Where are the Welsh posters?

[Hellraiser]

I’m always fascinated by their desperation to ‘break’ new markets - they are aware that rugby is a minority sport in just about every Tier 1 nation?

I think that rich expats is the ideal market for rugby to break into.

Welsh rugby is done, there's never going to be a viable pathway because rugby can't fight social change and they don't have a public school system.

Their incomings match the IRFU. They could turn it around if they stopped spaffing the cash away.

That won't change as long as the amateur clubmen control the WRU purse strings.

[_Os_]

I watched with a Welsh guy. I knew more about the Welsh players than he did through watching the URC, he didn't know who a lot of them were. The Welsh management/coaching team has done a terrible job of managing player turnover, feels like one entire generation has exited and another has entered. Has to be lowest point in Welsh rugby? There's still buckets of tickets unsold for the Boks going for £50, almost cannot give them away.

Looks like Welsh structures haven't changed for decades, still struggling with professionalism. They hide this by getting a Kiwi coach to build a national team outside of their otherwise dysfunctional structures. What needs to be done is obvious:

1. Get rid of Gatland. Past it and has nothing further to add, no further innovations or new ideas. He's finished as a high level coach. Allowing him to rebuild means he builds an outdated Gatland team.

2. They have to get more professional off the pitch. It's not a player issue, it's an issue around being behind other countries in coaching/conditioning/training. They need at least one URC side with a credible chance of winning a title, this alone would produce more credible coaching staff. Some Welsh blame it on the URC itself, they just take rugby below test level less seriously (including the supporters) and are less professional. This feeds directly into the test side when there isn't a lot of heavily experienced players to select. If they keep underperforming in the URC they're going stay on a rollercoaster in test rugby, a lot of player development which should be happening in the URC they're doing at test level. Their URC underperformance relative to the Irish and Scottish sides makes little sense.

3. A subsection of their supporters moan about amateur clubs a lot. They should have one or two giant rugby festivals per year, focused on age grade sides, one location lots of teams and matches. Like Craven Week in SA. This gives young men something to aim for, it's like a world cup for them. It's real purpose is sorting the excellent players from the good ones, if they do this it'll become crucial to their player and coaching pipeline. Seems a lot of energy is going into moaning about things which will not help them (abolishing URC teams and replacing them with clubs, joining the English Premiership), rather than being directed at smaller improvements fully in their control which would help them.

Not buying that the Wobblies have turned things around. A bit ridiculous they're still on for a grand slam.

[Slick]

I watched with a Welsh guy. I knew more about the Welsh players than he did through watching the URC, he didn't know who a lot of them were. The Welsh management/coaching team has done a terrible job of managing player turnover, feels like one entire generation has exited and another has entered. Has to be lowest point in Welsh rugby? There's still buckets of tickets unsold for the Boks going for £50, almost cannot give them away.

Looks like Welsh structures haven't changed for decades, still struggling with professionalism. They hide this by getting a Kiwi coach to build a national team outside of their otherwise dysfunctional structures. What needs to be done is obvious:

1. Get rid of Gatland. Past it and has nothing further to add, no further innovations or new ideas. He's finished as a high level coach. Allowing him to rebuild means he builds an outdated Gatland team.

2. They have to get more professional off the pitch. It's not a player issue, it's an issue around being behind other countries in coaching/conditioning/training. They need at least one URC side with a credible chance of winning a title, this alone would produce more credible coaching staff. Some Welsh blame it on the URC itself, they just take rugby below test level less seriously (including the supporters) and are less professional. This feeds directly into the test side when there isn't a lot of heavily experienced players to select. If they keep underperforming in the URC they're going stay on a rollercoaster in test rugby, a lot of player development which should be happening in the URC they're doing at test level. Their URC underperformance relative to the Irish and Scottish sides makes little sense.

