20 mph....

[Paddington Bear]

Fwiw I have all but given up cycling after I got knocked off my bike by a woman in a BMW who definitely (though she claimed she hadn’t seen me) swerved into me on a 1 1/2 lane in Jersey. I think in reality she just aimed to scare me and lacked control of the car, by all accounts I did a somersault in the air but all but landed on my feet and only grazed my knee. I was having a pint in the rugby clubhouse an hour later, but left very aware that it was pure luck I hadn’t been seriously injured or killed.

What possesses British drivers to be so aggressive to cyclists I don’t know, but a factor is that the penalties for dangerous driving are so abject that the disincentive is poor. Combine that with a large amount of the lycra brigade are aggressive wankers themselves, of course, but only one set can kill the other in these interactions. Other countries have their issues with cyclists but there is a very British disease of the pure hatred.

We lack a proper joined up cycle infrastructure, and unless and until we see large scale joined up and segregated cycle lanes I’ve no real interest.

[Slick]

Central London shows what can be achieved in the U.K. My commute across town is one of the things I really miss about living there. Cycling in Edinburgh, is absolutely terrible

[shaggy]

My son would love that description

I don't think it's that false. Sporting events cause massive amounts of disruption. Every weekend there are hundreds of road closures for footie up and down the country, but a few cyclists out enjoying themselves are demonised for holding folk up for a few seconds.

I just find the anger towards cyclists so unhinged and disproportionate. Every single time I go out in the car I come across motorists doing really stupid shit that could literally kill someone. But some motorists get held up by seconds and go full tonto about a person on a bike who won't harm anyone but themselves and are often just doing what they are allowed to do.

Further, they are occasional

Well, quite. How often do you get held up on a country road by cyclists and how much longer does it make your journey?

A few things here.
1) If you live near a football stadium, then it's the same as living near an airport: some inconveniences come with the territory and if you really hate it that much, live somewhere else (rarely have people lived there BEFORE the construction). For those just passing through, well, you do have the opportunity to plan in advance. BBC football schedule, local signage and your satnav will tell you often. I went to several games last season and it was a continual joke with my brother why people went shopping around the time at the end of the game and then got annoyed at being stuck in a Lidl car park: we always park a mile away and walk.

You can't plan when you might encounter the mass ranked of militant MAMILs.

2) Hell yeah. There are far more car drivers than cyclists and I'd argue the majority of them (i.e. at least half) should not be on the roads. As I stated earlier, the UK hands out driving licences like confetti. I will avoid an accident at least once a day (and my journey to work is only a few miles) because I've always driven with the assumption that every other driver is a moron and will do the least sensible thing when in my proximity.

But I hate them as much as I hate the militant MAMILs.

But, back to the point, I had no issue with cyclists riding single file on narrow roads as long as they left sensible gaps between themselves if they were out in large numbers. That is not what happened around here and this ludicrous move to allow them to ride n abreast and wherever they like in the lane is simply going to result in more of them being injured or killed. On my Saturday journey to Cranfield, due to the twisting nature of the roads, I will regularly be stuck for a mile at a time. I will wait: because I don't want MAMIL blood on my car or my conscience, but I can tell you very many won't. 2 weeks ago I was within a whisker of a full head-on as a p*ssed off driver decided to overtake a MAMIL convoy on a blind bend. Only avoided because I know the road and the hedge had just been cut so I saw his roof coming.

Do you hate ‘MAMILs’ as much as Tories?

[Guy Smiley]

A lot of finger pointing going on here to excuse poor driver behaviour. At the end of the day you're responsible for operating the machine you're in control of in a safe manner and that includes adapting to suit the conditions present.

You can mount all sorts of semantics around the issue but you can't escape the reality of personal responsibility.

[TB63]

Petition to have it removed now over 400,000..

[Slick]

Petition to have it removed now over 400,000..

Incredibly sad that with all that’s going tits up in the U.K. this is what gets folk riled up. We are fucked

[Biffer]

Petition to have it removed now over 400,000..

3.1 million population in Wales, and I’m prepared to bet a lot of that 400k isn’t from Wales.

[Sandstorm]

Petition to have it removed now over 400,000..

