NPR

Last 4 red cards in T14 have all been Fijians
- Dyer for BO
- Manu and Vatubua in the same game for Pau
- Botitu for Castres

then I saw we had Naulago off for Bristol yesterday.

Bad technique? Too much testosterone?

I didn't see the other one's but Naulago's was the sort of hit you see among many players in League and NZ rugby (which I watch more of than Aus). Going for the big hit. Standing tall, using power base to launch a shoulder, bring the arms around just as contact is made. The WR recommendations to avoid this sort of thing (in their concussion research) involves bending at the waist. You can't mandate it though, so it's up to players and coaches to be more aware of the risks.

Even were defenders are being bumped off here, you see them standing tall and square rather than trying to take a big man from the side.

The "offensive hit" is certainly part of the problem. The Vatubua was just really dangerous and resulted in Chocobares going to hospital. Haven't seen the outcome but should be a long ban.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:06 pm Last 4 red cards in T14 have all been Fijians
- Dyer for BO
- Manu and Vatubua in the same game for Pau
- Botitu for Castres

then I saw we had Naulago off for Bristol yesterday.

Bad technique? Too much testosterone?

That was in the first half of his first match back from a 3 week ban for exactly the same thing!!!
Should imagine it will be the full 6 week sanction this time

SaintK wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:33 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:06 pm Last 4 red cards in T14 have all been Fijians
- Dyer for BO
- Manu and Vatubua in the same game for Pau
- Botitu for Castres

then I saw we had Naulago off for Bristol yesterday.

Bad technique? Too much testosterone?

That was in the first half of his first match back from a 3 week ban for exactly the same thing!!!
Should imagine it will be the full 6 week sanction this time

How thick?

SaintK wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:33 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:06 pm Last 4 red cards in T14 have all been Fijians
- Dyer for BO
- Manu and Vatubua in the same game for Pau
- Botitu for Castres

then I saw we had Naulago off for Bristol yesterday.

Bad technique? Too much testosterone?

That was in the first half of his first match back from a 3 week ban for exactly the same thing!!!
Should imagine it will be the full 6 week sanction this time

Especially as he had his earlier ban reduced to two games because he agreed to complete a World Rugby training programme on tackling which is intended to change the player’s behaviour and reduce the risk of injury.

As his red card offence was virtually a carbon copy of his previous red card, it seems he didn't learn much from the training programme.

Lobby wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:41 pm

SaintK wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:33 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:06 pm Last 4 red cards in T14 have all been Fijians
- Dyer for BO
- Manu and Vatubua in the same game for Pau
- Botitu for Castres

then I saw we had Naulago off for Bristol yesterday.

Bad technique? Too much testosterone?

That was in the first half of his first match back from a 3 week ban for exactly the same thing!!!
Should imagine it will be the full 6 week sanction this time

Especially as he had his earlier ban reduced to two games because he agreed to complete a World Rugby training programme on tackling which is intended to change the player’s behaviour and reduce the risk of injury.

As his red card offence was virtually a carbon copy of his previous red card, it seems he didn't learn much from the training programme.

Exactly the same as Jacob Umaga. Red carded for staying upright in the tackle, 3 weeks minus 1 if he takes the course. First or second game back does the exact same thing. Only copped 5 weeks the second time round, though, which did surprise me a touch.

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:45 pm

Lobby wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:41 pm

SaintK wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:33 pm
That was in the first half of his first match back from a 3 week ban for exactly the same thing!!!
Should imagine it will be the full 6 week sanction this time

Especially as he had his earlier ban reduced to two games because he agreed to complete a World Rugby training programme on tackling which is intended to change the player’s behaviour and reduce the risk of injury.

As his red card offence was virtually a carbon copy of his previous red card, it seems he didn't learn much from the training programme.

Exactly the same as Jacob Umaga. Red carded for staying upright in the tackle, 3 weeks minus 1 if he takes the course. First or second game back does the exact same thing. Only copped 5 weeks the second time round, though, which did surprise me a touch.

Looks like we need to be heading towards significant extended sanctions for repeat offenders. Rugby looking daft yet again on player safety.

Kinda unrelated but Lavanini has been playing well for ASM and yet to receive a red!

What effect does suspension have on a player’s wages?

GogLais wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:53 pm What effect does suspension have on a player’s wages?

I've always wondered that.
I'd have thought that there would be a clause in the players contract about availibility to play?

Marylandolorian wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:32 pm

SaintK wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:05 pm

GogLais wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:53 pm What effect does suspension have on a player’s wages?

I've always wondered that.
I'd have thought that there would be a clause in the players contract about availibility to play?