3. A subsection of their supporters moan about amateur clubs a lot. They should have one or two giant rugby festivals per year, focused on age grade sides, one location lots of teams and matches. Like Craven Week in SA. This gives young men something to aim for, it's like a world cup for them. It's real purpose is sorting the excellent players from the good ones, if they do this it'll become crucial to their player and coaching pipeline. Seems a lot of energy is going into moaning about things which will not help them (abolishing URC teams and replacing them with clubs, joining the English Premiership), rather than being directed at smaller improvements fully in their control which would help them.

Not buying that the Wobblies have turned things around. A bit ridiculous they're still on for a grand slam.

I think unless you spend time in Wales at small grass roots clubs (and you may well have) it’s difficult to understand what rugby clubs mean to the majority of Welsh people. A lot of these clubs are the absolute lifeblood of communities, many of whom have been pretty devastated over the last couple of decades. I don’t think it’s as easy as saying be more professional. I also think it’s pretty terminal

[I like neeps]

I’m always fascinated by their desperation to ‘break’ new markets - they are aware that rugby is a minority sport in just about every Tier 1 nation?

I think that rich expats is the ideal market for rugby to break into.

Welsh rugby is done, there's never going to be a viable pathway because rugby can't fight social change and they don't have a public school system.

Their incomings match the IRFU. They could turn it around if they stopped spaffing the cash away.

Do the IRFU get the revenue from the big club games? If so I find that genuinely astonishing.

The IRFU also have the Irish schools system as a reliable farm for great prospects. Much like Scotland, Wales' traditional heartlands of rugby are no more because of social change. And both lack the really elite schools.

[Paddington Bear]

I think that rich expats is the ideal market for rugby to break into.

Welsh rugby is done, there's never going to be a viable pathway because rugby can't fight social change and they don't have a public school system.

Their incomings match the IRFU. They could turn it around if they stopped spaffing the cash away.

Do the IRFU get the revenue from the big club games? If so I find that genuinely astonishing.

The IRFU also have the Irish schools system as a reliable farm for great prospects. Much like Scotland, Wales' traditional heartlands of rugby are no more because of social change. And both lack the really elite schools.

Scotland has more than enough private schools to churn out pro rugby players, Wales admittedly does not.

Don’t think we can ignore the absolute centrifugal force that is football - Welsh football is on the up and if it ever were true that rugby was more popular then it is certainly not true from 30 somethings younger.

Can they come back from this? Probably not with a fully developed pro pathway. They’re better off in the state they’re in emulating Argentina of a few years ago, keep your club game amateur and relatively competitive, send your players off to earn money and develop overseas, rely on a small talent pool and passionate displays to win enough games to remain relevant

[Biffer]

Their incomings match the IRFU. They could turn it around if they stopped spaffing the cash away.

Do the IRFU get the revenue from the big club games? If so I find that genuinely astonishing.

The IRFU also have the Irish schools system as a reliable farm for great prospects. Much like Scotland, Wales' traditional heartlands of rugby are no more because of social change. And both lack the really elite schools.

Scotland has more than enough private schools to churn out pro rugby players, Wales admittedly does not.

Don’t think we can ignore the absolute centrifugal force that is football - Welsh football is on the up and if it ever were true that rugby was more popular then it is certainly not true from 30 somethings younger.

Can they come back from this? Probably not with a fully developed pro pathway. They’re better off in the state they’re in emulating Argentina of a few years ago, keep your club game amateur and relatively competitive, send your players off to earn money and develop overseas, rely on a small talent pool and passionate displays to win enough games to remain relevant

Yeah, we find ourselves halfway between the Welsh and Irish situations wrt schools v clubs I reckon. We’ve not done enough to build the relationships between the two.

[_Os_]

I think unless you spend time in Wales at small grass roots clubs (and you may well have) it’s difficult to understand what rugby clubs mean to the majority of Welsh people. A lot of these clubs are the absolute lifeblood of communities, many of whom have been pretty devastated over the last couple of decades. I don’t think it’s as easy as saying be more professional. I also think it’s pretty terminal

I've been to some of those clubs. Only way to integrate them into the structure is as a player pathway for young men, and a coaching pathway at the better clubs. They're too small to function as the highest level below test rugby, unless Wales opts for spreading the cash a lot more thinly over more sides than 4 URC sides.

