NPR

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:28 am**

Slick wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:22 am
Jock42 wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 8:30 am
sturginho wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 9:16 pm I'm sure the senior team will also find a way to lose tomorrow
Nah, Italy are a decent team. Should have more than enough to put Wales away again.
We say this, and I hope it’s true, but they did get humped by 100 points 18 months ago

This is true but they also managed to score and someone else got pumped by 43 points a week ago.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:34 am**

Jock42 wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:28 am
Slick wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:22 am
Jock42 wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 8:30 am

Nah, Italy are a decent team. Should have more than enough to put Wales away again.
We say this, and I hope it’s true, but they did get humped by 100 points 18 months ago
This is true but they also managed to score and someone else got pumped by 43 points a week ago.

This is also true. I think they will win

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:35 am**

Slick wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:22 am
Jock42 wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 8:30 am
sturginho wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 9:16 pm I'm sure the senior team will also find a way to lose tomorrow
Nah, Italy are a decent team. Should have more than enough to put Wales away again.
We say this, and I hope it’s true, but they did get humped by 100 points 18 months ago

It’s a fascinating weekend full stop. We’re about to find out a hell of a lot about all three hosting sides. A bit like moving day in a test match

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 11:43 am**

Italy went up against Wales as strong favourites in 2023 and contrived to lose.

Even though they've improved from where they were several years ago, I don't think they're as good as many people want them to be.

They should beat Wales today, but it's by no means a foregone conclusion.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 11:50 am**

SaintK wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:25 am
sockwithaticket wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 11:07 pm Occasionally we get young lads like Pollock who are so undeniably good that their clubs give them the keys to the kingdom at a young age, but there are plenty who just disappear at Prem level when they've been excelling as U20s. It shouldn't be so big a gap and if it is then clubs need to get better at bridging it.

Thinking of a position of low depth like second row, why is Alex Groves now 24 and essentially a ghost? Nominally he's signed up at Sale, but it's practically impossible to find any appearance info on him. Lewis Chessum has 12 appearances for Tigers since 2022 and now at 21 he's being loaned to a Japenese team. That's a cool experience for him to have, so maybe he'd have gone anyway, but why is it so hard for him to get game time here?

There are all sorts of factors that go into whether players kick on, but we see time and time again, whole swathes of names from the U20s never really kick on to Premiership level, let alone anything higher.
Alex Groves played for Sale in the Prem Cup last night. (they lost at home to Doncaster!!)
He nearly died of an aneurism and had open heart surgery 12 months ago.
Looks a bit out of condition but put in a shift

Thought Chessum junior was recovering from a nasty neck injury and the loan to Japan was part of his rehab? He really needs to fill out a bhit like his brother as he still looks lightweight for his size

Fair enough, all I could really find on Grove while googling him last night were articles on his departure from Bristol and his seemingly out of date Sale player profile which listed a mere 4 appearances across his time there. An underlying heart condition definitely explains him.

Those two were just the outstanding examples that sprung to mind. Over the last five years how many U20 second rows have made it at Prem level even? They can't all be unfortunate with health conditions and injuries.

Punter15 wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:08 am
There’s a big difference between age group and playing against the bigger boys. I’m always reminded of that massive unit at Wasps who came through England age group with a bit of fanfare, got his head stuffed up his arse by someone as ordinary as Alex Waller and was never seen again.

There is and I suppose that's part of my point. Why is that and why are we struggling so hard to bridge that gap and bring through these undoubtedly talented players. We'll all have seen the conversion rates with our clubs' academies, they seem pretty woeful. You'd have thought it would be better with the U20 internationals, but other than the occasional exceptional year we seem lucky to get a handful of Prem players out of each cohort, let alone any internationals.

Maybe I'm wrong and there is nothing to be done, age grade/academy pathways just seem quite profligate.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 12:33 pm**

sockwithaticket wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 11:50 am There is and I suppose that's part of my point. Why is that and why are we struggling so hard to bridge that gap and bring through these undoubtedly talented players. We'll all have seen the conversion rates with our clubs' academies, they seem pretty woeful. You'd have thought it would be better with the U20 internationals, but other than the occasional exceptional year we seem lucky to get a handful of Prem players out of each cohort, let alone any internationals.

Maybe I'm wrong and there is nothing to be done, age grade/academy pathways just seem quite profligate.