Wondered the same mainly after seeing a team losing a game because that.
It used to be that they didn’t get a bonus when they didn’t play.

I’ll like to know if the rules and policies are the same depending on the leagues or even the clubs.

Like it would make a difference. Clubs would simply circumvent by paying through the back door just like salary caps.

SaintK wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:05 pm

GogLais wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:53 pm What effect does suspension have on a player’s wages?

I've always wondered that.
I'd have thought that there would be a clause in the players contract about availibility to play?

Do they still get extra in matchday fees? If so they probably just lose that and maybe a fine if there is some code of conduct.

Big D wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:15 am

SaintK wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:05 pm

GogLais wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:53 pm What effect does suspension have on a player’s wages?

I've always wondered that.
I'd have thought that there would be a clause in the players contract about availibility to play?

Do they still get extra in matchday fees? If so they probably just lose that and maybe a fine if there is some code of conduct.

To be business like about it I understand that clubs might accept that suspensions are one of those things that happen and players have tread a narrow line if they want to win. So I guess my question relates more to persistent offenders and/or totally stupid offences,

SaintK wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:33 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:06 pm Last 4 red cards in T14 have all been Fijians
- Dyer for BO
- Manu and Vatubua in the same game for Pau
- Botitu for Castres

then I saw we had Naulago off for Bristol yesterday.

Bad technique? Too much testosterone?

That was in the first half of his first match back from a 3 week ban for exactly the same thing!!!
Should imagine it will be the full 6 week sanction this time

Ben Kay did an interesting snippet on this in the BT highlights - basically the winger stepping in to take someone running in to out into their channel is pretty static and ultimately has to drive upwards to generate any force into the tackle. This is what Naulago did - twice - and ended up chinning the runner. Kay was saying that the only realistic way to tackle safely was to make a more passive wrap tackle and pull them down more than blast them back. Seeing as he wasn't near the tryline in either case - where you'd understand an ambition to drive the player back and not lose any yards - it seems like there's a change in mindset needed.

eta: they've put the clip up on twitter:
https://twitter.com/btsportrugby/status ... 0429750276

I'm not sure the footage of the Naulago tackle backs him up there. You can generate force without being upright - Naulago is never trying to bend at the waist. It's one thing to be bent at the waist and hit slightly upwards to generate power, it's another to do so from an upright position to begin with.

Not sure I agree that it's easier to tackle hard like that anyway. Seen plenty of big hits from very tall guys like Esterhuizen when they've managed to dip and drive despite tackling someone coming back on an angle.

JM2K6 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:27 am I'm not sure the footage of the Naulago tackle backs him up there. You can generate force without being upright - Naulago is never trying to bend at the waist. It's one thing to be bent at the waist and hit slightly upwards to generate power, it's another to do so from an upright position to begin with.

Not sure I agree that it's easier to tackle hard like that anyway. Seen plenty of big hits from very tall guys like Esterhuizen when they've managed to dip and drive despite tackling someone coming back on an angle.

One of the issues he highlights is the rapid closing of space - he's upright, he can't easily turn back in, get low and drive low given the short space of time. It's more likely he'll turn in and drive high and up. It's not that you can't get low, it's just that it's a situation where you're more likely to get it wrong.

I'd agree Naugolo seems to more prone to it than others, which tells us something - namely, he needs to sort this out.

inactionman wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:45 am

JM2K6 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:27 am I'm not sure the footage of the Naulago tackle backs him up there. You can generate force without being upright - Naulago is never trying to bend at the waist. It's one thing to be bent at the waist and hit slightly upwards to generate power, it's another to do so from an upright position to begin with.

Not sure I agree that it's easier to tackle hard like that anyway. Seen plenty of big hits from very tall guys like Esterhuizen when they've managed to dip and drive despite tackling someone coming back on an angle.

One of the issues he highlights is the rapid closing of space - he's upright, he can't easily turn back in, get low and drive low given the short space of time. It's more likely he'll turn in and drive high and up. It's not that you can't get low, it's just that it's a situation where you're more likely to get it wrong.

I'd agree Naugolo seems to more prone to it than others, which tells us something - namely, he needs to sort this out.

Well that's the thing - he can easily do it. He can do it as part of the steps he takes. But he doesn't. He starts off upright, steps in upright, hits upright. No actual effort made. No good reason why he couldn't have aimed lower. He wanted to make an upright tackle so he did it.

It's not like he's been stepped - he's actually slightly crouched and waiting for the pass so he can spring across.

JM2K6 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 11:15 am

inactionman wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:45 am

JM2K6 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:27 am I'm not sure the footage of the Naulago tackle backs him up there. You can generate force without being upright - Naulago is never trying to bend at the waist. It's one thing to be bent at the waist and hit slightly upwards to generate power, it's another to do so from an upright position to begin with.