SA Super Rugby sides struggled before the mid-00s, other than the Sharks. Just not as professional. Ironically the Cats/Lions often produced excellent Boks, it's very easy to spot a quality player in an otherwise poor team. Player development was being done in the national team setup, this weakened the national team. The Bulls were in the cellar back then, they ended up winning titles. All of the original Super Rugby sides did end up making it to multiple finals in the pro era, from a position where only the Sharks could. It took years so wasn't quick or easy, but on some level it is "be more professional" however that's phrased.

Wales need to remake their entire structure. Will take minimum one full RWC cycle. They do have the player resources, they could rebuild in a siloed national side, but that means extreme highs and lows.

They should be as good as Ireland, but the Irish have put a lot of effort into coaching and player skill development. I remember watching Aki playing in Super Rugby, had him in my fantasy side because he was cheap and unnoticed. He was an underrated okay player. The level of value add from whatever coaches have done with him in Ireland is absurd, he wasn't that remarkable in NZ.

[fishfoodie]

Wales might not have the schools, but it does have a huge network of clubs that Ireland could never hope to emulate. Those clubs fed the Welsh great sides that dominated in the years before Professionalism !

The difference was that Ireland had that layer between Club, & Nation, & that was the Provinces. It was great for a player from your club to turn out for the Province, because everyone knew that that was the next step up to that first cap.

In Wales the amateur clubs see themselves in competition with the URC sides, because it's more important to them that they keep player x, so that they have a better chance of beating the club the next valley over, & fuck the URC, & the Wales side !

It's a parasitic, not symbiotic relationship; but they don't seem to realise that if the host dies, then so do they !

[Uncle fester]

I think that rich expats is the ideal market for rugby to break into.

Welsh rugby is done, there's never going to be a viable pathway because rugby can't fight social change and they don't have a public school system.

Their incomings match the IRFU. They could turn it around if they stopped spaffing the cash away.

Do the IRFU get the revenue from the big club games? If so I find that genuinely astonishing.

The IRFU also have the Irish schools system as a reliable farm for great prospects. Much like Scotland, Wales' traditional heartlands of rugby are no more because of social change. And both lack the really elite schools.

The big stadium is a huge money spinner for them.
Their problems are not money problems.

[Slick]

I think unless you spend time in Wales at small grass roots clubs (and you may well have) it’s difficult to understand what rugby clubs mean to the majority of Welsh people. A lot of these clubs are the absolute lifeblood of communities, many of whom have been pretty devastated over the last couple of decades. I don’t think it’s as easy as saying be more professional. I also think it’s pretty terminal

I've been to some of those clubs. Only way to integrate them into the structure is as a player pathway for young men, and a coaching pathway at the better clubs. They're too small to function as the highest level below test rugby, unless Wales opts for spreading the cash a lot more thinly over more sides than 4 URC sides.

SA Super Rugby sides struggled before the mid-00s, other than the Sharks. Just not as professional. Ironically the Cats/Lions often produced excellent Boks, it's very easy to spot a quality player in an otherwise poor team. Player development was being done in the national team setup, this weakened the national team. The Bulls were in the cellar back then, they ended up winning titles. All of the original Super Rugby sides did end up making it to multiple finals in the pro era, from a position where only the Sharks could. It took years so wasn't quick or easy, but on some level it is "be more professional" however that's phrased.

Wales need to remake their entire structure. Will take minimum one full RWC cycle. They do have the player resources, they could rebuild in a siloed national side, but that means extreme highs and lows.

They should be as good as Ireland, but the Irish have put a lot of effort into coaching and player skill development. I remember watching Aki playing in Super Rugby, had him in my fantasy side because he was cheap and unnoticed. He was an underrated okay player. The level of value add from whatever coaches have done with him in Ireland is absurd, he wasn't that remarkable in NZ.

