ rather than endured. Maori and Pakeha have really taken te reo to heart. It is now spoken on all mainstream channels, is part of the base school curriculum. The culture is not seen as Maori - it is seen as the accepted culture of NZ and that should be celebrated.

Also - I'm not sure if you're trolling or genuinely don't understand how the population of NZ is comprised - but some of the 'white' faces looking out at you while doing the haka actually do have a very deep setting in Maori culture - both through ancestry and the simple fact that they are New Zealanders. Unlike some other countries - if you live in NZ and call yourself a New Zealander then the culture is yours.

Thor Sedan wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:19 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:54 pm
It's a pantomime anachronism at best made all the more so since few ABs are actually Maoris these days (cultural appropriation personified?). Time to get rid.

If you want to get started on the 'average' AB fan.....they think pretty much like you. We love the Haka - but we hate all the rubbish that surrounds it. We hate the fact that it has turned into a stage production. But by all means feel free to hate it. Just adds to the spice of the game we love.

I would just say - be a little careful of throwing cultural appropriation accusations around. NZ has worked incredibly hard to create an encompassing and appreciated culture in its society.

On my recent trip back to NZ it was actually pretty inspiring how Maori culture is now celebrated in NZ rather than endured. Maori and Pakeha have really taken te reo to heart. It is now spoken on all mainstream channels, is part of the base school curriculum. The culture is not seen as Maori - it is seen as the accepted culture of NZ and that should be celebrated.

Also - I'm not sure if you're trolling or genuinely don't understand how the population of NZ is comprised - but some of the 'white' faces looking out at you while doing the haka actually do have a very deep setting in Maori culture - both through ancestry and the simple fact that they are New Zealanders. Unlike some other countries - if you live in NZ and call yourself a New Zealander then the culture is yours.

Lobby wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:00 pm

Thor Sedan wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:41 pm

Lobby wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:14 pm Its not just the 2006 toilet haka, but World Rugby now mandating how teams are and are not allowed to react to the Haka.

In 2011 France were fined for not respecting the Haka and breaching World Rugby's "cultural ritual protocol".

Similarly, after the 2019 RWC game, England were fined for breaking World Rugby's rules "relating to cultural challenges".

Yeah....it's rubbish and I thoroughly disagree with the rulings.

But I don't think you can level this at Kewee preciousness. It seems like the RFU are just trying to hard to be seen to be respectful of a cultural 'ritual'.

I would be incredibly surprised if any Kiwi felt threatened if another team encroached on the Haka.....I would suggest that most of us would absolutely love it and respect the challenge.

It's just weird to suggest Kiwi preciousness is the root of all the issue around the Haka.

I agree that it’s World Rugby (not RFU) who have decided that they need to set ‘cultural ritual’ rules, rather than the NZRU. However, there’s no doubt that the All Blacks are the major beneficiaries of this attempt to police how other teams are allowed to respond to their increasingly overblown and commercialised ‘ritual’.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:07 pm

Thor Sedan wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:19 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:54 pm
It's a pantomime anachronism at best made all the more so since few ABs are actually Maoris these days (cultural appropriation personified?). Time to get rid.

If you want to get started on the 'average' AB fan.....they think pretty much like you. We love the Haka - but we hate all the rubbish that surrounds it. We hate the fact that it has turned into a stage production. But by all means feel free to hate it. Just adds to the spice of the game we love.

I would just say - be a little careful of throwing cultural appropriation accusations around. NZ has worked incredibly hard to create an encompassing and appreciated culture in its society.

On my recent trip back to NZ it was actually pretty inspiring how Maori culture is now celebrated in NZ rather than endured. Maori and Pakeha have really taken te reo to heart. It is now spoken on all mainstream channels, is part of the base school curriculum. The culture is not seen as Maori - it is seen as the accepted culture of NZ and that should be celebrated.

Also - I'm not sure if you're trolling or genuinely don't understand how the population of NZ is comprised - but some of the 'white' faces looking out at you while doing the haka actually do have a very deep setting in Maori culture - both through ancestry and the simple fact that they are New Zealanders. Unlike some other countries - if you live in NZ and call yourself a New Zealander then the culture is yours.

To be clear, I don't hate it. Worse, I have reached the zone of apathy/contempt for it! And I mean in a rugby context.

I hear your last point but being a Maori makes you a NZer but surely that isn't the case the other way round. How does this differ, say, from the Kansas City Chiefs? After all the citizens of Kansas could probably use the same basis of argument i.e. proximity and enough time qualifies as a merger of cultures? But stepping aside from that, from your own qualifier (red), not all ABs make the grade of Maori and so what are they doing the Haka for except as part of the stage production?