3.1 million population in Wales, and I’m prepared to bet a lot of that 400k isn’t from Wales.

People who live in England drive to Wales.

[salanya]

Petition to have it removed now over 400,000..

Incredibly sad that with all that’s going tits up in the U.K. this is what gets folk riled up. We are fucked

Quite.
Having driven around south Wales this week, the impact isn't half as bad as I expected.

Yes, one or two roads are annoyingly slow for 20, but made worse by people driving 15-18mph rather than 20-22 mph.
As things settle that should improve, and as long as police don't get facetious on policing, it will be fine.

I'm not keen on the blanket 20 mph, but it's definitely not caused the delays people worried about.

[TB63]

Petition to have it removed now over 400,000..

3.1 million population in Wales, and I’m prepared to bet a lot of that 400k isn’t from Wales.

383,561 signatures are registered as living in Wales..
20,503 from England..

[Biffer]

Petition to have it removed now over 400,000..

3.1 million population in Wales, and I’m prepared to bet a lot of that 400k isn’t from Wales.

People who live in England drive to Wales.

Really fucking stupid point.

I drive in America sometimes. I don't get to decide their laws.

That's a little englander / empire attitude. 'People should do what the English do, because the English say so!'

[Biffer]

Petition to have it removed now over 400,000..

3.1 million population in Wales, and I’m prepared to bet a lot of that 400k isn’t from Wales.

383,561 signatures are registered as living in Wales..
20,503 from England..

Yeah, you just need a valid address to out in. How many of them are Cardiff Arms Park do you think?

[TB63]

3.1 million population in Wales, and I’m prepared to bet a lot of that 400k isn’t from Wales.

383,561 signatures are registered as living in Wales..
20,503 from England..

Yeah, you just need a valid address to out in. How many of them are Cardiff Arms Park do you think?

Cynical little shit aren't you? You'd think the people in Wales would sign a petition to show their displeasure at a law they don't like... Open up the petition stats yourself as I can't be arsed to do your work for you, the petitioners are listed by county..

[salanya]

People love a whinge, and it's easy to sign an online petition.

The question is why there aren't more proper protests across the country for the state of the economy, the NHS, the Tory corruption, the abolishing of green policies when half the world is on fire and the other half is flooding.

[Guy Smiley]

People love a whinge, and it's easy to sign an online petition.

The question is why there aren't more proper protests across the country for the state of the economy, the NHS, the Tory corruption, the abolishing of green policies when half the world is on fire and the other half is flooding.

Exactly.

[Sandstorm]

3.1 million population in Wales, and I’m prepared to bet a lot of that 400k isn’t from Wales.

People who live in England drive to Wales.

Really fucking stupid point.

I drive in America sometimes. I don't get to decide their laws.

That's a little englander / empire attitude. 'People should do what the English do, because the English say so!'

Maybe they live in England, work in Wales. Or have a second home there. You really are being hysterical.

[Biffer]

People who live in England drive to Wales.

Really fucking stupid point.

I drive in America sometimes. I don't get to decide their laws.

That's a little englander / empire attitude. 'People should do what the English do, because the English say so!'

Maybe they live in England, work in Wales. Or have a second home there. You really are being hysterical.

Mate, the hysterical ones here are the guys crying about being told to drive a wee bit slower.

[Ymx]

[Paddington Bear]

3.1 million population in Wales, and I’m prepared to bet a lot of that 400k isn’t from Wales.

People who live in England drive to Wales.

Really fucking stupid point.

I drive in America sometimes. I don't get to decide their laws.

That's a little englander / empire attitude. 'People should do what the English do, because the English say so!'

Managing to shoehorn in playing the hits to a 20mph speed limit thread, phenomenal effort

[Brazil]

Having nearly been flattened by some dozy fucker at a zebra crossing this morning, I'm all for lower speed limits. And mandatory birching for dozy fuckers that think zebra crossings are optional.

[inactionman]

3.1 million population in Wales, and I’m prepared to bet a lot of that 400k isn’t from Wales.

People who live in England drive to Wales.

Really fucking stupid point.

I drive in America sometimes. I don't get to decide their laws.

That's a little englander / empire attitude. 'People should do what the English do, because the English say so!'

