NPR

... were NOTHING like this (in the mid-90s)!

I do remember smashing into opposition front rows, and I can't remember if there was more than 'Crouch... engage!' - or if we even had that - but it was much more orderly at the back and we were poised ready to engage, not having to dip at the last nanosecond to avoid a broken neck!

Regale me with your scrummaging stories of yesteryear or more video!

Great topic,

Watching that video the first thing that springs to mind is the time I spent playing in the lower leagues in France in the early 90s, the game was notoriously violent then and I'll come to that later.
re scrums, it wasn't that unusual for the tallonneur/hooker to not bind at all going into a scrum. If he did that you knew he was going to throw upper cuts as soon as the ball was in, which would provoke at least a 16 man brawl, usually with a couple of backs throwing insults at each other.

France is the only place I’ve seen a player sent off twice in a match.

I’m fairness, it was our player

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:43 pm Great topic,

Watching that video the first thing that springs to mind is the time I spent playing in the lower leagues in France in the early 90s, the game was notoriously violent then and I'll come to that later.
re scrums, it wasn't that unusual for the tallonneur/hooker to not bind at all going into a scrum. If he did that you knew he was going to throw upper cuts as soon as the ball was in, which would provoke at least a 16 man brawl, usually with a couple of backs throwing insults at each other.

Binding under was very useful for both that and also swinging into the tunnel if your props were getting the better hand of it. You could get ball back from their 2nd rows feet if you were cheeky enough.

And yea, french rugby was violent back then. Probably the biggest punch fest I've ever played in was against brive in 88/89

I've toured in France 3 times. Twice at U20s and once a senior tour. All between 1988-1992. I enjoyed it immensely and regret not having the confidence and foresight back then to spend a season or two playing and working there (I was offered the chance to play for Villeneuve who were the Agen junior team). It would have been a fantastic life experience and who knows where it would have led.

Ermmmm, pretty much exactly the same… who did you tour down to Agen with?

You're Scottish aren't you?

Not the same tour.

Kawazaki wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:08 pm You're Scottish aren't you?

Not the same tour.

Yes, but grew up just outside London

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:18 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:08 pm You're Scottish aren't you?

Not the same tour.

Yes, but grew up just outside London

What side?

Kawazaki wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:32 pm

Slick wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:18 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:08 pm You're Scottish aren't you?

Not the same tour.

Yes, but grew up just outside London

What side?

Amersham and Chiltern. Or just Chiltern as it was then

No. I'm from the Cambridge side of London.

Did you drink the local 'Perrier' the locals keep in their sheds down there?!

Happyhooker wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:24 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:43 pm Great topic,

Watching that video the first thing that springs to mind is the time I spent playing in the lower leagues in France in the early 90s, the game was notoriously violent then and I'll come to that later.
re scrums, it wasn't that unusual for the tallonneur/hooker to not bind at all going into a scrum. If he did that you knew he was going to throw upper cuts as soon as the ball was in, which would provoke at least a 16 man brawl, usually with a couple of backs throwing insults at each other.

Binding under was very useful for both that and also swinging into the tunnel if your props were getting the better hand of it. You could get ball back from their 2nd rows feet if you were cheeky enough.

And yea, french rugby was violent back then. Probably the biggest punch fest I've ever played in was against brive in 88/89

I played three seasons in France, for the mighty Union Sportive du Plateau du Sault. I had moved there for agricultural fencing contracts and I joined the local village team. It was some of the best times I've had in rugby, no pressure, just hard contests and fun during and after the game.

One game I played in a high ball was put up and it bounced unattended as pretty much 30 players were fighting. Another time I got punched from behind and when I turned around I got kicked up the arse (the kicker got sent off)

I saw refs get assaulted by supporters, one team was banned from playing home games because their supporters had slashed the ref's tyres and broken windows on the opposition team bus.

This was a pretty low level in terms of rugby, but it was full on, especially the Pyrenean cup games, they were terrible. The thing is, I was used to coming off the park covered in rake marks from foot to shoulder in Scotland, I still have some scars now, but it wasn't that common to throw punches. In France it was the opposite, no one rucked properly, but full on brawls were par for the course.

Anyway, I'll get back to scrums in a bit.

That video only goes to confirm my theory that rugby went to shit after 2007.

Brazil wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:43 am That video only goes to confirm my theory that rugby went to shit after 2007.

Missed this, but am keen to hear more! I was thinking 2010 perhaps?

It’s been crap since the millennium I’d say.

So much smoother before then.

Niegs wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:06 pm

Brazil wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:43 am That video only goes to confirm my theory that rugby went to shit after 2007.

Missed this, but am keen to hear more! I was thinking 2010 perhaps?

2007 is when the first major ELVs came in and homogenised the sport for a while, plus made everyone more negative especially with the kicking game. It was a sea change in how teams approached the sport.

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:34 pm

Niegs wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:06 pm

Brazil wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:43 am That video only goes to confirm my theory that rugby went to shit after 2007.

Missed this, but am keen to hear more! I was thinking 2010 perhaps?

2007 is when the first major ELVs came in and homogenised the sport for a while, plus made everyone more negative especially with the kicking game. It was a sea change in how teams approached the sport.

When did "getting the rucks in right place" and "playing in the right parts of the pitch" become commonplace? I recently watched Blues v Crusaders from 2004, and it seemed quite chaotic compared to the structured play of today.

Niegs wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:33 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:34 pm

Niegs wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:06 pm

Missed this, but am keen to hear more! I was thinking 2010 perhaps?

2007 is when the first major ELVs came in and homogenised the sport for a while, plus made everyone more negative especially with the kicking game. It was a sea change in how teams approached the sport.