I wonder how England compare with other nations on player transition from U20 to full international?
I reckon it's down to exposure or lack of it and regular game time opporunity at senior level. There are the odd exeptions to the rule like Fin Smith and Henry Pollock who both p[layed senior rugby in their late teens but theyt are few and far between.
You want to hope the likes of Kpoku (already playing in the T14) and Sodeke (I don't even know who he plays for!) come through as they both look as if the have the physical attributes as do current cohort of young props.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 12:42 pm**

SaintK wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 12:33 pm
sockwithaticket wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 11:50 am There is and I suppose that's part of my point. Why is that and why are we struggling so hard to bridge that gap and bring through these undoubtedly talented players. We'll all have seen the conversion rates with our clubs' academies, they seem pretty woeful. You'd have thought it would be better with the U20 internationals, but other than the occasional exceptional year we seem lucky to get a handful of Prem players out of each cohort, let alone any internationals.

Maybe I'm wrong and there is nothing to be done, age grade/academy pathways just seem quite profligate.
I wonder how England compare with other nations on player transition from U20 to full international?
I reckon it's down to exposure or lack of it and regular game time opporunity at senior level. There are the odd exeptions to the rule like Fin Smith and Henry Pollock who both p[layed senior rugby in their late teens but theyt are few and far between.
You want to hope the likes of Kpoku (already playing in the T14) and Sodeke (I don't even know who he plays for!) come through as they both look as if the have the physical attributes as do current cohort of young props.

Personally I think the step up to full international is huge and not many players are up to it. For some lads the U20s is their international and that's fine. It's a great achievement in itself. Even from U20s to full time pro is a big leap and not all of them can make it, it's really tough.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 12:58 pm**

fishfoodie wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 9:06 pm
Torquemada 1420 wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 8:58 pm
laurent wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 8:55 pm

French seemed to have put some doubt in the English lineout with 2 steals the yellow ended up not costing them much.
Too many dim penalties. Twice for being in front of the kicker is retarded.
How often do they get pinged for it the rest of the year ?

Never but once the ref has signalled he is policing it, then you need to wake up. The Jnocke yellow was bollox. How far is a SH allowed to run before he might be tackled? No way Fra was ever in that game but Kinder should have seen a yellow and the Jnocke one was nonsense. 20 min, 14 player swing.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:03 pm**

sockwithaticket wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 11:50 am There is and I suppose that's part of my point. Why is that and why are we struggling so hard to bridge that gap and bring through these undoubtedly talented players. We'll all have seen the conversion rates with our clubs' academies, they seem pretty woeful. You'd have thought it would be better with the U20 internationals, but other than the occasional exceptional year we seem lucky to get a handful of Prem players out of each cohort, let alone any internationals.

Maybe I'm wrong and there is nothing to be done, age grade/academy pathways just seem quite profligate.

IMHO, there is a dual problem in Eng cw with Fra in this regard:
1) In Eng, players seem selected on the development pathway early and, based on size. Lads develop at different rates anyway but this methodology already excludes many whose potential is never seen.

2) The gap between grade and senior can only be bridged (unless you are Dupont or Penaud) by playing at the higher level and I'll put on the broken record: the Prem does not afford young players the opportunity. Hence you see the likes of Care and Brown still trundling around the parks.

See how many players in Fra bridge that gap. And that's been the case as far back as I can remember to the days of sides that had players like Jean-Jean, Poitrenaud, Grandeclaude and Michalak in them.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:16 pm**

sockwithaticket wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 11:50 am
SaintK wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:25 am
sockwithaticket wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 11:07 pm Occasionally we get young lads like Pollock who are so undeniably good that their clubs give them the keys to the kingdom at a young age, but there are plenty who just disappear at Prem level when they've been excelling as U20s. It shouldn't be so big a gap and if it is then clubs need to get better at bridging it.

Thinking of a position of low depth like second row, why is Alex Groves now 24 and essentially a ghost? Nominally he's signed up at Sale, but it's practically impossible to find any appearance info on him. Lewis Chessum has 12 appearances for Tigers since 2022 and now at 21 he's being loaned to a Japenese team. That's a cool experience for him to have, so maybe he'd have gone anyway, but why is it so hard for him to get game time here?

There are all sorts of factors that go into whether players kick on, but we see time and time again, whole swathes of names from the U20s never really kick on to Premiership level, let alone anything higher.
Alex Groves played for Sale in the Prem Cup last night. (they lost at home to Doncaster!!)
He nearly died of an aneurism and had open heart surgery 12 months ago.
Looks a bit out of condition but put in a shift

Thought Chessum junior was recovering from a nasty neck injury and the loan to Japan was part of his rehab? He really needs to fill out a bhit like his brother as he still looks lightweight for his size
Fair enough, all I could really find on Grove while googling him last night were articles on his departure from Bristol and his seemingly out of date Sale player profile which listed a mere 4 appearances across his time there. An underlying heart condition definitely explains him.

Those two were just the outstanding examples that sprung to mind. Over the last five years how many U20 second rows have made it at Prem level even? They can't all be unfortunate with health conditions and injuries.