Jesus Christ.

I'm sat here blowing my cheeks out, almost in admiration at how you've shoehorned your pet whine which is utterly disconnected to the topic in hand.

[Paddington Bear]

Having nearly been flattened by some dozy fucker at a zebra crossing this morning, I'm all for lower speed limits. And mandatory birching for dozy fuckers that think zebra crossings are optional.

Given I need to use one over a dual carriageway coming back from Tesco, I say you are a soft pinko commie and nothing but the death penalty will satisfy for those who don’t stop at zebra crossings

[David in Gwent]

People love a whinge, and it's easy to sign an online petition.

The question is why there aren't more proper protests across the country for the state of the economy, the NHS, the Tory corruption, the abolishing of green policies when half the world is on fire and the other half is flooding.

LOL.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Having nearly been flattened by some dozy fucker at a zebra crossing this morning, I'm all for lower speed limits. And mandatory birching for dozy fuckers that think zebra crossings are optional.

Given I need to use one over a dual carriageway coming back from Tesco, I say you are a soft pinko commie and nothing but the death penalty will satisfy for those who don’t stop at zebra crossings

Too much. As a liberal I think for those running red (or amber) lights, ignoring crossings, pulling out into yellow box grids that aren't clear... the responsible driver should be dragged from the car and have their shins smashed up with baseball bats. I was going to say cricket bats but they're just a bit harder to swing. Treatment will not be available on the NHS for legs broken in the name of natural justice

[Paddington Bear]

Having nearly been flattened by some dozy fucker at a zebra crossing this morning, I'm all for lower speed limits. And mandatory birching for dozy fuckers that think zebra crossings are optional.

Given I need to use one over a dual carriageway coming back from Tesco, I say you are a soft pinko commie and nothing but the death penalty will satisfy for those who don’t stop at zebra crossings

Too much. As a liberal I think for those running red (or amber) lights, ignoring crossings, pulling out into yellow box grids that aren't clear... the responsible driver should be dragged from the car and have their shins smashed up with baseball bats. I was going to say cricket bats but they're just a bit harder to swing. Treatment will not be available on the NHS for legs broken in the name of natural justice

I consider myself a pluralist and this sort of debate to be an intrinsic part of our democratic system. I would prefer the cricket bat approach but will defend to the death your right to use a baseball bat

[Guy Smiley]

You can really get a good swinging rhythm going with a base ball bat…. A cricket bat doesn’t have the same aerodynamic performance.

[Biffer]

You can really get a good swinging rhythm going with a base ball bat…. A cricket bat doesn’t have the same aerodynamic performance.

Yeah, but you can turn it edge on to really make a difference. It's the weapon of an artist - a baseball bat is the weapon of a minion.

[Guy Smiley]

Poof

[Paddington Bear]

You can really get a good swinging rhythm going with a base ball bat…. A cricket bat doesn’t have the same aerodynamic performance.

Has anyone ever looked elegant swinging a baseball bat?

[Biffer]

Poof

No poetry in your soul

[Guy Smiley]

You can really get a good swinging rhythm going with a base ball bat…. A cricket bat doesn’t have the same aerodynamic performance.

Has anyone ever looked elegant swinging a baseball bat?

Armani baby. Classic black suit, white shirt, matching tie. Forehand, backhand.

Simple.
Stylish.
Elegant.

[David in Gwent]

Yep. Fatality rate at 30mph hitting a pedestrian is one in five. At 20mph it's one in twenty.

When not stop there? surely if we cared about deaths on the road we should be driving at 10mph?

Silly, silly comment

it's not though is it, if the objective of the exercise is to save lives, why not drive even slower?

[Hal Jordan]

20 mph zones being consulted on where I live, but the proposed roads are so choked with parked cars you can barely get up to 10 mph before you have to negotiate a passing space with the next oncoming car, so what difference will it make?

[Slick]

When not stop there? surely if we cared about deaths on the road we should be driving at 10mph?

Silly, silly comment

it's not though is it, if the objective of the exercise is to save lives, why not drive even slower?

I can't be bothered with you today so I'll just quote Margin_Walker from earlier in the thread:

Because that would be stupid, as you well know so it's a pretty immature line of argument.