When did "getting the rucks in right place" and "playing in the right parts of the pitch" become commonplace? I recently watched Blues v Crusaders from 2004, and it seemed quite chaotic compared to the structured play of today.

Pretty soon after that - the 2009 Lions tour certainly had plenty of that shit.

JM2K6 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:34 pm

Niegs wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:06 pm

Brazil wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:43 am That video only goes to confirm my theory that rugby went to shit after 2007.

Missed this, but am keen to hear more! I was thinking 2010 perhaps?

2007 is when the first major ELVs came in and homogenised the sport for a while, plus made everyone more negative especially with the kicking game. It was a sea change in how teams approached the sport.

This. Or rather wasn't it 2008 when they came in?

Seems most non-safety law changes since have been trying to undo the damage the ELV impact had on the game.

Those French scrums are shite!! Pushing too high, walking around and no ball control.

We had better technique in high school in the 80s

Brazil wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:43 am That video only goes to confirm my theory that rugby went to shit after 2007.

Crouch - touch - pause - collapse?

None of them result in a penalty which is a main thing. The game has been screwed since the scrums became a contest for a penalty not the ball.

Had a brilliant (or not...) idea on my walk today.

* At each scrum you can have a maximum of one reset. If it needs a second reset then it becomes uncontested
* If the ref is sure one side is at fault, it's a free kick to the other side. However, the scrum option for that free kick is an uncontested scrum 5m forward.
* If that 5m crosses the tryline, it's a penalty try.

Niegs wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:06 pm

Brazil wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:43 am That video only goes to confirm my theory that rugby went to shit after 2007.

Missed this, but am keen to hear more! I was thinking 2010 perhaps?

I'm not being entirely serious, but there's a sea-change after the 2007 world cup when the last of the amateurs finish their careers. Basically rugby was evolving but still largley recognisable compared to the amateur game from 1997-2007, after which it became tactically overburdened, defensively focused, with farcical scrums and rucks, played mostly by overmuscled pituitary retards smashing into one another for 80 minutes.

Obviously both Sale and England being gash may have coloured my perception somewhat.

Brazil wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:22 am

Niegs wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:06 pm

Brazil wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:43 am That video only goes to confirm my theory that rugby went to shit after 2007.

Missed this, but am keen to hear more! I was thinking 2010 perhaps?

I'm not being entirely serious, but there's a sea-change after the 2007 world cup when the last of the amateurs finish their careers. Basically rugby was evolving but still largley recognisable compared to the amateur game from 1997-2007, after which it became tactically overburdened, defensively focused, with farcical scrums and rucks, played mostly by overmuscled pituitary retards smashing into one another for 80 minutes.

Obviously both Sale and England being gash may have coloured my perception somewhat.

I reckon you're spot on about 2007 being the cut off when the last of the old amateurs finally retired. You can imagine many of them hung on for that RWC. It also seems to coincide with when England last had any decent captain material still playing and the introduction of the gym gobshite template player - Haskell.

Kawazaki wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:07 pm

Brazil wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:22 am

Niegs wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:06 pm

Missed this, but am keen to hear more! I was thinking 2010 perhaps?

I'm not being entirely serious, but there's a sea-change after the 2007 world cup when the last of the amateurs finish their careers. Basically rugby was evolving but still largley recognisable compared to the amateur game from 1997-2007, after which it became tactically overburdened, defensively focused, with farcical scrums and rucks, played mostly by overmuscled pituitary retards smashing into one another for 80 minutes.

Obviously both Sale and England being gash may have coloured my perception somewhat.

I reckon you're spot on about 2007 being the cut off when the last of the old amateurs finally retired. You can imagine many of them hung on for that RWC. It also seems to coincide with when England last had any decent captain material still playing and the introduction of the gym gobshite template player - Haskell.

Related to your point on captains, do you have thoughts as to why that might be so? There were so many leaders in that 03 team, especially.

I wonder if more players in the amateur / early pro days had experienced rugby without that much 'coaching', whereas now they seem to be told to 'do it exactly this way' and 'follow this pattern of play'. (I attended a session with someone who's worked with England under Eddie and he said there were a few players who really didn't want to think for themselves, as he was preaching, preferring to be told exactly what to do.)

Niegs wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:47 am

Kawazaki wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:07 pm

Brazil wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:22 am

I'm not being entirely serious, but there's a sea-change after the 2007 world cup when the last of the amateurs finish their careers. Basically rugby was evolving but still largley recognisable compared to the amateur game from 1997-2007, after which it became tactically overburdened, defensively focused, with farcical scrums and rucks, played mostly by overmuscled pituitary retards smashing into one another for 80 minutes.

Obviously both Sale and England being gash may have coloured my perception somewhat.

I reckon you're spot on about 2007 being the cut off when the last of the old amateurs finally retired. You can imagine many of them hung on for that RWC. It also seems to coincide with when England last had any decent captain material still playing and the introduction of the gym gobshite template player - Haskell.

Related to your point on captains, do you have thoughts as to why that might be so? There were so many leaders in that 03 team, especially.

I wonder if more players in the amateur / early pro days had experienced rugby without that much 'coaching', whereas now they seem to be told to 'do it exactly this way' and 'follow this pattern of play'. (I attended a session with someone who's worked with England under Eddie and he said there were a few players who really didn't want to think for themselves, as he was preaching, preferring to be told exactly what to do.)

Yes, I think (some) coaches are terrible for diminishing players ability to think for themselves. From accounts we've heard, Eddie Jones is likely one of the worst at doing this. What sickens me most about Jones though is that he'll tell soft interviewers the complete opposite, that he likes players to think for themselves, he's just an enabler, the facilitator etc to help the players to think for themselves, play heads-up rugby and make the right decisions etc when, to anyone who knows a bit about the game can see, his England team are micro-managed in just about every facet of play and God help any player who goes off script.