Punter15 wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:08 am
There’s a big difference between age group and playing against the bigger boys. I’m always reminded of that massive unit at Wasps who came through England age group with a bit of fanfare, got his head stuffed up his arse by someone as ordinary as Alex Waller and was never seen again.
There is and I suppose that's part of my point. Why is that and why are we struggling so hard to bridge that gap and bring through these undoubtedly talented players. We'll all have seen the conversion rates with our clubs' academies, they seem pretty woeful. You'd have thought it would be better with the U20 internationals, but other than the occasional exceptional year we seem lucky to get a handful of Prem players out of each cohort, let alone any internationals.

Maybe I'm wrong and there is nothing to be done, age grade/academy pathways just seem quite profligate.

As is often the case (though rarely acknowledged), it's Saracens doing England's dirty work again. You appear to have forgotten about a bloke called Itoje. Sodeke is the next one and if course Saracens also spawned the Kpokus.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:37 pm**

SaintK wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 12:33 pm
sockwithaticket wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 11:50 am There is and I suppose that's part of my point. Why is that and why are we struggling so hard to bridge that gap and bring through these undoubtedly talented players. We'll all have seen the conversion rates with our clubs' academies, they seem pretty woeful. You'd have thought it would be better with the U20 internationals, but other than the occasional exceptional year we seem lucky to get a handful of Prem players out of each cohort, let alone any internationals.

Maybe I'm wrong and there is nothing to be done, age grade/academy pathways just seem quite profligate.
I wonder how England compare with other nations on player transition from U20 to full international?
I reckon it's down to exposure or lack of it and regular game time opporunity at senior level. There are the odd exeptions to the rule like Fin Smith and Henry Pollock who both p[layed senior rugby in their late teens but theyt are few and far between.
You want to hope the likes of Kpoku (already playing in the T14) and Sodeke (I don't even know who he plays for!) come through as they both look as if the have the physical attributes as do current cohort of young props.

I'm reading the posts and wondering what all the fuss is about. Majority of our 20's don't even get a pro contract.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:39 pm**

Everyone loves to have their 2p on where England goes wrong. Generally the less they know about English rugby, the more trenchant the opinion.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:41 pm**

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:16 pm As is often the case (though rarely acknowledged), it's Saracens doing England's dirty work again. You appear to have forgotten about a bloke called Itoje. Sodeke is the next one and if course Saracens also spawned the Kpokus.

Hmmm! Saracens are no better at developing young players than a number of other Prem sides.
Itoje last played U20 10 years ago and has done extremely well for England. Older Kpokus buggered off to France as they couldn't get regular game time at Saracens, Junior is in France for family reasons and will hopefully want to continue his England career by moving back. Didn't realise Sodeke was at Sarries, hopefully he'll start to get senior game time there soon and do an Itoje.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:41 pm**

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:39 pm Everyone loves to have their 2p on where England goes wrong. Generally the less they know about English rugby, the more trenchant the opinion.

Given half of England's public schools are in Harlequins catchment area, I know where I'd start looking.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:42 pm**

Immediate validation

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:44 pm**

SaintK wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:41 pm
Kawazaki wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:16 pm As is often the case (though rarely acknowledged), it's Saracens doing England's dirty work again. You appear to have forgotten about a bloke called Itoje. Sodeke is the next one and if course Saracens also spawned the Kpokus.
Hmmm! Saracens are no better at developing young players than a number of other Prem sides.
Itoje last played U20 10 years ago and has done extremely well for England. Older Kpokus buggered off to France as they couldn't get regular game time at Saracens, Junior is in France for family reasons and will hopefully want to continue his England career by moving back. Didn't realise Sodeke was at Sarries, hopefully he'll start to get senior game time there soon and do an Itoje.

And don't forget Isiekwe.

There are some premiership sides that clearly aren't doing their bit to develop England's players. We all know who they are.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:45 pm**

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:42 pm Immediate validation

Look in the mirror sunshine.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:48 pm**

The funny thing is I was absolutely not referring to you in my initial post. You might be a raving psychotic with a dangerous obsession with harlequins, but as an England fan you know more about English rugby than the people I'm talking about. But you are indeed blinded by your obsessive hatred, sadly.

It's the ones who can be relied upon to spout nonsense about the league, the academies, the youth promotion, etc - all completely at odds with reality - that are ever present in these discussions.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:57 pm**

It's true I'm not a fan of Harlequins for the historical payments to players hypocrisy and the general hubris of the chinless wankers who support them (no offence). However, the legacy benefits they continue to receive through the enormous catchment pool has definitely curtailed the development of some serious young talent over the years - most of which none of us will have heard of. Look at what London Irish produced with a tenth of the resources.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:00 pm**

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:44 pm
SaintK wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:41 pm
Kawazaki wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:16 pm As is often the case (though rarely acknowledged), it's Saracens doing England's dirty work again. You appear to have forgotten about a bloke called Itoje. Sodeke is the next one and if course Saracens also spawned the Kpokus.
Hmmm! Saracens are no better at developing young players than a number of other Prem sides.
Itoje last played U20 10 years ago and has done extremely well for England. Older Kpokus buggered off to France as they couldn't get regular game time at Saracens, Junior is in France for family reasons and will hopefully want to continue his England career by moving back. Didn't realise Sodeke was at Sarries, hopefully he'll start to get senior game time there soon and do an Itoje.