Life's about risk management and striking a good balance. Commerce and quality of life isn't going to grind to a halt with 20mph limits in built up areas and there will likely be a demonstrable reduction of death and serious injury on roads.

[sockwithaticket]

There's absolutely zero point engaging with DiG. Either a troll or a genuine loon who never posts in good faith.

[Sandstorm]

There's absolutely zero point engaging with DiG. Either a troll or a genuine loon who never posts in good faith.

He's DAC, mate. Loon from PR. He's on my (very short) Ignore list

[sockwithaticket]

There's absolutely zero point engaging with DiG. Either a troll or a genuine loon who never posts in good faith.

He's DAC, mate. Loon from PR. He's on my (very short) Ignore list

That makes a lot of sense

[Torquemada 1420]

My son would love that description

I don't think it's that false. Sporting events cause massive amounts of disruption. Every weekend there are hundreds of road closures for footie up and down the country, but a few cyclists out enjoying themselves are demonised for holding folk up for a few seconds.

I just find the anger towards cyclists so unhinged and disproportionate. Every single time I go out in the car I come across motorists doing really stupid shit that could literally kill someone. But some motorists get held up by seconds and go full tonto about a person on a bike who won't harm anyone but themselves and are often just doing what they are allowed to do.



Well, quite. How often do you get held up on a country road by cyclists and how much longer does it make your journey?

A few things here.
1) If you live near a football stadium, then it's the same as living near an airport: some inconveniences come with the territory and if you really hate it that much, live somewhere else (rarely have people lived there BEFORE the construction). For those just passing through, well, you do have the opportunity to plan in advance. BBC football schedule, local signage and your satnav will tell you often. I went to several games last season and it was a continual joke with my brother why people went shopping around the time at the end of the game and then got annoyed at being stuck in a Lidl car park: we always park a mile away and walk.

You can't plan when you might encounter the mass ranked of militant MAMILs.

2) Hell yeah. There are far more car drivers than cyclists and I'd argue the majority of them (i.e. at least half) should not be on the roads. As I stated earlier, the UK hands out driving licences like confetti. I will avoid an accident at least once a day (and my journey to work is only a few miles) because I've always driven with the assumption that every other driver is a moron and will do the least sensible thing when in my proximity.

But I hate them as much as I hate the militant MAMILs.

But, back to the point, I had no issue with cyclists riding single file on narrow roads as long as they left sensible gaps between themselves if they were out in large numbers. That is not what happened around here and this ludicrous move to allow them to ride n abreast and wherever they like in the lane is simply going to result in more of them being injured or killed. On my Saturday journey to Cranfield, due to the twisting nature of the roads, I will regularly be stuck for a mile at a time. I will wait: because I don't want MAMIL blood on my car or my conscience, but I can tell you very many won't. 2 weeks ago I was within a whisker of a full head-on as a p*ssed off driver decided to overtake a MAMIL convoy on a blind bend. Only avoided because I know the road and the hedge had just been cut so I saw his roof coming.

Do you hate ‘MAMILs’ as much as Tories?

Isn't the former a subset of the latter?

[Torquemada 1420]

Why?

This whole reduction in speed is reductio ad absurdum and you've shown no data to indicate that lives saved in going from 20mph to 10mph aren't greater than 30mph to 20mph.

Highlighted the relevant section for you Torq. 10mph would be safer still, but renders cars borderline pointless in towns. 20mph doesn't.

Come on Torq, this is putting you in with DAC

Is that a compliment?

I've been pretty clear on this. I'm totally supportive of safety measures where they are appropriate, demonstrably effective and will be enforced. I'm entirely against politically or economically (paying for the police's Xmas party) motivated, blanket changes/bans.

[Biffer]

Highlighted the relevant section for you Torq. 10mph would be safer still, but renders cars borderline pointless in towns. 20mph doesn't.

Come on Torq, this is putting you in with DAC

Is that a compliment?

I've been pretty clear on this. I'm totally supportive of safety measures where they are appropriate, demonstrably effective and will be enforced. I'm entirely against politically or economically (paying for the police's Xmas party) motivated, blanket changes/bans.

This is a measure that's demonstrably effective.