Not sure I agree that it's easier to tackle hard like that anyway. Seen plenty of big hits from very tall guys like Esterhuizen when they've managed to dip and drive despite tackling someone coming back on an angle.

One of the issues he highlights is the rapid closing of space - he's upright, he can't easily turn back in, get low and drive low given the short space of time. It's more likely he'll turn in and drive high and up. It's not that you can't get low, it's just that it's a situation where you're more likely to get it wrong.

I'd agree Naugolo seems to more prone to it than others, which tells us something - namely, he needs to sort this out.

Well that's the thing - he can easily do it. He can do it as part of the steps he takes. But he doesn't. He starts off upright, steps in upright, hits upright. No actual effort made. No good reason why he couldn't have aimed lower. He wanted to make an upright tackle so he did it.

It's not like he's been stepped - he's actually slightly crouched and waiting for the pass so he can spring across.

To be fair to him, the runner is trying to get him to either fix or drift, so the runner either cuts or passes. He should commit at last possible second to try to catch runner with ball in hand.

But he could make a better fist of it, undoubtedly.

Usual proviso - I’m not an expert. I saw a case last season where attackers and defenders lined up close to each other, somebody is passed the ball when a couple of feet away from and directly opposite a defender. The tackler had no chance of either lowering himself or getting side on and was carded. Might have been a red. Seemed totally unfair to me, it looked as though all he could legally do was let the ball carrier run over him,
I realise the example being discussed mightn’t be the same.

GogLais wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:38 pm Usual proviso - I’m not an expert. I saw a case last season where attackers and defenders lined up close to each other, somebody is passed the ball when a couple of feet away from and directly opposite a defender. The tackler had no chance of either lowering himself or getting side on and was carded. Might have been a red. Seemed totally unfair to me, it looked as though all he could legally do was let the ball carrier run over him,
I realise the example being discussed mightn’t be the same.

There are clear instances of refs getting it wrong too e.g. the Joseph red for Fra in the U20s game against Sco.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:44 pm

GogLais wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:38 pm Usual proviso - I’m not an expert. I saw a case last season where attackers and defenders lined up close to each other, somebody is passed the ball when a couple of feet away from and directly opposite a defender. The tackler had no chance of either lowering himself or getting side on and was carded. Might have been a red. Seemed totally unfair to me, it looked as though all he could legally do was let the ball carrier run over him,
I realise the example being discussed mightn’t be the same.

There are clear instances of refs getting it wrong too e.g. the Joseph red for Fra in the U20s game against Sco.

In fairness to refs you hear them going through possible mitigations and it seem as though the ball carrier receiving the ball very late and very close to the tackler isn’t one.

GogLais wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:53 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:44 pm

GogLais wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:38 pm Usual proviso - I’m not an expert. I saw a case last season where attackers and defenders lined up close to each other, somebody is passed the ball when a couple of feet away from and directly opposite a defender. The tackler had no chance of either lowering himself or getting side on and was carded. Might have been a red. Seemed totally unfair to me, it looked as though all he could legally do was let the ball carrier run over him,
I realise the example being discussed mightn’t be the same.

There are clear instances of refs getting it wrong too e.g. the Joseph red for Fra in the U20s game against Sco.

In fairness to refs you hear them going through possible mitigations and it seem as though the ball carrier receiving the ball very late and very close to the tackler isn’t one.

Lack of force would be expected there, mind

JM2K6 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 1:31 pm

GogLais wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:53 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:44 pm
There are clear instances of refs getting it wrong too e.g. the Joseph red for Fra in the U20s game against Sco.

In fairness to refs you hear them going through possible mitigations and it seem as though the ball carrier receiving the ball very late and very close to the tackler isn’t one.

Lack of force would be expected there, mind

Maybe sometimes then all a tackler can legally do is act as a sleeping policeman.

JM2K6 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:27 am I'm not sure the footage of the Naulago tackle backs him up there. You can generate force without being upright - Naulago is never trying to bend at the waist. It's one thing to be bent at the waist and hit slightly upwards to generate power, it's another to do so from an upright position to begin with.

Not sure I agree that it's easier to tackle hard like that anyway. Seen plenty of big hits from very tall guys like Esterhuizen when they've managed to dip and drive despite tackling someone coming back on an angle.

My thoughts too. Especially on a ball carrier who's a bit upright, you can put a shoulder in the midsection and fold him.

And am with the many commenters below the BT Sport clip saying the Davies one should have been straight red. Made no attempt to bend, Ford barely had moved. Some refs just want to be nice guys and twist themselves to find mitigation.