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:07 pm

Thor Sedan wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:19 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:54 pm
It's a pantomime anachronism at best made all the more so since few ABs are actually Maoris these days (cultural appropriation personified?). Time to get rid.

If you want to get started on the 'average' AB fan.....they think pretty much like you. We love the Haka - but we hate all the rubbish that surrounds it. We hate the fact that it has turned into a stage production. But by all means feel free to hate it. Just adds to the spice of the game we love.

I would just say - be a little careful of throwing cultural appropriation accusations around. NZ has worked incredibly hard to create an encompassing and appreciated culture in its society.

On my recent trip back to NZ it was actually pretty inspiring how Maori culture is now celebrated in NZ rather than endured. Maori and Pakeha have really taken te reo to heart. It is now spoken on all mainstream channels, is part of the base school curriculum. The culture is not seen as Maori - it is seen as the accepted culture of NZ and that should be celebrated.

Also - I'm not sure if you're trolling or genuinely don't understand how the population of NZ is comprised - but some of the 'white' faces looking out at you while doing the haka actually do have a very deep setting in Maori culture - both through ancestry and the simple fact that they are New Zealanders. Unlike some other countries - if you live in NZ and call yourself a New Zealander then the culture is yours.

To be clear, I don't hate it. Worse, I have reached the zone of apathy/contempt for it! And I mean in a rugby context.

I hear your last point but being a Maori makes you a NZer but surely that isn't the case the other way round. How does this differ, say, from the Kansas City Chiefs? After all the citizens of Kansas could probably use the same basis of argument i.e. proximity and enough time qualifies as a merger of cultures? But stepping aside from that, from your own qualifier (red), not all ABs make the grade of Maori and so what are they doing the Haka for except as part of the stage production?

inactionman wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:31 pm
Not by race, but they can surely be an active part of an integrated culture - which is just ultimately a set of norms and customs.

I'm not sure the Kansas City Chiefs are all that engaged in native American (is that the correct term?) culture.

Simian wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:32 pm
The distinction between celebration with buy in and support from the native groups versus branding that was vocally opposed by the native groups is a pretty important distinction here, surely?

You'd have a fair argument (imo) when the Haka wasn't taken particularly seriously by the ABs. Shelford (among others) did a lot to change that tho. So I just don't see it as comparable to the type of branding the KC chiefs etc have dropped.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:00 pm

Simian wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:32 pm
The distinction between celebration with buy in and support from the native groups versus branding that was vocally opposed by the native groups is a pretty important distinction here, surely?

You'd have a fair argument (imo) when the Haka wasn't taken particularly seriously by the ABs. Shelford (among others) did a lot to change that tho. So I just don't see it as comparable to the type of branding the KC chiefs etc have dropped.

See above. I deliberately chose the Kansas example as the wrong extreme for the purposes of discussion. Question is where and who decides amongst the shades of grey where the boundaries lie? PS Note that native groups do not speak with a uniform voice on these matters either.

The underlying problem with the Haka is within Thor's own words: the commercialisation of it.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:00 pm

Simian wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:32 pm
The distinction between celebration with buy in and support from the native groups versus branding that was vocally opposed by the native groups is a pretty important distinction here, surely?

You'd have a fair argument (imo) when the Haka wasn't taken particularly seriously by the ABs. Shelford (among others) did a lot to change that tho. So I just don't see it as comparable to the type of branding the KC chiefs etc have dropped.

See above. I deliberately chose the Kansas example as the wrong extreme for the purposes of discussion. Question is where and who decides amongst the shades of grey where the boundaries lie? PS Note that native groups do not speak with a uniform voice on these matters either.

The underlying problem with the Haka is within Thor's own words: the commercialisation of it.

Niegs wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:20 pm I do think how giddy people get for the haka is as weird

Simian wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:19 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:00 pm

Simian wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:32 pm
The distinction between celebration with buy in and support from the native groups versus branding that was vocally opposed by the native groups is a pretty important distinction here, surely?

You'd have a fair argument (imo) when the Haka wasn't taken particularly seriously by the ABs. Shelford (among others) did a lot to change that tho. So I just don't see it as comparable to the type of branding the KC chiefs etc have dropped.

See above. I deliberately chose the Kansas example as the wrong extreme for the purposes of discussion. Question is where and who decides amongst the shades of grey where the boundaries lie? PS Note that native groups do not speak with a uniform voice on these matters either.

The underlying problem with the Haka is within Thor's own words: the commercialisation of it.