That's not what I'm getting at here. I'm saying that the WRU have a much wider responsibility than just the big clubs and pathways and I think it's a much more difficult situation than in most other countries. The small grass roots clubs are rugby clubs, pubs, community centres and the absolute centre of many of these communities, a big proportion of which have changed massively over the last 2 or 3 decades. You can have as many pathways as you want but if these small clubs don't exist or function you have no players. There are very, very limited other ways for kids to play rugby and it's much easier to stick up some goals and get 11 kids to kick a football. If these much derided grassroots clubs disappear, so does rugby.

[Biffer]

I think unless you spend time in Wales at small grass roots clubs (and you may well have) it’s difficult to understand what rugby clubs mean to the majority of Welsh people. A lot of these clubs are the absolute lifeblood of communities, many of whom have been pretty devastated over the last couple of decades. I don’t think it’s as easy as saying be more professional. I also think it’s pretty terminal

I've been to some of those clubs. Only way to integrate them into the structure is as a player pathway for young men, and a coaching pathway at the better clubs. They're too small to function as the highest level below test rugby, unless Wales opts for spreading the cash a lot more thinly over more sides than 4 URC sides.

SA Super Rugby sides struggled before the mid-00s, other than the Sharks. Just not as professional. Ironically the Cats/Lions often produced excellent Boks, it's very easy to spot a quality player in an otherwise poor team. Player development was being done in the national team setup, this weakened the national team. The Bulls were in the cellar back then, they ended up winning titles. All of the original Super Rugby sides did end up making it to multiple finals in the pro era, from a position where only the Sharks could. It took years so wasn't quick or easy, but on some level it is "be more professional" however that's phrased.

Wales need to remake their entire structure. Will take minimum one full RWC cycle. They do have the player resources, they could rebuild in a siloed national side, but that means extreme highs and lows.

They should be as good as Ireland, but the Irish have put a lot of effort into coaching and player skill development. I remember watching Aki playing in Super Rugby, had him in my fantasy side because he was cheap and unnoticed. He was an underrated okay player. The level of value add from whatever coaches have done with him in Ireland is absurd, he wasn't that remarkable in NZ.

That's not what I'm getting at here. I'm saying that the WRU have a much wider responsibility than just the big clubs and pathways and I think it's a much more difficult situation than in most other countries. The small grass roots clubs are rugby clubs, pubs, community centres and the absolute centre of many of these communities, a big proportion of which have changed massively over the last 2 or 3 decades. You can have as many pathways as you want but if these small clubs don't exist or function you have no players. There are very, very limited other ways for kids to play rugby and it's much easier to stick up some goals and get 11 kids to kick a football. If these much derided grassroots clubs disappear, so does rugby.

That's not a reason to subsidise clubs to pay players £50-70k for playing. Someone on that amount should be in a pro squad.

[fishfoodie]

I've been to some of those clubs. Only way to integrate them into the structure is as a player pathway for young men, and a coaching pathway at the better clubs. They're too small to function as the highest level below test rugby, unless Wales opts for spreading the cash a lot more thinly over more sides than 4 URC sides.

SA Super Rugby sides struggled before the mid-00s, other than the Sharks. Just not as professional. Ironically the Cats/Lions often produced excellent Boks, it's very easy to spot a quality player in an otherwise poor team. Player development was being done in the national team setup, this weakened the national team. The Bulls were in the cellar back then, they ended up winning titles. All of the original Super Rugby sides did end up making it to multiple finals in the pro era, from a position where only the Sharks could. It took years so wasn't quick or easy, but on some level it is "be more professional" however that's phrased.

Wales need to remake their entire structure. Will take minimum one full RWC cycle. They do have the player resources, they could rebuild in a siloed national side, but that means extreme highs and lows.