And don't forget Isiekwe.

There are some premiership sides that clearly aren't doing their bit to develop England's players. We all know who they are.

I wish I could
Never seen him have a good game for England

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:00 pm**

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:44 pm
SaintK wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:41 pm
Kawazaki wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:16 pm As is often the case (though rarely acknowledged), it's Saracens doing England's dirty work again. You appear to have forgotten about a bloke called Itoje. Sodeke is the next one and if course Saracens also spawned the Kpokus.
Hmmm! Saracens are no better at developing young players than a number of other Prem sides.
Itoje last played U20 10 years ago and has done extremely well for England. Older Kpokus buggered off to France as they couldn't get regular game time at Saracens, Junior is in France for family reasons and will hopefully want to continue his England career by moving back. Didn't realise Sodeke was at Sarries, hopefully he'll start to get senior game time there soon and do an Itoje.

And don't forget Isiekwe.

There are some premiership sides that clearly aren't doing their bit to develop England's players. We all know who they are.

Edit: and Kruis!

Christ, without Saracens, England would be screwed for locks!

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:00 pm**

Yes, we've done this dance before and you've never quite been able to back that up. It wasn't so entertaining that I want to bother repeating it with a man with less integrity than papier mache, though. Have fun howling at the moon!

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:01 pm**

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:57 pm It's true I'm not a fan of Harlequins for the historical payments to players hypocrisy and the general hubris of the chinless wankers who support them (no offence). However, the legacy benefits they continue to receive through the enormous catchment pool has definitely curtailed the development of some serious young talent over the years - most of which none of us will have heard of. Look at what London Irish produced with a tenth of the resources.

Very true.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:05 pm**

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:00 pm Yes, we've done this dance before and you've never quite been able to back that up. It wasn't so entertaining that I want to bother repeating it with a man with less integrity than papier mache, though. Have fun howling at the moon!

Well, if you still believe that Yorkshire farmers and Essex chippies joined Quins simply because they liked the salmon pink shirts then at the very least, you presumably are aware of the huge disparity in the numbers of public schools in the Quins catchment compared to the rest of the league?

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:10 pm**

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:05 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:00 pm Yes, we've done this dance before and you've never quite been able to back that up. It wasn't so entertaining that I want to bother repeating it with a man with less integrity than papier mache, though. Have fun howling at the moon!

Well, if you still believe that Yorkshire farmers and Essex chippies joined Quins simply because they liked the salmon pink shirts then at the very least, you presumably are aware of the huge disparity in the numbers of public schools in the Quins catchment compared to the rest of the league?

You’ve forgotten about the Sarf London scrap metal merchants

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:13 pm**

Worst anthem rendition ever, that's not a good start

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:18 pm**

Wales getting their own back on Scotland for having a player named Huw Jones by fielding Blair Murray.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:36 pm**

Kickathon hard to watch.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:37 pm**

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:36 pm Kickathon hard to watch.

Have you noticed the weather conditions

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:39 pm**

FFS Garbisi

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:39 pm**

Get in there!!!!!

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:39 pm**

Jock42 wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:39 pm FFS Garbisi

Right? Doing his best to get it chalked off!

Scored probably more by luck than judgement, but it was well worked.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:40 pm**

sturginho wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:39 pm Get in there!!!!!

Commentators just giving it the Wales scrum was one plus last week and they get turned and split spart for Italy to then score.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:41 pm**

sockwithaticket wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:39 pm
Jock42 wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:39 pm FFS Garbisi
Right? Doing his best to get it chalked off!

Scored probably more by luck than judgement, but it was well worked.

Don't have to go overboard with a celebration if you're unsure but tried to do Capuozzo right over.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:43 pm**

Italy's monotone kit is minging.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:43 pm**

Too much underwater cam

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:50 pm**

Cannoni is eating the Welsh alive at the breakdown

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:50 pm**

Wales are getting dry humped at the breakdown. The forwards are not playing as a unit and it’s all individual.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:51 pm**

Penalty count against Wales

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:52 pm**

ScarfaceClaw wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:50 pm Wales are getting dry humped at the breakdown. The forwards are not playing as a unit and it’s all individual.

They could try something besides 1 hit-up followed by bad box kick.

NPR

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