You asked what the difference was between the Haka and KC Chiefs branding, but seem to already recognise the difference between them, so that was a bit of a weird question really

To elaborate, the difference is essentially coproduction (directly involving groups and/or representatives from groups who might be able to usefully contribute to the development). The development of the Haka is often used as a good example of how successful coproduction can be. Things like the KC chief's branding are a great example of where coproduction would have been enormously beneficial.

It's nothing to do with people making a unilateral decision about what is or isn't acceptable or groups necessarily speaking with a unified voice. It's about making good faith attempts to ensure the groups' voices are heard and that they have input.

As I mentioned earlier on this thread, I'm not a fan of anthems and find the haka boring. But this idea that it's in any way akin to appropriation of Native American imagery for sports teams is fundamentally wrong.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:04 pm

Simian wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:19 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:00 pm
See above. I deliberately chose the Kansas example as the wrong extreme for the purposes of discussion. Question is where and who decides amongst the shades of grey where the boundaries lie? PS Note that native groups do not speak with a uniform voice on these matters either.

The underlying problem with the Haka is within Thor's own words: the commercialisation of it.

You asked what the difference was between the Haka and KC Chiefs branding, but seem to already recognise the difference between them, so that was a bit of a weird question really

To elaborate, the difference is essentially coproduction (directly involving groups and/or representatives from groups who might be able to usefully contribute to the development). The development of the Haka is often used as a good example of how successful coproduction can be. Things like the KC chief's branding are a great example of where coproduction would have been enormously beneficial.

It's nothing to do with people making a unilateral decision about what is or isn't acceptable or groups necessarily speaking with a unified voice. It's about making good faith attempts to ensure the groups' voices are heard and that they have input.

As I mentioned earlier on this thread, I'm not a fan of anthems and find the haka boring. But this idea that it's in any way akin to appropriation of Native American imagery for sports teams is fundamentally wrong.

Like I said, it was to provoke discussion. That example was easy but by no means ubiquitous.

The bit in red sounds so reasonable but the real world is that someone has to make a decision (yes or no) and not everybody with a legitimate interest is going to agree with that decision. So, who is the ultimate arbiter?

Biffer wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:36 pm Back on the topic, if you want a good Scots song that might work as an anthem, then Frredom come all ye is a good bet.

Dogbert wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:53 pm

Biffer wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:36 pm Back on the topic, if you want a good Scots song that might work as an anthem, then Frredom come all ye is a good bet.

Real anthemic song - best versio I've heard is Karine Polwart



One of the isues however is Hamish Henderson never wanted it to be used as an Anthem

The language woud put some people off . but its easy to sing as the tune is in a single octave

The song's tune is an adaptation of the First World War pipe march "The Bloody Fields of Flanders

As for Scotland the Brave - great tune - but the words are twee , and no one knows them anyway

Simian wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:12 pm

Dogbert wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:53 pm

Biffer wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:36 pm Back on the topic, if you want a good Scots song that might work as an anthem, then Frredom come all ye is a good bet.

Real anthemic song - best versio I've heard is Karine Polwart



One of the isues however is Hamish Henderson never wanted it to be used as an Anthem

The language woud put some people off . but its easy to sing as the tune is in a single octave

The song's tune is an adaptation of the First World War pipe march "The Bloody Fields of Flanders

As for Scotland the Brave - great tune - but the words are twee , and no one knows them anyway

Karine Polwart is one of my very favourite singers. (and sorry for derailing the thread earlier!)

Slick wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:17 pm

Simian wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:12 pm

Dogbert wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:53 pm

Real anthemic song - best versio I've heard is Karine Polwart



One of the isues however is Hamish Henderson never wanted it to be used as an Anthem

The language woud put some people off . but its easy to sing as the tune is in a single octave

The song's tune is an adaptation of the First World War pipe march "The Bloody Fields of Flanders

As for Scotland the Brave - great tune - but the words are twee , and no one knows them anyway

Karine Polwart is one of my very favourite singers. (and sorry for derailing the thread earlier!)

Don’t be silly, it’s how this place works.

Have to admit I’ve never heard that song or of her, will be listening to more in the morning!

Is there a version somewhere with pipes? We must have pipes

Dogbert wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:29 pm

Slick wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:17 pm

Simian wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:12 pm

Karine Polwart is one of my very favourite singers. (and sorry for derailing the thread earlier!)

Don’t be silly, it’s how this place works.

Have to admit I’ve never heard that song or of her, will be listening to more in the morning!

Is there a version somewhere with pipes? We must have pipes

As Requested

If played too slowly , it can become a bit of a dirge



It was also played at the closing cermony of the 2014 Commonwealth Games

I know people have issues with the Scots in it , but just look on it as modern day Burns