They should be as good as Ireland, but the Irish have put a lot of effort into coaching and player skill development. I remember watching Aki playing in Super Rugby, had him in my fantasy side because he was cheap and unnoticed. He was an underrated okay player. The level of value add from whatever coaches have done with him in Ireland is absurd, he wasn't that remarkable in NZ.

That's not what I'm getting at here. I'm saying that the WRU have a much wider responsibility than just the big clubs and pathways and I think it's a much more difficult situation than in most other countries. The small grass roots clubs are rugby clubs, pubs, community centres and the absolute centre of many of these communities, a big proportion of which have changed massively over the last 2 or 3 decades. You can have as many pathways as you want but if these small clubs don't exist or function you have no players. There are very, very limited other ways for kids to play rugby and it's much easier to stick up some goals and get 11 kids to kick a football. If these much derided grassroots clubs disappear, so does rugby.

That's not a reason to subsidise clubs to pay players £50-70k for playing. Someone on that amount should be in a pro squad.

Exactly !

It's all very well to share out the money; but if you only have one loaf of bread, & you decide to share it out between 2,000 people, everyone gets a crumb, so everyone starves !

You can't pretend every club, & every amateur coach deserves the same level of funding; it just isn't true. You have to pick the top few percent, & fund them, & try to do so with a decent geographic spread, so you maximize your catchment area.

But as pointed out above, the WRU decisions fail at the first hurdle, because they need to get the clubs to agree to less money.

[Biffer]

That's not what I'm getting at here. I'm saying that the WRU have a much wider responsibility than just the big clubs and pathways and I think it's a much more difficult situation than in most other countries. The small grass roots clubs are rugby clubs, pubs, community centres and the absolute centre of many of these communities, a big proportion of which have changed massively over the last 2 or 3 decades. You can have as many pathways as you want but if these small clubs don't exist or function you have no players. There are very, very limited other ways for kids to play rugby and it's much easier to stick up some goals and get 11 kids to kick a football. If these much derided grassroots clubs disappear, so does rugby.

That's not a reason to subsidise clubs to pay players £50-70k for playing. Someone on that amount should be in a pro squad.

Exactly !

It's all very well to share out the money; but if you only have one loaf of bread, & you decide to share it out between 2,000 people, everyone gets a crumb, so everyone starves !

You can't pretend every club, & every amateur coach deserves the same level of funding; it just isn't true. You have to pick the top few percent, & fund them, & try to do so with a decent geographic spread, so you maximize your catchment area.

But as pointed out above, the WRU decisions fail at the first hurdle, because they need to get the clubs to agree to less money.

They should be attaching caveats to money given to clubs that it's spent on community and development activities, not paying players.

[_Os_]

I've been to some of those clubs. Only way to integrate them into the structure is as a player pathway for young men, and a coaching pathway at the better clubs. They're too small to function as the highest level below test rugby, unless Wales opts for spreading the cash a lot more thinly over more sides than 4 URC sides.

SA Super Rugby sides struggled before the mid-00s, other than the Sharks. Just not as professional. Ironically the Cats/Lions often produced excellent Boks, it's very easy to spot a quality player in an otherwise poor team. Player development was being done in the national team setup, this weakened the national team. The Bulls were in the cellar back then, they ended up winning titles. All of the original Super Rugby sides did end up making it to multiple finals in the pro era, from a position where only the Sharks could. It took years so wasn't quick or easy, but on some level it is "be more professional" however that's phrased.

Wales need to remake their entire structure. Will take minimum one full RWC cycle. They do have the player resources, they could rebuild in a siloed national side, but that means extreme highs and lows.

They should be as good as Ireland, but the Irish have put a lot of effort into coaching and player skill development. I remember watching Aki playing in Super Rugby, had him in my fantasy side because he was cheap and unnoticed. He was an underrated okay player. The level of value add from whatever coaches have done with him in Ireland is absurd, he wasn't that remarkable in NZ.

That's not what I'm getting at here. I'm saying that the WRU have a much wider responsibility than just the big clubs and pathways and I think it's a much more difficult situation than in most other countries. The small grass roots clubs are rugby clubs, pubs, community centres and the absolute centre of many of these communities, a big proportion of which have changed massively over the last 2 or 3 decades. You can have as many pathways as you want but if these small clubs don't exist or function you have no players. There are very, very limited other ways for kids to play rugby and it's much easier to stick up some goals and get 11 kids to kick a football. If these much derided grassroots clubs disappear, so does rugby.

That's not a reason to subsidise clubs to pay players £50-70k for playing. Someone on that amount should be in a pro squad.

That's crazy. How many pro players do they really have then, 1000?

Very obvious where their problem is then. Get rid of the majority of the players earning over the UK's average salary, invest in some coaching. Until that's fixed the best they can get from the test side will be mirroring the performance of a good URC/Super Rugby side, feast to famine and back again. New players very raw taking a season or two to establish themselves/veterans retiring and leaving huge holes/strong XV but weak squad depth as they're building at national level and need to keep selecting the same players. Just having 1 or 2 decent URC sides would eliminate a lot of turbulence for them. Their real ceiling should be "there's never a bad Wales team" territory.

[inactionman]

I want a top international coaching job – but not Wales, admits Ronan O’Gara

You know it's bad when it's got to this.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/ ... nd-england

[Sandstorm]

I want a top international coaching job – but not Wales, admits Ronan O’Gara

You know it's bad when it's got to this.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/ ... nd-england

ROG is King Troll

[Uncle fester]

That's a proper kick in the teeth.

[ScarfaceClaw]

That's a proper kick in the teeth.

He did caveat it with “… without lacking humility…”.

[C69]

That's a proper kick in the teeth.

He did caveat it with “… without lacking humility…”.

He is a ruddy faced cunt that was the worst Lions player ever, that said why the fuck would he want to have anything to do with that shower of shit that is Wales.

[Uncle fester]

That's a proper kick in the teeth.

He did caveat it with “… without lacking humility…”.

He is a ruddy faced cunt that was the worst Lions player ever, that said why the fuck would he want to have anything to do with that shower of shit that is Wales.

Some of Gatland's picks in the last squad go right to the top of the pile there.

[Yr Alban]

I joined the old PR bored in 2004, when Scotland were in the doldrums. I think there were three other regular posters prepared to admit to being Scottish.

[C69]

He did caveat it with “… without lacking humility…”.

He is a ruddy faced cunt that was the worst Lions player ever, that said why the fuck would he want to have anything to do with that shower of shit that is Wales.

Some of Gatland's picks in the last squad go right to the top of the pile there.

Onan's performance and pea heartedness in that game and that tour to South Africa. Really showed what a cowardly twat he was.

[fishfoodie]

I joined the old PR bored in 2004, when Scotland were in the doldrums. I think there were three other regular posters prepared to admit to being Scottish.

You're right; the Welsh need Matt Williams !!

.... I'm pretty sure he's free, despite being an excellent coach

[Uncle fester]

I joined the old PR bored in 2004, when Scotland were in the doldrums. I think there were three other regular posters prepared to admit to being Scottish.

You're right; the Welsh need Matt Williams !!

.... I'm pretty sure he's free, despite being an excellent coach

Give the Scots even more of a reason to hate them.

[fishfoodie]

I joined the old PR bored in 2004, when Scotland were in the doldrums. I think there were three other regular posters prepared to admit to being Scottish.

You're right; the Welsh need Matt Williams !!

.... I'm pretty sure he's free, despite being an excellent coach

Give the Scots even more of a reason to hate them.

Oh Dog; can you imagine what they'd be like if he was actually successful with the Welsh, instead of just antagonizing everyone within a 10 mile radius

[Torquemada 1420]

Their incomings match the IRFU. They could turn it around if they stopped spaffing the cash away.

Very much this.